Improved Demogorgan

[Rhearns]

I have the non standard improved Demogorgan mod installed and am finding it really tough. I can only seem to get him down to badly injured. He then gates more demons and appears to heal himself. Can I get a few pointers here.

My party is:

Kensage
Solaufein
Keldorn
Sarevok
Aerie
Valygar


What weapons does it take to hit him +5? I've tried the simulcrum, improved alacarity, three lower resistance and 3 ADHW combo. Sometimes it works and hits him hard but sometimes it doesn't work! Or at least seem to hurt him?

What protections does he have on? Are these replenished whenever he gates in more demons? My characters have low THACO, some at -13 and GWW but still struggle to hit him. I think I could beat him if I understood what was going on. Like Wes says knowing is half the battle!

Pls help, thanks in advance.
---
Magical Rhearns                    

[KaPe]

I killed him with Bloodbane +4, so you don't need +5... However, my party was fairly hi-lev(already beaten eclipse, the five etc.) so it was just matter of improved haste, breach, and beating him up in meelee... (not much of advice, i know... but at least you know that +4 is enough                    

[weimer]

If you're talking about the paralyzing throwing spear Bloodbane that you got from the Red Badge foes in one of the Sola-mod tactical doobies, it's actually +5.

Anyway, he has 90% magic res, 100% fire res, 100% elec res, 50% cold res and 0% acid res.

He is immune to all interesting effects (e.g., charm, sleep, hold, slay, timestop, sarevok). Also laughs at level 1 and 2 spells, +0, +1 and +2 weapons.

There's nothing really special in his script: summon infernal host this, cast implosion that, beguiling gaze the other.

Basically, just attack him.                    

[Piker]

His attack sequence starts once the PC is in sight.  So you can summon up whatever you want to summon up, buff, and then walk the PC down to start the show.

This is cheese for some, not for others. Up to you if you want to use it.

The strictly-no-muenster-with-my-monster method is just ignore everyone but Mr. Gorgon and give him everything you have, or he will just keep summoning friends for you play with.  

The more stuff you can do more or less instantly via spell triggers or contingencies the easier you will find it.

Anyway, hope that helps.                    

[Althernai]

Is he completely immune to Sarevok? Also, does anyone know for sure which resistance lowering spells work and which don't? I know that Pierce Shield (the level 8 one) works, does Lower Resistance or Pierce Magic? (Chain Contingencies just don't go off for me 70% of the time - you are 4 rounds into the fight and then it goes off on some demon, I very much prefer Spell Triggers).

I find it useful to keep a constant stream of Horrid Wiltings coming into the center of the chamber - it will hurt him by about 100-200HP and his demons take soem damage too. Also, if you are not using the Carsomyr or SoTM offensively, then cast Breach every round. Other than that, just whack it until it dies.                    

[Kish]

I suspect Wes meant Demogorgon is immune to Deathbringer Assaults, not to Sarevok.

If he's only immune to the first two spell levels, Lower Resistance and Pierce Magic should work, though I haven't tested this (which means no, I don't know for sure, I'm just mentioning this with the above message).                    



[!--EDIT|Kish|Oct 9 2002, 10:22 PM--]

[Althernai]

That's what I meant - is he immune to Sarevok's Deathbringer Assault and Sarevok's stun?

I also suspect that they work, but it doesn't give the message "MR lowered by x" so I wanted to know for sure.                    

[Rhearns]

Thanks for your help everyone. I think I gave up too easily on this fight, as I beat him first time after work last night. Firstly I left the keep and I upgraded Foebane and Purifier and FOA, it helped having +5 weapons. Used simulcrum and summoned some greater elementals. Took a while but he went down, Aerie got the kill with a bolt of glory.

I guess I couldn't work out why sometimes you could pound on him for several rounds with no hits and then other times you could hurt him bad. This had me dissillusioned, as I struggled to get him to Badly injured and then he would heal himself. He has Stoneskin that must be breached I assume, although I didn't notice it listed in the dialogue window. He heals himself also, as after several rounds he can go from Badly injured to injured. Do demons have regeneration? Anyway didn't need to hide upstairs I went toe to toe and used Ring of the ram, ADHW, Bolts of Glory, Lower Resistance, Breach, Gesen Bow +3 Arrows and lots of steel.

"I also suspect that they work, but it doesn't give the message "MR lowered by x" so I wanted to know for sure." Althernai.

Althernai this had me worried, I would cast Lower Resistance over and over but the amount lowered would never appear which was confusing. The fact that he uses and reuses stoneskin without it showing also had me perplexed.


Oh well the nasty Demon, well his Avatar anyway is no more. Hacked to pieces by my party which will show more perserverance next time.    Other than improved Irenicus (Took 5 tries to beat :huh: )  and Improved Kangaxx, this is my only stumbling block so far. Lloths Avenger and the Revenge Spiders went down first time and looking forward to the Eclipse party.                    

[Michel]

"Lower Resistance" doenst work, use "Pierce Magic" instead.                    

