Sorry about this - The next Harry Potter Thread

[Bex]

The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle is a really beautifully-written fastasy book.

did you read his "A Fine and Private Place" ?  i loved that one too.

No, but I've been thinking about seeing what my library has by him and checking them all out.

[Joe]

Plagiarized?  Say it sucks if you want, but you really should provide proof when accusing an author of something so severe.

Eye of the World (book one) *is* proof. I read about 130 pages before I quit.

But you want examples, don't you?

Well how about Misty Mountains vs. Mountains of Mist?

The Myrdraal vs. Nazgul?

Mat, Rand, Perrin (lol, Pippin + Merry) vs. Frodo, Sam, Pippin, Merry

I understand there are others blatant to those who have read the Dune series and a few others.

[Drew]

Mat and Perrin aren't two peas in a pod.  You haven't read far enough to know that, though.  The kind of stuff you are calling plagiarism simply is not.  Nearly every fantasy novel ever written makes some kind homage to Tolkien.  If that's plagiarism, then every author of fantasy does it.

[Joe]

I exaggerated when I used the word plagiarism, but at best Jordan's work is unoriginal. Paying homage to Tolkien is one thing, but the things I listed falls under blatant idea thievery. Don't give me this "every author of fantasy does it" crap; ripping off Tolkien in the way Jordan has. Having a "Dark Lord"? Okay, that's cool. A struggle between good and evil? That's pretty cool, too. Standard stuff. Fictional races? Part and parcel. But using virtually identical ideas? That is just shameful.

Also, the premise of the story and Rand's character history is just...stupid. Again, unoriginal. And now that I see that it has taken nearly twenty years for the man to finish a series that apparently has slowed to a crawl with no consequence to the story overall, the entire work seems a sham.

As far as Mat and Perrin go, I never said they were peas in a pod. But compare the boys, as country bumpkins driven from their rural lives to fight great evil, to the Hobbits who fit a similar bill.

[Drew]

Meh.  At least you're just saying they suck now.  I can live with that.  I do have to say, though, that the actual storyline of Jordan's series (which, in my opinion doesn't even start until the second book) bears no similarity to anything I've ever read.  And I'm a fucking dweeb so I read a lot.  But, to each his own.....

[Aurora]

"It so irritates me how this series is yet another one of those things that could have been great and amazing"

No, it probably couldn't have been. Her plotting is quite average, her characters are stereotypes, and none the descriptions or ideas she presents are particularly original or thoughtful - in fact, I've seen a lot of them done better in other YA series.

Books written for that age group that I still find charming include:
Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles (fantasy, Welsh-based)
LA's Vesper Holly series (late 1800s pulp)
Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness Quartet (fantasy, pseudomedieval)
Tamora Pierce's The Immortals Quartet (fantasy, pseudomedieval)
Patricia C. Wrede's Chronicles of the Enchanted Forest (fantasy, parody)

[Borsook]

Regardless of how unpolular it may make me I must state I really enjoy HP series and JK's writting style. Sure this isn't something that will change literary history but still the books are enjoyable, and even if the characters are archetypical and the author not always uses logic... still, screw it, I'm having a lot of fun reading it...

[melora]

Regardless of how unpolular it may make me I must state I really enjoy HP series and JK's writting style. Sure this isn't something that will change literary history but still the books are enjoyable, and even if the characters are archetypical and the author not always uses logic... still, screw it, I'm having a lot of fun reading it...

i have to agree, i have enjoyed these books, they were fun to read. not classics, but fun. 

[Regullus]

 I haven't read the books but I probably will have to read them at some point. I have sorta seen a couple of the movies but they didn't make much of an impression on me.  What I was wondering is why does everybody think the series is so exceptionally popular?

 I gathered by comments that the books contain neither exceptional writing, nor seem particularly original in characterization, dialogue or plot and yet the books and movies have had amazing success, and the creative outpouring and perversion of the fanfiction is astonishing.

 

[Borsook]

I have sorta seen a couple of the movies but they didn't make much of an impression on me.  What I was wondering is why does everybody think the series is so exceptionally popular?

Movies are much, much worse. And the books are mostly popular with children for whom this is their first touch of fantasy... Not to mention that while not oustanding the books really have a nice atmosphere and read really quickly and welll...

[Aurora]

I haven't read the books but I probably will have to read them at some point. I have sorta seen a couple of the movies but they didn't make much of an impression on me.  What I was wondering is why does everybody think the series is so exceptionally popular?

 I gathered by comments that the books contain neither exceptional writing, nor seem particularly original in characterization, dialogue or plot and yet the books and movies have had amazing success, and the creative outpouring and perversion of the fanfiction is astonishing.

