Author Topic: A Personal Review  (Read 17010 times)

Offline Einar

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A Personal Review
« on: January 17, 2008, 12:28:56 AM »
I really enjoyed playing this mod, prior to this Nalia never figured into my party configuration. For this go around my party included my LG fighter, Nalia, Yasraena, Ninafer, Jaheira and Yoshimo/Imoen. I picked up Nalia on Day 2 and quickly went through the Keep quest in anticipation of things to come. Knowing that this romance was SoA only, I then took my time in order to let the relationship play out, and herein is the basis of my criticism.

It really took a long time for Nalia to suggest that we go to the Keep for the consumation of our relationship, I think it was Day 70 before this occurred, well after returning from Underdark and struggling to find things to do before confronting Bodhi. For someone who has played through SoA and ToB several times, this is an eternity. I am currently on Day 90, and the LTs are still coming, even though I have not yet gone to the Elf City for the final confrontation with Irenicus.

Have I misplayed this mod in some way?


Offline Kulyok

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 01:25:59 AM »
That's likely as it should be: it's a long romance, much like Jaheira's or Viconia's.

I don't usually advise/advertise/recommend variable lovetalk timers(in BG1 NPC, I begged for them because Domi was determined to make Xan LT's happen an hour and a half between each other), but you could try the following:

- open PGNalLT.d with Notepad and replace 2700(45 minutes) with any number of your choice(say, 1500). Then reinstall the mod and play.

Offline jcompton

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 09:45:34 AM »
Another way to tell would be--did you spend a particularly long time waiting before a certain event-required LT? I've been curious if the Burwood quest might be too tricky to reach--I assume people like to go to the Keep periodically to pick up the money, if nothing else, although perhaps that's assuming too much of the player with 7+ years of SOA experience and we should put a specific nag in there to make it obvious.

But if you seemed to get the LTs at a pretty even pace, then there's not too much we can do apart from, as Kulyok said, make the timer shorter.
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Offline Einar

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2008, 02:32:18 PM »
I prefer not to mess with LT variables, so I accept that this romance is long and involved. I do go back to the Keep periodically, so there was no long lag there. As I said previously, this is a really good mod, so no complaints from me. If ToB content is ever added it could be a great mod. I read a comment in another forum from someone who was including Jaheira, Viconia and Aerie to the mix, which sounds like the ultimate catfight. I may try that myself.

Anyway, good job with this mod.

Offline jcompton

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2008, 02:40:54 PM »
I read a comment in another forum from someone who was including Jaheira, Viconia and Aerie to the mix, which sounds like the ultimate catfight. I may try that myself.

I would be curious to learn from someone trying such a configuration in a "real game" how this actually plays out. I would suspect that some of the romances would start shutting each other down (coming to the "decision point") before you could really see all of the conflicts. It's a very tricky thing to measure and plan for in the development process because players acquire NPCs at different times and the romances themselves run at different rates.
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Offline Atolly

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2008, 12:52:30 PM »
How many LTs are there.  I finally went to the Elf City but I'm not sure if the romance is complete.  I believe the LT stands at 65/66 in my game currently.  If there be more I guess I'll take them out of the city and run around more.  They are on day 86 I think lol.  I never played the game days that long before. lol

Offline Kulyok

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2008, 12:57:51 PM »
If you are at 65, you are already done: "<CHARNAME>, do you consider yourself a gambler?" is her final SoA lovetalk.

Offline Atolly

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2008, 01:08:31 PM »
Ah yes, good :-)


Offline jcompton

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2008, 01:39:56 PM »
Yeah, that LT conveys the "okay, just in case it wasn't clear, I am totally positively yes in love with you and not leaving" message which seems to be appreciated at the end of an SOA romance.

(and then there's the way Nalia finishes off with sentence structure which is a beautiful mirror of her curse over Tor'Gal's dying body, but of course nobody notices these things and let's just add that one to the list of Things I Probably Enjoyed More Than You.)
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Offline shiroryu

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2008, 01:56:23 AM »
My 2 cents on the mod:

I loved the mod as well. JC's writing is pithy and concise, and takes Nalia to a deeper level, with philosophical discussions thrown-in. The take care of Isaea quest was nicely done, without any angsty, prolonged revenge speeches. The fight was a bit anticlimactic in difficulty but then Isaea is a down-on-his-luck slaver, not an archvillain.

The eavesdropping on their conversations was a nice touch as well - it occupies the player's mind with how Nalia's father was, and even allows the PC to guide Nalia's view...great dialogue options. In general, you've covered all the dialogue response types, going beyond the nice/nasty binary muddle-throughs. Forced me to stop and consider each of my options, which is really great writing.

