Author Topic: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu  (Read 26316 times)

Offline Ascension64

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[Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« on: April 11, 2007, 03:12:24 AM »
You will find BG1UB v4 beta 2 for BG1Tutu/EasyTutu nowhere. Check for a newer version. Please place all queries here and NOT in the Bug Report - v4 thread.

Changes:
  • Added BG1NPC checks to components "Angelo Notices Shar-teel", "Finishable Kagain Caravan Quest", "Coran and the Wyverns", "Kivan and Tazok", "Branwen and Tranzig"
  • Added placeholders for installation of all components
  • Updated Finishable Kagain Quest
  • Corrected bad StrRef for a line by Taerom in the Mysterious Vial component
  • Added "Creature Corrections" compatibility with the BG1NPC "Add Non-joinable character portraits for quests and dialogues" component
  • Added common code for Tutu area script assignment, replacing the older code checks
  • Marked the following components for future deprecation: "Creature Corrections", "Store, Tavern, and Inn Fixes and Restorations", AR0717 crash fix in "Area Corrections and Restorations", "Permanent Corpses", "Elven Charm & Sleep Racial Immunity", "The Original Saga Music Playlist Corrections", "Sarevok's Diary Corrections"
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 06:21:45 PM by Ascension64 »

Offline Antignition

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2007, 12:43:00 PM »
Awesome, appreciate the work that's been put into this.

I take it since there are now checks that the position of this mod would change on the EasyTutu mod install order thread over at G3?

If so, where does it go now?

Offline cmorgan

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2007, 05:46:40 PM »
Well, for right now, that means that this version of UB probably will go fine after BG1 NPC. It is still a pretty comprehensive mod, so I suspect that it will always e best in the head position, where it is now, as BG1 NPC builds some of its creatures from the main installer, and UB has those creature corrections, etc; I am downloading this version now to steal the flagging necessary, and will really push as hard as I can to get a new Beta out as soon as I can with appropriate flagging so that folks can swap around order between these two with no real fuss.

Huge thanks to the team that put this together, and to Ascension64 for moving this over into Tutu-land. Even though I may not use the restorations that BG1 NPC has alternates for, I recognize huge amounts of grunty, frustrating non-playing work when I see it -- thank you :)

Offline Salk

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2007, 10:53:09 PM »
I wish to thank you so much Ascension64 for his invaluable contribution to the community! He has a big quality (among the others): he can surprise me with greatest, high quality releases seemignly without effort...Again, congratulations!  :pirate

Offline Ascension64

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2007, 05:04:38 AM »
Huge thanks to the team that put this together, and to Ascension64 for moving this over into Tutu-land. Even though I may not use the restorations that BG1 NPC has alternates for, I recognize huge amounts of grunty, frustrating non-playing work when I see it -- thank you :)
Thank you. A team of two put this together (Ascension64, and all the posters over at the first beta release thread). I didn't really overtly say anything, and it also is not overt in the coding, but the portrait usage of BG1NPC is accounted for in the "Creature Corrections" component.

Haven't heard anything from Sim, but I might be vying to take over the BG1 portion of the project as well. Sim?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 05:10:29 AM by Ascension64 »

Offline Salk

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2007, 09:21:22 AM »
All this is very confusing. This project had actually started with Icelus. SimDing0 collaborated together with others like DevSin, CamDawg, Six of Spades, Idobek and Dudley. But Icelus was the project coordinator. Then he disappeared and after a time SimDing0 came to seemingly replace him (at least to my eyes) and now I have not detected SimDing0's presence on PPG for a long time and I can't help wonder why since I recently read few posts of his at G3. We all miss his activity here at PPG because he is a guy capable of making really good mods and it's a big loss for the community. I can just hope that he will be back soon but when that happens I am pretty sure he would just be relieved to not have to take care of BG1 UB any longer as there are so many projects he is busy with (Quest Pack, Virtue, Ding0 Tweaks,ecc. ecc.)


Offline cmorgan

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2007, 11:21:18 AM »
Lots of good foks here are working their tails off on TBH... which is a good thing. Folks who are dedicated and detailed enough to mod this engine *should* be the folks on the ground floor of a new one :)

Offline Miloch

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2007, 11:00:15 PM »
Yeah, it's quite a collaborative mod, so if we actually have someone willing and able to take over combined maintenance of BG1UB, I say more power to him.  All contributors and authors still get credit of course.

