Author Topic: Valen Romances  (Read 14226 times)

Offline weimer

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Valen Romances
« on: July 23, 2002, 09:06:30 PM »
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[!-Post: 1428-!][!-Time: 1022631642-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1428]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 05:20 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I have gotten *quite* a few pieces of email from users who would like to see Valen extended to include a romance (and possibly a redemption and possibly a de-vamping).  
 
I would like to get everyone's thoughts here (even if you have already sent me email). Do you want any of the things mentioned above?
 
Would you be willing to contribute dialogue?  
 
Do you have ideas for conversations and plots? [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1428-!]
[!-Post: 1429-!][!-Time: 1022632119-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1429]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:lady_alustriel@cablerocket.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]lady alustriel[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 05:28 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!]I don't play evil parties (yet) but I think a romance would be nice... but leave it open so that you could either choose to romance her as an evil vamp or devamp and romance...  Kind of like the Anomen choice... knight/not knight, etc...
 
Just a thought...
 
Ideas?  Ehhh... I don't do evil well... hehe I feel guilty if an innocent cat gets caught in the crossfire of a battle... (reload!)[img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif"][!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1429-!]
[!-Post: 1432-!][!-Time: 1022633480-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1432]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:g_blucher@yahoo.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Blucher[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 05:51 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I say give in to the dark side, Luke.  Another romance-redemption would make me ill. :-)  Bad enough, I say, that the Vic romance is more 'good' even if both are (and stay) evil.
 
(Eh, but I understand an evil romance would be a huge challenge.)
 
My two bits. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1432-!]
[!-Post: 1433-!][!-Time: 1022644024-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1433]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:byak_ko@hotmail.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]WhyteTyger[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 08:47 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I like the idea of her having more interaction. She's an interesting character, and if anyone can give her believeable dialogues, it's you (well assuming she gets philosophical or metaphysical on you). If you think you can do one (or both) believably, they why not? Frankly, I don't think any one should be tied to the other. Maybe she wants the humanity taken from her, so she wants to be devamped, but you know what, maybe she's still planning on stabbing her own grandmother in the back for some candy. Or maybe she writes dark and haunting poetry about the main character, but it's filled with verses about dead babies and the like. I don't think she needs to be 'good' for any of these things to happen. And maybe, just maybe, at the end of her long quest to become a human again, the truth is shown to her: she can't. I don't think there have been many instances of vampires in the Realms being turned back into humans, and frankly I'm fine with that. If poor Jandar Sunstar can't be brought back into the light (so to speak), then why should Valen? That being said, I think there could still be a quest. But maybe in the end, instead of becoming human (and after some dark god has his bit of humor at her expense) she becomes a little bit more powerful (if that's possible).
 
I think she presents a world of possibilities, presuming you can find the best balance for them.
 
WT [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1433-!]
[!-Post: 1434-!][!-Time: 1022649927-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1434]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:johnyd@freemail.hu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Johny_D[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 10:25 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I don't think she should be devamped. That'd be stupid (so I agree with Tyger, we're playin an RPG by the way!)
And I don't think this romance option is a good idea. Romancing a vampire?? She would want your blood instead of your kiss when she is thirsty. And turning her back to human'd destroy her unique being.
 
As I am thinking on what I've written above, for the romance the only logical sollution would be turning yourself into vampire. A romance between two vamps is possible I guess. But I don't want to be a vampire [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"] (personally) [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1434-!]
[!-Post: 1435-!][!-Time: 1022653566-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1435]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:jcompton@xnet.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]jcompton[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:26 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I am in favor of a non-romance, non-redemption devamping because Being a Vampire Is Not As Fun As the Pamplet Makes It Sound. Perhaps in the vein of the Keldorn "Uh, you really should just hang out with your wife, not me" quest.
 
Valen may enjoy backstabbing grannies during the daytime, and miss it. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1435-!]
[!-Post: 1436-!][!-Time: 1022655425-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1436]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:57 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] At Westley's request, I'm posting the contents of an email I sent him with some opinions on Valen, If something comes to me, I'll post more suggestions:
 
I don't know if you have any plans to work further on Valen though I hope you will. I'm mainly writing to offer a suggestion. I have no problem with Valen dying permanently when she falls in battle, as a vampire that's only fair, but it would be cool if when she dies she drops a body item (similar to the loved one vampire enoucnter with Bodhi), that way when you kill bodhi you could choose to restore Valen as a living human instead of your loved one. This would probably mean creating a weaker human version of Valen, but if you wanted to develop her as a romanceable character, this would be a good way to go, with a newly human Valen being confused about her place in the world, and her newly liberated freewill.
 
 
Anyway just a suggestion, in any event Valen could use more dialog, I found when I lost her in battle in the Underdark I didn't really care except for the loss of the firepower in battle.
 
 
Anyway great work on Valen, Soulafein and WeiDU, I hope you can keep up all the great BG2 work. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1436-!]
[!-Post: 1437-!][!-Time: 1022655785-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1437]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:jcompton@xnet.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]jcompton[!-/Name-!][/a] on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 12:03 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I like Jason's concept (keep the dead-is-dead, drop a body, and eventually do something with it) although Valen is "more" a vampire than the abducted vamps were, so it needs to be harder.
 