I did feel, though, that Nalia came across standoffish in the first two-thirds of the romance. Maybe it's the lack of voiceover( which is not your issue, of course) that contributes to this. Nalia's venting of anger at Isaea after the funeral was, for me, the highlight of vanilla Nalia, because she appeared to be breaking barriers - a powerful moment, I felt. Nalia's response to her father's death, and her subsequent offer to pay you - a bereaved girl putting away her grief, steeling herself, was another.

Nalia's not a demonstrative person, but her personality does peek through at times in the original game. Some more emotional( but not angsty) moments would've been better. Also, some curiosity about the Bhaalspawn curse, she being a mage, trying to heal the one she loves, would have been great.

All in all, though, a great mod, and I sincerely hope you find time away from Broken Hourglass( for which I wish you the very best!) to finish the ToB version. A big thank you to you and Kulyok for the hours of enjoyment :)
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." - Mazrim Taim, Wheel of Time

"Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja. "

Offline jcompton

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 12:55:37 AM »
I did feel, though, that Nalia came across standoffish in the first two-thirds of the romance.

Quoting you out of sequence here because this thought leads directly to...

Quote
In general, you've covered all the dialogue response types, going beyond the nice/nasty binary muddle-throughs. Forced me to stop and consider each of my options, which is really great writing.

One of the reasons I was careful to give the player/PC a lot to think about in the earlier lovetalks is that, as you point out, it really does take Nalia quite a while to come around. Since that could get annoying and/or boring in a hurry, I figured you needed more than "1 for yes, 2 for no."

Thanks for the commentary, it's appreciated. (Nalia seems to be getting a lot of download attention but comparatively little discussion.)
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Offline shiroryu

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 02:10:04 AM »
One of the reasons I was careful to give the player/PC a lot to think about in the earlier lovetalks is that, as you point out, it really does take Nalia quite a while to come around. Since that could get annoying and/or boring in a hurry, I figured you needed more than "1 for yes, 2 for no."

You figured right. One thing that this does is improve replayability - I went through the mod being the nice guy. Next time, a more "oh, shut up"s are called for, I think. :P

Incidentally, I feel that Bioware actually opened up a whole new sidegame here. Their romances are in a sense, strictly binary - oh, you
do have various ways of answering your love interests' questions but what it boils down to is a series of critical answers surrounded by fluff. You can therefore blow them off on the trivial LTs and make sure you don't in the few LTs that matter( like real life - natch).

The 'counter' approach that's been used in Nalia and other mods is better, makes each LT more relevant. In the end, though, the decision is still binary, isn't it( if helovesme > X, love(charname) )?

The next step, in my mind, would be for a 'band' rather than a 'thread' of romanceability; the NPC would adapt to you somewhat, and vary their responses. I'm aware that the current mod romance system implements this loosely.

I was thinking of a more freewheeling system like the one for conversation in Mass Effect. I haven't played that game, and wonder how well romances are implemented in that one.( besides the 'digital sideboob': http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2008/01/23/is_this_the_most_idiotic_videogame_debate_of_all_time.html )

Thanks for the commentary, it's appreciated. (Nalia seems to be getting a lot of download attention but comparatively little discussion.)

I was a bit surprised myself that not much reviews came forth...then again, I dithered a week or more before posting my thoughts.
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." - Mazrim Taim, Wheel of Time

"Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja. "

Offline jcompton

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2008, 11:42:36 AM »
I suspect a sizable part of it is that guys are reluctant to discuss their feelings on interactive romance with other guys. Particularly to be (among) the first.
Cespenar says, "Kelsey and friends be at the Pocket Plane? Ohhh yesssss!" http://www.pocketplane.net

Offline shiroryu

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2008, 01:08:26 PM »
Contrast this with the immediate Kelsey bouquets/brickbats eh?  :P
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." - Mazrim Taim, Wheel of Time

"Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja. "

Offline jcompton

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2008, 02:51:31 PM »
For starters, yeah, although the situation around the release is different, too--true, demand for the de'Arnise mod has been welled up, but nothing like it was for another truly Bioware-style male romance six years ago.

