Valen's Hunters

[weimer]

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[!-Post: 2464-!][!-Time: 1026976506-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2464]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:kepa@oceanvoyages.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]kepa[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 12:15 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Any ideas on defeating Buffy, Van, and friends?  They're appearing early on in ToB and stomping my party to bits.  Any help greatly appreciated.
 
I won't upgrade to valen 20 (from until I figure out a reasonable way of killing these thugs.
 
Kepa [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2464-!]
[!-Post: 2472-!][!-Time: 1027008634-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2472]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 09:10 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!]Here's what the README says:  
 
[font FACE="Courier New"]Q: The Vampire Hunters are hanging Valen out to dry. How can I save her?
 
A: Apparently Valen (or was that Spike?) is hell on wheels, but it's hard
to user her incredible powers in this fight because she cannot target them.
My first suggestion would be to dispel their buffs. After that it's pretty
standard. Note that as Undead Hunters (Paladins) most of them are immune to
level drain.[/font]
 
Basically, they are using Pro-Undead scrolls so Valen cannot target them. Dispel those first so that Valen can get into the fight. But in general, I find it easiest to have Valen run around real fast trying not to get killed while your party hacks on the hunters one at a time. If you're feeling particularly evil, say "I won't fight" and then ambush them.  
 
Tell us what you are trying and what is happening so that we can offer suggestions.
 
They are supposed to be quite difficult -- in some sense, they are one price you have to pay for having Valen's incredible power in your party.[!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2514-!][!-Time: 1027111283-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2514]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:kepa@oceanvoyages.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]kepa[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 01:41 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] ok.. Thank you Westley, I will give it another go.
 
It's just unreal how much damage those hunters deal out!  Like 20-30 per hit!  (of course, my fighters do the same, but for the computer to hit back at the same level... and make the game actually HARD?! I think I've been spoiled by Valen's free ride for too long.  Awesome mod, AWESOME!)
 
Kepa [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2519-!][!-Time: 1027115379-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2519]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 02:49 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Ironically enough, my first (and only so far), attempt at the hunters won by trapping Van Helsing before he could talk, casting Dispel on them, and then watching Valen kill them with them not retaliating.
 
Non-cheese, I don't know yet [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"], thinking of mazing Valen when Van Helsing shows up (and say not fighting, watch as they stand around and do nothing against my party as they slowly pelt them dead.  Course that's prolly cheese too . [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2519-!]
[!-Post: 2549-!][!-Time: 1027230788-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2549]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 10:53 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Ironically enough, my first (and only so far), attempt at the hunters won by trapping Van Helsing before he could talk, casting Dispel on them, and then watching Valen kill them with them not retaliating. [/font][/font]
 
Interesting! What sort of "trap" was that? A maze trap?  
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]Non-cheese, I don't know yet [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"], thinking of mazing Valen when Van Helsing shows up (and say not fighting, watch as they stand around and do nothing against my party as they slowly pelt them dead. Course that's prolly cheese too .[/font][/font]
 
Enjoy it while you can. In the next version they won't sit around and let you kill them if you somehow evade the conversation with Van. :-)[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2549-!]
[!-Post: 2553-!][!-Time: 1027235122-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2553]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 12:05 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] That's good [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"].
 
That 'trap' was the Sahaugin City, btw [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"].  Van Helsing got stuck in the water hehe. [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2593-!][!-Time: 1027304148-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2593]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Kish_K@pacbell.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Kish[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 07:15 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Question:
 
What prompts the appearance of the hunters?  Is it just a timer that starts running when Valen joins the party, or is it tied to an xp point...? [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2593-!]

[!-Post: 2594-!][!-Time: 1027304933-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2594]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 07:28 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] 3.5 mil XP iirc. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2594-!]
[!-Post: 2595-!][!-Time: 1027305453-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2595]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Kish_K@pacbell.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Kish[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 07:37 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Now I'm frightened. :-)  We talking Eclipse Party toughness here? [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2595-!]
[!-Post: 2596-!][!-Time: 1027305760-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2596]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 07:42 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] They appear when Valen has 2.5M XP. Thus they typically appear before you have ToB-style HLAs and they usually have more XP than you do (notably, they do have ToB HLAs).  
 
Eclipse toughness? Not at all. They don't have any mages, no special time stops, no hideous regeneration, etc. It's exceptionally unlikely that they will kill your entire party. However, it can be moderately difficult to keep them from sending Valen to the big boneyard in the sky.  
 
They are perhaps the only non-trivial battle where "Unholy Blight" comes in handy. :-) [ Well, maybe Adalon and Drizzt rank as well. ] [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2596-!]
[!-Post: 2597-!][!-Time: 1027305981-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2597]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 07:46 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Nah, they fixate on Valen too, so long as you can keep her alive for a while while everyone else does their thing (notably some spellcaster casting dispel magic so Valen can actually retaliate).  Also depending on your party it's not too difficult.  With a druid in your group (if you can manage to keep one not pissed at you anyway), Insect Plague really hinders most their more frustrating attempts to kill Valen (Sunray bad).
 
Usually my problem with them tends to be Valen reaches 3.5 mil xp long before the rest of my party even breaks 2.5mil.
 
