Author Topic: ToB Interjections For Quests  (Read 9346 times)

Offline weimer

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ToB Interjections For Quests
« on: July 23, 2002, 08:59:36 PM »
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[!-Post: 2584-!][!-Time: 1027295737-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2584]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]starrie[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 04:55 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] just wanted to let you know how much I'm enjoying the new SoA quest comments for sola..and I'm wondering if your planning on doing something similiar for ToB...I can see him having something to say about marlow, sendai...several things in watchers keep..etc....also it is odd that he doesn't have anything to say to me about the pc's decision to be a god or not...especially after the lovely epilogues..especially the one if the pc choses to be a god..at the end of the epilogue it says "Why did I let her go?" well my answer to that was...why didn't you say anything at the time?  lol! As you can see Sola has without a doubt become one of my favorite characters..great job!! (perhaps he could have a conversation with the master wraith? about phaere?) just a thought..thanks! [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2584-!]
[!-Post: 2585-!][!-Time: 1027295795-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2585]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 04:56 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] There could be ToB questy interjections. Would anyone else be interested? There have already been quite a few votes for the Master Wraith and Almost-a-God chats. [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2585-!]
[!-Post: 2587-!][!-Time: 1027297139-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2587]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 05:18 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Would like them myself, possibly some interjections for the quests in Saradush and/or Amtekeran (however its spelled).
 
Also possibly disable Solaufein and Edwin's Dimension Door abilities in Saradush, there's a very bad side effect to teleportation magics there after all [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"].
 
And of course, my typical request, have some of the advice be 'bad' advice given the situation.  Course thinking of the limited number of quests in ToB, not a whole lot of quests.  One thing would like though would not to have too many interjections.  As it is, very few of the Bio NPCs interject on the quests in ToB, and it's more banter based for interaction. [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2588-!][!-Time: 1027297836-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2588]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]starrie[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 05:30 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] oh..one thing I forgot.. a conversation with volo comes to mind as well...thanks [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2588-!]
[!-Post: 2589-!][!-Time: 1027300169-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2589]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:haber_adam@hotmail.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Adam Haber (Alson)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 06:09 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I strongly recommend adding interjections for ToB - After all, most players do most of the quests in chapter 2, thus not enjoying most of Sola comments.
Most of them also plan to take him into ToB - so i think adding ToB interjections would be important. [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2592-!][!-Time: 1027302604-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2592]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Tsuru[!-/Name-!][/a] on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 06:50 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I would chime in here but I think I've driven Westley insane enough for a while [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"] [!-/Text-!] [p]
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[!-Post: 2604-!][!-Time: 1027326140-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2604]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 01:22 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] @Alson --
 
Now that Sola mod has more interjections in SoA, one shouldn't, in my humble opinion, do the majority of quests in Chapter 2, but postpone them for after having Solaufein joined. One can go through Brynlaw, Spellhold and Underdark with less powerful equipment than let's say Carsomyr, Flail of Ages, etc. :-)
 
Coming back to Wesley's question:
 
Should Solaufein had interjections with Melissan, Sendai, etc., it would be really nice. Why, for example, not commenting on Melissan's voice and attitude when the party arrives in Saradush? Melissan's voice was what made one suspicious right from the start about she being not-exactly-what-she-pretends-to-be. Also: a conversation with Master Wraith about Phaere would be great!
 
As for the suggestion of Solaufein giving "bad" advices, I'm not sure I would agree, for it doesn't seem typical of him. Even in cases where the pc character might decide otherwise, Solaufein's questions and suggestions have been --so far-- in consistency with what we see as being his character. But even if there are moments where he appears uncertain in specific matters, this "section" is over by the end of SoA, when he is granted her godess gifts. Therefore, I can't see how a turn to "bad" advice could be justified. I am just skeptical about it.
 
@Reiella Darksythe
 
]As it is, very few of the Bio NPCs interject on the quests in ToB, and it's more banter based for interaction.
 
You are correct, and that's what surprised me most when I first played ToB. Isn't really weird? I mean, according to the plot, the situation in ToB gets more serious than ever before. However one notices NPCs expressing very little or not at all their opinions. It seems as if all of a sudden they lose all the "flesh and blood" they had been granted back in SoA.
 
