The Darkiest Day Xzar & Montaron

[the bigg]

When do you have to click through 50 popups at once???

\me was exaggerating

Also, tfwbr(ac) doesn't tell me jack about what is wrong with the file, so it isn't terribly helpful in debugging problems.

[Azazello]

Ahhh, the good ole pissing contest over "TDD bad" - "TDD good". I love how we often return to the classics.

For those just tuning in, the merits/horrors of TDD are being discussed within the thinly-veined animosity of certain personalties, orginated from from years-past but continued to this day.

We now return you to today's pointless debate.

[Creepin]

For those just tuning in, the merits/horrors of TDD are being discussed within the thinly-veined animosity of certain personalties, orginated from from years-past but continued to this day.

I know, I know - seen it since TeamBG was still here It's just that my dislike of personal relations that are allowed to turn into mod wars slowly grows through all this years until I couldn't resist from saying something on topic

[notasophist]

It's just that my dislike of personal relations that are allowed to turn into mod wars slowly grows through all this years until I couldn't resist from saying something on topic

Weidu vs TeamBG Tools is a mod war. TDD being bad is a general consensus.

[Avenger_teambg]

It's just that my dislike of personal relations that are allowed to turn into mod wars slowly grows through all this years until I couldn't resist from saying something on topic

Weidu vs TeamBG Tools is a mod war. TDD being bad is a general consensus.

This is a bit of oversimplification.

1. Weidu vs TeamBG Tools:
the core of this problem is not weidu vs. tbg tools, the main thing is: npc mods alter only dialogs/scripts, for this alteration and the occasional items weidu is more than enough. Also added the install/uninstall features of weidu, it makes weidu more than enough for those that are only into this type of modding.
TeamBG tools like IETME, IDU suffered from severe and frustrating bugs, because they were not updated frequently.
Anyway, for a long time area editing was possible only by IETME. To emphasize that this isn't a teambg vs. weidu thing, DLTCEP, a second gen. teambg tool itself, works with WeIDU, i first planned to use the original script compiler which comes with the game (at least with bg2), but weidu is so much better that i finally didn't implement that part. Nor did i implement a new compiler (though a basic compiler dltcep would requre doesn't involve so much work, it is already implemented for gemrb).


2. TDD being bad:
Yes, no one disputes this. Not even Max and Minto, or Hlidskialf Or me.
I just mentioned, that TDD was created when there was no Weidu, no NI, no DLTCEP. There was IETME, IDU and IEEP.

[NiGHTMARE]

Even the people who made TDD think it's crap.

[SimDing0™]

For those just tuning in, the merits/horrors of TDD are being discussed within the thinly-veined animosity of certain personalties, orginated from from years-past but continued to this day.

No, no, no. I am not condemning TDD because I have an ulterior motive. I am not condemning TDD because of some obscure "mod war" or other such nonsense. I am not condemning TDD because I am a horrible person.

I am condemning TDD because *I do not think the mod is very good*.

Why is this confusing?

[notasophist]

This is a bit of oversimplification.

1. Weidu vs TeamBG Tools:
the core of this problem is not weidu vs. tbg tools, the main thing is: npc mods alter only dialogs/scripts, for this alteration and the occasional items weidu is more than enough. Also added the install/uninstall features of weidu, it makes weidu more than enough for those that are only into this type of modding.
TeamBG tools like IETME, IDU suffered from severe and frustrating bugs, because they were not updated frequently.
Anyway, for a long time area editing was possible only by IETME. To emphasize that this isn't a teambg vs. weidu thing, DLTCEP, a second gen. teambg tool itself, works with WeIDU, i first planned to use the original script compiler which comes with the game (at least with bg2), but weidu is so much better that i finally didn't implement that part. Nor did i implement a new compiler (though a basic compiler dltcep would requre doesn't involve so much work, it is already implemented for gemrb).

True. I've oversimplfied the history a bit, but I was illustrating the point that the animosity amongst modders was never about TDD.

EDIT: By the way, I agree with you regarding TDD as a essential achievment in modding history, regardless of its content.

[Avenger_teambg]

Even the people who made TDD think it's crap.

That is not a question.
The question is, have you made anything better?
Even if you did, you definitely made your better stuff using the experience TDD gave.

