Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?

[Ascension64]

Miloch, if you have any more questions about the coding or my comments, PM me somewhere. This thread is getting a bit too busy for me to check often.

[Miloch]

@Ascension64: Been doing that on SHS (and you've been responding there).  Just using the thread now to get user feedback.  So feel free to ignore it.  I know how busy you are with Mequel and the like.

@SixOfSpades: Those comments about whips and Viconia got me thinking.  No, not like that (well if it did I'd keep those thoughts to myself anyway ).  Is it really necessary to have a whip proficiency, being as how it only does like 1d2 damage (according to 2e Arms & Equipment)?  Still, it might be an interesting addition (if not to this mod, then another) since you could give it a chance to entangle the victim (and probably lose or disable your whip in the process).  Also, there are unused proficiencies in the game, but like you, I don't know if you can take advantage of those - certainly not during PC creation or leveling anyway.  Maybe it's possible to augment them via script or spell, I dunno.  But a flail is a chain weapon after all, so it wouldn't be too dissimilar from that proficiency.  Not exact matches, but same ballpark anyway.  Or maybe the same sport at least.

[SixOfSpades]

Is it really necessary to have a whip proficiency, being as how it only does like 1d2 damage (according to 2e Arms & Equipment)?  Still, it might be an interesting addition (if not to this mod, then another) since you could give it a chance to entangle the victim (and probably lose or disable your whip in the process).  But a flail is a chain weapon after all, so it wouldn't be too dissimilar from that proficiency.  Not exact matches, but same ballpark anyway.  Or maybe the same sport at least.

It's not really what it's made from that concerns me, but how it's used. A hypothetical two-handed Footman's Flail and Nunchaku would belong in the Flail proficiency, as they're all swung in pretty much the same ways, but compare them to a six-foot-long chain with an iron weight at one end and a sickle at the other. I think Ashes of Embers was right to group the Bola in with the Sling proficiency, as it's a weighted cord you spin around over your head, but trying to sneak a Lasso or Whip in there would be asking too much.

But then again, it's not like the existing setup is anything like perfect either. Important safety tip for your travels through Amn: Carry a bunch of spearheads with you. That way, if you get attacked by some guy who's just insanely good with his Quarterstaff, just slip a spearhead onto the end of it! He suddenly won't know how to use it any more, and he might even be forced to drop his weapon altogether and flee for the hills!

[Miloch]

A hypothetical two-handed Footman's Flail and Nunchaku would belong in the Flail proficiency, as they're all swung in pretty much the same ways, but compare them to a six-foot-long chain with an iron weight at one end and a sickle at the other.

What kind of weapon is *that*?  I was talking about a standard whip, which is similarly wielded (superficially perhaps) to a flail.  More so than nunchaku anyway.

I'm trying to reconcile these suggestions:

Nimbul - Swap Short Sword +1 with normal Wakizashi...

My idea of distribution would be as follows:
Ninja-to -- dropped by Nimbul...

Nimbul (a hostile encounter at Nashkel)
Replaced Short Sword +1 with Scimitar +1
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case

The change to Scimitar is good (since the party just got a SS+1 from Mulahey)...

Personally, I don't care much.  There's not a huge difference between the three (though as I said before, the scimitar +1 is probably a better weapon).  Leaning toward Bursk's wakizashi.  Technically it's considered a short sword in BG1 whereas the other two are "large swords" (I'm just stating how they're coded, not saying I agree):
Ninja-To: 1d8, Speed 4
Wakizashi: 1d8, Speed 3
Scimitar +1: 1d8+1, Speed 4

Vax (a bandit south of Nashkel)
Replaced Halberd with Wazikashi +1
Added Ninja-To +1, 2 Ammo Belts, Poisoned Throwing Dagger

I would lose all of that except for 1 Ammo Belt--and it goes on Zal, not Vax. And Darts and Throwing Daggers use different proficiencies.

You lost me on that last bit.  Vax has no darts (or ranged weapon of any sort).  Zal does, but already has missile proficiency (not daggers). So apart from the ammo belt on Zal, what are you suggesting?

As far as Beyn, I was thinking of just giving him the AC7 bracers and hiking up his Dex a bit (these mages are a complete pushover as it is, unless you have SCS Smarter Mages or something).  Then maybe giving the chessboard Queen the AC5 bracers.  The King, btw, is completely screwed up - fixed some scripting, incorrectly set items, hacked attributes and made him a fighter-mage so the 2-handed sword actually makes sense (he was a "mage" without the script to use his memorised spells and had the avatar of a cleric, rather incorrectly).