Just my thoughts.
 
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2609-!][!-Time: 1027346380-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2609]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:jcompton@xnet.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]jcompton[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 06:59 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][blockquote][hr SIZE=0][!-Quote-!][font SIZE=1]Quote:[/font][p]As for the suggestion of Solaufein giving "bad" advices, I'm not sure I would agree, for it doesn't seem typical of him.[!-/Quote-!][hr SIZE=0][/blockquote]
 
Getting sub-optimal advice is part of life... although if you're saying that Weimer's Solaufein seems a little too perfect, I agree. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"] (and if memory serves he does give at least one sub-optimal piece of advice in the SOA interjects.)
 
[blockquote][hr SIZE=0][!-Quote-!][font SIZE=1]Quote:[/font][p]It seems as if all of a sudden they lose all the "flesh and blood" they had been granted back in SoA.[!-/Quote-!][hr SIZE=0][/blockquote]
 
That's what happens when your design timeline is "Have this game completely plotted and scripted before you finish this can of Pringles."[!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2610-!][!-Time: 1027347629-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2610]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:Kish_K@pacbell.net"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Kish[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 07:20 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Yes, he is overly trusting in at least one place.  (Notably, a place where Valen recognizes a trap.) [!-/Text-!] [p]
[!-/Post: 2610-!]

[!-Post: 2616-!][!-Time: 1027361133-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2616]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 11:05 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] @jcompton --
 
]Getting sub-optimal advice is part of life...  
 
I fully agree..
 
]although if you're saying that Weimer's Solaufein seems a little too perfect, I agree.
 
Perfect? I don't know. In one of my descriptions of him the noun "cosmos" was included among others. :-D  
 
](and if memory serves he does give at least one sub-optimal piece of advice in the SOA interjects.)  
 
Mmm. I haven't experienced all of his interjections yet, so I don't have an opinion really. However, there are some "grey" areas in the newer version, related to the "consistency" I mentioned above. Anyway. When I finish SoA I'll write something on these... inconsistencies --from a pure theoritical point of view, that is.
 
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2621-!][!-Time: 1027362747-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2621]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Reiella Darksythe[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 11:32 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Haven't had the chance to go through the interjections with Sola yet (just restarted a Valen-eebil party to go through and try the Improvd Irenicus), so I couldn't tell really.
 
Sub-optimal advice is just something that is nice to have to give the characters a more believable personality.
 
As for why the NPCs got quiet interjection wise in ToB, it's probably more so a case of them recogonizing you're the one with Divine Blood flowing in your Veins.  They even stop leavign due to 'bad' reputation at that point.  Prolly more so that it got rushed, although maybe even more so is that there are so very few quests in ToB to begin with.
 
Saradush has the most, except for maybe Watcher's Keep depending on how you view them. [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2624]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 11:52 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] @Reiella Darksythe --
 
If we discuss why NPCs stopped voicing opinions in ToB, I'm sure we will agree with jcompton's realistic explanation. It's just that from a role playing view, I can't justify this kind of muteness.
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2624-!]
[!-Post: 2635-!][!-Time: 1027373921-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2635]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('* Anonymous *');"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Anonymous[!-/Name-!][/a] on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 02:38 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] Bah I've said so before I'll say so again. Solaufein is a) annoyingly "good" for a dark elf and B) hes too loquatious for my tastes =P I'd like to see him interject whenever other npcs do. [!-/Text-!] [p]

[!-/Post: 2635-!]
[!-Post: 2655-!][!-Time: 1027412438-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2655]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 01:20 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I am sure we are all entitled to our opinions. I, for one, like Solaufein more than any other NPC for the same reason you are finding him annoying: he is the most "alive" of all. And I enjoy the fact that he makes a differece. [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
As for the issue of how can he be such a "goody-goody" guy when he's a "dark elf", I believe it's clear from his first lines, when he admits to be a follower of another goddess. In my humble opinion, this consists an evidence of him being an exception.
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2656-!][!-Time: 1027439038-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2656]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('* Anonymous *');"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Anonymous[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 08:43 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] An exception certainly, but living in that enviroment of constant betrayal and hatred. Along with following quite dastardly orders (he was more than willing to kill the underground gnomes if you didn't convince him you could do it alone) would change a person. Worshipping a good godess doesn't necessarily make you good. Plus hes always reciting poetry for godssake! [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2659-!][!-Time: 1027444563-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2659]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.')" onMouseOver="window.status = 'The e-mail address and profile information for the individual posting this message is not available.'; return true"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Aubrey[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 10:16 am:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] ](he was more than willing to kill the underground gnomes if you didn't convince him you could do it alone)  
 
