Valen romance

[Schatten]

I am with Auvrin here.

Blushing and "puts hand in front of mouth and laughs" is not the Valen i imagine. some of your dialogs are too "good heartet" for Valen, imo.

[Guest]

I was reading some of this thread, and I was thinking about something. I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned or not, but could Valen make the PC a vampire or currupt him/her? I mean if we're talking about someone redeeming Valen, why not the other way around?

It might be a cool thought, and a reason for a good party to take her on. There could be the chance of redeeming her, but the PC could just as easily fall from grace himself.
 

[Nirvana]

I was reading some of this thread, and I was thinking about something. I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned or not, but could Valen make the PC a vampire or currupt him/her? I mean if we're talking about someone redeeming Valen, why not the other way around?

It might be a cool thought, and a reason for a good party to take her on. There could be the chance of redeeming her, but the PC could just as easily fall from grace himself.

that sounds very intriguing ... i'd play it ... would be interesting to see the pc corrupted as it is in game that the pc is always the one who corrupts others so ...

[Auvrin]

Corrupting a PC would require them to be good or neutral.  In other words there is no real point in it seeing as Valen was meant for evil parties.

[Nirvana]

Corrupting a PC would require them to be good or neutral.  In other words there is no real point in it seeing as Valen was meant for evil parties.

yeah , exactly was meant and not has to be in bad parties

[Jerr]

People keep seeming to forget that it would just be an OPTION. Same with any kind of redemption, if the OPTION was added to the mod, that doesn't mean you HAVE to romance her or try to redeem her. Why simply because you wouldn't do it should you try to prevent options that would increase the otherall interest in and gaming pleasure of other Valen mod users? But anyway, all of this is moot since authors write and creators write/create for themselves, and if the creator of this mod is happy with how it is now well then thats that. I played through evil once, Valen has alot of promise, and alot of avenues to continue to explore her character and relationship with the PC and her (EX?)Mistress.

Personally before this Mod Valen never really interest me that much, now Mook on the otherhand I had always wished I could save her, heh I tried over and over again to prevent her death the first time i played though, and now that ive learned how to script and ive gone in and read the scripts, they cheated! She just Dies().  Anyway so ive put a change to that, ive added the OPTION where I can prevent her death if I act fast enough, and even have her join my party. If you liked watching mook die can you still let her die, yes..... simply because its there doesn't mean you have to take advantage of it.

Right now im working on what she is gonna say to her (ex?) boss when we report back to him....
 

[Jerr]

what I wouldn't give for an edit button....

But about the corrupting a PC, you mean somehow Valen is going to have a more corrupting influence then the taint of Bhaal? I guess its possible, but I don't see it as very likely. I think someone who has been successfully living and overcoming the taint of Bhaal for their entire life would probably be able to deal with something as simple as a vampire's mind games. Though of course refering back to my previous post, nothing wrong with adding OPTIONS to the mod for people who want to take advantage of them.

[Cybersquirt]

(you get the 'edit' button when you're logged in using a registered name)

[reiella]

what I wouldn't give for an edit button....

But about the corrupting a PC, you mean somehow Valen is going to have a more corrupting influence then the taint of Bhaal? I guess its possible, but I don't see it as very likely. I think someone who has been successfully living and overcoming the taint of Bhaal for their entire life would probably be able to deal with something as simple as a vampire's mind games. Though of course refering back to my previous post, nothing wrong with adding OPTIONS to the mod for people who want to take advantage of them.

Not so much more corrupting than the Taint of Bhaal, just think of it as synergestic.

It's also potential for her to approach the corruption in a manner different from how the Protagonist has been facing the beast in the past.

Thing about options, is that they still redefine the character.  Which is where the problem comes down to, and I really agree that Valen should be kept as an evil psychopathic killer, to do elsewise, cheapens her.

[The Leveler]

Valen needs a romance. I am in Ch. 6, and the only Valen specific dialoges are when she talks with an NPC, usually just before she slaughters them. A romance, and some banter would be nice. She mkay be an evil pyscho vampire, but she may, at least a higher levels, want association with someother biengs who are *close* to her power level.

