Author Topic: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?  (Read 65160 times)

Offline CamDawg

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2007, 10:36:31 AM »
Firstly, I don't understand how being able to use a particular non-magical weapon is powergaming.  Perhaps you could shed some light on this for me.
Katanas are far and away the most powerful of the swords: 1d10, one-handed, can be used for backstabbing, has very minimal attribute requirements, and has a greater attack speed than bastard/long/two-handed swords and scimitars. The proficiency text warns you that they're going to be difficult to find. Why invest in a weapon that they're unlikely to find and doesn't make a lot of sense RPG-wise unless the eventual pay-off is worth it? I think we've just defined powergaming.

Secondly, it's not a case of "it's unfair, I want them!".  What I do want is for someone, anyone, to be able to start a new game, create any kind of character they want, and then not be like 'WTF?  What's the point in being able to choose a weapon proficiency if there aren't any weapons of this type to use'.  Just because they are rare doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one, just one FFS, until much later in the game.  This is all I'm trying to say.  Belive me, I understand what you're saying, I just wish that I could get my points across more effectively.
And I think we've hit the crux of the disagreement. Not all characters are created equal and I don't think the game should nanny poorly designed characters. If someone wants to create a fighter with 9 strength and 3 constitution, I don't think they should be able to find Bracers of Hardiness and a Stone Giant Girdle. Similarly, if a player wants to set aside the two warnings in the weapon proficiency selection screen and sink their pips into a rare and hard-to-find weapon, perhaps the weapon should be rare and hard for them to find. Yes, I believe the decisions of the players have consequences, and in this case the consequences are clearly spelled out. Twice.
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Offline Bursk

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2007, 10:48:58 AM »
Firstly, I don't understand how being able to use a particular non-magical weapon is powergaming.  Perhaps you could shed some light on this for me.
Katanas are far and away the most powerful of the swords: 1d10, one-handed, can be used for backstabbing, has very minimal attribute requirements, and has a greater attack speed than bastard/long/two-handed swords and scimitars. The proficiency text warns you that they're going to be difficult to find. Why invest in a weapon that they're unlikely to find and doesn't make a lot of sense RPG-wise unless the eventual pay-off is worth it? I think we've just defined powergaming.

Secondly, it's not a case of "it's unfair, I want them!".  What I do want is for someone, anyone, to be able to start a new game, create any kind of character they want, and then not be like 'WTF?  What's the point in being able to choose a weapon proficiency if there aren't any weapons of this type to use'.  Just because they are rare doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one, just one FFS, until much later in the game.  This is all I'm trying to say.  Belive me, I understand what you're saying, I just wish that I could get my points across more effectively.
And I think we've hit the crux of the disagreement. Not all characters are created equal and I don't think the game should nanny poorly designed characters. If someone wants to create a fighter with 9 strength and 3 constitution, I don't think they should be able to find Bracers of Hardiness and a Stone Giant Girdle. Similarly, if a player wants to set aside the two warnings in the weapon proficiency selection screen and sink their pips into a rare and hard-to-find weapon, perhaps the weapon should be rare and hard for them to find. Yes, I believe the decisions of the players have consequences, and in this case the consequences are clearly spelled out. Twice.

Fair enough.  This certainly is a reasonable justification.  I must say that I was unaware that the katana was so powerful.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me.

Offline CamDawg

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 11:04:14 AM »
It feels very odd for me to champion roleplaying concerns in Tweaks because several components can be used for convenience, powergaming, and/or outright cheating. Exotic Items was one I deliberately designed (much like Map Notes) to be minimal, balanced, and sensible. That's what makes me leap to its defense. :)
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Offline Bursk

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2007, 11:27:16 AM »
It feels very odd for me to champion roleplaying concerns in Tweaks because several components can be used for convenience, powergaming, and/or outright cheating. Exotic Items was one I deliberately designed (much like Map Notes) to be minimal, balanced, and sensible. That's what makes me leap to its defense. :)

I certainly understand your position a lot better (I didn't really understand it at all before) now that we've had this discussion, and I agree with what you're saying.

Neato.

Offline Miloch

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2007, 04:49:26 PM »
Is it possible to comment out certain entries from the list?
Yes.
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can I edit it to change the items the NPCs have without causing any errors e.g. for Beyn, change REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC14~ to REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ to give him Bracers of Defense AC 5 instead of Bracers of Defense AC 4?
Erm, yes, for the most part.  Those are both BG2 resources but I guess that's ok, since it's Tutu and they aren't otherwise in Tutu.
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Also, let's say I want Beyn to only have the Poisoned Throwing Dagger and Bracers of Defense, could I comment out the flail +2 entry e.g. by doing this:
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant
Yes - that should restore the normal Hammer he had originally.  Now you might leave the flail on him and make it ~UNDROPPABLE~ instead of ~NONE~ so he hits harder but the PC can't loot the flail.  If you want the PC to get the hammer but not the flail, just change REPLACE to ADD (Ascension64 invented this technique for another mod I'm working on :D).
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Further edit:  Would it also be possible for me to completely change the item a NPC gets?  For example, Jardak's Long Sword +1 is replaced by a Katana +2 (lordy!), but if I instead wanted him to have a normal katana, could I just change:
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SW1H55~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05
to
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SW1H43~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05
Yep (this is pretty much the same as your 2nd question above).
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And if I were to do such a thing, would it make the NPC automatically proficient in the new weapon (I'm curious as to how the mod deals with this already)?
Well yes and no.  I don't think the mod does deal with it, which is another reason for my "Urk."  If you're changing the type of weapon the NPC has, you also want to check their proficiencies and set it accordingly.  You can look this up in the IESDP, and the syntax would be something like:
Code: [Select]
WRITE_BYTE 0x6e 3 //Large swords proficiency of 3 (was # [whatever it was])Now in this case, the large swords probably covers both long sword and katana, so you probably don't have to mess with it.  We've been going back and forth on this on the G3 forums but the experienced modders seem to say the BG1-style 'blanket' proficiencies cover the respective BG2/Tutu-style proficiencies.  I think there's an entry that replaces a halberd with a wakizashi, so that should be checked.

And if you're going to do all that for this mod... cheers, it takes something off my to-do list. :D  I would suggest doing it in an optional group component so when installing you get something like:
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Install Component: Lost Items
1) Use original items
2) Use balanced items (nerfed if you prefer)
So the uber-powergamer-cheaters won't complain about the original stuff being gone. :P  Normally you'd want to ask permission from the original modder(s) before doing this but the guys in the readme seem to be long gone and also seemed to imply whoever wanted to fix things up a bit could do so.

It would be cool to add a splotch of dialog explaining the presence of the 'exotic' items in Candlekeep (if you choose to keep them there).  Another plausible explanation occurred to me.  Candlekeep is a library, but also basically a big monastery what with all the monks running around, the pilgrim chanters and whatnot, right?  Just like historical and modern monasteries, the monks in the order come from all over the place, as do pilgrims who visit it.  So it's quite likely one of them could have or be acquainted with 'exotic' weapons, and have passed on some knowledge to the PC, maybe even have some weapons hidden about.  It could in fact be Parda, the "concerned monk" who talks to you after the initial battle with the assassin where the 'exotic' items are stored (and Parda disappears into this building - little does he know you just looted his weapons though :P).