I hate that, but I don't recall him being "more than willing" to kill those little guys, on the contrary: on the pretext that this is a petty task, he tried to avoid it.
 
]Worshipping a good godess doesn't necessarily make you good.  
 
No, it doesn't, but there are more hard evidence for you: his second in turn dialogue with the pc character, concerning pc's pretence of being a Drow while in Ust Natha. He says something about *knowing* how it feels for he was hidding his own feelings and disagreement with what his fellow Drows were doing.
 
]Plus hes always reciting poetry for godssake!  
 
Lovely, don't you think? [img SRC="http://manju.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"]
 
 
Cheers [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2666-!][!-Time: 1027464683-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2666]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="javascript:alert('* Anonymous *');"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Anonymous[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 03:51 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] The drow in the solaufein mod would insult the matron mother to her face then force you to fight her. Face it, despite all his "hidden good" hes still pragmatic, and as such should realize you can't be good all the time. And the poetry bit seems more like a "Hey look how talented I am worship me!" type gamble than anything spontaneous. [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2672-!][!-Time: 1027468164-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2672]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:artemidore@caramail.com"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Artemidore[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 04:49 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!] I like Solaufein a lot, I think Westley Weimer really managed to create an interesting character, but I guess some people could think that he is just a little bit annoying. Well, doesn't he speak always about philosophy, poetry, and stuff like that? That's what Westley wanted to do, and I find it quite nice. I don't see how quoting poems in the middle of a conversation could seem spontaneous: nobody do that in our world, but that was very nice to have a character that is different from people that you could meet in life. Different, and maybe a little bit more romantic ;-)
 
Aubrey, I just wanted to tell you that your idea of commenting Melissan's voice would be strange for a foreign user of the game, though it is surely very interesting for an English/American player. In the French translation (yes, I'm french, and I'm sorry for the mistakes in my messages) Mel's voice is quite normal, and I guess it's another reason to say that bioware was a little bit lazy with the translations. But anyway, I really feel the same way as you about Solaufein. Maybe we could create a fan club? ;-)) [!-/Text-!] [p]

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[!-Post: 2674-!][!-Time: 1027469563-!]
[table BGCOLOR=#ccccff WIDTH=100% BORDER=1 BORDERCOLOR=#0000ff] [tr][td][font FACE="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"][font SIZE=-1] [a NAME=POST2674]  By [!-Email-!][a HREF="mailto:weimer@cs.berkeley.edu"][!-/Email-!][!-Name-!]Westley Weimer (Admin)[!-/Name-!][/a] on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 05:12 pm:[/font][/td][/tr][/table][p] [!-Text-!][font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]That's what Westley wanted to do, and I find it quite nice. I don't see how quoting poems in the middle of a conversation could seem spontaneous: nobody do that in our world,[/font][/font]
 
Interestingly enough, I do things like that in real life. For example, I can quote the Emily Dickinson poem off the top of my head if the conversation calls for it. However, it probably would still sound strange to you. :-)
 
[font SIZE="-2"][font COLOR="0000ff"]And the poetry bit seems more like a "Hey look how talented I am worship me!" type gamble than anything spontaneous.[/font][/font]
 
Maybe it is when I do it as well -- it's hard to be self-reflective. However, among the people I chat around with in real life, making and catching obscure references is considered a fun time. That and playing bridge. Anyway.  
 
There are quite a few people out there who think Solaufein should be ... different. More pragmatic, lawful neutral, more firey, who knows.  
 
All I can say is that if you can get a handle on "my" Solaufein enough to know that he's not exactly what you wanted, then I must have done at least a half-decent job characterizing him. I'm just sorry that it wasn't the character you wanted.  
 