[Auvrin]

Valen needs a romance.

No she doesn't.

She just needs more interjections, banters, and story building dialogue with the PC, none of which -needs- a romance to accomplish.

[Talia Brie]

I'm with you Auv. No romance, but more banters and more depth of character.

[boo&minsc]

first of all i must confess i haven't read most of the replies... there are more than 200!!! i already lost half afternoon to give my opinion to the balancing thread... lol
btw, english isn't my native tongue... so :rolleyes:

arrrrgghhh... finally jerr said it all... i thought i was the only one to see it that way...
these are only options!!!! ROLEPLAY... ROLE PLAYING GAME how many times is required to say it?
for (; { ROLEPLAY... THIS IS A ROLE PLAYING GAME }
you aren't forced to follow this path... you don't have to romance her, to de-vamp her...

almost everyone posted their opinion on if she would romance/ de-vamp /stay-the-same because of this or that... any role player can find a storyline that justifies it... heck, i bet 2 or 3 people here could even get a story for Valen to de-vamp and turn into a priest or cleric...(i know i am... and i don't even play p&p games) -g- stop being so biased

although i don't entirely agree with the plot, the medal sure goes to Aroc, it seems he was the only one that wrote some new options(only text for now) for the mod... making it more roleplayable for some people... if you don't like it, don't play it... or better yet... choose the dialog options you find fitting for you Charname




now for the real content... what is really needed in the mod, as for role playing sake :

give her more interjections and banters... these can/should be a plentora of them... AND they should be different from Charname aligment
A ) "i admire your power & brutality Charname... you'll make a God a thousand times more worthy of the title Lord of Murder than your father" - Sarevok pops in and "bahh... he's a weakling... just let me get my chance"
B ) "your good deeds just make me sick... maybe we need to change things here... Edwin, care for a conspiracy plan?" - also possible, she could attack you; only stopping after below X HP


(remember! role play! for crying out loud)
the interesting thing in the paths bellow is that you can get to choose from more than one 'ending' based on your aligment; since there is the duality of good/evil/neutral and lawfull/chaotic/true)

abuse her - you are an EVIL aligned bastard(you killed kenny lol )
there's no love in this. you find her atractive and want a brutal sex relation with her... you abuse her, rape her, et cetera... treat her like garbage and she loves it
- a possibility also: you abuse her too much and she steels(magic, enraged bite, you put it here to justify that) 2 CON to you. and you can only get those 2 CON back by killing her. hey? now this is roleplay.... the funny thing is the gamer will try to know what/when he did wrong for him not to loose 2 CON, and reload an older saved game, lol... but the event has long occured
ohhh... and of course the PC doesn't know how to get those 2 CON back... even better: if she steels those 2 CON and the PC kills her, PC gets 3 CON (this weakens the option of the player loading a previous saved game and dump her before & strenghens your evilness... chaotic evil change anyone? )
if you treat her like garbage(but not abusively) she bites you... granting some vamp powers to you; i don't know... maybe immune to level drain or perm negative plane protection (TG Maestro rebalancing needed here ) this happens before it's usability disappers(this is, no sense in giving negative plane protection when no more enemies are going to level drain you) but if you screw up in the next dialogs you lose that ability forever and Valen may or may not leave the party for good

seduce her - you are NEUTRAL
as the aligment suggest it, you would have to be nice one day and rough the other... but you're the one in charge
her alignment would change to "CHAOTIC NEUTRAL" maybe?
on a crazy night you kiss-bite her and drink a tiny bit of her blood, gaining immunity to poison and disease maybe? (im not sure if the poison-disease imu happens in ToB, if so: change it)

be seduced by her - you are NEUTRAL
encore, but since she's the one in charge your aligment would change to EVIL
Valen - "are you really interested in me? do you find me exciting? lustfull?"
PC - "yes... blahblah.." 'charname kisses Valen'
'while kissing Valen bites you' 'you perm lost 10 HP' 'Valen perm gained 10 HP'
Valen - "i know can trust you.. you have proven yourself to me"