Offline Bursk

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2007, 12:48:32 PM »
Thanks for the info, Miloch.

I have had some further thoughts on how to customise this mod to my tastes (note that I'll also be using the 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies' component from G3 Tweaks), but before I get into all that I need to know how feasible it is for a character to play the first part of the game with a weapon they aren't proficient in?  Is it do-able, or would the THAC0 difference be suicide?

To elaborate, I'm trying to think of a way to 'naturally' introduce a normal wakizashi into the game, in a way that the player is guaranteed to encounter it.  I was wondering if having Nimbul wielding it would be a good choice (swapping out his Short Sword +1, or maybe making it so that he still uses the SS +1 but only the wakizashi is present when he's dead).  Would a player with the katana/wakizashi proficiency be able to get by with another weapon until the Nimbul encounter?  If so, I think this may be a good compromise between the powergamer being given one of the best weapons for free early on, and being punished for choosing the 'wrong' proficiency.

Feedback is very welcome.

Offline Miloch

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2007, 10:00:17 PM »
To elaborate, I'm trying to think of a way to 'naturally' introduce a normal wakizashi into the game, in a way that the player is guaranteed to encounter it.  I was wondering if having Nimbul wielding it would be a good choice (swapping out his Short Sword +1, or maybe making it so that he still uses the SS +1 but only the wakizashi is present when he's dead).
Why would you bother with that?  Unless you want to just give him the +1, the PC won't notice a huge difference.  And my main problem with this guy is the spells if I recall arightly, not his hit/dam potential.
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Would a player with the katana/wakizashi proficiency be able to get by with another weapon until the Nimbul encounter?
I guess that's highly speculative.  There are some who say the game is too easy, some too hard.  I'd argue that if you're picking something like an 'exotic' proficiency that warns you against it, you're getting what you ask for, meaning a harder challenge.  And if you're doing that, you probably know the game well enough that it should be fairly easy.  Though ultimately the game will become easier once you get your filthy mitts on even a regular katana, let alone a magical one.  Like Cam said, it's 1d10 like a two-handed sword, and you can dual-wield the buggers, and you can do it quickly.

Having said all that, I rarely rush in to kill Nimbul.  It's tough for me even with a buff party and some rather cheesy tactics (a lot of potion swigging for starters) at low levels.  A wakizashi isn't all that great though really, is it?  Where would you propose getting the first katana?  If you can just buy it at Nashkel Carnival (isn't that in 'Exotic Items'?), surely that would be easier (and a better weapon certainly) than trying to hold out for a wakizashi by killing an assassin?

Edit: Ok I actually went back and reread the spoilers above. :P  In Exotic Items, the first katana appears to be available at Firewine and the first Wakizashi at the bandit camp.  I think the Ninja-To in the flesh golem cave, which is pretty much the same as a wakizashi only a bit faster.  You could argue that a Scimitar +1 (available around Nashkel in Exotic Items and even earlier in the unmodded game) is a better weapon, or around the same at any rate.

So how about this.  You can get all those weapons earlier (maybe via Lost Items) - they're just crappy versions.  Not exactly cursed, but they're maybe made of bronze or sub-standard iron (even poorer than what's about normally in BG1 :D), slower and have either penalties or cause less damage.  They're also rare when you compare them with stuff like short and longswords.  But this would make sense both balance-wise and logically, and also give the player who chooses that proficiency the ability to get a weapon he/she specialised in (albeit, like I said, a crappy one).  There's certainly precedent for this - in most CRPGs you start off with 'shoddy' items and built up to 'masterwork' or whatever the case may be.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 10:19:54 PM by Miloch »

Offline Bursk

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2007, 05:52:21 AM »
Miloch, I've been giving the matter a lot of thought (probably too much) and all I really want to do is complement Exotic Items with a number of additional weapons, so that there's no 'wrong' proficiency choice at the start of the game.  But this doesn't mean that I want to make the game easy for those who choose exotic weaponry.

Keep in mind that my changes are based on using 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies', so the katana and wakizashi will share the same proficiency.  I took a look at a couple of characters using a weapon they don't have any stars in, and I found the following (I'm sure you already know this):

Fighter
THAC0 4* Prof = 17
THAC0 0* Prof = 21

Ranger
THAC0 2* Prof = 18
THAC0 0* Prof = 21

I'm guessing that it's possible these characters could make it to (and past) the Nimbul encounter using a weapon they aren't proficient in, provided they have a solid party to support them.

The reason I suggested keeping Nimbul equipped with his short sword +1 was so as not to make him easier, but then I did a test and found that he wields a throwing axe, so it won't make any difference if I swap the SS +1 with a wakizashi.  For my other changes, I wanted there to be a couple of greater magical non-exotics added, as I believe these aren't available in the stock game.  These added items appear late, so I don't think it will unbalance things (rather, it may balance up the spread of magical items to make any item type - expect maybe exotics - a decent late-game choice).

Here's the changes I propose to the Lost Items component:

Beyn - Change the Bracers of Defense AC 4 to Bracers of Defense AC 5 and remove the Flail +2 and Poisoned Throwing Dagger.
Gnoll Chieftan - Remove the Hide Armour.
Jardak - Change his Katana +2 to a Flail +2. Also remove the Sling +2 and Sunstone Bullet +1.
Nimbul - Swap Short Sword +1 with normal Wakizashi. Remove Gem Bag and Scroll Case.
Tam - No changes necessary.

I believe the tp2 changes should look like this (although I'd really appreciate someone checking this for me):

COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant

COPY_EXISTING ~_GNOLL_C.CRE~ ~override/_GNOLL_C.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~_SPER02~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP TWOHANDED //was _HALB01
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~LEAT10~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~ARMOR~

COPY_EXISTING ~_JARDAK.CRE~ ~override/_JARDAK.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SLNG04~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV3~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BULL04~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV4~

COPY_EXISTING ~_NIMBUL.CRE~ ~override/_NIMBUL.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~_SW1H46~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H08
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SWBAG02B~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV2~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SWBAG03C~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV3~

COPY_EXISTING ~_TAM.CRE~ ~override/_TAM.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SPER05~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ EQUIP TWOHANDED //was _SW1H07

These are the only parts of the 'Lost Items' component I wish to use.  Again, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to stop the other parts i.e. the other NPC changes and the location changes, being installed, be it through commenting-out or text deletion.

I'm afraid the part about reassigning BG1 proficiencies to the above NPCs went right over my head, so I could also use some help with that.  Sure, I know both bo and diddly about modding, but I am trying to learn.

Miloch, I'm sorry I'm not planning to do the major overhaul that you were proposing, but I really don't feel that this mod should provide too much if it's also being used with 'Exotic Items'.

Offline Ascension64

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2007, 04:58:37 PM »
Well, you could simply delete the parts of the code you don't like. There will be two instances of each, so if you use Tutu, just delete the ones where the CRE names start with an underscore ('_') and the ARE names start with FW. If you want to keep the code there, you can use /* for a start comment that spans multiple lines, then */ to end the comment. Use // to comment out a single line.