 

-Very easy to read and understand - written simply, not quite condescendingly.
-Easily-identifiable stereotypes - there's no danger of deep, dull characterization when you know well each role each character plays and will continue to play, excepting the occasional SHOCKING TWIST.
-"Fun" fantasy with high magic - you have examples of magic that resemble technology we don't have (the trading cards with wizards that move and do things like they're tiny videos), examples of magic that have special altered technology that would just be super-cool (flying car, flying brooms), and magic that's just magic (pretty sparkles).
-Strong enough concepts of "good" and "evil" that many people can project much of their own personal philosophies onto the books. How many "it's okay to read HP, Christians!" books are there? (probably more than the "HP = devil" books)
-Male lead, so that everyone can identify with him.
-Lead who had a crappy life, but then become special and famous because of circumstances of his birth he had no clue about - maybe you could get lucky and end up whisked away to a magical land because you're secretly Chosen!

Of the kidlet series I mentioned, several featured ambiguous morality - there are still concepts of good and evil, but many of the villains or less-likeable characters are more fleshed out. Most had female leads, which means that boys are going to be much more relucant to read them. Most preferred archetypes to stereotypes, and when either character-type was used they tended to be fleshed out. One required knowledge of other fantasy works. One has fairly stylized writing, which, though not hard to read, may be offputting or confusing to some younger readers (they might actually miss the point of the character's pecular narration).

I haven't the slightest clue why the HP books are so popular with adults.

[Jon]

-Strong enough concepts of "good" and "evil" that many people can project much of their own personal philosophies onto the books. How many "it's okay to read HP, Christians!" books are there? (probably more than the "HP = devil" books)

I know a lot of Christians who love the books and are able to realize that Rowling is not trying to corrupt the youth of the world and turn us all into Satan-following wizard and witches.
My mom, on the other hand..
Hah.

[Alarielle]

-Strong enough concepts of "good" and "evil" that many people can project much of their own personal philosophies onto the books. How many "it's okay to read HP, Christians!" books are there? (probably more than the "HP = devil" books)

I know a lot of Christians who love the books and are able to realize that Rowling is not trying to corrupt the youth of the world and turn us all into Satan-following wizard and witches.
My mom, on the other hand..
Hah.

I'd like to think I'm a decent Christian, and I thoroughly enjoy the Harry Potter series.  True, it's not exactly awe-inspiring literature, but it's good fun and, more importantly, it gets kids to read!

[Jon]

Thanks for all the book reccomendations.

"It so irritates me how this series is yet another one of those things that could have been great and amazing"

No, it probably couldn't have been. Her plotting is quite average, her characters are stereotypes, and none the descriptions or ideas she presents are particularly original or thoughtful - in fact, I've seen a lot of them done better in other YA series.

Yeah, you're right there, but what I mean't was that if she gave each character (even the lowly background characters) a bit more personal depth, then they could be something more than just sterotypes; they could actually be decent characters instead of words on the page.

I completely forgot about the books being written for a younger audience. When Drew pointed that out I remembered sitting in my fourth grade classroom talking with my best friend about why he thought Harry Potter was so good. He had The Sorcerer's Stone in his hand and kept going on about how much he liked Hagrid.

[Jon]

-Strong enough concepts of "good" and "evil" that many people can project much of their own personal philosophies onto the books. How many "it's okay to read HP, Christians!" books are there? (probably more than the "HP = devil" books)

I know a lot of Christians who love the books and are able to realize that Rowling is not trying to corrupt the youth of the world and turn us all into Satan-following wizard and witches.
My mom, on the other hand..
Hah.

I'd like to think I'm a decent Christian, and I thoroughly enjoy the Harry Potter series.  True, it's not exactly awe-inspiring literature, but it's good fun and, more importantly, it gets kids to read!

Yeah, I agree with you. When I was a kid she kept trying force me to read the Bible. She wouldn't let me read anything else, except a couple other (really good) childrens' books like Clifford - the big red dog - and the Barenstien Bears. So I 'borrowed' books from my sisters personal library.

You'd think that after all these years, phyco-Christians like my mom would realize that holding a gun under your nose until you read the Bible cover to cover is not a good way of converting.

Anyway, Harry Potter is a fun read, but.. Ah, I still say it could have been much better, and I'm taking that to my grave

[jcompton]

I haven't the slightest clue why the HP books are so popular with adults.

I'll go a step further and wonder why they're such a hit outside the UK.

They are, when it comes right down to it, books about the traditional boarding-school experience, just with a twist (everybody's a magician!). While I understand that is relatively less common nowadays than it once was, it's still a part of the Grand British Heritage and is the kind of experience you're "just supposed to know about." In a similar vein, children's stories about pioneering and rural/farm life remain popular in the US despite the fact that very few children grow up anywhere near a farm nowadays--it's just a part of the culture.

Why the rest of the world is so intrigued about the British boarding school experience, I have no idea.

[Bex]

I read tons (tonnes!) of stuff about boarding schools as a kid. A lot of it was by Enid Blyton, but there were other authors as well. It was outside of my experience, sure, but I enjoyed them no less.

I'll offer the theory that I had a bit of a thing for stories that involved children away from the influence of their parents. They could be at boarding school, or they could be war orphans, but I think it was the relative independence that sold me. Yes, boarding school has masters and mistresses, but they're not around all the time like parents. I guess the "what if" aspect intrigued me.