redeem her - GOODie hero / male or female
you always say the right thing, dont give her space for evilness(no more biting)... ask about her past, try to understand and give a new vision to her... fight a wicked(very difficult) 1-on-1 battle for her, letting her see the goodness of living kind lol

romance her - you always loved strange relations... CHAOS is your random middle name
you're crazy... you follow your hormones hehehe
your replies to her are almost random... sometimes you let her kill, sometimes not
but at the same time always transmit some interest in her
you are romancing her... but is she really romancing you?
you dont get no special ability/feat... and at one battle(why not a 'family' vamp reunion) she turns against you...
if you kill the enemies and forgive her: she really starts romancing you (but doesnt stop being evil or killing some innocents)
if you dont forgive her: romance is over... or the fake/hollow/cinic romance continues

de-vamp(redeem is included) & romance her - GOODie hero with hormones on fire
this should certainly be the hardest(battle aspect) and most difficult(banter aspect) of all the paths... i talked about role play above, but... i think we all agree that de-vamping ain't the same as changing aligment... it's a lot harder from a fiction point of view (i understood as de-vamp to stop being a vampire)... you're changing race... and living status! lol
you can redeem someone by talking, romance by talking, but to de-vamp... some uber magic must come at reach... a major hard battle is required... something like... a kangaxx & friends... lol... i don't know exactly, but it should be very hard
IMO the de-vamp should only happens in ToB and it's not obligatory(you could only redeem and romance her)
a wicked dialog path must be taken for this to work. you love her and are trying to redeem her... but OTOH you cant see her suffer and so let her have a snack (and since you're good, -2 rep each time you let her bite someone)
after de-vamping she changes aligment to NEUTRAL + Charname modifier & she would keep most of her powers, loose some and gain others (ex: loose the drain level and negative plane protection; +20% slash/bash/pierce resist)
Charname would gain also... hmmm...? immunity to fear? or maybe mind spells? 'you dont fear nothing... you don't move an inch to achive your goals... nothing, neither nobody can change your mind/will because your heart has a place with Valen... you know you are safe with her'




phiiuuu... this sure steels some time... -g- i hope it will have some use... lol

we all know that nobody is going to implement all this... there are a bunch-o-rama of possible dialog and events able to happen for this to be a positive 'upgrade' to the mod... but if someone(or several groups of someones) writes the dialogs and estipulates the events for things to happen(like Aroc did), great of the work is cutted out... leaving only the programming (i never modded, but i think that having the dialogs and events defined; it won't be that hard or a massive work load)
but still, some modder would have to be interested in doing it, and i doubt Weimer as the time for it

 

[WatcherDarkfox]

I've not read all the posts in this thread, ehh, so sue me I'm lazy...  

At one point I was designing a mod... unfortunatly real life put that on hold... and I'm not sure if I've got the paitence to get back to it any time soon... grrr

Well here's my view on this, don't get angry with me it's just an opinion, and you know what they say about those don't ya? Ya know, everyone's got one and all?

Right, Valen is evil, no doubting that, to have Valen in your party you must aslo be evil, hence embracing your true nature, I feel romance as in a pink haze love is seriously out of the question, it's not possable, but as a person who's palyed an evil character in on-line RPG's I've seen that a dark, twisted form of love can be done in context and effectivly.

Lets see... you've just fought a really hard, long drawn out battle, the body count from which doesn't have to be high, just difficult, blood is pumping, adrenaline has risen and Valen and the Evil PC are basking in the empowering feeling that comes with wholesale slaughter on this degree, Valen then looks at you with a predatory gaze and proceeds to pounce you and pin you up against the nearest wall... as the two begin to claw and tear into each other (In a good way of course) the rest of the party bring them back to their sences, although Valen being evil wouldn't be embarrassed by this, there would be strange, changed manner about her, being more wary of the PC for a time, then with time, the two could become closer. (but again not with what could be considered typically romantic dialouge, it could be something as twisted as a flip sarcastic comment here, a snide remark there. All the time making it obvious the two are comming closer to each other without being an out and out romance. (I personally don't think evil characters would react well to normal courses of romance but would over a more subtle amount of time 'grow' on each other.)