I think those were the main conflicts between your suggestions and Bursk's (if he even cares anymore - maybe he's sodded off to BG2 or NWN by now ).  I did decide to put the spear +1 on the gnoll chief and the halberd +1 on the bandit camp gnoll Britik, who appears later and is a bit more powerful than a gnoll chief anyway.

[SixOfSpades]

. . . a six-foot-long chain with an iron weight at one end and a sickle at the other.

What kind of weapon is *that*?

<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_weapons>An extremely effective one</a>, against a single opponent, anyway. A beginning or intermediate fighter wouldn't know what the heck to do with such a weapon, but a mastery would be quite deadly. A nasty disemboweling blade in one hand, a variable-range flail in the other, and in the middle, a length of chain to entrap an opponent's weapon or arm.

And I happen to think that the nunchaku has a lot more in common with the flail than a whip does (at least except for the part about how both ends of it are the "business end"). The whip works on an entirely different principle.

So apart from the ammo belt on Zal, what are you suggesting?

Absolutely nothing--I think giving Zal a container to store his tools is just right. As for the rest of it, I was correcting the list of what the mod did--the original author seemed to have Vax and Zal confused, as well as to think that Zal used Throwing Daggers as well as Darts.

As far as Beyn, I was thinking of just giving him the AC7 bracers and hiking up his Dex a bit (these mages are a complete pushover as it is, unless you have SCS Smarter Mages or something).  Then maybe giving the chessboard Queen the AC5 bracers.

Okay, I just think that AC 6 is perfectly fine for being the best Mage armor available in BG1. You may disagree, fine. I simply feel that Bracers of AC 3, 4, and 5 would be better left for BG2.

I think those were the main conflicts between your suggestions and Bursk's.

There's no real need to reconcile all of our suggestions into one cohesive whole--besides, I've contradicted myself enough in this thread without any help from others. As long as the final setup makes logical sense, is rather consistent, makes Kara-Turan weapons more difficult to obtain than their equally enchanted Western counterparts, and doesn't create any more "candy store" areas where powergamers can go get superior weapons almost immediately after starting the game, then I'm happy with it.

  I did decide to put the spear +1 on the gnoll chief and the halberd +1 on the bandit camp gnoll Britik, who appears later and is a bit more powerful than a gnoll chief anyway.[/quote]

[Miloch]

And I happen to think that the nunchaku has a lot more in common with the flail than a whip does (at least except for the part about how both ends of it are the "business end"). The whip works on an entirely different principle.

I decided to test this statement on a less-than-willing subject (heh, j/k).  The whip and flail both have a handle, a flexible part in the middle, and a "business end" used to strike the target.  And they're both used by raising the handle quickly and delivering the business end in a whipping or flailing motion.  How are they "entirely" different, apart from looks?  I'm not saying they're used *exactly* the same way, but proficiency oversplitting has already run amok in BG2, why make it any worse?  Besides, as we've already discussed, we're limited to the existing proficiencies in the engine.  And I want whips, dammit!

Edit:

I like the idea of Tamoko getting a Katana (if there's to be a Katana+2 in the game, she's the only one worthy of having it). It fits her background, her weapon choice in ToB, and the fact that she's a pureclass Cleric who casts Flame Arrow: A rulebreaker!

Originally, I wanted her to have the katana +1, mainly because it would taunt the observant player from the opening cutscene. But it works just as well (and legally) on one of her cohorts.

I'm not really concerned about Clerics not legally being allowed to wield bloodletting weapons, particularly as this is a Kara-Turan god we're talking about her serving. Besides, BioWare had all the time in the world to think about what kind of gear to give her in ToB, and they saw fit to have her dual-wield a Katana & Wakizashi.

I stumbled across a character profile for Tamoko in a Dragon article.  They have fairly accurate profiles of Jaheira and Sarevok too.  But Tamoko is described as a LN 11th-level human ninja shadow warrior (an assassin, I guess, in BG2 engine terms) with a katana +3, "one of the finest ever crafted by the swordsmiths of Kozakura."  It seems she got teleported to an island off Athkatla while trying to assassinate a high-ranking wu jen.

So, any particular reason they have Tamoko as a cleric in the game?

[Bursk]

I still care!

[SixOfSpades]

The whip and flail both have a handle, a flexible part in the middle, and a "business end" used to strike the target.  And they're both used by raising the handle quickly and delivering the business end in a whipping or flailing motion.  How are they "entirely" different, apart from looks?