BTW, Artemidore -- do you like the music of Francis Cabrel, Charles Aznavour or Notre Dame de Paris? Those are probably my favorites in the French Music World, but it's always nice to get suggestions from others.[!-/Text-!] [p]

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Offline jcompton

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ToB Interjections For Quests
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2002, 11:41:29 PM »
Quote

For example, I can quote the Emily Dickinson poem off the top of my head if the conversation calls for it.

BTW, Artemidore -- do you like the music of Francis Cabrel, Charles Aznavour or Notre Dame de Paris?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This from a guy who doesn't know who Aqualung or Sussudio are.                    



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Aubrey

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ToB Interjections For Quests
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2002, 04:15:56 AM »
@Anonymous --
 
Quote
And the poetry bit seems more like a "Hey look how talented I am worship me!" type gamble than anything spontaneous.

For me it could seem either like, "Hey! I'm giving my performance, so, please pay attention", or "I'm just reciting poetry" Moreover, we would discuss his/her "talent" if he/she was the one to write it, arguing about it based on personal experience, poetics theory, etc.
 
In my humble opinion, and strictly focused on the original Sola mod, not on the additional 20% of SoA interjections (and I have my reasons for this distinction), Solaufein is a unique NPC. And in a way, we are almost "warned" of him when he joins our party: he brings a book of poetry and philosophy with him. It speaks for itself.
 
I understand you don't like Solaufein, and there is nothing wrong about it. I, for one, don't like half of the standard NPCs of the game. :) However, I stand for Weimer's right to bring to life a different one.

@ Artemidore --


Quote
I don't see how quoting poems in the middle of a conversation could seem spontaneous: nobody do that in our world, but that was very nice to have a character that is different from people that you could meet in life.
There was a time, not so long ago, when people did that, and till the first half of the 20th century romantism was rather a reality than archaeology. The reasoning that noboby does that in our world --and apparently you mean nowadays-- means nothing to me. That's too bad. They should. And I return a question (not personally to you, of course; I understand we share the same opinion): have we seen anyone in "real life" casting Fireballs and summonning Devas? Why this is considered "natural" and Solaufein's personality is at least "unnatural"?
 
Generally speaking, I see a problem here: more and more people are asking for something "close to real life" when it comes to a character (even in literature). May I ask why, ladies and gentlemen, you would like something like that? When I "meet" a character who differs, and I like, the question I pose to myself then, it is, "Why we don't meet such kind of people in real life", instead of, "Oh, what a jerk! Nobody behaves like that!"
 

Quote
In the French translation (yes, I'm french, and I'm sorry for the mistakes in my messages) Mel's voice is quite normal, and I guess it's another reason to say that bioware was a little bit lazy with the translations.But anyway, I really feel the same way as you about Solaufein. Maybe we could create a fan club?

I'm not a native American or British myself either, but your English seem pretty good to me.

Too bad they didn't reproduce her meaness in the foreign versions, but I see your point. As for the fan club, I think we have already founded it, but probably we haven't realised it yet. :)

@Wesley --

Quote
All I can say is that if you can get a handle on "my" Solaufein enough to know that he's not exactly what you wanted, then I must have done at least a half-decent job characterizing him. I'm just sorry that it wasn't the character you wanted.

--and I am terribly sorry for surely I am not the person your imagination thinks I am.  :)  Nevertheless, I can live with the finding that one can't satisfy the demands of the whole game (in this case) world population.
 
@jcompton --

I assure you: the tone of her voice made me suspicious of her right from the start. Anyway. Of course, this is just my opinion.

Cheers
 
                   

Artemidore

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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2002, 05:37:44 AM »
:o  Well, Westley, what can I tell you... Notre Dame de Paris! Three years ago I thought I would become mad: it was impossible to switch on the radio without hearing "Belle"... urgh... luckily, this time is over.  But if you want to chat about French music, no problem.

Anyway, I was wondering what Eilistrae was thinking about the fact that Solaufein is helping a child of Bhaal. OK, she's not his mother, but will she give her presents to him if he is having a romance with the new god of murder? I saw that you were already planning a little meeting with Lloth, so maybe it is enough for drow Goddesses in ToB.  But it would be perhaps possible to have just a little Alignment/Rep check before the Moon reward scene, so that we don't have the impression that Eilistrae is helping a really evil PC by giving her reward. Solaufein could be mistaking about the PC's nature, but not his goddess, don't you think so?                    