As for contributing content, which I didn't answer...I'd be willing to contribute but I'm not sure my vague notions of what Valen could/should be about line up with yours, Wes. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1437-!]
[!-Post: 1438-!][!-Time: 1022655807-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1438]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 12:03 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I agree that Valen, being evil to begin with, wouldn't necessarily be completely redeemed by being restored to life, but Valen would have comitted some truly evil acts while a vampire, that as a mortal she may not be able to face on her own. Not that it's necessarily a qualified precedent, but consider Angel on Buffy once his soul was restored by the gypsy curse.
 
The only way to get Valen in your party is to persue an evil path in the game (work for Bodhi), so it's unlikely your evil PC would want to turn her into a paragon of virtue anyway.
 
If she could be de-vamped, I think most of her dialog would be centered around trying to understand why *spoiler?*Bodhi betrayed her in Spellhold, and why the PC elected to bring her back to life. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1438-!]
[!-Post: 1439-!][!-Time: 1022656778-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1439]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 12:19 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Reading back through some of the earlier posts, I partially agree with Johny D's comment that devamping Valen would destroy "her unique being". What would need to be done to make devamping worthwhile is put more backstory and character into Valen. She needs more appeal as a personality, she may be brutal in combat, but perhaps she could be a little less mindless, in terms of will, and indifferent in conversation. Sure she's under Bodhi's influence, but perhaps outside of her mistress' gaze, some of her mortal nature would emerge? [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1439-!]
[!-Post: 1440-!][!-Time: 1022657360-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1440]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 12:29 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] The idea's are coming unbidden at the moment and it's annoying [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
I was just thinking that in any romance with Valen, the PC's biggest hurdle will be breaking Valen of the love she feels for Bodhi. Even before any devamping that may take place, the PC may be questioning Valen on the nature of her relationship with her mistress. Not suggesting explicit detail, just to give the player some perspective on the 'feelings' that even a vamped Valen is capable of. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1440-!]
[!-Post: 1448-!][!-Time: 1022710646-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1448]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:leander35@cox.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Scott Cary[!-/Name-!][/a] on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 03:17 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Valen as a romance would be a little far fetched.  I like the idea of seeking a "cure".  In my mind, the dialogue and the possibility of valen wanting to return to the realm of the living would occur around the begining of the gauntlet.  If you have played this far with Valen you know the dialogue I have in mind and the reasons behind this.
     
    The "revival" would have to include the possibility of Valen remaining a vamp and staying with the party as well.  I think there would have to be a specific bonus to Valen (XP or items) to make up for her loss of vampric powers.
 
     just my 2 cents! [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1448-!]
[!-Post: 1460-!][!-Time: 1022749732-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1460]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 02:08 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I'd like to reinforce the "dubious about the prospect of a romance, but thumbs-up to an involved and interesting de-vamping sub-quest" sentiment. I'd really like to see a deliciously wicked twist to the tried-and-tested "redemption" theme that is so prevalent in RPG's, where the outcome is not quite what the player may have been led to envisage. Let's not have any more diluted evil characters. ;-) [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1460-!]
[!-Post: 1473-!][!-Time: 1022778650-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1473]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aelia[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 10:10 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] The one thing wrong with having all these mods (which are wonderfully implemented i have to say) is that the ideas become less and less original, and more and more Cliche.  We have a redemption in the Vico romance, Sola sort of turned his ways around, Sarevok becomes good..etc. etc.  
 
So the whole "i'm evil but i have a good side just WAITING to come out" thing gets a bit old.
 
Another thing, it would be quite against the Laws of the game world to remove her curse without divine interention.  And i doubt Lathander or Selune or Amanuator would help a Chaotic Evil Vamp.
 
That being said, i think more character developement, maybe taking an interest in your soul somewhat like Bodhi's--but of course not as active.  Perhaps some encounters with a group of UnDead Slayers, Clerics etc.  
 
Anyway, my idea is to have a big quest about finding a cure for Valen (triggered after Bodhi's Betrayal) and Valen becomes increasingly frenzied in her search for this cure, but it turns out in the end to be a trap set by some Paladins (or someting along those line--add plot twists where you want).  
 
Basically, she's evil, and if you want her, you should be willing to play EVIL--not good with a bit of leniancy, or nuetral, but evil (like being willing to kill proper paladins of the Radiant Heart) [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1473-!]
[!-Post: 1480-!][!-Time: 1022786784-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1480]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 12:26 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I think you'll find the posts above echo your sentiment here. I think it'd be great to have Valen strung along with a detailed, single-minded quest for devamping (for whatever motivation; the "it's actually a bit of a bummer being a pasty shadowcrawler" idea sounds perfect).  
 
You mention divine intervention, which is interesting. This could be the reason Valen decides to stick with the protagonist through the latter stages of the game. All other tried avenues to defanging fail, so the only hope she has is to remain with the Bhaalspawn all the way to his or her possible Ascension to godhood, on the hope that this new Power in the Realms will fulfill this wish.  
 
 Of course, this means that Valen will be becoming ever more depserate with each successive failure or dead-end, and thus urging the protagonist to go for godhood at any available conversational opportunity (such as the diaogues with Sarevok where he queries what plans the PC has for the future). [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1480-!]
[!-Post: 1481-!][!-Time: 1022787545-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1481]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 12:39 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] One other thought. As previously suggested, there could be a divergent path whereby Valen succeeds in becoming devamped before endgame (I dunno; maybe Cyric decides to play a practical joke by, to his quasi-ineffable mind, reducing her power via removing her vampirism just before he sics his champion assassin types on the party in the fourth pocket plane test).  
 