LENGTH
Flail: 3-4 feet
Nunchaku: 2.5-3 feet
Whip: 4-10 feet

RANGE
Flail: 2-4 feet
Nunchaku: 1-3 feet
Whip: 5-10 feet (useless in true melee)

DAMAGE
Flail: Momentum generated by weight, breaks bone
Nunchaku: Momentum generated by speed, breaks bone
Whip: Momentum generated by speed, raises welts & cuts skin

MOTION OF USE
Flail: Swinging or spinning, then powerful swing
Nunchaku: Swinging or spinning, then powerful swing
Whip: Pulling back to bring length into the air, then powerful downward stroke to aim the whip at a specific point, then reverse follow-through from the wrist to crack the whip & begin backswing for next attack

ARMOR-PIERCING CAPACITY
Flail: High
Nunchaku: Moderate
Whip: None

BINDING CAPACITY (ability to wind around opponent's weapon, limb, or neck, restricting its movement)
Flail: Very Low
Nunchaku: None
Whip: High

[Miloch]

Nunchaku have moderate armour-piercing capacity?

Let me put it this way: if I were to introduce a whip (and I will ), which proficiency should I give it?

I'll think about introducing the nunchaku, but offhand, I don't have any Sword Coast CREs in mind that would have them.

Also, does anyone know about this:

So, any particular reason they have Tamoko as a cleric in the game?

Or to put it another way, does anyone give a flying gibberling's bollock if I make her an assassin or kensai (her BG2 kit) and give her a katana +2?

[SixOfSpades]

Well, if you're wearing leather or chain armor, a good blow from a nunchaku is still going to cause a heavy bruise--even splint wouldn't be able to shrug it off completely. Whereas, if you're up against somebody armed with a whip, all you have to do is wear a half-decent cloak and make sure to protect your head, and you're invulnerable.

I do hear you, whips would make a very nice roleplaying addition--I just don't think they're that feasible. I mean, I'd like to introduce an enemy whose favored weapon is a short-handled spear with an envenomed whip at the butt end, I simply realize that it ain't gonna happen. As far as I know, BG2 (and therefore Tutu) still has BG1's proficiencies of Blunt, Large Sword, Spiked, etc., still lying around unused, and you could theoretically hijack those (or at least one of them, and rename it "Exotic"), but I don't believe you'd ever be able to increment that proficiency at Character Creation or Level Up--meaning the best you could do is have a recruitable NPC who specializes in exotic weapons, and give them a script to increment the Exotic proficiency at certain levels.
Failing that, all you could do is slap Whips into the Flail proficiency. As I've said, Whips are almost entirely unlike Flails, but at least that makes more sense than, say, Halberd.

Personally, I kind of like Tamoko as a Cleric. Making her an Assassin or Kensai goes against the grain of her dialogues, which are very pacifist--but Dragon magazine wants her to be Ninja. Either way, she's supposed to do a single hitpoint of damage to CHARNAME in the first cutscene, and I feel that a Cleric could accomplish that the easiest--just turn the (nerfed) Flame Arrow into a Magic Stone and there you go. As for a Kara-Turan Cleric wielding a Katana, I would have no problem with that at all.

[Miloch]

The BG1 proficiences aren't unused in BG2 - they're larger groupings that entail the smaller ones.  So if you give someone the Large Sword proficiency, for example, they'll get skilled in longswords, katanas, scimitars, etc.  Plus I'm pretty sure we can't rename any proficiencies as they're hardcoded.  There are a bunch of unused ones (intended I think for things like gun and blackjack originally) but they would have the issues you describe.

I don't think Tamoko is supposed to be that pacifist - cleric or otherwise.  As a cleric, she has Animate Dead and Flame Strike.  Not exactly peacekeeping spells.  Though a kensai is not necessarily militaristic either - many see swordplay as an artform.  How does she become a kensai in BG2?  A dual-classing the other way around might work, but not cleric -> kensai.

Flindbars are essentially nunchaku:

Flinds use a nunchaku-like weapon called a flindbar, which consists of a pair of metal rods linked together by a chain.

I think there are three flinds in BG1 - two in the bandit camp and one at the archaeological site.  I guess I could dig up some weapon stats and make some flindbars.

[SixOfSpades]

If you ever find out what the heck the flindbar is supposed to do on each hit (other than make the victim automatically succeed on their Save vs. Wands roll), please do let me know.

[Miloch]

Well, funnily enough, I was just reading up on them.