[!--EDIT|Artemidore|Jul 24 2002, 07:14 PM--]

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2002, 01:46:02 PM »
Quote
I assure you: the tone of her voice made me suspicious of her right from the start. Anyway. Of course, this is just my opinion.
                   Yes, I do see what you mean. I actually was spoiled on it before I began playing TOB so it's hard to say for sure but I don't think it should have taken a rocket scientist PC to figure out what was going on in that game.                    
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Aubrey

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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2002, 01:54:59 PM »
I didn't mean that it was hard to understand. And, sorry for my insistence and for repeating myself.                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2002, 02:15:54 PM »
I knew what you meant. I was just saying that honestly, I couldn't evaluate whether Mel sounded suspicious or not because I already knew she was the baddy the first time I played.

                   
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Dan_Co9

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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2002, 03:28:11 PM »
Well, I wasn't spoiled as to Melissan's true identity ... and I'll agree that it was obvious. The way she talked, and that sour little face of hers ... eck ... she reeked of trouble from the beginning.  :angry:                    



[!--EDIT|Dan_Co9|Jul 24 2002, 05:28 PM--]

reiella

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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2002, 04:22:11 PM »
That she had a portrait meant she was either 1) a joinable character (and we already were exposed to Sarevok), or 2) an important enemy :).                    

Kish

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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2002, 03:08:53 AM »
Anonymous:
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hes too loquatious for my tastes =P I'd like to see him interject whenever other npcs do. [!-/Text-!]

Aubrey:
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I, for one, like Solaufein more than any other NPC for the same reason you are finding him annoying: he is the most "alive" of all.

Now this is interesting.  You're saying that Solaufein speaks more than any other NPC?

My (subjective, unscientific) impression is that he's still one of the quietest NPCs.  Out of curiosity, Wes, or Jason, or anyone else, do you by any chance have numbers on how many times Solaufein interjects, as compared to others?                    

Lump

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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2002, 08:47:52 AM »
I just write down the Solaufein Romance and the Anomen one. In my group there are Jan Jansen, too. So I cant compare a bit.

Solaufein talks a lot. Not only to me, but also to other people (enemies for example). Look and the long discusion he have with Drizzt ....
And if Sola talks, than its not just "2words" - its really a good, long discusion.                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2002, 09:25:04 AM »
I did a VERY rough count (scrolling and eyeballing) and Solaufein seems to have roughly 30 interject points, plus the ToL, beating Irenicus, and Hell arrival. Some are single lines, but some others are him bantering back and forth. The .TRA file has references (for both Solaufein and the other parties in the interjection) up to 310, but there are gaps. So he's introducing 200+ new lines for everyone.

An imperfect comparison is to look at the xxxxxxJ dialogue files for the Bioware NPCs. A quick glance over the xxxxxxJ dialogue files for the Bioware NPCs shows that they usually have at least 200 lines in there. Now, those DO include their quest-related dialogue, so you'd have to count Solaufein's spider/moonblade type items to be fair, but I think on the whole it's clear that Solaufein doesn't have more lines than even some of the modest interjectors like Edwin. (to say nothing of Jaheira, whose J file is 500+ states in length.)

However, (and stop me if you've heard this before), some of Solaufein's interjects are more epic than the rest of the gang, perhaps that's why some think he's talking more. There's a strong dose of verses, the Leaflord takes a moment out of his very busy schedule to pass a note from Eilistraee to Solaufein...

                   
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2002, 12:26:36 PM »
Let me make a prologue first:  Anonymous and someone else (also, Anonymous) back at the old discussion board had stated that Solaufein talks too much, "interjecting his opinions EVERYWHERE" taking, thus, out of the pc character the possibility of choosing the evil path. He had also asked if there was "a way to tone him down".

Personally I don't believe that Solaufein talks more than the others; I believe, however, that many of us think Solaufein has more lines for the very reason jcompton pointed out: his lines are more epic.

