Viconia's Lycanthropy Problem

[icelus]

This was one of the quests hinted at by David Gaider a long time ago at The Attic forum. He gave a rough outline, but not many details. Here is what we know:

"The mini-quest is actually something that was fully-written but cut. Some of you might have wondered why a priest of Beshaba, of all things, would be burning a drow. Sure...rabble-rousing might be reason enough for a Beshaban...but there was originally something more specific. In the Beshaban priest's original dialogue, he named Viconia a murderer and a 'monster'. Viconia denies this, of course...and she's not lying, so far as she knows.

Viconia had two dialogues that would take place after resting in the city. The first time, she would express fatigue and wonder at the head-aches she has been having. Short dialogue but expressive her disturbed state. The second would have her waking up in horror and finding blood all over herself. She thinks she knows what has occurred, though. On the way to Athkatla, Viconia was attacked by wolves...she drove them off but was bitten, and thinks she may have contracted lycanthropy...the player could kick her out in disgust, and she would be furious at the lack of assistance. Or the player could offer to help her...all she can think of, however, is going to the priests of Oghma for help. They can only direct the party to Ribald (yes, the guy in the Adventure Mart). Ribald will be quite amused by the whole thing...and while he knows a remedy to relieve Viconia's condition, he doesn't have any wolfsbane. This would require another short quest (which had not been written) to acquire.

In the mean-time, if the party remained in the city, an Athkatlan guard would approach and try to arrest Viconia for murder, saying that she was witnessed killing several people nights before. The party could let Viconia be taken away or fight to help her. Either way, Viconia will turn into a werewolf and kill the guard. In disgust, Viconia would leave the party and wait in the graveyard...if the party can get the wolfsbane and get a remedy, she will re-join. Otherwise, Viconia miserably remains in the graveyard for up to two weeks before disappearing permanently.
And that's that."

I can find no references to any of the dialog in the dialog.tlk file, so I'm guessing it was never coded by Bioware.

Questions? Comments? Ideas?


(The original thread can be obtained in .mht format here).

[Jessayla]

Eh, original cut quest or not, this one just seems a little over the top to me.  While I love Viconia and would very much enjoy seeing extra content for one of my favorite NPCs, I just don't really see this fitting in smoothly with the rest of Viconia's character as portrayed throughout the game.  Now the matter of her betraying the party in the Underdark is another matter entirely..

Being a drow, Viccie's already an exotic..but a drow werewolf?  Just not my particular cup of tea.

[Cybersquirt]

yeah, I'll ditto that (here as well).

[Barren]

I kinda liked it...

[Cybersquirt]

I think it's too much.  As Jess says, over the top.  It's enough that she's Drow and all the associated problems with that.  If they (bioPlay) really wanted to do her justice, they'd have remembered that she worships Shar. 

[jester]

Ice, there have been some quite interesting arguments brought fourth the last time, although I cannot quote them from the top of my head. 'Burning at the stake' and something. The woof-woof team from G3 had some good points too. If it is in the 'evil' pack which my LG browser cannot read, please feel free to ignore me.

[Cybersquirt]

(The original thread can be obtained in .mht format here).

oops: that would be : http://www.icelus.net/misc/ub-viconia2.zip

[jester]

Thanks Cyber. I meant to post it here verbatim, since my Netscape thingy does not like Bill's archives in general.

[Cybersquirt]

-gasp- my response timed out?!?!  I cut and pasted that WHOLE FREAKING THREAD and it's GONE?  Ahem. 

Sorry jester, I tried but you're on your own (as yer not close enough t' buy me a beer )

[Caedwyr]

Grim Squeaker

I would love to see this implemented. If I could write well for Viconia then I would offer to write it - but alas I can't. I could probably code it sometime down the line but life's kinda busy at the moment...

So where you do you get wolfsbane from? I hate to do a Bioware and send the party to the Umar Hills, but there might be a druid guy there would might have some (and may have treated wounded villagers in the past).

Next question, where would this go? I imagine it would be a bit like the Moira's death. If not in romance, then it happens reasonably soon after joining. If not, then choose a nice spot in the early romance for it to take place, and obviously put the romance on hold during the duration.

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Caedwyr

Another rather interesting point is that infected lycanthropes can apply to the Church of Selune and be granted the ability to control their transformations and actions like a natrual lycanthrope. Interesting solution to Viccy's problem. Though there is the small issue of who Viconia worships.....


As the quest was planned to be implemented everything sounds nice and interesting. This one should definately be worked in when someone who can write up the quest can be found.

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Grim Squeaker

I'm sure that solution will be suggested by Ribald (with some interjection by Keli). However, being a follower at Shar then Viccy will instantly reject this idea in disgust, no matter how much Charname begs her to.