 As a "consolation prize" of sorts, there's a disused level draining dagger in the item list for the game, which I saw using Shadowkeeper (Dagger +4, Lifestealer). I think it was originally planned for use by Artemis Entreri, but he was never implemented. This could be given to Valen at point of devamping; maybe all that negative planar energy was sucked out of her and moulded into something pointy to suit Cyric's whimsy. It's small potatoes by this point of the game, but it could possibly be upgraded to a more fearsome sticker by Cespenar, by combining it with the Heart of the Damned, or whatever that item is from the Lich in Sendai's Enclave that you can use to upgrade either the Sword of Mask or Gram the Sword of Grief to level drainers.
 
Done for now, I think. ^_^ [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1481-!]
[!-Post: 1484-!][!-Time: 1022790050-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1484]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:lady_alustriel@cablerocket.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]lady alustriel[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 01:20 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!]Perhaps in the final conversation with the Solar, if you choose mortality, she turns on you, calling you a coward and a weakling, and walks away.  After all, she has followed you through the Realms battling almighty powerful beasts and Bhaal spawn, hoping possibly?, for a cure and you destroy her last chance by refusing Godhood... Not a happy ending, but they don't all have to be!
[img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif"][!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1484-!]
[!-Post: 1490-!][!-Time: 1022794208-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1490]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 02:30 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I didn't get the impression that she 'enjoyed' the killing as much as she should have. I'm not implying she wasn't evil, but perhaps her dialogs could be modified to include more bloodthirsty lines (Sharteel in BG1 sounded more evil than Valen). Maybe a "blood frenzy" where she would go into a mini-bezerker mode when an enemy explodes into chunks, involving a "Settle the hell down you psycho vampire bitch!" style banter with the PC or one of the less Psycho evil NPC's [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1490-!]
[!-Post: 1491-!][!-Time: 1022794764-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1491]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:lady_alustriel@cablerocket.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]lady alustriel[!-/Name-!][/a] on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 02:39 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] "Settle the hell down you psycho vampire bitch!"  
 
hehe... I like that... [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1491-!]
[!-Post: 1502-!][!-Time: 1022845420-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1502]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:quitchy@yahoo.co.uk"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Quitch[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 04:43 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Look, Valen is evil.  What reason has she to change?  Convincing arguments from the player?  If the player has convincing arguments, why the hell were they serving Bodhi, and why did they take an evil vampire along for the ride?
 
Redemption and de-vamping?  I bloody well hope not.
 
Why a romance?  Put the possibility in there, sure, but then have Valen tell the to go to hell. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1502-!]
[!-Post: 1503-!][!-Time: 1022849680-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1503]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 05:54 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Ha. Valen could wind up being the character that turns several of the BG II NPC interaction conventions on their head:
 
 
  Romance: (ie Aerie, Jaheira, Viconia, Anomen) Have the PC attempt to initiate one, maybe with a couple of dialogues (maybe with some romance music as well, just to provide more credibility to the colossal red herring) that would seem to lead that way, but wind up receiving a harsh and heavy verbal slapdown. I'd like to see this being as scathing as possible. ^_^
   
 
 Redemption: (ie Sarevok, Viconia) Have the protagonist led to believe that this would be possible, through vague, sly hints and by toying with his or her sympathies, by learning tidbits here and there about Valen's background and prior situation to her being Turned, but (ha-HA!) at a crucial point determine that Valen is irredeemably nasty. And liking it. This'd require a fairly long, slow-burning build up, I think, and should definitely be indicative of a manipulative entity.
 
 Reversal of undesirable condition: (ie: Baron Ployer's cursing of Jaheira, Edwin's Nether Scroll mishap) Determine some motivation for Valen to desire devamping, and have her attempts thwarted at every turn, whilst she's teased with the knowledge that the PC's love interest (if applicable) managed a return, and the maddening vague promise that the PC at some indeterminate point in the future may or may not have the power and desire to grant this, forcing Valen to remain loyal and cordial towards the protagonist. The proverbial carrot, forever just out of reach.
 
 So, Valen would wind up with neither romance, redemption or devamping, and the player should wind up with the abiding feeling of being thoroughly used and abused.  
 
 After all, this is evil we're contemplating. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1503-!]
[!-Post: 1504-!][!-Time: 1022858957-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1504]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 08:29 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Minor point: While I totally love Valen's current portrait, if she /is/ going to be the cold blooded killing machine we all know she is, perhaps a less sentimental portrait is in order, and possibly one slightly more vampiric. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1504-!]
[!-Post: 1505-!][!-Time: 1022859086-!]

[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1505]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 08:31 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] If you are going to do a redemption/devamping, make it optional, and then make it possible for her to join a non-evil party, that way it wouldn't be quite so out of character. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1505-!]
[!-Post: 1507-!][!-Time: 1022862559-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1507]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 09:29 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] NO REDEMPTION! IT IS NOW CONSIGNED TO THE RPG CLICHÉ DUSTBIN!
 
 The Heap has spoken! All Praise the Heap!
 