Another reason for this impression might be that Solaufein interjects where other NPCs *don't*. An example coming to my mind is his interjection with Raelis Sai or, with Lady Yuth. Everyone remains silent but Solaufein. (Well, there is also Kelsey who talks with Lady Yuth, but this is part of his story, I pressume. If I'm wrong, please correct me.)

When I'm saying Solaufein seems to me the most "alive" character, my opinion is biased, based firstly on what I gave above as "another reason", and secondly on my feeling that he differs. You will probably argue that any NPC differs from another, and I will agree. His difference, as I perceive it, is related to what he says, what things make him skeptical, etc.

If I was asked whom I think to be as the most loquacious from all NPCs I would point Jan Jansen right away! :)

Regarding Solaufein's "long discussion" with Drizzt, mentioned by Lump: It is one of the fully justifiable interjections in the game, in my humble opinion.  And I will give reasons for this, and the rest of Solaufein's interjections, when I finish a commentary I'm preparing.  It will take some time though --deadlines at work and the likes, you see...  :(


                     

starrie

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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2002, 03:59:57 PM »
In my opinon...the commentary and interactions given by solaufein are a welcome addition and should be encouraged. It gives a greater depth to the character..I feel like he is actually an important part of the party now (not that he wasn't before...his skills as both fighter and mage are nothing to take for granted) and not just a hired hand. Just my humble opinon.                    

reiella

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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2002, 04:12:47 PM »
Part of that also is considering what exactly you consider interjection.

The romance options comments when you go to the Madam in the Copper Coronet, or the beggar in the Government District?  Their one liners with 'random' NPCs without names.  The comments from the little dwarf that runs around commenting on everyone's fate in the Docks.

Also another big part of it the interjections is probably that Solaufein (and Valen) don't use IsValidForDialogue, so they're never skipped (unless they happen to be mazed at the time or some other silliness).  Overall a good thing, because I miss much of the comments people make.

Although one thing I've noticed is many of the bio npcs have interjections 'after-the-fact' (Korgan with the dying Harper,Viconia with Drizzt).  And also many of those interjections are the NPCs arguing with each other :) (or interjecting into each other's romances in the cases of Vic, Jaheira, and Aerie), like Viconia's comment to Jaheira about having a chance to be one of her betters.                    

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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2002, 01:34:16 AM »
Have you seen Anomen fighting with Kelsey over pc's love? It's a sight to see! :lol:


Cheers                    

Lump

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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2002, 10:24:52 PM »
@starrie:
"In my opinon...the commentary and interactions given by solaufein are a welcome addition and should be encouraged. It gives a greater depth to the character.."

YESSSSS  :D  my opinion.

I play TOB at the moment and somehow I hate Westley a bit ;-) :
I dont like TOB anymore. There arent so many comments of Sola anymore and so im missing him and its not really fun to play TOB anymore.
                   

starrie

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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2002, 04:43:21 PM »
@lump

"I play TOB at the moment and somehow I hate Westley a bit ;-) :
I dont like TOB anymore. There arent so many comments of Sola anymore and so im missing him and its not really fun to play TOB anymore. "
 

I agree....between sola being silent and kelsey not having anything to say yet..I'm kind stuck with tashia..although she gets alot more fun in ToB.(and of course the bioware npc's) It is too bad forgotten wars decided to make us choose between kelsey and sola..(it is optional now but won't be when ToB comes out) I'm not sure I'll ever see the new kelsey dialogues. Sola is just too much fun to give up  ;)                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2002, 05:20:47 PM »
Quote
It is too bad forgotten wars decided to make us choose between kelsey and sola..(it is optional now but won't be when ToB comes out) I'm not sure I'll ever see the new kelsey dialogues. Sola is just too much fun to give up  ;)
Eh?

You can always have Kelsey and Solaufein in the party together, unless you install the Kelsey-is-aware-of-the-PC-screwing-around-on-him module and choose to screw around on him!

And the Kelsey/Solaufein romance conflict will remain optional, although Kelsey and I have always and will continue to cast our evil eyes at such "roleplaying."                    