Using an example, you can comment out the _BEYN.CRE patch in three ways:

  • deleting the whole block
Code: [Select]
COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant
  • commenting out each line
Code: [Select]
//COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant
  • commenting out the whole block
Code: [Select]
/*COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant*/

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2007, 10:46:35 PM »
My 2 cents.

On Kara-Turan weapons: If the proficiency exists during Character Creation, then CHARNAME must have some sort of access to the weapon(s) in Candlekeep, or at least something similar enough to serve for training purposes. But due to their rare and exotic nature, the proficiency must have significant penalties. I would suggest capping the Katana/Wakizashi proficiency at a maximum of 1 point during Character Creation, as there's nobody who could train you. Any itinerant Kensai or Monk would be there solely as the attendant bodyguard of a passing Wu-Jen who happened to be able to read Common, and would in all probability have neither the time nor the inclination to instruct a local ruffian in anything more than a few basic cuts & feints. Nor would the Watchers be of any help in training--quite the opposite, really, as they would all laugh at CHARNAME's attempts to wield a curved sword, and urge him to take up a real weapon instead.

Nor would this theoretical Kara-Turan swordsman just casually dump his blades into some random container in the Barracks. What the heck were you thinking? Is this still Baldur's Gate 1 we're talking about here, or has this thread migrated to the Duke Nukem boards? Gifting CHARNAME with over 250gp worth of Oriental steel, free to dual-wield to his heart's content, and all for overcoming the horrifically daunting archfiend known as Shank, is the kind of thing that will make your mod suck, no doubt about it. No, this samurai would have sold his spare weapon, not given it away--he would have given CHARNAME his boken to practice with, if that. I do agree, though, that all Kara-Turan steel should be unbreakable: It was made far away and well before the advent of the iron crisis, so unless you actually dunk the blades in mineral poison or rub them with contaminated ore, they should be perfectly trustworthy.

My idea of distribution would be as follows:
Katana -- dropped by Melium, dropped by one of the adventuring party encountered in the Basilisk map
Katana+1 -- dropped by Tamoko
Wakizashi -- sold by Winthrop, sold by Taerom Fuirim, dropped by one of the Iron Throne party at the Nashkel Mines backdoor
Wakizashi+1 -- dropped by one of Sunin's guards
Ninja-to -- dropped by Nimbul, dropped by Credus, dropped by Thaldorn
Ninja-to+1 -- sold by Black Lily
Rare? Difficult to obtain? Late in the game? Guilty as charged. You were warned. If CHARNAME wants to use his Katana/Wakizashi proficiency right from Day 1, he should have to pay for it--probably even being forced to sacrifice the purchase price of the Splint Mail.

Ashirukuru, Shadow Warrior (in Durlag's Tower [TotSC])
Replaced Short Sword with Wazikashi +1
Added Boots of Phasing, Poisoned Throwing Dagger
Why? They're already nasty enough as it is, especially if you don't want to abuse (or have used up) Durlag's Goblet. Personally, I don't think invisible-by-nature creatures should have any loot at all.

Quote
Beyn (in the Ice Island cave [TotSC])
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Bracers of Defense AC4, Fail +2
I can see how he might be considered to be more powerful than Davaeorn, but then again he doesn't have the backing of a powerfully rich mercantile organization. His Bracers should be AC6, if that.

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Bishop (in the Chess game of Durlag's Tower [TotSC]
Added Full Plate Mail +1, Large Shield +1, Flail +1, Sling of Seeking +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
The Full Plate and Slings are too much, methinks.

Quote
Davaeorn ('boss' of Cloakwood Mines)
Added Scroll Case, Bag of Holding, Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
Personally, I would lose the sling & bullets, and move the BoH to one of the chests in his treasury.

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Gorion (umm, who is he?  :P Gets killed right after the tutorial)
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case, Potion Case, Scroll of Identify
Lose the Gem Bag and Potion Case and that's more like it.

Quote
Gnoll Chieftan (at Gnoll Stronghold and the area just South of the Lighthouse area)
Replaced Halbert with Spear +1
Added Hide Armor
I'd make it a Halberd+1, and frankly, I find it easier to picture a Gnoll wearing ragged bits of Chain armor.

Quote
Jardak (resides in a house in Baldur's Gate North)
Replaced Long Sword +1 with Katana +2
Added Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
Katana--no. Just no. And I think his (existing?) Crossbow is more appropriate than a Sling.

Quote
Nimbul (a hostile encounter at Nashkel)
Replaced Short Sword +1 with Scimitar +1
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case
I see no real reason for the Scroll Case, but the Gem Bag is appropriate in the sense that he expects to collect loot and riches from his vitims. The change to Scimitar is good (since the party just got a SS+1 from Mulahey), but more important would be correcting his hacked AC, giving him a pair of droppable Bracers of AC8, and changing his Throwing Axes to Throwing Daggers.

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Prism (Nashkel Mines exterior; the one hunted by Greywolf)
Added Gem Bag, Potion Case
This quest is overburdened with phat lewt as it is--let it be.

Quote
Raemon (in Tazok's tent in the Bandit Camp)
Replaced Long Sword with Spear +2
A Spear+1 would be better on Britik, the Gnoll. Leave the +2 verson on Tam.

Quote
Rashad (the poisoner of Duke Eltan in the final chapter)
Replaced Long Sword with Katana +2
Apart from the Kara-Turan weapons issues I blabbed about above, as a general rule Doppelgangers use no weapons at all. Are you sure he carries a Longsword?

Quote
Slythe (one of the assassins of Scar found in the final chapter)
Replaced Light Crossbow with Boomerang Dagger +2
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger
Only if you remove his Crossbow & Bolts. Let the Boomerang Dagger be of +1 enchantment, leave the +2 for BG2.

Quote
Tam (found in the exit of the Candlkeep Catacombs)
Replaced Short Sword with Spear +2
Good. As long as he's not the Gnome, that is.

Quote
Teven (at Bandit Camp)
Replaced Long Sword with Wazikashi +1
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger
He's too much of a low-level flunky to have good loot.

Quote
Teyngan (a bandit north-west of Nashkel)
Replaced Mace with Flail +1
Added Sling +1, Sunstone Bullet +1
What's with all the Sunstone Bullets? I say this guy is fine as-is, anyway. Not everybody in the world gets an enchanted weapon, after all.

Quote
Vax (a bandit south of Nashkel)
Replaced Halberd with Wazikashi +1
Added Ninja-To +1, 2 Ammo Belts, Poisoned Throwing Dagger
I would lose all of that except for 1 Ammo Belt--and it goes on Zal, not Vax. And Darts and Throwing Daggers use different proficiencies.

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FW2602 - Candlekeep Introduction: Shank's Shack
Added to Container 3: Potion of Healing, unbreakable Ninja-To, unbreakable Katana
An extra Potion of Healing in the beginning can be a lifesaver, and carries no risk of unbalancing the game. The weaponry, however, is right out.

Quote
FW4800 - Nashkel
Added to Container 7: Ammo Belt, Bracers of Defense AC5, Dart of Stunning
Replace in Container 7: Ankheg Plate Mail with Hide Armor
I don't get this change at all. First you store thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items in a little hole in the ground, and then you remove the Ankheg Plate, because the people of Nashkel don't leave thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items lying in a little hole in the ground. Wtf? The only things that might logically be found here are a low-level gemstone (not a Pearl), or a gold piece or two.