I'm more thinking of the chatter around Xan versus that around Nalia. Kulyok released a new version of Xan last month and that and Nalia got nearly identical numbers of downloads--but I would say there's considerably more "Xan Romance-related activity" out there.
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Offline cmorgan

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2008, 03:56:24 PM »
Well, I can promise you commentary and discussion, but not until I get a chance to play it :) (I expect Spring break, around mid-March). The quick look I took showed a really strong "multiple pathways" approach, which I personally wish was more universal. And the writing is great (I have not spoiled myself too much; especially the lovescene - want that one to be an in-game experience). But dudes should open up and toss out the ideas more - the dudettes do seem to really identify and analyze alot more of the romance mods/pathways.

Offline shiroryu

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2008, 12:29:57 AM »
The perils of making a female mod NPC, I guess. I second cmorgan's suggestion for the reason that it helps modders to know their audience. The Kelsey vs. Anomen debate, for example, generated a smorgasbord of info on female BG2 player prefs that male-NPC creators can use. Nothing of that scale for the female mod NPCs, I think. There have been reactions, but not enough discussion. Am thinking of creating a Lady Irlana NPC, but there's a big void for female NPC prefs. Not that modders should be playing to the gallery, but more of male opinion always helps.

Incidentally, there's also the play-the-opposite-sex-PC phenomenon. If the gals out there have played male PCs( or female PCs with the both-genders tweak) and romanced Nalia, their feedback is valuable as well. Modders making an NPC the same sex as they are have to contend with the Mary Sue pitfall, but when they make an NPC of the opposite sex, there may be a tendency to project ideal partner characteristics onto the NPC, resulting in an unnatural personality for it. Here's where the ladies, with their ability to identify with the female NPC, can provide feedback.

Myself, I do play female PCs, but draw the line at romancing male NPCs. Chloe, Sarah, Immy are perfectly welcome however.  ;D

« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 12:37:09 AM by shiroryu »
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." - Mazrim Taim, Wheel of Time

"Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja. "

Offline Kulyok

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2008, 01:39:37 AM »
Quote
Incidentally, there's also the play-the-opposite-sex-PC phenomenon. If the gals out there have played male PCs( or female PCs with the both-genders tweak) and romanced Nalia, their feedback is valuable as well.

Um, mine wasn't the best. I enjoyed reading the romance a great deal as I coded, but the only meaningful feedback I could provide was "Hey, this moment is SOOO like that 'Friends' episode with Chandler and Monica!"

(I should mention that I like Chandler and Monica, which, I guess, makes me absolutely hopeless).

Offline berelinde

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2008, 01:49:34 AM »
The Kelsey vs. Anomen debate, for example, generated a smorgasbord of info on female BG2 player prefs that male-NPC creators can use.
Maybe, but I'm not so sure about that. Generally, the people who post in fora either like the NPC or dislike it strongly, so it's going to show a bias. Many of the players who tried the mod and said "meh, whatever" probably didn't bother to post. I'm not passing negative judgment on any existing NPC with this comment, it's just that making a post to register neutrality on the subject doesn't really seem like something many people would bother to do.

Quote
Am thinking of creating a Lady Irlana NPC, but there's a big void for female NPC prefs. Not that modders should be playing to the gallery, but more of male opinion always helps.
I hope you do! I'd love to play it.

No, you shouldn't write for the gallery. You should write the mod you want to write. There will always be somebody who wants to play it. But there is no denying the fact that you will do your best work when you feel inspired and energized about your subject matter.

Now, as for *this* female player, I'd like a romanceable male NPC who is more or less normal (not from another plane, not tied up in his own personal drama, sweet, thoughtful, demonstrative without being clingy, involved with my PC without being needy, and every-so-slightly dense). But just like real people, you could write an NPC that filled every one of those requirements, and I might still not like him. Personality is complicated.

Quote
Modders making an NPC the same sex as they are have to contend with the Mary Sue pitfall, but when they make an NPC of the opposite sex, there may be a tendency to project ideal partner characteristics onto the NPC, resulting in an unnatural personality for it.
I'd like to think that a modder writing for an NPC of either the same gender or the opposite would at least attempt to keep it real. Sure, there are mods where the line is crossed, and unreal NPCs result. But it is certainly easier to write an NPC of the opposite gender, at least for me. Most of the challenge of writing an NPC mod is actually writing the PC responses, letting the PC react to what the NPC is saying. It's easier to write PC responses in line with your own gender. Again, I'm speaking from nothing but my own experience, so your mileage may vary.

Offline shiroryu

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2008, 01:52:58 AM »

Um, mine wasn't the best. I enjoyed reading the romance a great deal as I coded, but the only meaningful feedback I could provide was "Hey, this moment is SOOO like that 'Friends' episode with Chandler and Monica!"