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Sim
Grim Squeaker

 
Next question, where would this go?  I imagine it would be a bit like the Moira's death.  If not in romance, then it happens reasonably soon after joining.  If not, then choose a nice spot in the early romance for it to take place, and obviously put the romance on hold during the duration.

If she's being burned for it, I'd assume stuff's probably gonna start happenning fairly soon.

And how's Cernd gonna react to this? Recognition of symptoms?

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Grim Squeaker

Yeah but you know how fanatics are!

Seriously though you're probably right. It would be reasonably soon after her joining. However, what happens if you don't let her join straight away?

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jester

(Grim Squeaker @ Mar 1 2004, 08:19 PM)

However, what happens if you don't let her join straight away? 

She should be dead and gone for good. It is not very likely for her as a drow to hide in A. not even somewhere around the Graveyard, if the locals want her dead.

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rreiner

(jester @ Mar 1 2004, 07:57 PM)

She should be dead and gone for good. It is not very likely for her as a drow to hide in A. not even somewhere around the Graveyard, if the locals want her dead. 

I don't agree. Viconia tells the party that she is quite capable of living amongst humans, and has been doing so for quite a while before the fanatics recognized her. Especially in the graveyard, which is quiter than most sections of the city, she has a very good chance of staying undercover for a long time.

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Grim Squeaker

How about if you don't let Viconia join then you can encounter her in Werewuff form as a nighttime encounter, just after butchering someone, which would kind of jump start into the quest even though she's not in your party...

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Caedwyr

What'd be even more interesting and immersive is if you received a quest to figure out what was going on with the killings. A nighttime encounter with a were viccy would be still possible, but you'd get more of a feeling that this is a big issue and the people in the area are worried.

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jester

But she could be easily killed by someone who hasn't been filled in about her lycanthropy prob or is this an option. I mean killing her would solve the problem for the citizens after all, so your quest would revolve around that. I like this idea very much. Are people who are affected by lycanthropy as a "disease"  and not by choice like Cernd or by birth like Delainey at the same level as a werewolf as they are in real life? Higher or lower or does this depend on the level of the "source" creature?

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Barren Fischa

Natural shapeshifter usually have a greater control over their different forms.

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Bibbi

for finding a cure, could something be done with the barely used wilderness areas of chapter 6? somehow make small teeth pass or forest of tethir available when ribald relates a cure, have a druid or somesuch there to give a cure/quest. alternatively, have the cure be found there, like the wolfsbane plant growing there somewhere, and have some little quest attached to it. there are already wolfweres in some of the areas, so maybe that could somehow be related. and then there's the safana-lanfear-coran thing in chapter 6. could this be related? just throwing random ideas out in the early morning 

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jester

Isn't the small teeth pass already heavily used with dragons and such? I mean I can't remember what happened there without Mike B's addition.

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Sim

Something that doesn't involve plastering dragons across the map would be nice.

And yes, if you encountered Viconia in Werewolf form, the easy option would be killing her. This would probably raise reputation but lower Virtue, or something.

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rreiner

I don't think the Virtue drop would be a good idea. After all, a Paladin would probably slay this creature of darkness (which show up as "evil" when he checks it's alignment). Should (s)he fall (due to virtue drop) because of that?

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Sim

Interesting tangent. Is slaying an innocent commonner who's infected with lycanthropy against their will a virtuous act? And yes, Viconia's evil so you might argue that there's a difference, but my question still stands. 

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rreiner

The question about the "innocent werewolf" situation is a bit too complicated to answer, I think, but Viconia is evil, she's a drow, and she's a werewolf. Not to mention she's been killing innocent villagers. I think most paladins would smite her.

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Caswallon

Is anyone guilty of slaying people (even if it's in werewolf form) an "innocent commoner"?

How widespread is the knowledge that lycanthropy can be cured/controlled? IOW, is "let's get this poor werewolf healed" an idea that is conceivable for a character? Or is that knowledge restricted to those with a more esoteric learning (some priests, magicians)?

Apparently, Viconia doesn't know what she's doing in werewolf form. So when the party encounters her, she has no means of identifying herself or even suggesting she's just your perfectly normal Drow from next door. If he saw Cernd shapechange, the PC might even come to the conclusion that the killings must have been done conciously, as Cernd is obviously in control of his werewolf form. So he *must* think that this is indeed no innocent commoner but a murderous monster. Cernd himself might jump in there, but he's an expert on lycanthropy and not what people usually think or know about werewolves.

So I don't think killing Viconia as werewolf should result in a Virtue drop - except if the PC has deeper knowledge of the disease.