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Change stackable size to 50
I see no problem with this at all, unless there's already some other mod that changes it to 40, which I think is good enough. 20 is just too low, I ALWAYS run out of ammo in the Cloakwood, even if I stuff my guys' backpacks completely full before heading off.

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As you can see, you get a number of 'gifts' right at the start of the game with Lost Items.
See my point re: Duke Nukem.


[ADD] One thing I would add, though: There are two major changes between the loot found in BG1 and BG2. One, containers, has already been well taken care of. The other, Regeneration items, has yet to be addressed.  A Pearly White Ioun Stone could be added to The Surgeon and to one of the Red Wizards of Thay without upsetting anything, and since one of the major components of a Ring of Regeneration is part of a troll's brain, it seems right to put it in the abode of someone with access to plenty of these: Durlag Trollkiller. I'm thinking it would be perfect on the finger of the King in the chess game. Speaking of whom, however, the World's Edge needs some help: It's fine for BG1, but come BG2 and it's just a 2-Handed Sword+3, hardly worthy of the inflated title and the "it seems improbable that such a mighty weapon could ever be forged by the hands of mortals" that the Item Description keeps blathering on about. I'd say that this weapon could really do with an additional enchantment or two, to make it more unique, and less presumptuous in retrospect. A copy of it could even be added to the Improved North Forest component of the Tactics mod, along with the other loot from Durlag's Tower that's already there.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 11:32:33 PM by SixOfSpades »

Offline Miloch

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2007, 02:22:33 AM »
The reason I suggested keeping Nimbul equipped with his short sword +1 was so as not to make him easier, but then I did a test and found that he wields a throwing axe, so it won't make any difference if I swap the SS +1 with a wakizashi.
He has both the short sword and the axe in his weapon slots, and the short sword is equipped by default.  But that change probably doesn't make a big difference, as I said above.  If you wanted to keep a +1 hit/dam bonus *and* give him the wakizashi, I would raise his STR from 13 to 17.
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For my other changes, I wanted there to be a couple of greater magical non-exotics added, as I believe these aren't available in the stock game.  These added items appear late, so I don't think it will unbalance things (rather, it may balance up the spread of magical items to make any item type - expect maybe exotics - a decent late-game choice).
Fair enough, but I still think there could be shoddy exotics available early on.

Your other changes seem reasonable, but you might want to take SixOfSpades' comments and mine into consideration.  Once you get something you're happy with, I'll take a look and assign any missing proficiencies, and maybe make the changes you don't want to use an optional component, or just nerf them so they make more sense.

Any itinerant Kensai or Monk would be there solely as the attendant bodyguard of a passing Wu-Jen who happened to be able to read Common, and would in all probability have neither the time nor the inclination to instruct a local ruffian in anything more than a few basic cuts & feints.
Not if you buy the possibility one of the many Candlekeep monks could easily be Kara-Turan, and at Candlekeep either to seek enlightenment or specifically because of the Bhaalspawn prophecy, to train the PC.
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Nor would this theoretical Kara-Turan swordsman just casually dump his blades into some random container in the Barracks. What the heck were you thinking?
It's the priest quarters, and the monk in question (Parda for example) is quartered there (dunno if you read my post above even).  I did not design this mod (neither did Ascension64), but let's not be too close-minded about it. :P  But I think these weapons you get in Candlekeep should be bronze or some other inferior quality for balance purposes so the shoddy katana is more in line with, say, an average long sword (not sure why people aren't getting this idea either).

Your other recommendations seem reasonable enough, at first glance anyway (only playtesting would really say for sure).  Specifically, though:
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Davaeorn ('boss' of Cloakwood Mines)
Added Scroll Case, Bag of Holding, Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
Personally, I would lose the sling & bullets, and move the BoH to one of the chests in his treasury.
I wouldn't think Davaeorn not having a missile weapon would be an issue, but conceivably, he could run out of spells eventually I guess.  Might make sense to give him a normal sling and bullets or +1 at least.
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Gnoll Chieftan (at Gnoll Stronghold and the area just South of the Lighthouse area)
Replaced Halbert with Spear +1
Added Hide Armor
I'd make it a Halberd+1, and frankly, I find it easier to picture a Gnoll wearing ragged bits of Chain armor.
Normal chain?  Just FYI, this guy has base/effective AC of 2 wearing nothing.  A mod I'm working on gives him the halberd +1 and undroppable studded leather +2  I guess chain is roughly the same AC, though maybe also undroppable since any chain a gnoll would wear probably wouldn't fit a PC (and would likely reek something fierce :D).
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Rashad (the poisoner of Duke Eltan in the final chapter)
Replaced Long Sword with Katana +2
Apart from the Kara-Turan weapons issues I blabbed about above, as a general rule Doppelgangers use no weapons at all. Are you sure he carries a Longsword?
Yup.  Hasn't he shifted form?  A doppleganger duplicates its victim's clothing and equipment, so he might have a sword anyway.
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FW2602 - Candlekeep Introduction: Shank's Shack
Added to Container 3: Potion of Healing, unbreakable Ninja-To, unbreakable Katana
An extra Potion of Healing in the beginning can be a lifesaver, and carries no risk of unbalancing the game. The weaponry, however, is right out.
Ok, so how do you resolve that comment with this one?
If the proficiency exists during Character Creation, then CHARNAME must have some sort of access to the weapon(s) in Candlekeep, or at least something similar enough to serve for training purposes.
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FW4800 - Nashkel
Added to Container 7: Ammo Belt, Bracers of Defense AC5, Dart of Stunning
Replace in Container 7: Ankheg Plate Mail with Hide Armor
I don't get this change at all. First you store thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items in a little hole in the ground, and then you remove the Ankheg Plate, because the people of Nashkel don't leave thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items lying in a little hole in the ground. Wtf? The only things that might logically be found here are a low-level gemstone (not a Pearl), or a gold piece or two.
I don't get it much either, unless one were questioning how ankheg armour would be lying around a Nashkel farm.  The hide armour may make more sense, since even the description says it could be made of multiple layers of cowhide.  So maybe some bored farmer/wanna-be armourer's project... I dunno.  Being as how it's an easter egg in the original game, I'd be tempted not to mess with it, but I suppose it could be optional too.
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...the World's Edge needs some help: It's fine for BG1...
Enough said, then.  Modding BG2 would be beyond the scope of this mod (unless you're suggesting a change for BG2 Tweaks or something).

Offline Ascension64

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2007, 04:01:19 AM »
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What the heck were you thinking?
Heh, yep, I just converted the mod, I didn't write it.

Offline CamDawg

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2007, 07:06:05 AM »
There's not a mod in the universe that can't improve significantly with good feedback, and it doesn't come much better than from the Ding0 and 6oS.

I do agree, though, that all Kara-Turan steel should be unbreakable: It was made far away and well before the advent of the iron crisis, so unless you actually dunk the blades in mineral poison or rub them with contaminated ore, they should be perfectly trustworthy.
Agreed; the katanas, wakizashis, and ninja-tos from Exotic Items do not break.