Well that's my two pennies worth, bad grammar/spelling and all... enjoy    

[Jurgenaut]

[I haven't read the whole thread so if I say something that's already been said.. dun flame me ]

Everyone is all about lets redeem the vampire! (the same vampire who ate Valygar the only time I tried her in the party )
If I'm evil enough to pick her up and have her in the team, why not drive the "romance" on a different track. Why not have her vampirize you? A vampiric bhaalspawn, with boosted stats and allergy to daylight. Maybe it wouldn't be as much a "romance" thing, but you using her to increase your power (evil evil!).
Of course, you'd earn a LOT of enemies.. Drizzt, the temples, paladins, etc.

(I'm not sure if you can script the PC in that way though..)

[Felstorm]

Why not have her vampirize you? A vampiric bhaalspawn, with boosted stats and allergy to daylight

Cos it would be a real pain not being able to play the game in daylight because there are two handicapped people and also wouldn't it be possible that the part-God of you would repel vamparism?

[kinneer]

My vote is no to a romance, but yes to giving her more depth. One thing I really like to see, which has been mentioned before, is her interaction with Imoen after Bodhi's death.

I was disappointed at Valen's banter with Bodhi the second time. I would have though that Valen would have sided with the PC and would look forward to killing her former mistress. Valen should recognise by now that the PC is a match to Bodhi, so she is in a powerful group. Being evil, one method of getting to the top is to remove those above you. So Valen could take over Bodhi's clan by removing her.

Finally, with Imoen getting her soul back, Valen may feel some tie with her. This may conflict with the above but would present another avenue to expand Valen's character. How will she cope with having Imoen as a mistress, so to a speak.

[Felstorm]

I would have though that Valen would have sided with the PC and would look forward to killing her former mistress

I completely agree to that, she is looking out for one person alone, HERSELF, I don't think she would romance as an equal (she would want to be in control). So its just me saying romance may not be needed but her character should be more in depth.

Personally I  hate chaotic evil people because of my goody goody nature but I do know my enemy

[Andyr]

I haven't read the whole thread

Everyone is all about lets redeem the vampire!

I have nothing to add, just thought this was funny. If you can tell what's in a thread without reading it, I'm impressed.

[Jurgenaut]

I haven't read the whole thread

Everyone is all about lets redeem the vampire!

I have nothing to add, just thought this was funny. If you can tell what's in a thread without reading it, I'm impressed.

lol yeah, that is kinda impressive
But seriously, I read like 2-3 pages and subconsciously made a statistical image of the thread. I don't like valen, because she tried to eat valygar. I had to kill her on the spot. She's supposed to be my vampire on a leesh, not running around enforcing her own agenda (which is eating).

How do you redeem the irredeemable?  

[Felstorm]

How do you redeem the irredeemable?

Work twice as hard at redeeming?  

[St. Josephine]

Ventura

Alright, I’m probably getting into this way too late, but here’s my long-winded two cents.

I think it would be cool to be able to romance Valen.

Here’s why:

Nobody is one hundred percent evil. Some people, like say, Neb, are really close, but nobody’s all one thing or the other. Everyone has shades of grey.

(On a weird sidenote, wouldn’t that be a way more evil, rep-destroying mod than Valen? The Neb NPC?)

Even if you’re evil, you can’t spend all your time kicking puppies and burning down orphanages. Evil people are still people. They have basic emotional needs like everybody else, just twisted in odd ways.

So Valen is a monster, as a Bhaal-spawn, you aren’t exactly normal yourself. Plenty of people would call you a monster, even if your PC was the holiest of Paladins. (And, if you’re looking at picking Valen up, you probably aren’t)

I keep Korgan in my party. Let’s compare the two of them.