Hmm out of curiosity, does Breach remove Prot Undead? [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2597-!]
[!-Post: 2598-!][!-Time: 1027308206-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2598]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Kish_K@pacbell.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Kish[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:23 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Thanks, Wes.  I'll remember to have Viconia memorize Unholy Blight when I see Valen's about to hit 2.5 million XP.
 
That's curious, Reiella.  How is it that Valen has more XP than the rest of your people? [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2598-!]
[!-Post: 2599-!][!-Time: 1027308523-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2599]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:28 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Not too sure, think might have been from more than a few encounters where Valen was only person in the area, but had thought the rest of party still got xp.  Or could just have been that Valen didn't die (Protagonists usually was a mage so progression would have been slow there anyway... hmm.  Any event I don't know, could tell ya that she had 97% of my kills by the time the hunters showed up though heh. [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[a name=MB]
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[Feyd-Rautha]

I was wondering if it was possible not to lose all your reputation when you kill the knights. There is not much else you can do if you want to keep valen. I was lucky in the sense that I had bought everything I wanted to in SoA. I find it odd you HAVE to lose reputation but that you can walk into the hall of the radiant heart, kill everybody and keep a good rep.                    

[Kish]

I agree, Wes.

You should change it so that the Radiant Heart knights cost reputation too.

(Yes, I know that's not what Feyd-Rautha was suggesting.)                    

[reiella]

Another cheese spot found, the illithid city in the underdark (possibly also the one in Athlatka).

When encounter is triggered, it is quite possible to move Valen to a hallway with a closable door, and while the hunters are so focused on trying to walk through walls to get to Valen, they ignore that they're dying (except for the twin Deva summons).

Out of curiosity, is it also possible for the hunters to show up in Ust Natha?                    

[Gospel]

If I remember correctly... The Vampire Hunters give you a chance to abandon missus Valen :D

The Order guys just go crazy and turn hostile :D

Wouldn't it be better to just have a reputation drop when missus Valen joins, that's bigger than Viconia's/Sulaufein's? :D

Like... 6? :D

I know about all that "She's a vampire, that's what you get for letting her join you, blathathathathatawoowoo" stuff, but this seems a bit much :D

[reiella]

If you can get Valen to 2.5mil xp without your Rep having decided it wants to live at 1-4 you either ... spend alot of money at the church or keep Valen from being part of any decisions .  Kinda nice that she doesn't force you to go Poison the Druid Grove at least .                    

[Gospel]

*purrs* I was referring to change the whole reputation drop to something permanent, ma'am, Instead of all the interjection stuff... Hehe :)

Missus Valen may be a vampire, but I don't think she'd do so many things to compromise the party. It doesn't really fit unless most situations are forced on her. IE: the super crazy hunter guys, or the noble order people :D

As it is, the thing wrong that I see is you CAN bribe a church to raise your reputation. Unless there's some super weird hijinks, possibly to 20. I don't think you can get a 20 with Viconia in your party, right? Since you always have a reputation decrease when she's in the party. Not sure... :D

If that's the case though, maybe missus Valen should just drop your alignment by 8? :D

That would prevent you from ever getting an above average reputation, right ma'am? ^_^

Err... unless that isn't the case! *purrs* Then... umm... I should probably be ignored, yow! :D

Edit: Of course, many of my views are of my interpretation of missus Valen's character... maybe I think she's nicer than she is? Not knows, do you? *spin* :)



[!--EDIT|Gospel|Jul 28 2002, 02:01 PM--]

[reiella]

Actually you can with Viconia in your party, 'buy' your rep up to 17 (actual church rep boost cap in bg2, might be 18 but believe it's 17) once she's in your party, and then just gain 3 rep points (like say putzing around in Trademeet).

All her script does is lower your reputation by 2 when she joins you, and raises it by 2 when she leaves your party.  Sadly the net effect is that people typically use Viconia as a means to buy their rep up to 19 (buy rep up to 17, get viconia, rep goes down to 15, buy up to 17, release viconia, poof 19 rep).

Although it's probably possible to have it coded so whenever your rep goes above some point, the script will lower your rep (one point, and it should recurse down till it no longer triggers), not too sure how well that'd work though.  Not my field .                    

[Gospel]

Oh, okies ^^;;

Thankies ma'am ^_^

*paws the ground* I feel enlightened now, in a goofy sort of way. Hehe :D

[Kish]

Missus Valen may be a vampire, but I don't think she'd do so many things to compromise the party.

Nothing she does compromises the party.  She compromises the party's ability to be Good, that's all, and that's fully in character.

Just to make sure my opinion is felt here: I would hate to see you take out or tone down the interjections, Wes.  I like the fact that taking Valen means committing fully to Evil.  It would be a good idea to make killing the Radiant Heart knights cost rep too, but if you tried to fix every bug in BG2 you'd never get your thesis done, so that fix is not important.                    

[Gospel]

Nothing she does compromises the party.  She compromises the party's ability to be Good, that's all, and that's fully in character.