[ADD] One thing I would add, though: There are two major changes between the loot found in BG1 and BG2. One, containers, has already been well taken care of. The other, Regeneration items, has yet to be addressed.  A Pearly White Ioun Stone could be added to The Surgeon and to one of the Red Wizards of Thay without upsetting anything, and since one of the major components of a Ring of Regeneration is part of a troll's brain, it seems right to put it in the abode of someone with access to plenty of these: Durlag Trollkiller. I'm thinking it would be perfect on the finger of the King in the chess game. Speaking of whom, however, the World's Edge needs some help: It's fine for BG1, but come BG2 and it's just a 2-Handed Sword+3, hardly worthy of the inflated title and the "it seems improbable that such a mighty weapon could ever be forged by the hands of mortals" that the Item Description keeps blathering on about. I'd say that this weapon could really do with an additional enchantment or two, to make it more unique, and less presumptuous in retrospect. A copy of it could even be added to the Improved North Forest component of the Tactics mod, along with the other loot from Durlag's Tower that's already there.
I'm not tremendously worried about The World's Edge, as it's already awe-inspiring for BG. Sure, BG2 makes it look lame (and especially ToB when everyone in Saradush has a +3 weapon) but it's still appropriate for the game in which it was intended. I think a regeneration item is an excellent idea. I think a full-blown BG2 regen ring is probably a bit overpowered, but something a bit less would definitely be appropriate.

One other item mod that applies to Tutu that hasn't been mentioned yet is Song & Silence. Raoul the merchant is at the Nashkel Carnival with his items, and some good thieving stuff has been added to Black Lily. I don't recall anything jumping out as being inappropriate; I bought some Caster's Chain and a Thieves' Hood from Raoul and the returning throwing dagger +1 from Black Lily.
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Offline Bursk

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2007, 07:47:09 AM »
Just time for some quick replies since I need to get back to work.  I'm pleased to see such a good response to this topic.

SoS, thanks muchly for your feedback.  Most of the changes you propose are way beyond anything I can do, but they seem very well considered.  One thing I do wish to draw your attention to is the description for Bracers AC 6:

These bracers were held for decades by an undefeated gladiator, and found extensive use in arena combat.  The death of this champion marked the disappearance of this magical item, but rumors persist that they are used to this day in competitive combat across the lands.

I guess there should only be one pair of these in the game.  If you think Beyn having Bracers AC 5 is too much, perhaps he could just get the AC 7 version.

Oh, and Lost Items adds not one but three Potions of Healing to Shank's shack, so this may need to be reduced to just one.

Miloch, I used the 'move to area' cheat to get to Nimbul on two separate occasions, and each time he had an axe in his hand.  As I mentioned above, the changes I suggested earlier are based on my ablility to mod i.e. zero. So all I'm able to do is tweak those NPCs that the mod already alters. Despite this, I still think the small number of changes I've made (although that's not to say they can't be improved by people with more knowledge of the game/setting than me) are good.  The spear +2 on Tam (which is in the stock mod) is very late in the game, and I do like the addition of a flail +2 since I don't think there is one in unmodded BG. Perhaps the Jardak encounter is too soon to see this flail +2 but, like I said, I'm only able to tweak those characters already altered by the mod. In this context, I couldn't see a better candidate for the flail +2 than Jardak.

Regarding SoS comments on Doppelgangers using no weapons at all, I also found that the Ashirukuru didn't drop any weapons or loot in the stock game, so I'm not sure how adding anything to them makes sense; something to keep in mind if you're going to be making your own version of the mod.  I like the spear +1 on the Gnoll since it seems a decent time in the game to find one, considering that you don't normally get one until you reach Baldur's Gate.  Would the normal Wakizashi (SW1H46) added to Nimbul be unbreakable by default?

I'm basing my changes on using Exotic Items alongside Lost Items. If an alternate version of Lost Items is made, I think it should be designed to be used as well as Exotic Items, not instead of, and should be balanced accordingly.  Hmm, forgot about S&S. Perhaps that should be taken into account as well when making changes to Lost Items.

Miloch, if you are going to be taking on this challenge, please give consideration to my changes.  The only things I am unsure about are the Bracers AC 5 on Beyn (is this overpowered?) and the flail +2 on Jardak (does it come too soon in the game?).  The spear +1 should be available reasonably early (certainly before the party travels to BG) even if it's not on the Gnoll Chieftan, the late spear +2 on Tam is fine, plus it just seems 'cool' that a character like Nimbul has an exotic blade.  I also like the fact that the party is guaranteed to come across Nimbul's blade, which is useful if there aren't any katanas/wakizashis available earlier.

Offline Miloch

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2007, 11:47:24 AM »
One other item mod that applies to Tutu that hasn't been mentioned yet is Song & Silence. Raoul the merchant is at the Nashkel Carnival with his items, and some good thieving stuff has been added to Black Lily. I don't recall anything jumping out as being inappropriate; I bought some Caster's Chain and a Thieves' Hood from Raoul and the returning throwing dagger +1 from Black Lily.
They're good items and not too overpowered - just cheap as hell.  Maybe some Cam butt-kicking @Andyr could get a new release out soon, for at least that one simple fix. :D

Miloch, I used the 'move to area' cheat to get to Nimbul on two separate occasions, and each time he had an axe in his hand.
Doh, well I guess I read it wrong - it says his selected slot is weapon1, which I interpreted to mean the first slot (where the sword is) but in fact that slot is weapon0. :P
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Regarding SoS comments on Doppelgangers using no weapons at all, I also found that the Ashirukuru didn't drop any weapons or loot in the stock game, so I'm not sure how adding anything to them makes sense; something to keep in mind if you're going to be making your own version of the mod.
What *is* an Ashirukuru?  It's coded as an undead human with a female elf thief animation and a male gender (note to self: fix this).  It should drop the sword at least, as far as I can tell.
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I like the spear +1 on the Gnoll since it seems a decent time in the game to find one, considering that you don't normally get one until you reach Baldur's Gate.
You can get a spear +1 in Firewine and Cloakwood as well in the standard game (and even Beregost if you kill Bjornin).  You can get a halberd +1 in Firewine, BG and Durlag's - it's slightly rarer too (and a better weapon at 1d10 vs. 1d6, but slower and not as powerful as a katana).  Up to you.
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Would the normal Wakizashi (SW1H46) added to Nimbul be unbreakable by default?
Yes - it is a BG2 weapon.  Only the Tutu/BG1 nonmagical metal weapons (those with underscores) have the breakage by default (it's coded as a spell/effect on the item).
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I'm basing my changes on using Exotic Items alongside Lost Items. If an alternate version of Lost Items is made, I think it should be designed to be used as well as Exotic Items, not instead of, and should be balanced accordingly.  Hmm, forgot about S&S. Perhaps that should be taken into account as well when making changes to Lost Items.
I would agree, being as BG2 Tweaks is so widely used.  I don't think the S&S items really conflict - they add different types of items, whereas Lost/Exotic Items add the same kinds of items.
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Miloch, if you are going to be taking on this challenge, please give consideration to my changes.  The only things I am unsure about are the Bracers AC 5 on Beyn (is this overpowered?)
I dunno... I don't think adding a single AC5 bracers late in the game would be that unbalancing (note to self: also fix nonsense gender of 0x9e on Beyn).  Also I'm reading the AC6 description as the possibility of there being several ("used to this day in competitive combat across the lands").  Not like that's a big deal - we could always use an alternate desc.
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and the flail +2 on Jardak (does it come too soon in the game?).
Jardak is in N. Baldur's Gate, right?  Isn't that fairly late in the game?  I guess you could put it on Tamoko who has a flail +1, but that doesn't give you much opportunity to use it.  It really isn't all that powerful of a weapon compared with some things, so I think it's ok.