[!--EDIT|jcompton|Jul 31 2002, 12:21 AM--]
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Aubrey

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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2002, 05:59:47 PM »
Quote
And the Kelsey/Solaufein romance conflict will remain optional, although Kelsey and I have always and will continue to cast our evil eyes at such "roleplaying."

And not only at "roleplaying, if I may the guess. :)


Cheers                    

starrie

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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2002, 07:43:10 PM »
@jcompton

my mistake..I thought  you were going to make the kelsey/sola romance thing nonoptional for ToB..sorry for the misunderstanding...  :o                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2002, 08:18:51 PM »
Quote
@jcompton

my mistake..I thought  you were going to make the kelsey/sola romance thing nonoptional for ToB..sorry for the misunderstanding...  :o
                   No, the Trademeet Accords of 2002, signed by Weimer and myself, explicitly require that Solaufein interference be user-uninstallable.

                   
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Offline weimer

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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2002, 11:22:29 PM »
Quote
An imperfect comparison is to look at the xxxxxxJ dialogue files for the Bioware NPCs. A quick glance over the xxxxxxJ dialogue files for the Bioware NPCs shows that they usually have at least 200 lines in there. Now, those DO include their quest-related dialogue, so you'd have to count Solaufein's spider/moonblade type items to be fair, but I think on the whole it's clear that Solaufein doesn't have more lines than even some of the modest interjectors like Edwin. (to say nothing of Jaheira, whose J file is 500+ states in length.)
Here's a slightly more precise calculation. After installing Solaufein, I used WeiDU to generate TRA files for all dialogue said by Edwin and all dialogue said by Solaufein. Note that this uniformly ignores all dialogue said by other NPCs to  that person (so it skips the Leaflord's lines to Solaufein and Salvanas's come-on to Edwina, but includes both of their respective replies).

Here are the file sizes:

-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None        13024 Aug  1 22:03 BEDWIN.TRA
-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None         03527 Aug  1 22:03 BEDWINWO.TRA
-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None        16547 Aug  1 22:03 EDWIN.TRA
-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None        26361 Aug  1 22:03 EDWINJ.TRA
-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None         00952 Aug  1 22:03 EDWINP.TRA
-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None         02868 Aug  1 22:03 EDWINW.TRA
-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None        86805 Aug  1 22:04 SOLA.TRA


To sum up, that's about 518 strings totalling 63279 characters for Edwin and  736 strings totalling 86805 characters for Solaufein.

Thus: "I think on the whole it's clear that Solaufein does have more lines than some of the more modest interjectors like Edwin."

I think the common conception that Solaufein doesn't have much to say is a relic of the past. Between the slowly-creeping romance dialogues and the interjections, he's quite competitive.                    

Offline jcompton

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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2002, 11:27:49 PM »
Quote
Here's a slightly more precise calculation. After installing Solaufein, I used WeiDU to generate TRA files for all dialogue said by Edwin and all dialogue said by Solaufein.

Ah, that's smarter than what I did.

Quote
Thus: "I think on the whole it's clear that Solaufein does have more lines than some of the more modest interjectors like Edwin."

I stand corrected. I really wasn't trying to put the guy down.

Quote
I think the common conception that Solaufein doesn't have much to say is a relic of the past.

Well, yeah, I was reacting to the idea that he was saying too much out of all proportion. But I'll just shut up now.                    
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Offline jcompton

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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2002, 02:25:27 PM »
Quote
-rw-r--r--    1 weimer   None        86805 Aug  1 22:04 SOLA.TRA

I think the common conception that Solaufein doesn't have much to say is a relic of the past. Between the slowly-creeping romance dialogues and the interjections, he's quite competitive.
                   Incidentally, because of the pretty much all-purpose nature of sola.dlg, you have a unique opportunity to corner the market on Watcher's Keep interjections available during SOA. (well, unique to you, not unique to Solaufein, since you could do the same with Valen.)

Virtually all, if not all, of the interjections in WK are socked into the TOB xxxxxxxJs, and I'm doing the same with Kelsey unless I get really bored and decide to edit the code to also include SOA versions. (Me, I think part of the fun of WK is going through, fight fight fight, get a new item, then whisk it back to Cespy to see what he can do with it, so I like to save it, but if folks want to, say, tackle the Keep as soon as they get Solaufein...)

                   
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