Author Topic: Planescape: Torment  (Read 46498 times)

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2004, 02:13:46 PM »
Actually yeah, the non-chosen-by-me PC thing was kind of irritating.  Luckily for me, I went ahead and changed TNO's avatar to that of a Githzerai townsfolk (the one with the boots and the knife), then I went around backstabbing people like crazy with Annah.  Was muy fun, si?
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2004, 02:28:14 PM »
I don't mind rigidly defined PCs... but TNO is very hard to relate to.
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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2004, 03:06:32 PM »
Hi, I am Domi and I also do not like PST.  ;D

Heh, it's like PST haters anonymous!

A friend gave me a copy and I'm slogging through it right now.  I will respectfully withhold my final judgement until I'm finished.  Er, it does end, doesn't it?

Uhm, I wish I had your willpower...I could not make it past Mortuary.

Offline chaz58

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2004, 03:15:33 PM »
I don't mind rigidly defined PCs... but TNO is very hard to relate to.

Really? I find the never-ending grind of death and resurrection to be remarkably similar to my own life...

Offline Echon

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2004, 05:07:43 PM »
Of course, JC is making an extremely exaggerated example to get the point across. You know, it is more related to his disliking the game than actual ingame experience.

And no, I do not want to start an annoying debate about that is RAEL ROELPLAYIN and what is not.

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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2004, 05:56:57 PM »
PST sucks. Simple as that. I never cared for that game world to begin with.
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Offline japheth

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2004, 06:01:36 PM »
Seaquest is the best game out there.

Offline jcompton

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2004, 06:17:00 PM »
Of course, JC is making an extremely exaggerated example to get the point across. You know, it is more related to his disliking the game than actual ingame experience.

And no, I do not want to start an annoying debate about that is RAEL ROELPLAYIN and what is not.

Can we instead start a debate about you telling me what my motives are?
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Offline neriana

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2004, 06:19:34 PM »
And am I the only person who thinks the Nameless One looks like a zombie Elvis?  It's very distracting.  ;D
I knew he reminded me of someone...

I like PS:T, but I think it's overrated. Good characters, good acting, good graphics, good adventure game. I liked the setting myself, but any non-traditional fantasy D&D computer game setting makes me very happy.
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Offline jester

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2004, 06:45:42 PM »
Domi, you should leave Candlekeep, if you can and see if you like the game not the intro.

Hard to relate to ??? A female dwarf? a half-orc barbarian. No, just because I picked their 'name' and their outfit colours doesn't make me relate to anybody. I relate to them during gameplay. Most avatars suck, but I do not enjoy graphics anyway. I think that Fallout was really nice to play and had a great feel to it, but yeah I couldn't fall in love with my looks because I did not see any. :(

The thing about the BG engine I hate most is the fu**ing Hero dies-game dies mechanic which is WRONG. Why am I lugging a useless cleric around all the time? Resurrect me, you twit.

Getting experience by learning from conversations.... ahhh now that is a novelty concept. I don't like rankings, but PST was on the greener side, and Virtue will be or is what I enjoyed most: Your actions shape your alignment. :)

@jc: He may be old, but Elvis is another generation apart. :P
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Offline Kish

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2004, 07:05:11 PM »
No, just because I picked their 'name' and their outfit colours doesn't make me relate to anybody. I relate to them during gameplay.
And of course everything you can choose about your BG character, and can't choose about your PST character, is accurately summed up as "name and outfit colors."
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2004, 07:19:38 PM »
The thing about the BG engine I hate most is the fu**ing Hero dies-game dies mechanic which is WRONG. Why am I lugging a useless cleric around all the time? Resurrect me, you twit.

That's because you're a Bhaalspawn (and not a Plot Convenience Bhaalspawn, like Imoen.)
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Offline jester

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2004, 07:23:41 PM »
No, just because I picked their 'name' and their outfit colours doesn't make me relate to anybody. I relate to them during gameplay.
And of course everything you can choose about your BG character, and can't choose about your PST character, is accurately summed up as "name and outfit colors."
Everything you can choose???

Let's see the only thing TNO lacks is the ability to be female which is a flaw for a zombie and the Valen/Bodhi romance community. He can be any class and excell in anything that he pleases. If you add the SPECIAL system from Fallout on top of that, I would prefer it to the 'choices' in BG. (Just look at BG alignment before Virtue).

BG offers class, male/female, stats, race and alignment. So where do you see the big immersion bonus?
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Offline discharger12

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2004, 07:59:58 PM »
The thing about the BG engine I hate most is the fu**ing Hero dies-game dies mechanic which is WRONG. Why am I lugging a useless cleric around all the time? Resurrect me, you twit.

That's because you're a Bhaalspawn (and not a Plot Convenience Bhaalspawn, like Imoen.)

I think the nameless one would be considered a 'Plot Convience'. No matter how many times he dies, he comes back to life!