 However, I don't see how the desire for a devamping would be out of character for a downright despicable person, if they find that being a bloodsucker sucks somewhat, actually, and interferes with their dastardly deviousness in unforeseen ways. It'd certainly be an elegant plot device for Valen to stick with the PC 'til the bitter, bitter end (which may or may not actually result in her vampirism being removed). [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1507-!]
[!-Post: 1542-!][!-Time: 1022896414-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1542]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:dash@emerge.net.au"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Jason Whittaker[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 06:53 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I rather like the idea, if she should die while you have a handy Bodhi's heart, and you've decided you'd rather have Valen back than Viconia, that you could do the whole Amaunator temple thing with Valen. Perhaps have her pissed off at being Devamped, and torn from her Mistress's side at wherever vampires go when they die. Devamping is not necessarily out of character for an evil party, but Redemption is, so either leave redemption of Valen out, or allow Valen to enter a good party, and let them try to Redeem her, I think the option should be available, but not forced on a player who likes her evil, or as an evil vampire. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1542-!]
[!-Post: 1543-!][!-Time: 1022903181-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1543]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:jcompton@xnet.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]jcompton[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 08:46 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] But the Amaunator heart plus body plus statue thing only works on the partially vamped. Valen is fully vamped. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1543-!]
[!-Post: 1545-!][!-Time: 1022913231-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1545]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 11:33 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] What Comp-o said. Otherwise anyone and their vampire-slaying mother could try the whole fangs-and-cloak thing for a bit, then with the simple offing of their Matriarch and a handy altar to a faded god, voila! Back to beachwalks at sunrise. Hm, this could give rise to a whole new trend in Faerûn. Vampire tourism. Plus all-you-can-sup blood buffet for the newly initiated.
 
 The redemption notion has to go. Goodly types shouldn't be fraternizing with vampires anyway, let's not encourage them further. Let's concentrate on the evil, people! [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1545-!]
[!-Post: 1577-!][!-Time: 1022969372-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1577]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Kish_K@pacbell.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Kish[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 03:09 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!]
Quote

Valen may enjoy backstabbing grannies during the daytime, and miss it.

 
Now I have this image of Valen going, "Ooh!  The Purifier!  I want to take it into the Order of the Radiant Heart and use it to slaughter the paladins there!  I can use it, I have Use Any Item...What do you mean, I still can't hold it?!" [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1577-!]
[!-Post: 1581-!][!-Time: 1022971703-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1581]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:cfeedback@softhome.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]cfeedback[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 03:48 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] new to this board, love the Valen mod (so far) and all the others here as well. I really don't think that Valen should should be a romance though...I'd much rather see just more general dialogue..ie a couple of unique responses to other NPCs. quests are good too but I don't like the redemption idea myself. in fact I'd rather see an encounter where she does something truly evil and forces the PC to decide whether or not to stick with her/back her up on her decision. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1581-!]
[!-Post: 1583-!][!-Time: 1022973022-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1583]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 04:10 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I like that idea. One of the tradeoffs for Valen's ability would be that the PC has to take responsibility for her actions. It wouldn't even have to be a specially-made encounter; you could just rig certain pre-existing delicate situations where Valen forces the party's hand, making the dialogue go down a certain (and almost certainly evil) route. The other party NPC's could make ever more disgruntled commentary about her actions as time progresses.
 
 A bit like one of the drawbacks of using Lilarcor was it being very, very annoying. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1583-!]
[!-Post: 1586-!][!-Time: 1022978801-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1586]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:jcompton@xnet.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]jcompton[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 05:46 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][blockquote][hr SIZE=0][!-Quote-!][font SIZE=1]Quote:[/font][p]you could just rig certain pre-existing delicate situations where Valen forces the party's hand, making the dialogue go down a certain (and almost certainly evil) route.[!-/Quote-!][hr SIZE=0][/blockquote]
 
And there is precedent for that. Off the top of my head I believe Minsc and Keldorn force at least one dialogue outcome in the core game. I use Keldorn in the same capacity in the Ceara fight in Kelsey. No reason why Valen shouldn't be able to do the same, and it would help accentuate the evil everyone seems to hunger for.[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1586-!]
[!-Post: 1587-!][!-Time: 1022978921-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1587]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:jcompton@xnet.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]jcompton[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 05:48 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][blockquote][hr SIZE=0][!-Quote-!][font SIZE=1]Quote:[/font][p]No reason why Valen shouldn't be able to do the same, and it would help accentuate the evil everyone seems to hunger for.[!-/Quote-!][hr SIZE=0][/blockquote]
 
...although Wes has traditionally shown very little interest in doing interjection dialogue.[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1587-!]
[!-Post: 1592-!][!-Time: 1023009376-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1592]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 02:16 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][blockquote][hr SIZE=0][!-Quote-!][font SIZE=1]Quote:[/font][p]...although Wes has traditionally shown very little interest in doing interjection dialogue.[!-/Quote-!][hr SIZE=0][/blockquote]  
 
 That's a great shame. I've not used Solaufein yet, but I take it that this means that whilst he may have party banter, he'll show little to no interest in group decisions regarding what quests they should take up, nor have any commentary on the people the party may meet.  
 
 That was one of the things I liked most about Kelsey;  he felt fully integrated because he would offer opinion, and there were people that he knew (most notably whats-her-name in Trademeet, the merchant that asks you to do something about the Dao Djinn trade embargo) In short, he felt like part of the world much like a vanilla Bioware NPC. I don't know how appropriate that level of interaction would be for Valen, though; if you're aiming to portray the efficient, silent killer type you certainly don't want her swapping juicy gossip on the Council of Six and offering haircare tips, particularly when she's still plugged into the Bodhi hive-mind.
 