*chases his tail!* Ok, sir! :D

She's so nice, though ;_;

[Kish]

(This is split into three parts in the hopes that it will actually post that way.  It wouldn't post as one post, or as two.)

Well done, Wes.  This battle was fun, and not frustrating.  I probably even beat them without anything you'd call cheese.  And they didn't restrict my movement, which is a big thing for me.

My party was/is:
Fanskar, Anti-Paladin 13/Cleric 16.
Valen.
Korgan, who recently gained Power Attack.
Viconia, who recently gained Elemental Summoning.
Imoen, hacked into a ranger/archer, with the Elven Court Bow.  Much lower level than the rest of the party.
Edwin, who hit level 18 and gained Dragon's Breath with the xp from this fight.                    

[Kish]

Phase One:
As soon as we arrive in the Underdark, Valen starts running toward the Earth Elemental Portal.  (Boots of Celeritous Stealth.)  Edwin Improved Hastes Korgan.  Korgan Enrages.  The others wait for our heroes to appear.  (I know from the first few tries that any spells Viconia or Fanskar tried to cast would be interrupted.)
Korgan attacks Van Helsing as soon as he appears.  Imoen attacks Buffy as soon as she appears.  (It doesn't matter which one Imoen attacks, as long as it's not Van Helsing, with his Physical Mirror.)  Viconia casts Elemental Summoning, Fanskar casts Righteous Magic, Edwin casts two Mordenkainen's Swords.  Phase One ends when Valen is at the Earth Elemental Portal (depending on how her mind control is working, she may have recruited an Earth Elemental or a Kuo-Toa along the way), the four vampire hunters are converging on her, and the party is converging on the hunters.  The three devas the hunters summon are left behind to play with the Mordenkainen's Swords and Viconia's elementals.                    



[!--EDIT|Kish|Jul 28 2002, 10:14 PM--]

[Kish]

Phase Two
Korgan and Imoen both attack physically.  Korgan picks on Van Helsing while Imoen picks on anyone but Van Helsing.  (N.B. The Dispel Magic ability of a level 13 anti-paladin is completely inadequate for this fight, so I quit trying it after a couple times.)
Valen occupies herself with the Earth Elementals, since she can't see anyone actually involved in the main fight, until she's pounded into mist form.  It doesn't usually take long.
Viconia and the main character target Valen's location with Unholy Blights.  Edwin does the same, only with Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings.  Since an Unholy Blight is enough to send any summon hostile, we use no summons here.
Key to this strategy is Valen's moment of vulnerability (she's in humanoid form but still purple-circled) coinciding with the surviving Undead Hunters being out of the fight (Sanctuaried and trying to Heal themselves).  Those Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings and Unholy Blights are likely to kill the Sanctuaried hunters before they can Heal themselves.  Van Helsing is always the first to go down.                    

[weimer]

(This is split into three parts in the hopes that it will actually post that way.  It wouldn't post as one post, or as two.)

Well done, Wes.  This battle was fun, and not frustrating.  I probably even beat them without anything you'd call cheese.  And they didn't restrict my movement, which is a big thing for me.

My party was/is:
Fanskar, Anti-Paladin 13/Cleric 16.
Valen.
Korgan, who recently gained Power Attack.
Viconia, who recently gained Elemental Summoning.
Imoen, hacked into a ranger/archer, with the Elven Court Bow.  Much lower level than the rest of the party.
Edwin, who hit level 18 and gained Dragon's Breath with the xp from this fight.

I wonder why it wouldn't post in one big chunk?

Anyway, I'm glad that you liked the battle and that it didn't require great cheese (although knowing that it is coming is a great advantage). Thanks for the description, I'll add it to the README.                    

[reiella]

Biggest problem I see is that it's a spontaneous occurance, it's incredibly difficult to keep Valen alive in an enclosed space if you happen to be at 2.5 mill xp in a dungeon (most likly unless you hit that in the Sahaugin City), there's also that the only open area they can currently show up in is the Underdark (all the other open areas are tagged Outdoors I believe).

And even in most it isn't too bad since you can still run (and leave the area) most of the time.  Having it occur in the Illithid area isn't much fun though, the hunters can easily block valen's retreat path and kill her in the short bursts of Purple Circle and not in mist form (huge regen helps a bit here, long as you can survive the waves of Sunray being used in mistform).

My big problem is them showing up in some places that don't make too much sense.  Possibly suggest adding a check so they don't show up when PartyLooksLikeDrow (you are kinda disguised by the Silver Dragon), in Ust Natha in general (or if they do show up in Ust Natha, make the rest of the city kinda not like them), and when the Illithid City in the Underdark is sealed.                    

[Homunculus]

Let me pitch in a "me too" regarding the difficulty of this particular battle; I usually find the upgraded and mod-added fights more frustrating than fun  (and, dare I say, a tad out of whack with the game's overall difficulty settings, causing a "WAIWMTWT?"* on more than one occasion), but this one bowled in at just the right level to comfortably manage and strategise for, even taking into account the usual Homunculus ineptitude.

* "Why Am I Wasting My Time With This?" - Usually occurring after noticing I've spent  the good part of a free afternoon trudging through a single battle, and usually swiftly succeeded by an emphatic uninstallation.