I'll try to come up with something that incorporates everyone's suggestions, makes more of the components optional, and retains the original content as an option for those who want it (and to be fair to the original authors).  It shouldn't be too tough, since I don't have to come up with a bunch of new items or BAMs (maybe just for what 'shoddy' exotics you might get early on).  If you have other revisions or suggestions, just post them and I'll try to work them in. ;)

Offline Bursk

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2007, 12:20:50 PM »
My mistake about the spear.  Still, the Gnoll Stronghold is early in the game, so perhaps a halberd +1 would be too much.  But I'm happy to go along with the SoS suggestion, since he knows more about this sort of thing than me.

I agree that the ice island and Beyn will be tackled late in the game, so think the AC 5 bracers are okay.  I disagree with you about the AC 6 bracers description.  The only part you quoted could mean there's more than one set, but 'These bracers were held for decades by an undefeated gladiator, and found extensive use in arena combat.  The death of this champion marked the disappearance of this magical item...'.  This is clearly talking about a specific set of bracers, and having these plus another set (the ones you get from Davaeorn) saying the exact same thing would be daft.  If the Beyn bracers are AC 6, we will definately need an alternate desc (like you said).

Jardak is indeed in North BG.

What are your current thoughts on how the mod will take shape?  I'm curious about the shoddy exotics you mention.  Please try to make sure that the alternate, nerfed version of the mods pleases Cam and his balance issues!

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2007, 11:12:09 PM »
I had just written a neat, elegant to reply to everything in Burk's post and most of CamDawg's, and had copied what I wrote so I could include it in the same post when I replied to the next poster down . . . and Internet Explorer encountered a bug and needed to close. Gee, do you think my computer remembered what I had just copied to the clipboard? Of course not!

Therefore, everything I say from now on is 10 times more valid and self-evident than it sounds, 'cause I'm not typing that crap all the hell over again.

Yeah, I suppose a Kara-Turan might join Candlekeep as a Monk, but it's not really likely. Remember that we're only a few years after the Tuigan Horde overran Faerun, they're not exactly welcome. Exceptions exist, of course.

Why should Katanas, etc. be made of bronze or whatnot? Having them be exceedingly rare, and comparatively plain, should be enough. Besides, why would anyone carry a crappy weapon all the way to the Sword Coast?

Davaeorn still has a missile weapon--Throwing Daggers. I saw no need for a Sling as well.

Gnoll Chieftain drops unwearable Broken Armor, with a description that it was once enchanted Chain, split open so the Gnoll could wear it, and with or random armor oddments tacked on. It might lower his AC by a point or two, it might do nothing at all, it's mainly just there for flavor.

Doppelgangers' regular Claws seem to be more effective than a sword, and even if Rashad does actually use the weapon, he's the only one.

"Available" is not the same as "available immediately and for free." I did say that CHARNAME could have trained with a boken or even a curved stick, and there's a big difference between a Wakizashi that you can buy from Winthrop, and a Katana + Wakizashi that get dropped into your lap just for surviving a Level 1 Simpleton.

If you want to hide something, I can think of about a zillion better places to bury it than in a freshly-plowed field in rich farmland.

The fact that this isn't a BG2 mod is no reason not to mod an item that's currently only in BG1.

My "What the heck were you thinking" was aimed at the mod's author(s), not Bursk or Ascension or whoever.

If people like CamDawg didn't do all the work of actually writing this stuff, there'd be nothing to offer feedback on at all.

The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring: I consider it well outstripped by the Staff+3, Spider's Bane, and the SSoBackstabbing. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name. And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.

I'm wrong: Pearly White Ioun Stones shouldn't go to the Surgeon and a Red Wizard: They should go to the Surgeon and the stock of Sorcerous Sundries. 90% of the truly good items in the game come as loot, there should be more that you have to buy.

A Ring of Regen late in Durlag's is not overpowered; swiping it off somebody's finger on Day 1, THAT'S overpowered. Personally, I think it's fine for Chess Game loot.

I've always held that items with unique descriptions should be just that--unique. The Weimer mods add HOW many Rings of Protection+2?!?

Player decides to go to the Gnoll Stronghold early: Spear+1 in the cave in the Cloudpeaks, Halberd+1 on Gnoll Chieftain.
Player decides to stick to the Main Plot: Halberd+1 on Britik, Spear+1 in the Cloakwood Mines.

Where do you get a Spear and Halberd+1 in Firewine? Killing Poe might net you one, but the other?

I like the idea of Tamoko getting a Katana (if there's to be a Katana+2 in the game, she's the only one worthy of having it). It fits her background, her weapon choice in ToB, and the fact that she's a pureclass Cleric who casts Flame Arrow: A rulebreaker!

I still don't see why Beyn would have better Bracers than Davaeorn.

Offline Miloch

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2007, 01:53:02 AM »
Yeah, I suppose a Kara-Turan might join Candlekeep as a Monk, but it's not really likely. Remember that we're only a few years after the Tuigan Horde overran Faerun, they're not exactly welcome. Exceptions exist, of course.
I'm not an FR history buff.  And I'd rather not get into another discussion of "Why I don't read Cunningham, Salvatore, et al." :D  But if you are familiar with FR history, that's cool, maybe you can enlighten me.  So if some eastern horde just invaded, isn't it conceivable they could've left some weapons lying around (either their own or others they had contact with)?  I mean, wouldn't it be odd if they *didn't*?
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Why should Katanas, etc. be made of bronze or whatnot?
Well I've been doing a little research.  In our own world, Japanese longswords started out as straight (chokuto) with shorter broad swords and daggers, some with partial double edges (warabiti-tachi).  Bronze predates both of those, which would end up as different proficiencies anyway (kind of defeating this whole purpose).  So none of that is really an option.  There are some who think a katana is some sort of godlike sword, that there were no substandard ones and they were all masterwork.  All of that is rubbish - poorer quality katanas were mass-produced for the run-of-the-mill infantry, just as better ones were made for daimyo lords and whatnot (also contrast Japanese Bizen katanas with Edo or Shinto work).  That doesn't means the poorer ones are complete crap, they're just not as high quality.

So there's that option.  Now I also considered the option that the katana (and other exotics) that might be available to you early might not be a katana at all, but some other sort of blade that would share the same proficiency.  In my same research, I came across several that would fit the bill, but one in particular, the Burmese dha:
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The dha, although superficially similar to the Japanese katana, lacks the quality of most Japanese weapons.
Fits our beginning 'shoddy' exotic to a T, doesn't it?  For an image, see here - there is also a Yao hilltribe sword that could fit.  So our 'mystery monk' could be a wanderer from whatever the FR equivalent of Burma is, perhaps closer to the Sword Coast than the Japan equivalent (maybe Durpar, Estagund or Malatra - I'm sketchy here, so if anyone wants to shed some geographical light on the subject, please do ;)).  The Turkish yataghan might also fit the bill, somewhat smaller (perhaps more like a wakizashi) and curved but not as much as a scimitar, if you prefer our guest to be from Mulhorand or Murgom.  And if you're still like 'wtf would a Murgomi or Durpari be doing in Candlekeep?' well (aside from what I've sketched above) 'wtf would a Thayan be doing in Nashkel?'  Trying to kill someone who is Rashemeni? :D  The point is, the region isn't all that secluded and obviously gets a lot of traffic.