[the bigg]

- How does this make it a good mod to play?
- Even if it is good to play, why to install modern WeiDU NMP mods I just double click the setup program, while for the WeiDU version of BMP mods I need to follow 40+ different steps, penance the need to reinstall everything?

[NiGHTMARE]

That is not a question.
The question is, have you made anything better?

For an Infinity Engine game? Nope, not yet at least.  For another game? Sure.

Even if you did, you definitely made your better stuff using the experience TDD gave.

The two aspects of TDD which I personally dislike the most are the poor dialogue and ill-conceived quest ideas.  The quality and abilities of the tools available at the time have absolutely no relevance to  either of these issues.

[Creepin]

Instead of beating the air over and over again may be it's time to make something like "TDD Re-revisited"? Improve old dialogues, add a handful of small to tiny subquests and some minor encounters to enliven new cities... this kind of things

[SimDing0™]

Or we could forget TDD and work on good mods with the newfound knowledge it's given us. Which is very much what I've been doing for the last 4 years.

[Creepin]

To forget about 3 new cities, whole bunch of quests, locations and encounters? Nah, as an old BP fan I would never abandon anything that expands my BG world bit further

[SimDing0™]

The new cities are a joke. Recycled graphics? No thanks.

[Creepin]

Of course I would prefer all-new city filled with life, quests and stories, but this is not the option and recicled city is still better than no city at all

[SimDing0™]

Untrue.

[EDIT] I have been alterted that this thread makes me look silly.

[Creepin]

[EDIT] I have been alterted that this thread makes me look silly.

Sorry - it wasn't my intention to spoil your image

[the bigg]

Of course I would prefer all-new city filled with life, quests and stories, but this is not the option and recicled city is still better than no city at all

So, OK, today, after you go shitting, why don't you recycle the old food and eat it again, rather than buying new food? You like recycled areas after all...

[Creepin]

Of course I would prefer all-new city filled with life, quests and stories, but this is not the option and recicled city is still better than no city at all

So, OK, today, after you go shitting, why don't you recycle the old food and eat it again, rather than buying new food? You like recycled areas after all...

I'm positively astonished - it doesn't even require any scratching for a usual cheap cad to show throurgh the thin gilt of "friendly helpful modder"
Hope you don't mind if I refrain from continuing this little discussion on your level?

[the bigg]

it doesn't even require any scratching for a usual cheap cad to show throurgh the thin gilt of "friendly helpful modder"

Who said I am a FHM?

[Creepin]

Duh!(http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/style_emoticons/default/doh.gif) My mistake.

[notasophist]

Of course I would prefer all-new city filled with life, quests and stories, but this is not the option and recicled city is still better than no city at all

If you love TDD so much why don't you marry it? uh I mean build your own fixes, instead of crying and whine about it? Give it a try, everyone wins in the end -- you realize it's crap (the more likely case), or TDD gets better. Don't expect too many modders to help though.

Here is an advice: Do it yourself and learn how to mod. Modders do not take whiners and beggers seriously.

[Creepin]

If you love TDD so much why don't you marry it? uh I mean build your own fixes, instead of crying and whine about it? Give it a try, everyone wins in the end -- you realize it's crap (the more likely case), or TDD gets better. Don't expect too many modders to help though.

Here is an advice: Do it yourself and learn how to mod. Modders do not take whiners and beggers seriously.

First: It would be greatly appreciated if you be so kind as to show me where exactly I was either crying, whining or begging, so that I could finally regard this post as having at least some degree of constructiveness, not just another piece of sh*t flame. I've expressed my opinion, elaborated it since my opponents pretends that they didn't understand it, and finally added some constructive idea in an attempt to make some positive use of othervice useless argument. You really do see here some whining? *shrugs*

Second: I'm a gamer, not modder. If at any moment I'll prefer modding BG over playing BG, I'll learn it.

[the bigg]

First: It would be greatly appreciated if you be so kind as to show me where exactly I was either crying, whining or begging

Instead of beating the air over and over again may be it's time to make something like "TDD Re-revisited"? Improve old dialogues, add a handful of small to tiny subquests and some minor encounters to enliven new cities... this kind of things