Korgan kills for money, because he enjoys it, and because he’s good at it.

Valen kills to eat, because she enjoys it, and because she’s good at it.

If you take out the two they have in common, who’s really more evil? Somebody who kills to survive, or somebody who kills because you had, in his judgment, too much gold in your pocket.

Korgan stays with the PC because the PC keeps the bloody fights, the treasure, and the excitement coming, and because it’s (in some ways) safer to stand with the PC than alone, and definitely safer than standing against him/her.

Sure, Korgan might put an axe between your shoulder blades one day, for an enormous sum of cash, or just because you pissed him off, but that’s part of the price of being evil. Until that day comes, though, Korgan and the PC will happily hit the tavern together for a beer, some wenching, and the occasional skull-cracking brawl.

Now, I don’t feel the need to romance Korgan, but that’s because he’s male, four feet tall, and smells icky, not because he’s a tad bit psycho.

Valen, I think, would be much the same way.

She initially follows the PC because her Mistress wishes it, but along the way, she could have come to enjoy her time with the party, (assuming you play a properly evil group, and keep the bloody fights and the excitement coming, that is) and the PC’s company, finding you, and your divine blood and propensity for violence and large-scale mayhem and carnage rather intriguing.

Rescuing her from the Vampire Hunters when you could have, conceivably, run away and left her on her own, or worse, just turned her over to them, (Hey, you are evil, it’s more than possible you could have just saved your own skin at her expense) could be a turning point too. The fact that you didn’t could spark at least some grudging gratitude from Valen, like keeping Viconia from being burnt at the stake does.

In the wake of her Mistress’ destruction, she’s adrift, and clings to the PC for lack of other options. This would be the point at which the relationship would really kick in.

Clearly, it’s not going to be an Anomen, reciting bad poetry and staring deeply into each other’s eyes romance, but I could see Valen and the right PC having a fling, or becoming a “friends with benefits” type thing. You’re both intelligent, physically compatible, and have similar interests. So she’s undead, she’s not some mindless ghoul. She’s got a brain, and emotions, and can make decisions based on her head and heart. (Even if it doesn’t beat)

Admittedly, you’d probably have to keep doing things that keep your reputation down in the dirt to keep her interested, (I can see Val breaking off the romance if your rep even climbs to average) but if you’re the right type to be doing this, you probably don’t mind at all, and would, in fact, do those things for your own amusement anyway.

Yes, your other NPCs should be sufficiently weirded out by this, especially if you have Imowen with you, but most of them should probably know better than to challenge you about it.

It would be interesting to see what the Master Wraith would conjure up to throw at Valen if you were in a relationship, her Mistress probably, assuming Val couldn’t see right through his illusion.

Maybe at the end, if you to take your place as the new God of Murder, Valen could become your new high priestess, and start a cult of vampires in your honor. Or, if you chose to give up your godhood, probably to Val’s disgust, she could bite you, and the two of you could go off to unlive happily ever after.

Well, questions, comments, cries of “Shut up, noober!”?

Remember: Evil people need romance too, and when you’re bored with the Drow, the only thing to do is find something more dangerous to sleep with. ; )

Thorium Dragon

Nah, your never too late.

This thread is on its 10,000th view! Clearly that shows there is an undying (get it ) interest in the topic of Valen as a romanceable character.

Hopefully the thoughts on the final product of the Valen Expansion will produce as much long-term interest as all the fun of the speculation and hypotheticals have been so far, and continue to be.

Generally speaking, I think your points are all solid and we seem to be in agreement that evil relationships can and do function, albeit under a very different dynamic.

Dalis'ilhea

Well I've been reading this with interest, and finally decided to say something and possibly get kicked in the nagers but I do agree that a romance may be possible, I mean I almost always play a fighter/priest lawful neutral/good but I did play a priest of Talos and he was a nasty piece of work and was admitibly a lot of fun

a general sumerisation would be something along the lines of him saying to someone
"Angry? No, I'm not angry, but you however are rather well done"
the Talos kit gives you the ability to cast lightning bolt which probably explains this dialoge. But thats besides the point the point is, is that I think that he would have intriged Valen enough to get some sort of reaction

Felstorm

If a romance was done then I don't think it would be very romantic anyway given the evil and chaotic nature of Valen.