(I should mention that I like Chandler and Monica, which, I guess, makes me absolutely hopeless).

Which moment?

And I preferred the Chandler-Monica pairing as well. It was a perfect slow-burner romance, building up to a happy ending. The Ross-Rachel romance, though hotter, was overdone to the point of parody with its on-again, off-again nature.
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." - Mazrim Taim, Wheel of Time

"Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja. "

Offline shiroryu

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2008, 02:13:45 AM »
Maybe, but I'm not so sure about that. Generally, the people who post in fora either like the NPC or dislike it strongly, so it's going to show a bias. Many of the players who tried the mod and said "meh, whatever" probably didn't bother to post. I'm not passing negative judgment on any existing NPC with this comment, it's just that making a post to register neutrality on the subject doesn't really seem like something many people would bother to do.

True, but that's the beauty of the process - the pro-NPC squad pointing out how the NPC works, the anti-NPC squad pointing out how it doesn't. A lot of hot air can get blown about, but there's an 'averaging' effect as well. The two groups are unlikely to be swayed from their positions, dictated by personal preferences as they are, but a modder can get a lot of info.

No, you shouldn't write for the gallery. You should write the mod you want to write. There will always be somebody who wants to play it. But there is no denying the fact that you will do your best work when you feel inspired and energized about your subject matter.
Agreed.

Now, as for *this* female player, I'd like a romanceable male NPC who is more or less normal (not from another plane, not tied up in his own personal drama, sweet, thoughtful, demonstrative without being clingy, involved with my PC without being needy, and every-so-slightly dense). But just like real people, you could write an NPC that filled every one of those requirements, and I might still not like him. Personality is complicated.
True again. Hard to draft an NPC by popular demand; I was thinking more of the obvious issues like the Mary Sue effect etc.

I'd like to think that a modder writing for an NPC of either the same gender or the opposite would at least attempt to keep it real. Sure, there are mods where the line is crossed, and unreal NPCs result. But it is certainly easier to write an NPC of the opposite gender, at least for me. Most of the challenge of writing an NPC mod is actually writing the PC responses, letting the PC react to what the NPC is saying. It's easier to write PC responses in line with your own gender. Again, I'm speaking from nothing but my own experience, so your mileage may vary.

Thanks. That does help. I was wondering which one was easier to write - NPCs of the same sex or the opposite sex. Do you mean that writing the NPC dialogue isn't as difficult?
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." - Mazrim Taim, Wheel of Time

"Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja. "

Offline Kulyok

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2008, 02:36:34 AM »
Quote
Which moment?

A near-intimate one. Now you're making me blush. :)

Quote
True, but that's the beauty of the process - the pro-NPC squad pointing out how the NPC works, the anti-NPC squad pointing out how it doesn't. A lot of hot air can get blown about, but there's an 'averaging' effect as well. The two groups are unlikely to be swayed from their positions, dictated by personal preferences as they are, but a modder can get a lot of info.

It would be useful if they were making comments like "And LT84 was really long-winded; what were you trying to say?" or "I am not sure Aerie would act like that in the second romance conflict." or "Gosh, it's so much like a girl writing a guy: no guy would act like this in LT96. Though LT97 more than made up for it, your use of adverbs still desires better."

But it mostly comes to a "He/she's a whiny brat/Mary Sue/deadbeat dad/drama queen" and so on. Or "An NPC/NPC romance? And other NPCs notice this character? Eww!/He is singing again!/I can't believe he mentions his ex! Gross!" or "Meh, not my cup of tea in general."(Me always wonders why people will come and post this, since it's a comment which essentially says "I cared about this character enough to come and post and mention this fact. So there." :) ) Which I certainly understand, since it's much more fun to throw these around, but it's still that - interesting, enjoyable, often thoughtful feedback, but hardly a writing seminar.

I think the best person to give the modder feedback is the modder himself, several years after the work is finished. (All right, often it consists of "Oh. Oh. Oh dear... Oh dear... did I really write this?" - I can testify to this, having replayed Xan and Branwen romance for BG1 a few days prior. But it's supposed to be more meaningful, honest!)

Offline berelinde

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2008, 02:47:45 AM »
I'd like to think that a modder writing for an NPC of either the same gender or the opposite would at least attempt to keep it real. Sure, there are mods where the line is crossed, and unreal NPCs result. But it is certainly easier to write an NPC of the opposite gender, at least for me. Most of the challenge of writing an NPC mod is actually writing the PC responses, letting the PC react to what the NPC is saying. It's easier to write PC responses in line with your own gender. Again, I'm speaking from nothing but my own experience, so your mileage may vary.