[Tyranny]SiN[]

he is Immune to all Mage spells below 6th level - Pierce Shield is the only thing that works on lowering his magic resistances. Nothing else will work.

He regenerates 3hp/second
Requires a +3 or better weapon to hit
He is Immune to Critical Strikes, deathblows, power attacks, all your "special abilities".
He can summon demons and outer planes demons/creatures as many times as he likes.
He attacks with level drain, he drains 6 levels if you fail your save.
He also attacks you with diseases on every successful strike - its the same as the contagion spell mixed with Delorious Decay its 2hp/second for 1 turn.
He is 95% magic resistant
He has 290 HP
AC -6
THac0 -2

Now this is just the Origianl guy - you mentioned he was "New and Improved" ? LoL why??

                     

[Assassin]

he is Immune to all Mage spells below 6th level - Pierce Shield is the only thing that works on lowering his magic resistances. Nothing else will work.

He regenerates 3hp/second
Requires a +3 or better weapon to hit
He is Immune to Critical Strikes, deathblows, power attacks, all your "special abilities".
He can summon demons and outer planes demons/creatures as many times as he likes.
He attacks with level drain, he drains 6 levels if you fail your save.
He also attacks you with diseases on every successful strike - its the same as the contagion spell mixed with Delorious Decay its 2hp/second for 1 turn.
He is 95% magic resistant
He has 290 HP
AC -6
THac0 -2

Now this is just the Origianl guy - you mentioned he was "New and Improved" ? LoL why??

                   I'll tell you why, at least in my perspective.  3 hp per second wasn't really all that fast; Abi-Dazlim's Horrid Wilting takes down those HP's *fast*. Most characters, just by playing through Watcher's Keep, already have +3 weapons (more likely +5).  Greater Whirlwind still works, and I rarely, if ever, need to use Critical Stikes against him, with a AC of 'only' -6 (I usually have a thac0 of -10 or better by that point).  

Summoning demons isn't that much of a deal; just concentrate on the big dude.  Mordy Swords can keep them off of your back is you're really desperate.  Level drain is fought off by the Amulet of Power. Diseases, likewise, either by the Ring(s) of Gaxx, or by the Periapt Proof against poison.  Besides, he has to hit you in melee for that to happen, and that's a rare chance against me; I usually just keep slinging Skull Traps and Abi-Dazlim's Horrid Wiltings at him.

95% MR?  Not a Problem, expecially considering that most Mages, by that point, are level 20 +, and make sure to put in a triple Pierce Shield Chain Contingency before facing him.  That leaves him with 5 MR.  290 HP goes really quickly.  -6 AC and a thac0 of -2, compared to a character at that point, is almost pitiful.  My Kensage has -5, just with the Robe of Vecna, the Ring of Protection +2, and the Ring of Gaxx.  He also has a thac0 of -6.

I got a lot of practise against enemies with immunities to spells lower than level 6 a lot, especially because I was making a point of killing all of the Liches.  Still, Skull Traps will work.  And weimer even said that spells 3 and up will work, just not those of levels 1 and 2.                    

[weimer]

Hold on, now. Weimer said that levels 1 and 2 will fail.

I should have made this more clear -- I did a cursory sweep of his equipped items and permanent effects using Near Infinity. Everything I listed is true, but it may not be exhaustive. For example, he may be immune to level 3 or 4 spells from some effect I didn't notice, or he may be immune to the breach spell specifically, or whatnot. Everything I listed was true, but don't assume it was a complete list. :-)                    

[Althernai]

he is Immune to all Mage spells below 6th level - Pierce Shield is the only thing that works on lowering his magic resistances. Nothing else will work.

He regenerates 3hp/second
Requires a +3 or better weapon to hit
He is Immune to Critical Strikes, deathblows, power attacks, all your "special abilities".
He can summon demons and outer planes demons/creatures as many times as he likes.
He attacks with level drain, he drains 6 levels if you fail your save.
He also attacks you with diseases on every successful strike - its the same as the contagion spell mixed with Delorious Decay its 2hp/second for 1 turn.
He is 95% magic resistant
He has 290 HP
AC -6
THac0 -2

Now this is just the Origianl guy - you mentioned he was "New and Improved" ? LoL why??

Dude, where are you getting this from - some of it is obviously wrong. He is not immune to level 3 spells - Scull Trap works just fine, Breach works too. I think he has 90% MR, not 95% - perfect for Chain Contingency: 3x Pierce Shield. He can't be immune to Critical Strike - it is a function of your character and not of what is being hit. He will not take double damage, but you will hit him every time.                    

[KaPe]

I think he *should* be immune to level 1-5... After all, liches(imp.) are, and the great demon lord can breached... Sure, liches are powerful, but compared to him, they should die in no time...                    

[Althernai]

I think he *should* be immune to level 1-5... After all, liches(imp.) are, and the great demon lord can breached... Sure, liches are powerful, but compared to him, they should die in no time...