 Hm. I think I've messed up Kelsey's romance now by having my little thief taking control of Mae'var's ex-establishment. C'est la vie. ^_^[!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1592-!]
[!-Post: 1595-!][!-Time: 1023016350-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1595]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:hnuorti@pelu.jns.fi"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Heikki Nuortimo[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 04:12 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I like the idea of Valen romance, but I don't think that redemption or de-vamping is necessarily needed.  
 
And I agree that in any event there should be more dialogue. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1595-!]
[!-Post: 1607-!][!-Time: 1023025763-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1607]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:jcompton@xnet.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]jcompton[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 06:49 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][blockquote][hr SIZE=0][!-Quote-!][font SIZE=1]Quote:[/font][p]
Hm. I think I've messed up Kelsey's romance now by having my little thief taking control of Mae'var's ex-establishment. C'est la vie. ^_^[!-/Quote-!][hr SIZE=0][/blockquote]
 
In Versions [ 1.0.3, yeah, you have. I switched things around so that in 1.0.3 he protests but you can tell him he's got you all wrong. So feel free to cheat J#KelseyRomanceActive back if you like on that basis. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"][!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1607-!]
[!-Post: 1652-!][!-Time: 1023060179-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1652]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:roksaposti@softhome.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Juha[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 04:22 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I haven't even tried this mod yet, but somehow I like the idea of getting personal with a vampire. I think it's the danger of getting one's throat cut open, if you know what I mean. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
It probably shouldn't be a romance, more like a relationship that *could* develop into more intimate levels. One must remember that Valen is a dead girl, although vampires are generally considered passionate creatures (Don't know about AD&D, though. In Hammer films this was of course just used as an excuse to show a lot of cleavage). But she most likely doesn't have feelings like love in great abundance. Use and abuse and throw away sounds like something she (as a vampire) would do.
 
I could imagine the (intimate) relationship with Valen being based on her and the PC feeding upon each other (on Valen's case, probably literally too), satiating their more basic urges. There wouldn't be anything beautiful in it, just primitive emotions. A scene where Valen sinks her teeth into PC's throat in the throes of passionate sex would fit here perfectly. As a side note, she would probably go for either gender, too.
 
Personally, I don't much care for romances/relationships consisting of philosophical debates until the fairer part thinks you're ok, haves sex with you and never speaks again. I'm not suggesting that a Valen romance mod should contain lots of descriptions of hot sex, because they aren't necessary and wouldn't obviously fit in with other romances. But it could, and it should, revolve more on the physical side (done with taste) than on figuring out what Valen's mother did on her 50th birthday. If she ever had one.
 
But the whole concept of her being a vampire opens up so many possibilities that shouldn't be passed.
 
But if Mr. Weimer decides against the romance, I must say that chatter and interaction are never out of style. More of those, please. And definitely NO devamping or redemption. I thought the whole idea of having her in the party is to have a blood sucking fiend in the party, not some wimpy human do-gooder. Yuck. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1652-!]
[!-Post: 1655-!][!-Time: 1023071236-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1655]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Tzar[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 07:27 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Please no.  She may have some romance with others in the past/present/future but please not with the PC.  We have enough romance going on already, could you add something different instead...? [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1655-!]
[!-Post: 1678-!][!-Time: 1023139323-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1678]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:catalyst29@yahoo.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Catalyst[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 02:22 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] First, I'll agree that the "redemption" thing can certainly be left on the shelves, or with the existing NPCs that it applies to. Valen was created to be a 'different' kind of NPC, and that's great.
 
Second, I like two ideas mentioned above--the Divine Intervention and the Paladin trap mentioned by Aelia. I think a quest to redeem Valen could well be a trap set by the Radiant Heart, or at least have that be one aspect of it. When Valen is faced with the possiblity she may never become de-vamped, what is she going to cling to? Well, if Divine Intervention is the only other cure, consider that she is *adventuring with a God in the making*. The possiblity that, as Bhaal reincarnate, the PC might have the power to grant her humanity back would be a great drive to keep her in the party.
 
Third, to be honest, I don't see why we need a de-vamping quest to begin with. Yes, she's ridiculously powerful in melee combat, but by taking away her vamipireness you're taking away what makes her the most unique NPC out there. Limited, but wild and powerful. I like her as is, personally... [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1678-!]
[!-Post: 1693-!][!-Time: 1023204514-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1693]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Homunculus[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 08:28 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][blockquote][hr SIZE=0][!-Quote-!][font SIZE=1]Quote:[/font][p]you could just rig certain pre-existing delicate situations where Valen forces the party's hand, making the dialogue go down a certain (and almost certainly evil) route.[!-/Quote-!][hr SIZE=0][/blockquote]
 
 I'm thinking specifically here of (in the cases of forced decisions that carry the greatest possible magnitude) the tests in Hell. Valen  snatches the Blackrazor and attacks the genie...
 
*bonnnnng* Welcome to Evil alignment! What were you doing taking a vampire along with you in the first place anyway whilst good / neutral, you silly little Bhaalspawn? Now live with the consequences of your decision![!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1693-!]
[!-Post: 1713-!][!-Time: 1023248567-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1713]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Wynne@comcast.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Wynne[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 08:42 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I personally like the idea of a 'romance'--although, certainly one of a different sort than the existing romances. Something dark, haunting, mesmerizing. Preferably with Valen luring the PC to her to use as a blood slave and becoming fond of her 'pet'.  
 