Offline Kulyok

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 01:59:49 AM »
Quote
Marked the following components for future deprecation: "Creature Corrections", "Store, Tavern, and Inn Fixes and Restorations", AR0717 crash fix in "Area Corrections and Restorations", "Permanent Corpses", "Elven Charm & Sleep Racial Immunity", "The Original Saga Music Playlist Corrections", "Sarevok's Diary Corrections"

I don't see how "Permanent corpses", "Store, Tavern and Inn Fixes and Restorations" and "Sarevok's Diary Corrections" should be anything but optional components in the future. I prefer to be able to rest in the Elfsong Inn, and I don't see why it is not available for rest with UB1 installed - I won't have it in my game. I don't want to read someone's interpretation of Sarevok's diary which I will *have to* install - I didn't agree with UB1 version, and I'd greatly prefer the original one.

Offline Miloch

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2007, 02:26:23 AM »
Why does BG1UB not let you rest in the Elfsong Inn?  Unless you mean resting without actually renting a room... then yeah, you should get thrown or at least tolchocked by the guards for doing that :D.

Offline Salk

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 03:39:10 AM »
Those are just components that everybody is free to either install or not.

The corrections to Sarevok's diary are not made by one passer-by but SixOfSpades who has a deep knowledge of historical facts and has corrected/suggested many inconsistencies during a long career as modders advisor. Personally I will undoubtedly install this component.

"Permanent corpses" has been borrowed directly from Dudleytweaks. Its logic is that dead bodies not slain by the player in battle should not disappear after a time but become skeletons instead.

About "Store, Tavern and Inn Fixes and Restorations" instead fixes many faults in the original game: incorrect innkeepers and missing stores, to say the most important.

Offline Ascension64

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 04:33:06 AM »
I would think that BG1 Fixpack itself is modular and would still give you a choice as to what components you like installed. You would have to heavily discuss the concept of what is a "Core Fix" and what should go somewhere else.


Offline Miloch

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2007, 09:46:26 AM »
Eh, really?  I'll ask Cam to give you access to the BG1 Fixpack workroom then - all sorts of discussions there :D.

These first two things sound like tweaks to me, regardless of how much sense they might make - so they'll probably stay in BG1UB.

I know there are glitches with various stores and whatnot that need to be fixed, but I'm not familiar enough with what all BG1UB does with them to say whether they're fixes or not.  Hence why I asked what it changed about the Elfsong.

Offline Kulyok

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2007, 10:51:42 AM »
Quote
Eh, really?  I'll ask Cam to give you access to the BG1 Fixpack workroom then - all sorts of discussions there .

I am terrible when it comes to working in a team of equals - for me it's either a dictatorship or me doing the dictating. But an open discussion as to what is a fix and what is not - yes and yes.

Offline Miloch

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2007, 02:56:54 AM »
Well it's sort of a stealth dictatorship.  A dictatorship masquerading as a democracy, not unlike several countries around the world.  We have an open discussion on these things, sometimes even heated debates and votes.  Then we pretend to incorporate everyone's suggestions, but in fact we patently ignore the outcome of those "democratic" processes and code things however we like.  And also fail to mention any of that in the documentation, which at best will look something like:
Quote
BG1 Fixpack, Version v00361xab-theta-with-secret-tweaks

Changes in this version:
Miscellaneous "fixes"
In fact I think there's even a post in the forum with these guidelines, thanks to Caedwyr.  Anyway, I'm not sure if that's a volunteer offer from you or not, but I'll process it as such anyway :D.  We could certainly use some help in sorting out what's a fix in UB and what isn't, which has been an outstanding thread for a while.

Offline Kulyok

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2007, 03:24:23 AM »
Quote
Anyway, I'm not sure if that's a volunteer offer from you or not, but I'll process it as such anyway

The post above was a clear No, and in any case, I'd be perfectly capable of speaking for myself. I do not appreciate decisions being made for me, thank you.

Offline Miloch

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2007, 03:28:34 AM »
The post above had two "yes"es and it wasn't clear to what they were pointing, so no, it wasn't clear (maybe to you - not to me).  Nevermind then :P.

Offline Kulyok

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2007, 03:39:36 AM »
An open discussion is a discussion carried out of a workroom, in an open, public forum. While it is not necessary for most 'optional' mods with optional components, I do think mandatory, 'must have' mods only benefit from it, as they do from having someone *one* in charge and full content/editorial control. I think BG2 Fixpack suffered greatly for the lack of open discussion in the process of its making, and BG1 NPC came out all the worse with fourth-wall breakage and unbalancing issues because of the lack of central management and the fact that all discussions in the open forum were shut down.

Offline Miloch

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2007, 03:51:45 AM »
It wasn't my decision to make it a private forum - it dates back to Idobek's intial work on the project years ago.  And I suppose CamDawg makes the final decision to what's on his forum and how it's hosted, particularly if it's Fixpack-related.  There is a public thread for the BG1 Fixpack on G3 (it's even linked in my signature there) but it's seen very little action or interest, so an entire forum seems like overkill.

Anyway, getting back to BG1UB... I'm still wondering what the issue is with the Elfsong, and whether any store fixes in the mod need to be segregated from other content (restorations or whatever).