A flindbar is a pair of chain-linked iron bars.  In combat, the bars are spun around at great speed, striking up to twice in a round.  In addition, flindbars can be used to disarm opponents.  Each successful hit requires the victim to save vs. wands.  If the saving throw is failed, the victim's weapon becomes entangled in the chain and is torn from his grasp.

Flindbar
Cost: 8, Wgt: 6, Type: Blunt, Speed: 4, Damage 1d4 (from the Complete Book of Humanoids)

The disarming feature could probably be implemented with an effect opcode on the flindbar.  If not the "Drop Weapons in Panic" opcode (which may be flaky, causing someone to drop any piece of equipment), then maybe just a temporary THAC0 penalty.

[Gorilym]

I don't think Tamoko is supposed to be that pacifist - cleric or otherwise.  As a cleric, she has Animate Dead and Flame Strike.  Not exactly peacekeeping spells.

Well, there's not that much to go on, but she's pretty adamant about wanting Sarevok to survive despite having recognized the lunacy of his plans. As for the spells, aren't they simply part of the standard selection for a cleric of her alignment?

How does she become a kensai in BG2?  A dual-classing the other way around might work, but not cleric -> kensai.

Since Tamoko is almost certainly dead beyond resurrection by BG2 (i.e. Yoshimo working with Irenicus because he believes that Charname was responible for the death of his sister, which may well be the case), I'm of the opinion that the kensai Tamoko is not the same creature as the BG1 cleric.

I believe her appearance in ToB is basically a what-if scenario (albeit in hell, so it can kill you): if Gorion had not rescued Charname, would he/she have become like Sarevok? Thus you fight a party (including modified "incarnations" of Tamoko and Sarevok's other dead cronies) led by an alternate reality "Charname" with the opposite alignment as the PC.

If not the "Drop Weapons in Panic" opcode (which may be flaky, causing someone to drop any piece of equipment), then maybe just a temporary THAC0 penalty.

"Drop weapons in panic" is evil because creatures are too dumb to pick up items after morale failure ceases, and very few creatures carry multiple weapons.

[Bursk]

Any news?

[Miloch]

I'm still working on it - in fact it's been my primary project lately, because I thought I could finish it quickly .  I haven't posted any news because I think I've answered most of the questions and even coded the bulk of the changes - it's just come down to fine tuning the details (always the time-consuming part).  Though as I've mentioned elsewhere, I've expanded the scope of the mod quite a bit, so I may decide to call it something else and perhaps just add an option to install the original Lost Items if you so desire.  It's strayed quite a bit from the original author's idea to just add a single item to dewussify monks .

[Bursk]

Thanks, Miloch.  Nice to know it's still being worked on.

I haven't been around much recently (not that I ever really do anything other than request additions/changes to mods), but I'll be sure to take a look at the mod once it's released.

[Bursk]

I've just read through the topic again and must say that I'm really looking forward to Miloch's version of this mod.  I think it'll be a fine addition to the game.  I haven't seen him around recently, so hope he's still working on this!

[Miloch]

Yeah, this is still on my to-do list.  A move necessitated my break from modding for a few months.

I guess I'll share one of my more harebrained ideas - the "restoration" of the Ioun Stone of Luck (long known as a hoax item):
Ioun Stone of Luck

[Soul Forge]

Am I missing something? Isn't one of the mod's components supposed to give a monk +3 AC bonus if wisdom is over 15 ? This is the only component i installed. Is it because my Dex modifier is already higher than this (+4). I noticed a low dex , high wisdom character gains the +3 benefit. (I also tested the enemy rolls to match the indicated AC). If this is how it's supposed to work then, pfft...useless. I'd rather go for high dex. And speaking of monks, the flurry of blows from the Sword and Fist mod does not give the -4 THACO as is intended (It shows in Character screen, but rolls are the same as without flurry). Well actually i don't mind since this seems to be 1use/day (lvl1). Sorry if that last bit isn't related but I hope one of the enlightened regulars here could answer me.

edit: Grr.. ok i had the two bonuses stack with a new character (18 dex, 16 wis), then i reloaded and it went back to just the dex bonus.

[Miloch]

It should give you the +3 AC no matter what your Dexterity is.  I can't really speak for that component, since Ascension64 coded it, and he may have just copied the original mod's resources there.  I *think* we may need to change the timing from 'Permanent' to 'Permanent after death' on the monk tome.  Though I'm not sure if that would help with the oddness you're seeing, maybe someone more knowledgeable about the game engine can answer that.

As for Sword & Fist, you might have better luck posting in the mod's forum (and I say "might" because the authors haven't been around a whole lot lately, but maybe someone else there will know more).