The romance with Viconia is really not very evil to speak of. She says mean things, but a good character could just as easily fall for her as an evil one. Valen feels different as an NPC. If she's made into a romance, I would prefer that she feel different in that respect as well.
 
Devamping and redemption both make me ill. I think having Valen turn good because the PC chose nice options would greatly cheapen who she is and feel quite unrealistic. I like her as a lost obedient slave. I like her as someone who has found her identity in the night and does NOT want to go back, who enjoys the power and bloodlust like a hedonist enjoys fine wine or a worthy companion. Maybe it's just me, but I thought I'd say it for the record. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"] [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1713-!]
[!-Post: 1788-!][!-Time: 1023553911-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1788]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Roc_dibble@hotmail.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Roc_dibble[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 09:31 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] valen is an evil why change it there are very few options to be truely evil in baldurs gate 2 and this is a perfect opportunity to let the dark side loose. evil person evil side quests, one example being valen needs to feed...
the item being dropped is a cool idea but not to bring her back as a human. Christopher lee in dracula and all those cheesey movies crumbled into red dust and came back when blood was poured on it. that sounds far more fun. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1788-!]
[!-Post: 1817-!][!-Time: 1023670611-!]

[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1817]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('* Anonymous *');"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Anonymous[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 05:56 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Here's an idea.  How about a "romance" between Valen and someone other than the PC? And I don't just mean another party member.
 
Perhaps there could be a Necromancer hanging around in the Graveyard, who's become obsessed with Valen and/or becoming a Vampire himself.
 
After several meetings wih him (maybe he follows the party around the place a bit), Valen could either end up killing him or granting his wish.
 
-NiGHTMARE [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1817-!]
[!-Post: 1837-!][!-Time: 1023762478-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1837]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Lord God Jinnau[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 07:27 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Redeeming should be out...i play neutral parties and even then, i wouldn't say redeeming a vampire would be a priority, unless you had a LN honorbound character and she wanted to desperatly be redeemed which IMO would ruin the mod.
 
Devamping her should probably not be done either, unless you either trick her into it or force her into it.  I doubt she would knowingly and willingly submit to devamporization.
 
As to romancing, i think its open, but it should be difficult, very difficult and she should use the PC do aid her along several times to do unspeakable acts and make him feel like a sucker and having him haveto deal with those results.  If he continues to pursue her after several of these incidents, she might depending on some factors decide to change her mind about using the pc (vampires do still have souls, just mainly evil souls, but its possible imo for a vampire given that to fall in love at some level). [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1837-!]
[!-Post: 1843-!][!-Time: 1023833878-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1843]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:peter_angelo@europe.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]I Who Am[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 03:17 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Here's an idea.
 
I do think that a "de-vamping" is completely out of the question. That would completely destroy the concept of Valen. However, a redemption might be considered, depending on how far.
 
A romance with Valen might start out with Valen being intrigued by the seed of evil in the PC (perhaps even require that the PC was of evil alignment to begin with). Now, the tricky thing here is that as a vampire, Valen would be totally and completely devoted to her mistress. In this case Bodhi. The D&D Monster Manual states that 'a vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master's death.'
 
So consider that after Bodhi's death Valen might be at a loss in unlife and be far more open to other people and the world as a whole by not having to abide by Bodhi's every command. I'm not saying she should be all "oh glorious day, the world is a happy place". Just saying she should think along new lines that could lead to a further romance with PC.
 
Maybe a change of alignment could even be considered. Not any good alingment of course. That would be plain stupid. But maybe have her switch to NE or LE. Perhaps even CN (though that might be taking it a step too far).
 
For the romance part as a whole I think that dear Valen overall should be seductive, fickle and, above all else, cruel as only a vampire can be. Basically she should make spiteful Viconia look like a sweet little angel in comparison.
 
And it might be wise to keep the entire romance far less emotional than the rest. After all people, we're dealing with an evil vampire who would always put her own sad excuse for an existence high above all else. Remember that evil and love don't go along. There's a reason for that, and the reason is that love means putting another person's happiness and safety above your own. And evil is basically the complete opposite of that. So: Less emotional; more physical.
__________________________________
 
Those are my ideas anyway. Now go ahead and pick on them. I'm only trying to be productive here. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1843-!]
[!-Post: 1883-!][!-Time: 1024206940-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1883]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Wolfcatbot[!-/Name-!][/a] on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 10:55 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Evil people can love each other unevilly, sir! :D
 
It's as common as a three-tailed kitty, but it can happen. Like with...umm... Sarevok and Tamoko, I suppose? :D
 
Sorry, I never got that far in the first BG [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":("]
 