I had a conversation a while back when a friend bought me PST. I asked him if he knew Sigil was in the same universe as the Forgotten Realms. He said no, that it was completely independent. Well then wth does Haer'Dalis and company say that the hailed from Sigil? To bad he's not around anymore, or I could have pointed this out.

Offline neriana

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2004, 08:06:13 PM »
Let's see the only thing TNO lacks is the ability to be female which is a flaw for a zombie and the Valen/Bodhi romance community. He can be any class and excell in anything that he pleases.
Thanks for that info, Jester, because I sure didn't know about it before. I just thought I was a woman. Since I'm not particularly fond of the idea of romancing Bodhi or Valen, I must be a zombie.

And I didn't know fighter, mage and thief were the only three classes in D&D either. Nor did I know that elves, dwarves, half-orcs, half-elves, halflings, and gnomes were non-existent, unnimportant races in the D&D universe.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2004, 08:11:33 PM »
No, just because I picked their 'name' and their outfit colours doesn't make me relate to anybody. I relate to them during gameplay.
And of course everything you can choose about your BG character, and can't choose about your PST character, is accurately summed up as "name and outfit colors."
Everything you can choose???

Let's see the only thing TNO lacks is the ability to be female

Right, that's one thing.

Quote
which is a flaw for a zombie and the Valen/Bodhi romance community.
I beg your pardon?
Quote
He can be any class
Oh?  He can be a ranger?  A paladin?  A bard?  A cleric?  A druid?  Noo...he can be one of three classes.

But I'm glad to see you've acknowledged there's a little more than "name and outfit colors."
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Domi

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2004, 10:23:02 PM »
Domi, you should leave Candlekeep, if you can and see if you like the game not the intro.

Erm...I actually do not mind Candlekeep - the style of dialogues, the voicework, the silly littl' quests, the atmosphere...it's all engaging. I am capable of making it through Candlekeep.

In PST it is immediately:

-I am supposed to play a greenish looking male...but I just do not WANT to...
-dialogues are terrible.
-the very first NPC I encounter is *worst* than Minsc in its silliness and cheap humour
-the setting is darkish
-the classes are non-existent...
-I do not want to even to start on the floating white lady...

so by the time I made it out of Mortuary, the frustration accumulated and I had no desire whasoever to play longer.  :D

Offline Kish

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2004, 10:58:47 PM »
-I do not want to even to start on the floating white lady...
I am curious, I must admit.  I've seen you say you hate her a couple times, but not why.
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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2004, 11:07:29 PM »
It's just so...banale...a floating ghost in white dressssssssssssssss...after all these people ah-ing and oh-ing about PST's depth....it also looked terrible, like her skirts where balooned...and the text drove me insane, because I kept remembering Anomen's "my love" and imagining him floating up there in the white dress.

Offline Caswallon

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2004, 03:58:16 AM »
Hehe. Well, one might argue that it's in fact more stringent that you can't be any possible class and then some when it's just silly that TNO would be such a class; than quietly looking over the inconsistencies of 20-year-old Elven rangers confined in the walls of Candlekeep, or paladins without an order, or CE bastards lovingly cared for by Gorion... ;)

As for plot characters... hmm. Well, I might wonder why I have to play Bhaalspawn and not, for instance, Melicamp :D (as a paladin, of course - we want choices, after all)... as if plot devices determining character action and choices would be something new.
Granted, PS:T is quite restrictive there, and tolerance levels may vary.

As for the world - yeah, that is bizarre, and I can understand that many don't like it... it took me some time to get used to it, too, and even now I find it a fascinating concept, but wouldn't play, say, PnP in the Planescape universe as presented by PS:T.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2004, 04:47:52 AM by Caswallon »
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Offline Quitch

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2004, 04:16:52 AM »
I personally found PST to be a far deeper game than BG2, this is of course because it was designed for the story and dialogue, rather than combat... BG2 is far more quest orientated than PST, which sort of nudges you along in the right direction.

jcompton has a point, often the longest dialogue option is the right one, and you'll pick it because it sounds so much more intelligent than the others, or complicated, or interesting.  They don't blend in.  However, I found the PST dialogue system to be so much better than BG2, the use of description and actions made for a much deeper, more involving experience.

The game has its flaws, but dialogue is not one of them.  If you didn't play BG2 for the roleplaying, then chances are you won't like PST.  But if you played for the party, for the NPC chats, then you will love the game.

I find both PST and BG2 equally satisfying.  BG2 has a range of choice and epic feel that PST doesn't, but the depth of the NPCs and dialogue style in PST is BG2's superior.
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Offline jester

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2004, 06:03:36 AM »
Quitch (or JC) has a point with the obvious dialogue options, but I find that after a while it is a simple rule of CRPGs that the novelty fades and I just know what lines to pick when and the replayability of PST is rather poor (compared to Fallout). So I left it alone after 5-8 different games. BG is heavilly flawed in that department too as Caswallon pointed out. Most choices are not really conceivable in the Candlekeep setting

Funny nobody acknowledged my complaint about the relative uselessness of having a party for mutual help in BG, if all hinges on the PC. I die game ends. :(

Domi, Candlekeep was an analogy for the mortuary by the way and I just wanted to urge you to go and see the Sensates at least. Yes, I must admit that eternal love beyond the grave is silly. So no white lady for me. :) There is an interesting twist between your chars later in the game.