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Bibbi

to avoid these issues, maybe if the party encounters viconia in werewolf form, have a cutscene of her attacking someone and then she morphs back when she sees the party and collapses. then the pc can either help her or turn her in to the authorities. i think she wouldn't want to be in the party until she was cured, so maybe she retreats to the graveyard until a cure is found or goes to some other location (i'm thinking a wilderness area so she won't be around other people). the quest could progress normally when a cure was found

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Bibbi

ah, quick thought. i'm not sure whether the method of cure is settled yet, but one idea i had was to maybe have to find the pack of werewolves which bit viconia and kill them, much like mendas in ulgoth's beard. also, maybe wolfsbane or belladonna could be found somewhere to make into a cure or some sort. as i already suggested, having something using the useless chapter six areas could work, since wolfweres are already there. we just add a few things and have instant viconia quest!

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jester

Can I get to the chapter six areas early? I mean Vic is prob one of the first chars I pick up together with Jan. So having her turn into a werewolf every now and then (spellhold slayer style I imagine) without cure could be troublesome for some quest or just a pain in you know. Then again maybe it is a price to pay for the best ingame cleric??

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Icelus

(jester @ Mar 8 2004, 12:05 PM)

Can I get to the chapter six areas early? 

It is possible to have one of the Chapter Six areas show up early on the worldmap if the quest has begun, yes. It'd pretty much have to be the Small Teeth Pass or North Forest, as the Forest of Tethyr and the Underdark Exit areas should not be accessible until much later in the game.

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Camdawg

(Bibbi @ Mar 3 2004, 01:24 AM)

ah, quick thought.  i'm not sure whether the method of cure is settled yet, but one idea i had was to maybe have to find the pack of werewolves which bit viconia and kill them, much like mendas in ulgoth's beard. 

AFAIK this isn't canon and was a convenient plot device for TotSC. I would not be in favor of using the same solution here.

In regards to curing Vic, I rather like the idea of having to take her to one of the local temples. There a a number of good RP angles in bringing a lycanthropy-infected evil worshipper of Shar to the various temples around town.

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jester

Don't you think that just hopping to the next temple, Waukeen's is right next to the stake, would be a bit of a letdown challengewise. I also cannot imagine the average temple offering this treatment just like healing. (You are the wolfie expert! Is it cureable just like a curse or is it "Am. werewolf in Paris"-style). In Trademeet perhaps or some remote temples, but within the city limits of Atkathla lycanthropy doesn't seem to be too frequent. Perhaps the Beshabans burned them all before we arrived. 

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Camdawg

Curing lycanthropy really is a matter of casting remove curse. The percentage of success goes down with every full moon that passes, but really, that's it. It doesn't seem like much in SoA since you start at high levels and remove curse is probably either accessible or only a few levels off.  Which reminds me, we need to have a built-in excuse why the party can't just use a remove curse scroll or have one of the other clerics cast it--lack of material spell components, perhaps?

But that's where the RP opportunities come in--even Lathander could have reservations about helping an evil, Shar-worshipping Drow cleric. They could cut a deal with the party to perform a task for them, or a sufficiently wise/virtous/charismatic player could convince them otherwise, or they would be unable to cure her due to a lack of material components. Some temples will be more inclined to help than others, have different tasks they want they want the party to perform, etc. Other temples may be interested in slaying her outright, especially if they connect her to the crimes (Helm springs to mind). Viconia would also likely object to being taken to a temple of one of Shar's rivals.

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Caswallon

Do I have to cast a special Remove Curse to heal lycanthropy?
If it's just the generic spell, how do we explain that you can cast Remove Curse on everything else just fine, but for Viconia it doesn't work?
Cutting off the spell entirely is not really an option, imho - I know of at least one mod where the spell is actually useful.

Shar's rivals - is Talos among them?
If one of the other temples turns the party down, that would be my first choice.

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Barren Fischa

I think a church of Talos would be happy to let a werewolf roam the streets...

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Camdawg

If we're going to stick to the quest as proposed by Bioware, then it already presumes that remove curse won't work. We should still consider why that's the case, though.

Remove curse is a generic spell, though I believe the components differ depending on the type of curse--my PnP days are a bit behind me so I may be completely wrong. Regardless, making this the one and only time that spell components matter in BG2 is going to stand out.

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Barren Fischa

IIRC, Remove Curse "doesn't affect magical disease such as Mummy Rot or Lycanthropy".

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Camdawg

We went through the lycanthropy cures dance once already with Delainy.  Long story short: remove curse cures infected lycanthropes; eating belladonna within 24 hours of being infected will be successful 25% of the time.