Thanks. That does help. I was wondering which one was easier to write - NPCs of the same sex or the opposite sex. Do you mean that writing the NPC dialogue isn't as difficult?

That depends on how powerful a voice the NPC has in your head. If the character has been in your head for a while, and it sounds like yours has been, then the NPC dialogue isn't that bad. You know how she sounds, how she talks, how she feels about issues. If the NPC is more vague... well, it's probably easier to spend more time thinking about how your npc thinks, sounds, and feels, because you're never going to get a consistent "voice" until that information is nailed down.

Writing NPC/PC dialogue is different from writing NPC/NPC dialogue, and different from writing a story. For the latter two, you control both sides of the conversation. When the PC is involved, it gets more complicated. Sure, you can always go with a boolean agrees/disagrees range, but it's so much more satisfying when you look at a range of PC response choices and see one that states your view on the subject.


Offline jcompton

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2008, 08:34:23 AM »
The Kelsey vs. Anomen debate, for example, generated a smorgasbord of info on female BG2 player prefs that male-NPC creators can use. Nothing of that scale for the female mod NPCs, I think.

That's true, but I hasten to point out that the Kelsey vs. Anomen debate was the first time Anomen had really been "played off" against another NPC*. It's true that "Tashia vs. Fade: DISCUSS!" doesn't come up a lot, but there's a lot of digital ink spilled over Aerie vs. Jaheira vs. Viconia you can use as a guide.

* - yeah yeah Solaufein was released first but between Weimer stealth PR and the fact that Solaufein has a very different structure, etc. etc., Kelsey vs. Anomen was the first Big One.

For the record--I really don't consider the gender of a character to be part of the "difficulty equation" in writing for them.

Why are we not talking about Nalia, by the way? I got all excited seeing all these new posts this morning...

Sure, you can always go with a boolean agrees/disagrees range, but it's so much more satisfying when you look at a range of PC response choices and see one that states your view on the subject.

Although I did recently get a mild complaint about there being too many PC replies in de'Arnise. Hell of a business, isn't it?
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Offline shiroryu

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Re: A Personal Review
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2008, 09:03:10 AM »

A near-intimate one. Now you're making me blush. :)

"Meh, not my cup of tea in general."(Me always wonders why people will come and post this, since it's a comment which essentially says "I cared about this character enough to come and post and mention this fact. So there." :) )

I think the best person to give the modder feedback is the modder himself, several years after the work is finished. (All right, often it consists of "Oh. Oh. Oh dear... Oh dear... did I really write this?" - I can testify to this, having replayed Xan and Branwen romance for BG1 a few days prior. But it's supposed to be more meaningful, honest!)

Ah, but it's all for the research.  ;D

LOL'ed at the Meh comments - I guess people want their opinion heard even when it isn't an opinion. And Xan is great - one of my favorite NPCs.

That depends on how powerful a voice the NPC has in your head. If the character has been in your head for a while, and it sounds like yours has been, then the NPC dialogue isn't that bad. You know how she sounds, how she talks, how she feels about issues. If the NPC is more vague... well, it's probably easier to spend more time thinking about how your npc thinks, sounds, and feels, because you're never going to get a consistent "voice" until that information is nailed down.
Hmm. I was thinking of a 'create as you write' with subsequent revisions when cooler ideas strike you.

That's true, but I hasten to point out that the Kelsey vs. Anomen debate was the first time Anomen had really been "played off" against another NPC*. It's true that "Tashia vs. Fade: DISCUSS!" doesn't come up a lot, but there's a lot of digital ink spilled over Aerie vs. Jaheira vs. Viconia you can use as a guide.

Why are we not talking about Nalia, by the way? I got all excited seeing all these new posts this morning...

Yes, the discussion re: Bioware Elven trio offers good guidance but I believe mod NPCs, given how they were made by and for fans, offer a better challenge. Re: Tashia vs. Fade, I think part of the equation is, like you said, that there were no serious challenges to Anomen's romantic tyranny till Kelsey and Sola came along. Cue the Kelsey-love tidal wave and the Anomaniac backdraft. Don't think we'll see another epic fight of that scale again.

And yes, I have ended up hijacking this thread. On topic: Still have to play the dwarven PC in the Nalia romance. Where did I put that fake beard?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 11:31:31 AM by shiroryu »
"Kneel before the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." - Mazrim Taim, Wheel of Time

"Right. I had to get up at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our mother and father would kill us and dance on our graves singing Halleluja. "

 

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