@ Kish
Quote
Quote
which is a flaw for a zombie and the Valen/Bodhi romance community.
I beg your pardon?
Some said above that he was a zombie Elvis and it was a cheap joke about ongoing romance endeavours . When it comes to classes or especially alignments which you graciously omitted in your quote I feel that most ranger types play out like fighters and bards would not play out much differently in PST than thief/mages. He could be a cleric I think, I never tried that. Arguing PnP doesn't help, because then I would claim my psion as missing as well. Where are the evil options in BG? Why do I always have to fight?

@Neriana: Glad you are not a zombie, because you are female which my sentence would have meant anyway. This is not about misogyny in games.

I guess the only main point which saved BG for me is that it has been heavily modded which PST hasn't. I would have shelved BG years ago, if the first mod would not have popped up and brought me to TeamBG as an eternal lurker. :)

Just out of curiosity: What is the basic starting assumption in Morrowind and NWN?

I think it is only fair that some people enjoy some games more than others, I just happen to enjoy a broad variety of approaches and enjoyed the harsh worlds of Fallout and PST and still enjoy playing the BG-story.
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Offline Nesquaam

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2004, 09:27:13 AM »
Another good RPG is Sacred, there you don't have much opions to choose from in the beginning, but the game makes it up by letting you choose all the other features that you want.
You have only five classes, and 3 races, wich you can't combine. But along in the game you can moddify your character; change strenght, agilty, dexterity and so on and so forth.
You can change the character to your liking. So where you first are forced to choose a character that you don't like, it's made up by changing that character.
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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2004, 09:28:34 AM »
They don't blend in.  However, I found the PST dialogue system to be so much better than BG2, the use of description and actions made for a much deeper, more involving experience.

Imo descriptions in dialogues limit the player's imagination, because they make the game less interactive and more "bookish". You are *assigned* what you feel with the responce that quotes your feelings/actions. I want to think for myself what body language or facial expression I use when NPC talks etc.

Domi, Candlekeep was an analogy for the mortuary by the way and I just wanted to urge you to go and see the Sensates at least. Yes, I must admit that eternal love beyond the grave is silly. So no white lady for me.  There is an interesting twist between your chars later in the game.

I understand...but unlike Candlekeep the atmosphere Mortuary creates is not of a foreboding of advenmture, but a foreboding of something dark and unpleasant. And I have seen so much shit in my life, that when I roleplay, I want it all to be fun, justice for all and heroical sagas.

And I think that playing bard is *much* different than playing thief-mage. Especially when someone cares to write dialogues with the inclusion of songs PC can chose to recite :D
« Last Edit: May 04, 2004, 09:36:44 AM by Domi »

Offline Caswallon

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Re: Planescape: Torment
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2004, 10:17:57 AM »
Just out of curiosity: What is the basic starting assumption in Morrowind and NWN?

Morrowind: You were a prisoner (no reason given why you were in prison) coming from the continent (MW takes place on a large island). You are released on the island on command of the Emperor himself (he has reasons that are explained in the game), you get a quest (the start of the main quest, which you may or may not follow), and that was it.
So essentially the history of the main character is just a blank space, which you can fill in for yourself or not.

NWN: Don't remember. Something with an academy...


Quote from: domi
Imo descriptions in dialogues limit the player's imagination, because they make the game less interactive and more "bookish". You are *assigned* what you feel with the responce that quotes your feelings/actions. I want to think for myself what body language or facial expression I use when NPC talks etc.

Hmm. Can't remember how prominent descriptions of your behaviour/feelings were. I liked the descriptions of the game world, however - when I click on someone, she doesn't just start to talk, but there is a text like "You see an old woman in what once were fine clothes" or whatnot. It adds a lot of life to a bunch of pixels.

Quote from: domi
but unlike Candlekeep the atmosphere Mortuary creates is not of a foreboding of adventure, but a foreboding of something dark and unpleasant.
Hehe... for me, Candlekeep creates the atmosphere of a tutorial. :D It's trying to convey the feeling of the long-time home of the character in 10 minutes' playing time, which is necessary story-wise, but very difficult to achieve (and it imho failed). Adventure starts when Gorion is killed; Candlekeep itself kind of tries to avoid the foreboding of greater things to come, I think.
You're right, I think, in describing the feeling of the Mortuary as "dark and unpleasant"; PS:T has some lighter sides, but the Mortuary is not exceptionally dark - there are similar locations.
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