Offline Ascension64

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2007, 06:37:47 AM »
Well, I currently don't have the time to look at all this for you, but if you simply open up the tp2, most fixes have been commented with what exactly they do. Reading the descriptions in the readme will also give you an idea of what some of the code wil do. I trust that now you have delved into WeiDU, Miloch, that you can now read some of the code.

To answer the Elfsong question, two things occur in the "Store, Tavern and Inn Fixes and Restorations" component:
  • Restore Elfsong bartender - changes _BART11 to _BART8
  • Store name changed to Elf Song

I believe changes to other stores are extremely similar to this case, but read the comments.

Quote
Starting now.
Yeah, but not here.

Offline Kulyok

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2007, 06:54:22 AM »
Well, if you are marking the components for future deprecation without even consulting the original authors, you should damn well expect negative reaction. But I do not care about the permission stuff here - I just don't want my TUTU games to be spoiled. And since Sarevok's Diary is UB1 component, then yes, it concerns this topic directly.

You have already given the BG1 NPC team a huge, huge headache called BGT(yes, I've listened to IER podcast - if not for your personal stubborness, I'd probably never come to be and we'd not have to deal with its existence). Thanks to it, I will never ever be able to read my own BG1 NPC code and dialogues properly - all filenames are changed to horrible %stuff%. Do not add to it by butchering TUTU with tweaks made obligatory, please.

Offline Miloch

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2007, 08:41:44 AM »
Well, someone's in an incredibly bad mood today.  Tax Day isn't the same in Russia as it is in the U.S. is it?

I believe what Ascension64 means by "deprecation" is that certain components of BG1UB are, in fact, fixes, and should be moved to a Fixpack.  This was suggested by the original authors ages ago as documented in the BG1 Fixpack forum, in a thread by icelus, Idobek, et al.:
Quote from: icelus
There has been a lot of bugfixing that has gone into the BG1 Unfinished Business mod so far.  I would be more than happy to transfer that material to the BG1 Fixpack, as it is a more appropriate place for it.

Probably what A64 means by "Yeah, but not here" is that the proper place for a discussion on fixes is in the BG1 Fixpack threads (either the private or public ones, I don't care) rather than the BG1UBv4 Beta 2 thread.

You have already given the BG1 NPC team a huge, huge headache called BGT
I probably shouldn't go there, but I don't know if the BG1 NPC team was ever forced to make their mod compatible with BGT.
Quote
if not for your personal stubborness, I'd probably never come to be
Unclear - implies Ascension64's stubbornness is responsible for your existence.  And if you meant "it" instead of "I" then it's unclear to what "it" refers.
Quote
Do not add to it by butchering TUTU with tweaks made obligatory, please.
Above all, BG1UB is a mod (a "restoration" mod at that) not a Fixpack.  The fact some fixes are in it was a matter of coincidence largely.  For example, devSin has said he put his fixes there because he had no better place for them at the time.  Almost all non-Fixpack mods I'm aware of contain obligatory material.  Or you can look at it the other way and consider the whole mod as optional (if you don't like it, don't install it).

Having said all that, I still think we can have a reasonable discussion about which components should be optional, which are considered fixes, etc.  But as Ascension64 says, "not here" - in another forum, or at least another thread here.  And I think we can do it without the personal attacks too.

Edit:
I trust that now you have delved into WeiDU, Miloch, that you can now read some of the code.
Eh... it's not a question of being able to do it (which may be questionable), but I don't have the time right now either.  But unless someone else volunteers to help out, or plainab pulls through with it, I'll probably get stuck with it eventually.  None of the changes you mentioned should prevent someone from resting there though, and if Kulyok can't elaborate on what she means by that (even with just a word or two - a *civil* word or two, that is :P), both my desire and ability to help are even further limited.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 08:53:32 AM by Miloch »

Offline Salk

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2007, 10:39:48 AM »
What I might just say to Kulyok is that there are people like me that can enjoy the BG1 NPC Project only because you are working on making it compatible with BGT. And I know I am not alone. BGT has quite a solid base of users and its author deserves all the respect we are capable of. Personally I know no modder that has been nicer to me since I joined this community and mind you, I have met many, many very nice people (not last, Miloch here above...). P.S. By the way, if we even get a chance at all to play BG1 Unfinished Business for TuTu is because there is a modder that doesn't put up fights between one platform and the other...
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 11:46:45 AM by Salk »

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: [Release] BG1 Unfinished Business v4 Beta 2 for Tutu
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2007, 02:35:38 PM »
I've read and reread this thread, and the fundamental problem I'm having is that I have no idea what anybody is talking about. Why are things being deprecated? Aren't those components already optional? Why is BGT forcing tweaks on Tutu? I am just left with the feeling that I have missed something significant. What the hell is going on?

 

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