Remove curse may provide its own loophole though:

 
Certain special curses may not be countered by this spell, or may be countered only by a caster of a certain level or more.

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jester

Now that was really a great way of hijacking a thread. I learned a lot about astrophysics and quantum mechanics and the applicability of Monty Python's songs.

So is Viconia a cursed or bitten lycanthrope? A true blood (offspring of two lycanthropes of any kind??) doesn't have the urges and the forced changes I take it. It seems back to square one and the remove curse option.


Or we use lum's machine as a time travelling device and let the player choose the alternate reality of Viconia being cured or not affected. Maybe that link just led me astray

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Cybersquirt

the 'new quests are good quests' logic aside, am I the only that doesn't see too much of a point in "finishing" this?

I wonder if the designers didn't even bother to code anything that went along with it because they decided it was a bad idea. It strikes me as ..cheesy, for lack of a better word. I think the original pretext of her being burned at the stake is enough.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket.. I just think this is a bad idea. 

[jester]

Thanks Caedwyr.

[arithar]

I think this quest is really cool. It could provide much killing of werewolfies Also, you could find the daggers and stuff from BG1 to help in the fight.

[JPS]

Personally, I agree with Cybersquirt here: this might well be a quest that was left out because it wasn't good enough and not just dropped because there wasn't enough time.

But tastes differ and all that, and with a mod as big ass UB will be when all the cut quests are restored, there's probably going to be differing opinions about more than one component (I already leave out the Artemis Entreri component when I install UB, but I've decided never to use "you don't have to install it" as an argument in a modding debate, so I don't really know why I'm writing this), so if this can be done well, I would have to say that it should be included.

(Observe the passive "be done", which lets me avoid irrelevant little questions like who should do it...)

[discharger12]

I agree with the others; It's pretty cool, it just doesn't fit well with Viconia.

[chaz58]

I like the the idea, but then again my opinion is always "new quests are good quests."

[HiddenAssassin]

Ribald could send you to the Harpers. They would have serious problems with a werewolf and they would have knowledge of lycanthropes. Still the Athkatla harpers are ****s and wouldn't help you. They might refer you to another group of harpers, Maybe Trademeet. They will speak of the only way to heal a bitten lycanthrope is with Wolfbane.

Wolfbane could be gathered from the snowy northern pass (adapted small teeth) and then used in a process of two nights.

A question though. Why would Viconia care that she's killing villagers?

[icelus]

Reposted from PM at the request of HiddenAssassin

First Banter of Viconia's Lycanthope
« Sent to: icelus on: June 28, 2004, 02:29:29 AM »

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Ohh I'm soo tired. Can't we stay here and rest a while longer? I could always make it worth your while once I'm rested. *flashed teeth*

1. If you rested at night instead of prowling while we're asleep maybe you woudln't be so tired.

(reply) I rested all night rivvin. No thanks to your useless tossing and turning. You've given me a headache with your endless prattling at night.

2. We could stay. Are you okay Viconia?

I'm quite fine, I have no need for you sympathy. On second thoughts I'm ready to leave *now*

3. I'm intrigued Viconia of this offer of yours.

Hah I knew you would be, filthy surfacer. Your kind are not worthy of the delights of *my* flesh. So are we staying here or not because I have a headache that would slaughter one of you lesser types.

[HiddenAssassin]

What is thought?

Sorry about that Icelus.

[cliffette]

Would it be possible to inflict this quest upon an innocent random character (say, Miren, a ranger who'd travelled to the city to find a cure). The 'waking covered in blood' part could be written in as back story. Thus you could have the quest, because it's neat, and not have it happen to Viconia because it doesn't fit her later character or romance.

[Cybersquirt]

Now that's a most excellent idea, Cliffette.

[Eltharodo]

but surely thats not UB tho ? 

[cliffette]

That's why we also inflict it upon an innocent non-UB modder. 

[icelus]

I think it would be a good idea for a quest, too, and, the more I think about it, the less the original quest seems appealing to give to Viconia. 

It'd probably be wiser to focus on Viconia's adventures in the Underdark than on a problem with lycanthropy.

[Cybersquirt]

(to reiterate, I agree - I do not like the idea of the lycan Viconia)

[icelus]

I'm transferring this thread over to the Quest Pack forum for a couple of reasons.

First, the more I think about it, and many others agree--this feels like one of the quests that was cut from the game because it just wasn't all that great an idea to begin with.

Second, Cliffette's idea is quite good, and the basic premise for the quest is interesting--just not for Viconia.

Therefore, with Sim's permission, I'm transferring the thread where it may one day be part of the Quest Pack.