She is an undead character and I don't think she would need/want to get involved with anyone. If she really wanted something then she would probably take it by force. Also she is one of those characters that can later on be used just to rip the enemy apart and that was the point of her, to control a D&D monster, having a romance just seems out of place in my opinion but as they say 'whatever floats your boat'

Krimmy

 I can't wait for this mod, thanks Thorium!

I definitely think that Valen can be redeemed however it should be a very difficult task but not impossible, hell this is the realm of magic and the gods "anything is possible" hopefully it's pulled off well(no pressure)

[anonymous guy # 1]

Sorry this is late but i really feel like posting my opinion on this.

Sorry i have nt read all since there were quite a few (11 pages it is late and do not feel like reading them all and dont have the time eiter).

Well my opinion is that you should not beable to have a rimance with a vampire but a human (or one or the opther races of the game) yes.  I think that inorder to get with her you could persuade her to give up her powers and become moratal.  Throughout the game oyu could get close to her and slowly make her reconcider her path of becoming a vampire and finally revoke her powers as you kill bohdi or something like that.  Or a side quest to kill the vampire who turned her into one.  Once dead she can become mortal and nolonger a vampire and could progress with her from there.  After the experience of being a vampire she could keep some of the powers and thngs but loose most of the vampric ones (ie speed no mortal can ove that fast, lv drain maby if she stays evil she may still want to bite people, etc).  As  vampire i would sooner expect her to bite my throat than fall in love with me.  If you help her become human (or whatever she was origionally) then i can see you having more of  romance with her.  As a vampire you woulnt really want to touch her even since she would be coldas ice and have no warmth.  Even as evil i would be very cutious especially as caoticc since the caotic structure is based on fear and power (the one who kills the leader becomes the leader, all obey the stringest).  Evil people are generaly cautous and would probably be even more around a vampire.  People generally dont like evil people as much and thusly they are less trusting (if you look at the reputation at the low end you have to be careful of guards snd them attacking you and at the botom evil people are t happiest.  it is in their nature.)  Vould you trust a vampire who was handed to you by you current employer (ie bihdi in ch 2-3) knowing that they could turn on oyu at anymoment and easily kill you with lv drain.  You could possibly get close to them but i would be weary of a vamoire in my group reguardless.  Think of viconia's story of the farmers and how when she let her guard down she was burried alive (i was shocked by this stiry when i first listened to the whole story since i ussally ended it by saying not to judge all by the actions of the others, i learned not to cross her after that and make sure she was dead if I ever needed it).  As you persuade her to turn mortal you are still weary of her and untrusting but once she finally becomes mortal again your trust is solidified and your realationship can begin.  Once she becomes mortal you can finally trust her since she was willing to get rid of her powers for you ratehr than staying a vampire for power.  Especcially after yoshimo proves to be a traitor how can oyu trust her since she is one of bohi's vampires and all work for the same person who is your mortal enemy.  Pnce yshimo turns against you i wouls loose all trust in her unless she truely porved that she wanted to leave bohdi, what better way then no longer being a vampire.

That is my opion on this sory i could not resist i had to say this.  Thank you for bothering to read my ideas.  I just think that this would be a better way of aproaching a romance with her than going with a full vampire.

this is my alternative for thoes who dont think that it should be possible with her (due to her being a vampire) and thoes who want it.

Sory if someone cameup with this already i like to think this as an origional idea and of course did not read all 11 pages since it is too late for that.

[jester]

A spell check and some paragraphs would not have gone to waste on the big chunk.

[Lord Kain]

what do you call a man you kisses a vampire. Dead. I mean really would you kiss someone who can suck the life energy right out of you? The only way you could EVER romance her is if she slipped and fell on the alter to amulator and was cured.