[Aurora]

^-- I like that theory. A lot of the books I enjoyed had kids away from their parents - hell, all the best books did, because how can you have adventures with your parents right there? Still, I don't get why that'd resonate with adults - sure, most everyone would love to get away from authority, but most adults are authority figures to 12-year-olds.

-Strong enough concepts of "good" and "evil" that many people can project much of their own personal philosophies onto the books. How many "it's okay to read HP, Christians!" books are there? (probably more than the "HP = devil" books)

I know a lot of Christians who love the books and are able to realize that Rowling is not trying to corrupt the youth of the world and turn us all into Satan-following wizard and witches.
My mom, on the other hand..
Hah.

Well, let's see. On the "Harry Potter is ok for Christians" side:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1414300913/qid=1138490028/sr=1-25/ref=sr_1_25/102-4988633-4634559?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/031230871X/ref=pd_sim_b_3/102-4988633-4634559?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591021332/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-4988633-4634559?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

On the other side:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0889652015/ref=pd_sim_b_5/102-4988633-4634559?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
...you know, there are too many on either side.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/102-4988633-4634559?url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above&field-keywords=Christianity+-+Christian+Life+-+Pop+Culture+Issues+harry+potter&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
Hopefully that search link works: there are 342 books discussing HP & Christianity (and some discuss other things, like Star Wars). Maybe your mom will appreciate some of them!

[jcompton]

I read tons (tonnes!) of stuff about boarding schools as a kid. A lot of it was by Enid Blyton, but there were other authors as well. It was outside of my experience, sure, but I enjoyed them no less.

But are American Pioneering/Rural Life children's stories as popular outside the US? Certainly none to the extent of Potter. (Not that I would wish reading My Antonia on anyone, mind you.)

Actually, while we're here, and in a semi-clever gesture to get everyone to please stop talking about religious interpretations or condemnations of Harry Potter, there is a series of rural-life children's/YA books I remember reading years ago. But I can't remember WHICH book(s).

Here's what I remember.

- I believe it was set around 1900.
- The story revolved around a group of brothers (3?) living in a rural US setting. I believe it was told in first-person by one of the younger brothers (the youngest?) but I can't swear to that.
- The characters would more-than-occasionally "munch on a heel of bread."
- In one of the vignettes, the narrator/central character talked about being resentful that he would always end up being sick after his brothers, because his mom would throw all the kids together in bed whenever one of them got sick so they would all just get it and get over it at the same time... and he was all excited when he got something (mumps?) before they did, and gleefully "munched a heel of bread" at his brothers when he was well first and they were still sick.
- They kept big blocks of ice in the barn buried under sawdust.
- I want to say that a "Fitzpatrick" or "Fitzgerald" or some other sort of F was involved, but whether it was the author's name or the family name, I have no idea.

Anybody have any idea what I'm talking about?

[cliffette]

I always thought the HP series was so hugely popular among adults because of:
1) marketing
2) peer-group pressure that took it from being a popular book into an unstoppable obsession

For its popularity amongst kids, it was because the parents bought the first book due to
1) marketing
and after that the kids were hooked. The books are highly readable after all. Except I can't read them myself.

[Ghreyfain]

Yeah, a lot of it must have to do with word of mouth.  I mean, if I didn't already know I didn't like them, and I heard all the uproar they caused, I'd go check 'em out.  Assuming I was that type of person, which I don't really think I am.  So perhaps my speculation is worthless.

I imagine a factor with the adults is that they're really easy to read.  Few people have enough energy at the end of a working day and taking the kids to ballet and clarinet and football and etc. to read something beyond a magazine or Harry Potter.  Maybe.

[Bex]

Anybody have any idea what I'm talking about?

Yup. The "Great Brain" series of books, by John D. Fitzgerald. Scheming middle brother Tom is the 'brain," but the stories are told from the perspective of youngest brother John. That was another series I really enjoyed.

We could also say that, as a Canadian, it comes naturally for me to enjoy the American and British children's book experience equally. That must be it.

(Edited to correct author's middle initial.)

[jcompton]

Anybody have any idea what I'm talking about?

Yup. The "Great Brain" series of books, by John D. Fitzgerald. Scheming middle brother Tom is the 'brain," but the stories are told from the perspective of youngest brother John. That was another series I really enjoyed.

Thanks!

[Eral]

A lot of the parents I know were delighted that their kids wanted to read, and so encouraged the buying of the books. Some read them to know what the hell their kids were talking about, and some to check that the books were OK in content.
The themes are pretty universal - and as for the sameness of style and characters, well it works for a lot of fantasy writers. Anne McCaffrey, Raymond Feist, David Eddings - they all write page-turner style books with immutable characters and stock action, and have been very successful. People like un-high-brow books.

[Jon]

Still, I don't get why that'd resonate with adults - sure, most everyone would love to get away from authority, but most adults are authority figures to 12-year-olds.

Don't forget that adults were also once 12 year-olds, and had their own childhood dreams and fantasies.
Some hang on to them more than others

And besides, haven't you seen a Robin William's movie? Adults can be fun, too!