But yeah, something like that [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"] [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1883-!]
[!-Post: 1887-!][!-Time: 1024220584-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1887]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]gino67[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 02:43 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Valen is way too interesting a character not to have a romance. IMO however this should be a very peculiar romance: not a flirting in which protagonist and NPC discover how much they like each other, but rather a “philosophical” discussion in which they analyse what they both love most: killing. After all we’re talking about a vampire and a wannabe God of Murder… This way one could give a better explanation of what’s IMO a weak spot in the tale, when in the Spellhold Maze Valen is ordered by Bodhi to stay on the protagonist’s side (true, it’s a weak spot of the whole SoA story, why Bodhi should not kill the hero). Valen could slowly realize there’s more power and more opportunity to freely enact her desire for slaughter at the side of the protagonist rather than at Bodhi’s, and with the killing of her mistress she could switch to him. No redemption and devamping in the end, but rather a transcending of mere vampirical status to become something more powerful and lethal: the right hand on the material plane of the new God of Murder, like the Five wanted to be for Bhaal. This way, while the standard romances end in a choice between divinity and love, here the “romance” should have Valen urging the hero to seize his godhood, and the ascension should be the ascension of both. Obviously the story should be structured in such a way, as already suggested by others, that Valen actively forces the protagonist to evil choices in crucial points, and the romance should come to a point where the protagonist either choses to be truly evil or , if foolishly good, is attacked by Valen (just before an already crucial battle maybe). As for the content of the actual musings in the romance, I think ample material can be found in the analysis of the urge to kill by Freud  (Jenseits des Lustprinzips, Eros & Tanathos) or in Sade.. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 1887-!]
[!-Post: 1888-!][!-Time: 1024222018-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1888]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Kish_K@pacbell.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Kish[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 03:06 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I actually like that idea, quite a lot.  The only problem I can see with it is that it's a little like the evil version of the Ascension Sarevok thing. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1888-!]
[!-Post: 1900-!][!-Time: 1024254870-!]

[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1900]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]gino67[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 12:14 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Alas I don't know about the evil Ascension version of Sarevok. I never played through Ascension with an evil protagonist AND Sarevok in my party by now. Another thing about Valen: someone asked for her portrait to be changed and made more vampirish: please DON'T do this! She's perfect this way. That Mona Lisa smile conveys the idea of coolminded cruelty much better than any trivially traditional bloodthirsty maniac face would do. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1900-!]
[!-Post: 1902-!][!-Time: 1024255669-!]

[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1902]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Kish_K@pacbell.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Kish[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, June 16, 2002 - 12:27 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] But you know about Melissan's conversation with Sarevok if he's Good, right?  Now guess what happens if you're Good, you have a high reputation, but he's still Evil. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 1902-!]

[!-Post: 1933-!][!-Time: 1024332368-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST1933]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-

Sir Loin of Beef

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Valen Romances
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2002, 12:43:07 AM »
I followed this from before you moved it here.  I'll tell you straight up, Valen drives me nuts!  Never have I hit pause so many times to keep her from killing herself in battle than any other NPC.  That damn crazy ass script you have her running on is a trip.

You mentioned something of a romance and all I can say is that if you wanna go that route make it an option to de-vamp or just leave her vamped.  At least the option is there instead of "Yeah, you have to make her good."  Let the lady swing both ways depending on what responses are chosen:

Good VS. Evil

The option would be there and everyone is happy. (Right?)

Anywho, I like having her around just to give a little undead level draining BS back in return!                    

Xellos

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Valen Romances
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2002, 09:07:38 AM »
Evil rules, option is always welcome as for wich path should she take (continue as a vamp or be devamped)...anyway Valen is a great char.                    

Dan_Co9

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Valen Romances
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2002, 11:21:09 AM »
I think that it would definitely depend on how credible it all could be made.

Like some other people have said, I don't really envision Valen wanting to make a change of lifestyle just because the PC was nice to her, nor do I envision her spilling her guts to the PC like Viconia does.

I'm not about to say that a redemption is ridiculous and out of the question. I'm a hopeless idealist in that regard.  :P If a way can be figured out to make this happen credibly (perhaps some greater tragedy befalls Valen ... maybe related to her vampirism, or something from her past ... and this could leave her questioning things, etc, etc), it would rule.

But still, I don't think that this character would ever desire to become a better person. Maybe instead she has an alternate motive for becoming devamped, a totally selfish and wicked one, but the PC could see this as a "chance of redemption" and maybe subtly guide it that way. Just a thought.  ;)

Whether or not there's a redemption, I think that the "branch" of her remaining evil should be heavily weighted. You know, it's rather difficult and unlikely that she'd change.

I've gone far over my two cent limit, so I'll pipe down now.                    

Wynne

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Valen Romances
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2002, 02:38:02 PM »
I, personally, really like Valen finding her identity in vampirism (really, that's what makes her unique--why would you want just another human NPC?) and I think evil romance is quite thoroughly covered between Callista, evil Rowan, and the third female being written by drewal.

I'd rather see something unique, if she were expanded--maybe an evil friendship or... well, I don't know that anyone would want it... some kind of a submissive evil romance. (Ugh. UGH. But at least it would be something different, because the other three and Viconia are all ~very~ strong personalities... and it does seem to fit with Valen's profile, almost; her loyalty and deference to Bodhi transferring to the PC.)                    

Artemidore

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Valen Romances
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2002, 03:02:45 PM »
Well, if you want to give Valen a redeeming option, why not? Let us have a large choice concerning the NPCs' alignments. But then, someone will have to write a damnation option for Solaufein. And for Kelsey, and for Tashia too. You know, balance and stuff like that. Three evil characters that could become good-aligned, and three good characters that could become evil-aligned...

OK, I'm joking. I can't imagine Kelsey giving up the good path! He is perfect, and I don't want him to change!                    