And you're not open to any of those suggestions... well *too bad*! :P  I'm making the component anyway and if you don't like it, don't install it. :P :P

(If you're interested, my research is largely from 'Swords of India and Southeast Asia' by Frederick Wilkinson, 'Japanese Swords' by Victor Harris and 'Swords of Islam' by Anthony North, in Swords and Hilt Weapons.  I also did some summary reading in the FR supplement Faiths and Avatars, on how commerce and various faiths can traverse continents on Toril.)
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Besides, why would anyone carry a crappy weapon all the way to the Sword Coast?
Why the heck not?  A simple pilgrim or monk would've carried whatever weapons he had, to protect him on the journey.  And he could've been quite good with the weapons (or he might not've survived the trip).  Like I said above, the weapons aren't complete rubbish necessarily, they're just not as high quality as others.  If he didn't have hundreds of GP to spend on new weapons, he probably didn't do so.  Moreover, the weapons could have ritual significance - perhaps handed down from ancestors.  Hence, they may be antique as opposed to 'modern' but still decent weapons.
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"Available" is not the same as "available immediately and for free." I did say that CHARNAME could have trained with a boken or even a curved stick, and there's a big difference between a Wakizashi that you can buy from Winthrop, and a Katana + Wakizashi that get dropped into your lap just for surviving a Level 1 Simpleton.
So you're saying the weapons should be available for purchase?  I appreciate your suggestions but I appreciate them more when there's less bandying about to figure out what the recommended approach should be. :P  Perhaps our mystery traveler sold them to Winthrop to get other weapons so he'd 'fit in' more?
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If you want to hide something, I can think of about a zillion better places to bury it than in a freshly-plowed field in rich farmland.
Discuss. :)  Though as I said above, inasmuch this is an easter egg in the original, I'd prefer not to muck about with it.  That and the fact that container removing/adding code is really messy, or extensive at any rate (ask Ascension64 :)).
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The fact that this isn't a BG2 mod is no reason not to mod an item that's currently only in BG1.
But you said the weapon in question was ok for BG1...
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My "What the heck were you thinking" was aimed at the mod's author(s), not Bursk or Ascension or whoever.  If people like CamDawg didn't do all the work of actually writing this stuff, there'd be nothing to offer feedback on at all.
Ok well we're talking about two different mods here - Cam was not involved in Lost Items (what the above refers to) either.  Exotic Items in BG2 Tweaks is his.  I'm not sure we know the Lost Items authors' whereabouts, so I guess we're considering the mod essentially GPL (and why we can debate all this with impunity :)).
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The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring: I consider it well outstripped by the Staff+3, Spider's Bane, and the SSoBackstabbing. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name. And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.
I'm confused... I thought you said this was ok for BG1, or are you talking about changing it for BG2 now? ???
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Player decides to go to the Gnoll Stronghold early: Spear+1 in the cave in the Cloudpeaks, Halberd+1 on Gnoll Chieftain.
Player decides to stick to the Main Plot: Halberd+1 on Britik, Spear+1 in the Cloakwood Mines.
Bleh.  Not sure if I want to (or *can*) code in logic that sophisticated, unless Ascension64 or Cam want to help ;).
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Where do you get a Spear and Halberd+1 in Firewine? Killing Poe might net you one, but the other?
Spear +1 on Poe, yes; my mistake on the halberd +1 - it is in Dryad Falls Cave (the area number is right next to Firewine Ruins).
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I still don't see why Beyn would have better Bracers than Davaeorn.
Balance, grasshopper.  Ice Island is later in the game (and only if you have TotSC) than Cloakwood.  The fact someone happens to have a better item than someone else doesn't mean they're more powerful or anything, any more than it does in real life. ;)

What are your current thoughts on how the mod will take shape?  I'm curious about the shoddy exotics you mention.  Please try to make sure that the alternate, nerfed version of the mods pleases Cam and his balance issues!
Well, that's what I'm trying to sort out! And satisfy your and SixOfSpades' suggestions. :P Pleasing Cam on the other hand, might be wholly out of the question :D.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 02:07:43 AM by Miloch »

Offline pro5

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2007, 06:55:32 AM »
There's a problem in this mod:
Code: [Select]
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.STO~ ~override/SWBAG19.STO~the bag of holding given to Davaeorn uses the contents of existing BAG19.STO which in unmodded TOB game is filled with following:

Arrows +2 x 40
Bolt +2 x 40
Potion of Extra Healing x 2
Haste Scroll
Flame Arrow Scroll
Stoneskin Scroll
Ghost Armor Scroll
Shadow Door Scroll
Chain Lightning Scroll
Breach Scroll
Dart +1 x 40
Short Sword +2
Long Sword +2
Bastard Sword +2
Two-Handed Sword +3
Dagger +2
Battle Axe +2
Spear +3
Halberd +3
Cleric's Staff +3
Morning Star +2
War Hammer +2
Mace +2
Long Bow +2
Short Bow +2
Light Crossbow +2
Sling +2
Leather Armor +3
Chain Mail +2
Plate Mail +1
Full Plate Mail +1
Helmet
Medium Shield +2
Boots of Speed
Adventurer's Robe
Small Shield +2
Bracers of Defense AC 7
Ring of Protection +1
Buckler +1
Katana +1
Bullet +2 x 40
Bullet x 40
Bolt x 40
Arrows x 40
Scimitar +1
Flail +2


 I think you might want to, errr... balance this a little. :P

Offline CamDawg

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2007, 07:06:30 AM »
The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring: I consider it well outstripped by the Staff+3, Spider's Bane, and the SSoBackstabbing. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name. And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.
Fair enough, and I think you've got a good idea of about where to keep the enchantments. I'd eschew the charisma bonus in favor of something else, though--with BG1 NPC adding a Ring of Human influence ( :( ) to the game, this would allow the PC to pump up their charisma to 22 (+ RoHI + Nymph Cloak + Helm of Glory). There are already enough charisma bump items. Toss in some random elemental immunity, perhaps, or a minor life drain a la Adjatha the Drinker.

I like the idea of Tamoko getting a Katana (if there's to be a Katana+2 in the game, she's the only one worthy of having it). It fits her background, her weapon choice in ToB, and the fact that she's a pureclass Cleric who casts Flame Arrow: A rulebreaker!
Originally, I wanted her to have the katana +1, mainly because it would taunt the observant player from the opening cutscene. But it works just as well (and legally) on one of her cohorts.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 07:42:41 AM by CamDawg »
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Offline Miloch

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2007, 07:36:32 AM »
There's a problem in this mod:
Code: [Select]
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.STO~ ~override/SWBAG19.STO~
That's messed up like a bad car accident.