No, he shouldn't - you meet a certain wannabe-goddess at the end of ToB - that outranks demogorgon and she is not immune to Breach either. Liches spend entire centuries thinking of ways to resist these spells (which is why, from a storytelling point of view, someone gaining Lich immunities in 2 hours is not very believable). Demogorgon has other business to attend to - ruling his layer of the Abyss, fighting the Blood War, etc. - he is not thinking about spells - what he has just comes to him naturally.                    

[KaPe]

That's why "wanna-be" goddes has Ascension... Sure, you can breach her, but it doesn't really matter... And demon lord deserves something better than standard "breach&attack" ...                    

[weimer]

Are you sure that Lich immunities are the result of centuries of study and not the result of the soul's talent for manipulating magic taking advantage of a now-personal link with the Negative Material Plane?

If your theory were correct, it would be possible to meat "young liches" that were undead sorcerers without the standard lich powers and defenses. This never really seems to happen. We meet ranges of liches in the game: from the standard lich, to the elemental lich, to kangaxx, to vangeothe. Some of these have *more* powers than the standard lich: none have fewer abilities. It would appear that in the BG2 universe, "standard lich" is in fact the youngest variety: a lich springs fully formed from the head of Zeus (wait, wrong fairy tale)  with the canonical powers. Perhaps the trick is in the entrance exam: a sorcerer not powerful enough to get the bonuses immediately upon entering the unlife doesn't become a lich.

Your theory is perfectly plausible for any number of fantasy adventures. I might subscribe to it myself. I would certainly find it "internally consistent" and "externally plausible" as a player. However, there's nothing that requires it to be the case in BG2 or in any particular fantasy adventure.

Finally, to address your other comment: that's a valid excuse. You might also suggest that there is no way Irenicus could strip your soul and give it Bodhi all in the space of a five-minute waking dream. BG2 has already set a standard of compressing quite a few things for the purposes of gameplay. For another example, when I started playing dungeons and dragons there were actual time costs associated with memorizing spells (and they were related to the spell level, if I recall). This would mean that you would be resting for weeks just to recharge Imoen the Archmage. BG2 elides this, or it isn't present in AD&D rules. But it is "more realistic".                      

[Althernai]

That's why "wanna-be" goddes has Ascension... Sure, you can breach her, but it doesn't really matter... And demon lord deserves something better than standard "breach&attack" ...

                   Oh yes it does - there are not that many +6 weapons in the game. She si not that tough - it's her servants that are the challenge.                    

[Althernai]

I knew what I was getting myself into with that parenthesis, but I wrote it anyway... why?

Are you sure that Lich immunities are the result of centuries of study and not the result of the soul's talent for manipulating magic taking advantage of a now-personal link with the Negative Material Plane?

If your theory were correct, it would be possible to meat "young liches" that were undead sorcerers without the standard lich powers and defenses. This never really seems to happen. We meet ranges of liches in the game: from the standard lich, to the elemental lich, to kangaxx, to vangeothe. Some of these have *more* powers than the standard lich: none have fewer abilities.

No, I am not sure, but I believe so. Otherwise, what do those centuries of study accomplish? What is the difference between the 'standard lich' and Vongoethe? A Dragon's Breath? A couple of 9th level spells? Nothing Nalia could not achieve in two months - and liches are supposed to be at least as intelligent as she (and probably more). What do they do for entire centuries? Sleep? Some unlife.

As to "young liches", it is quite logical that you would not meet any unless you were specifically looking for them (which you are not). They know they are going to get creamed by people like you, so they stay away from places that draw adventurers until they are ready.

Finally, to address your other comment: that's a valid excuse.

I am not complaining about the compression of the ritual to transform from mortal to lich into under 2 hours - I meant that two hours is a very small time relative to centuries.

Of course, this is all just a theory about a fictional creature.  You are entitled to your own theory with the transformation instantaneously giving the creature lich immunities - all I said was that I find it difficult to believe.                    

[Dark Phantom]

could it not be said that this transfermation is due to the PC's bhaal blood? (IF that is the PC you even refer too, I have not played with ascention yet, doing it and several other mods (Improved illych, solfein, Tashia) now.                    

[Assassin]

Just what is Vongoethe?  Is is more powerful than Kangaxx or something?                    

[weimer]

Vangoethe is a lich in ToB. His Lich form is more powerful than Kangaxx's Lich form: VG is probably the most powerful Lich in the game. His cannot be meaningfully compared to a demilich, however: they do imprisonment over and over again, he does high-level mage spells.                    

[KaPe]

Ok, now i remember something... Balors in Ascension have permament "aura of flaming death" (and explode when killed :rolleyes:  So why can't a demon-lord have that too? Surely his more powerful than a mere balor? Or those backstabing, vorpal-hiting shadow-thingies... (babau? or sth)
Vangoethe... which one is it? The one in Amkethram?                    

[Piker]

Yeah, the one with the Soulstone.  There is some fun literary referencing going on in that plot.                    

[Kish]

One thing just occurred to me.
Never mind liches--that's debatable.  Why is Demogorgon, the most powerful demon prince, vulnerable to weapons that won't hit the Lesser Demon Lord?