Author Topic: Thought/Suggestion for Valen  (Read 3780 times)

reiella

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« on: July 27, 2002, 03:04:18 AM »
Was thinking it might be 'neat'/make sense/somewhat balanced to make Valen immune to the Protection from Undead opcode (so that you can't use the scrolls on her, not so that she isn't 'blinded' to Prot/Undead people).                    

alustriel

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2002, 08:39:32 AM »
I actually never thought about that.  Seems casting a spell like Protection from Undead on the undead would/should have some negative or nil effect on the recipient.  Now I'm curious.  Anyone know offhand about this?  :huh:                    

reiella

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2002, 03:06:41 PM »
Off-hand not really.  Closest thing to Prot. Undead there is in actual 2e is Invisibility to Undead (which typically won't even work against Liches).                    

Offline weimer

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2002, 12:01:49 AM »
Quote
Was thinking it might be 'neat'/make sense/somewhat balanced to make Valen immune to the Protection from Undead opcode (so that you can't use the scrolls on her, not so that she isn't 'blinded' to Prot/Undead people).
Sadly, the "protection from undead" scroll doesn't have its own opcode: just a general "protection from creature type" that is used for other things (like protecting you from demons when you have pro-evil). In addition, as long as her "race" is "undead" she will be "unable to see" people who have used such scrolls -- no matter what immunities I give her. Sorry!

Finally, I wouldn't want to let her see through such scrolls -- the Hunters use them against her later.                    

Kish

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2002, 01:58:01 AM »
I believe the suggestion was not that Valen should be able to see through Protection from Undead, but rather that she should derive no benefit from using a Protection from Undead scroll herself.                    

reiella

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2002, 03:19:48 PM »
Yep, as Kish stated, although as said, not really possible to make Valen 'immune' to the opcode effect from having it cast.

Maybe it'd be possible (but probably far too much work for what its worth) to change the Scroll of Prot from Undead to just not work on undead targets, I believe that's the only source of prot undead.                    

Blucher

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2002, 03:35:08 PM »
Here's a way to do this, but it requires a bit of tinkering, and I'm not sure if it's really worth any effort, but...

Create an innate spell that duplicates the effect of the Pro. Undead scroll.

Modify the Pro. Undead itm so that it casts the new spell, instead of directly applying the effect as it does now.

Add an effect to Valen's cre, Immunity to Spell, new spell.

That should do it.                    

Artemidore

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2002, 03:28:06 PM »
Should it be possible to have Minsc and Valen in the same party? Minsc is not a cleric, nor a paladin, but his Racial Enemy however is Vampire (which is rather strange, according to his biography... but I guess his previous Gnoll Racial Ennemy --in BG1-- was just useless in BG2.)                    

Offline jcompton

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2002, 03:33:11 PM »
Quote
Should it be possible to have Minsc and Valen in the same party? Minsc is not a cleric, nor a paladin, but his Racial Enemy however is Vampire.
                   Oh, gosh, that's a pretty important point. :)

Yes, I really can't see why Minsc would tolerate such a thing.                    
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Homunculus

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2002, 12:40:50 AM »
Well, he tolerates good ol' charname siding with Bodhi and her coincidentally crypt-lurking, sunlight-avoiding eerie pale people, though he does seem to expression an instinctive aversion to them. Not being the brightest star in the firmament (and despite the sagacity of hamsters), I don't see why he'd object to Valen's presence overmuch, particularly if the protagonist  undertakes a campaign of obfuscation.

 Some ongoing convincing from the PC and a classic penny-dropping moment when Van Helsing and co. turn up would be a neat touch.                    



[!--EDIT|Homunculus|Aug 12 2002, 07:41 AM--]

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2002, 12:50:55 AM »
Minsc also can handle Edwin being around... for a while, just like he can hold his nose at working with Bodhi... for a while. But living, sleeping, washing his undies next to Valen for weeks on end? Sooner or later he's gonna remember that he's sworn to destroy her kind.

                   
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Homunculus

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2002, 01:27:31 AM »
Well, hence...

Quote
...a classic penny-dropping moment when Van Helsing and co. turn up would be a neat touch.

 There's already been a precedent with the likes of Keldorn and Jaheira becoming hostile or leaving the party if the protagonist decides to turn Drizzt into the Bhaalspawn speedbump he so richly deserves to be.                    

Offline jcompton

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2002, 01:36:49 AM »
Quote
Well, hence...

Quote
...a classic penny-dropping moment when Van Helsing and co. turn up would be a neat touch.

 There's already been a precedent with the likes of Keldorn and Jaheira becoming hostile or leaving the party if the protagonist decides to turn Drizzt into the Bhaalspawn speedbump he so richly deserves to be.
                   Ahh. I misunderstood your intention. My image was of the PC pretending to drop a penny and sending Minsc off to find it while he/she and Valen went and made mincemeat of the vamp hunters--i.e., perpetuating the ruse on Minsc that Valen's drinking tomato juice.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline jcompton

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2002, 01:44:56 AM »
(Jason crawls inside Westley's head for a moment to try to figure out where this issue might go. And no, I'm not being snide or vengeful or resentful or anything bad here.)

If I were Westley, my track record suggests that I will resolve Artemidore's "gotcha" with one of two design rules I have employed in the past.

- "Bioware NPCs Are Unaware Of Things I Don't Want Them To Notice." This is the Solaufein multi-romance clause. So perhaps it makes good Weimeric sense for Minsc not to care about Valen. (Unless memory fails me/things have changed, Valen complains about the goody-goodies but they don't actually say anything bad about her.)

...or...

- "NPCs Should Have Greater Insight Than Bioware Gave Them." AKA "Just because they wrote their people stupid doesn't mean I have to write them stupid, too." Yes, Minsc doesn't mind working with Bodhi, but that's because Bioware wanted to keep the playability and flexibility rather high, rather than have half the party ditch the PC over a choice of allies that isn't very savory ANYWAY and is rather forced in terms of the flow of events. So in the same way that Solaufein knows how to get Captain Arat to pony up on the flame arrow stash when even Nalia, his ostensible employer, can't/doesn't, Minsc under Weimer's guidance should in fact be perceptive and aware enough to know that he's travelling with a sworn enemy, and act accordingly.                    



[!--EDIT|jcompton|Aug 12 2002, 02:50 AM--]
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Artemidore

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Thought/Suggestion for Valen
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2002, 05:50:07 PM »
Hm.

Hmm, hmmm.

Anyway, it's not a BIG problem. It's true that Bioware already made some more important *roleplaying* mistakes. I just wanted to point this out and to know how you felt about it. In my personnal opinion, Minsc should perhaps be more likely to leave the party if Valen joins than, let's say, Aerie. But Aerie is a good Cleric, so she could turn (or even destroy!) Valen.

OK, enough of it. Let just Minsc think that Valen drinks tomato juice!  :P                    

 

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