Offline Gorilym

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2007, 10:02:13 AM »
...And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.
That would depend on when you go to Durlag's Tower - I usually go there right after killing Davaeorn, leaving the other expansion areas as well as the last three chapters for when the tower has been cleansed.

Ice Island is later in the game (and only if you have TotSC) than Cloakwood.
Not necessarily. After all, Ulgoth's Beard (and thus Ice Island) is accessible from the beginning of the game - the Cloakwood is not. Whether a low level party would actually survive a trip to I.I. is a different matter.

...with BG1 NPC adding a Ring of Human influence ( :( ) to the game...
I thought that had been removed sometime during the v12 beta 2 - beta 3 interval?

Offline CamDawg

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2007, 10:13:19 AM »
I'm playing v12 beta 3, and th RoHI is still there.
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Offline Gorilym

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2007, 10:24:07 AM »
Gah. The change must have been rolled back then - I remember distinctly that it wasn't there in my most recent run, with an internal version of v12 b3 installed. That ring REALLY needs to go.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2007, 11:11:02 PM »
I'm not an FR history buff.  And I'd rather not get into another discussion of "Why I don't read Cunningham, Salvatore, et al." :D  But if you are familiar with FR history, that's cool, maybe you can enlighten me.  So if some eastern horde just invaded, isn't it conceivable they could've left some weapons lying around (either their own or others they had contact with)?  I mean, wouldn't it be odd if they *didn't*?
I found an online "Roll of Years" somewhere once, and naturally I have since lost the URL. I was Googling Alaundo's prophecies at the time, as I recall. But no, my point was to wonder why anyone would have gone to such great lengths to carry a shoddy weapon across two continents. There would naturally have been plenty of Kara-Turan weapons left at the site of each major battle--but these would likely have been used as improvised farm implements, or forged into other tools, or whatnot, because the Faerunian survivors would have preferred their own, familiar blades. Note that this is what would happen to the poor-quality Katanas. The stronger and fancier ones would have been kept as souveneirs or relics, or (rarely) taken up by some open-minded Faerunian warrior. (Valygar's katana is somewhat different, as it's an heirloom and therefore predates the Tuigan invasion. But as he's the only black NPC in all of SoA, it's quite likely that the Corthala family emigrated from a region much closer to Kara-Tur.) And that's why I see little reason to leave "substandard" Oriental blades lying about. True, these less spiffy weapons could have ritual or family significance to those who brought them to the Sword Coast, but that's not the kind of thing that gives them value in other peoples' eyes.

As to the possibility of a Kara-Turan monk being among the scholars of Candlekeep, it's quite plausible to say that he/she entered the cloister well before the Tuigan invasion had even begun, and thus had practically no stigma at all. Of course, it would have been nice if BioWare had included a Monk, or even just a Watcher, with even just the slightest bit of Oriental flavor at all, but we can hardly blame them for that, as all of BG2 was just a glint in their eye at that point.

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Perhaps our mystery traveler sold them to Winthrop to get other weapons so he'd 'fit in' more?
That's pretty much exactly what I suggested in my original post, the hired sword-arm who sells his spare blade for walking-around money, or for gifts to try to woo Phlydia, or to purchase trinkets that he could then turn around & sell at a profit when he got home. Either way, it forces CHARNAME to sacrifice something if he wants to use (let's face it) an out-of-character weapon proficiency right from Day 1. Purchasing a Wakizashi with the limited means available means giving up the Dagger+1 (if you can get it), or the Splint Mail, or perhaps the entire stock of Healing Potions available to you, or it forces you to go to extremes and steal the Diamond. Any one of those is better than the current setup of the mod: I will always oppose anything that tends toward "Obviously the Best Weapon to Use," and therefore I will never support just sticking a Katana in a random box at the very start of the game.

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But you said the weapon in question was ok for BG1...
Okay, what I meant was "At least there's no reason to laugh at it in BG1." But in retrospect, how the heck could this sword have ever gotten a name or reputation so grandiose when there are +4s and +5s wandering around just south of the Cloudpeaks? Besides, if a weapon is to truly be interesting or appealing, it simply must have auxiliary enchantments. I mean, seriously. Raise your hand if you have ever purchased Warblade.

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I'm confused... I thought you said this [changes to World's Edge] was ok for BG1, or are you talking about changing it for BG2 now?
The changes I suggested (or, indeed, any number of similar improvements) would work for both games: Make the World's Edge worthy of its inflated status in BG1 (maybe even making it worth the trouble of going & getting it), and make it so it won't be completely outclassed if somebody should mod it into BG2. The latter is not really our concern, but the former is.

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Quote
Player decides to go to the Gnoll Stronghold early: Spear+1 in the cave in the Cloudpeaks, Halberd+1 on Gnoll Chieftain.
Player decides to stick to the Main Plot: Halberd+1 on Britik, Spear+1 in the Cloakwood Mines.
Bleh.  Not sure if I want to (or *can*) code in logic that sophisticated, unless Ascension64 or Cam want to help.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't implying any "IF MinscQuestAccepted OR EdwinQuestAccepted, THEN create SPER08.ITM on GNO1234.CRE" or anything like that. I was just expressing my satisfaction that whichever major course the player decides to take in early Chapter 3, they will soon have access to both types of enchanted polearms. (And I believe there's another Halberd in the Ulcaster dungeon, too.) Speaking of which, I'd like to urge that there should be at least one additional Axe+1 floating around in the early game; it doesn't really matter where. It just sucks that there's only ONE enchanted Axe in the entire first 4 chapters of the game, you have to buy it at the store with (I think) the most exorbitant prices in the game, and if you want an Axe+2, you either have to know just how to make it available, or wait until Chapter 6.


The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name.
I'd eschew the charisma bonus in favor of something else, though . . . There are already enough charisma bump items. Toss in some random elemental immunity, perhaps, or a minor life drain a la Adjatha the Drinker.
Yeah, I was just tossing out something that seemed fairly in-character for the weapon. Ideally, the enchantment should have something to do with the alleged extraplanar origin of the blade . . . like creating a small dimensional tear in the flesh of the victim, for additional Bleeding damage or something like that.

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Originally, I wanted her [Tamoko] to have the katana +1, mainly because it would taunt the observant player from the opening cutscene. But it works just as well (and legally) on one of her cohorts.
I'm not really concerned about Clerics not legally being allowed to wield bloodletting weapons, particularly as this is a Kara-Turan god we're talking about her serving. Besides, BioWare had all the time in the world to think about what kind of gear to give her in ToB, and they saw fit to have her dual-wield a Katana & Wakizashi.
[ADD] Oh, and Haseo isn't one of Tamoko's cronies. She's there to protect Sarevok from those seeking revenge--mainly, CHARNAME--while the Iron Thronies are there to kill Sarevok for destrying their reputation.


That would depend on when you go to Durlag's Tower - I usually go there right after killing Davaeorn, leaving the other expansion areas as well as the last three chapters for when the tower has been cleansed.
Really? I tend to leave most non-Main-Plot areas for right after the beginning of Chapter 7, so I can stomp through them quickly and then go pull some smackdown in the Duchal Palace. But, in general, I believe that most people don't go to Durlag's until they've sampled at least a few of the tastier morsels in BG City.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 11:25:00 PM by SixOfSpades »

 

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