Offline jcompton

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Valen Romances
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2002, 04:25:58 PM »
Mom, how did you know about this forum? :)                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2002, 04:27:43 PM »
Anyway. I have been considering a "corruption" angle for my upcoming deArnise Romance, since I see Nalia, sweet, well-meaning girl though she is, as having built a rather rigid belief system on a pretty shaky foundation. Not sure if I'll go through with it, though.                    
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Kish

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Valen Romances
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2002, 04:41:19 PM »
Neat.

It would be nice to be able to corrupt a romance interest (other than Viconia), and to have a romance where corrupting that person is an optional extra rather than the point of the romance (as it is with Viconia).  (Of course, Rowan will fit both.)                    

Lucythebeast

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Valen Romances
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2002, 07:15:50 PM »
A submissive, eh? Heh... Oh, you give me such ideas, Wynne. :D                    

Guest

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Valen Romances
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2002, 05:53:56 PM »
Heh, I actually came here to suggest an option for Valen to be unturned, with a romance angle. But like someone else said, it would be great to have a choice, so you wouldn't be stuck with someting you didn't want.
                   

justaguy

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Valen Romances
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2002, 09:08:06 PM »
Personally, I think that Valen should remain the evil and pycho vampire she is, I mean, that's what makes Valen the unique npc she is.  Secondly, I agree with the aforementioned "no more of the emotional stuff, make the romance physical".  I think that would fit to the evil personalities of Valen and the PC.  For once I'd like to see a romance which the PC and npc STAY evil instead of eventually "repenting of their sins and becoming good-two-shoes."                    

Kish

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Valen Romances
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2002, 09:52:28 PM »
One thing occurs to me, a suggestion:

If Valen is in a romance with CharName, the scene with her and Bodhi at the asylum should go differently--something like Bodhi ordering Valen to return to her side, and Valen protesting CharName's death, would be better.  As it currently stands, even an evil PC might balk at staying involved with someone who has no sense of loyalty to him/her.                    

Krimmy

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Valen Romances
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2002, 10:29:15 AM »
I think a romance would be nice, fleshing out her character more adding a redemption option. What I like about this is the options and some of the posts here seem to want to limit the players potential options concerning a romance. I think if you decide to do this have as many options available to everyone, make sure she can romance either gender, have the options of keeping her on the evil path and de-vamping her and taking a good path.

People that want to play her as evil can, those that want to redeem her can those that want to romance her can.
 
Options are good, I mean where's the harm.



                   

putridongoingstench@

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Valen Romances
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2002, 05:19:38 AM »
Personally I believe that if valen is going to be de-vamped then she needs something to make her worth while to the party. Why not add some of he vampric powers into a dagger of some kind. Instead of completely getting rid of her vamprisim it's transfered into this dagger. And the more experience she gets the more powerful the dagger gets until her vamprisim restores itself back into valen if she doesn't learn to control it..
It's just a rough idea, kind of hard to explain exactly what I mean, but you get the idea.


-Sent
putridongoingstench@hotmail.com
                   

Offline Quitch

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Valen Romances
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2002, 06:26:26 AM »
Why does Valen need to change?  Why not have Valen change the views of the player?                    
Past: Ascension
Present: Return to Windspear
Future: Imoen Relationship
"Perfection has no deadline"

Gospel

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Valen Romances
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2002, 09:55:08 AM »
Quote
Why does Valen need to change?  Why not have Valen change the views of the player?
Like if the PC is a not so nice evil guy, missus Valen will make him a polite, nice evil guy! Right Quitchy? :D

Offline Quitch

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Valen Romances
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2002, 03:30:49 PM »
If they already shared the same views, then the player shouldn't be changing Valen anyway, thus the point is moot.                    
Past: Ascension
Present: Return to Windspear
Future: Imoen Relationship
"Perfection has no deadline"

Gospel

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Valen Romances
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2002, 07:34:03 PM »
Oh... yikes :D

Well.... if my pallydin fell for Valen, and she made him into an evil gorgondola, he'd still be nice, right Quitchy? ?:)

Just..... evil nice :D

Like with those Svirfneblin guys, he'd say "May I please kill you, dwarf sirs?" :D

Torne

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Valen Romances
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2002, 05:29:47 PM »
Paladins, romancing, Valen? Paladins, grouping with Valen?

 :blink:

Am I just missing something here?                    

Gospel

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Valen Romances
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2002, 07:01:38 PM »
Quote
Paladins, romancing, Valen? Paladins, grouping with Valen?

 :blink:

Am I just missing something here?
Missing, sir? *purrs* :)

Missus Valen is soooooo nice! She'd be my idol, if I didn't have two already :)

Torne

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Valen Romances
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2002, 09:36:46 PM »
Quote
Missus Valen is soooooo nice! She'd be my idol, if I didn't have two already :)

too much catnip is a bad thing.....                    

Gospel

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Valen Romances
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2002, 10:01:16 PM »
*spin* Hmm? :)

Userunfriendly

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Valen Romances
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2002, 10:44:24 PM »
now, i have tried this, but it doesnt work the way it should....

 :angry:

but i once sk'ed a pally pc chavaier as lawful evil.....

should turn on turn undead, and blow herslef up, but did not work....

so a sked evil pally would be just right for a valen romance, eh???
 :D  :rolleyes:  :unsure:                    

Gospel

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Valen Romances
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2002, 11:21:33 PM »
Quote
so a sked evil pally would be just right for a valen romance, eh???
 :D
How about an Anti-Paladin, sir? ?:)

 

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