Homelessness

[Joe]

This is a thread where we can discuss homelessness. Doesn't matter how, exactly. Debate how to deal with it or your own experiences with it (your own homelessness or others).

Hopefully we won't have people making fun of those unfortunate enough to be missing shelter, food, and clothing.

[icelus]

Oh, crap.

[devSin]

Doesn't matter how, exactly.

Hopefully we won't have people making fun of those unfortunate enough to be missing shelter, food, and clothing.

Apparently, it does matter.

Oh, crap.

Now that you mention it, when I went to college in SF, I got accosted by a homeless guy taking a dump on the sidewalk. You haven't lived until somebody defecating on a public sidewalk asks you for change.

[Joe]

Apparently, it does matter.

Although you attempted to pick apart a meaningless aspect of my post, you still failed. I said it didn't matter exactly, and simply indicated a hope that we wouldn't have people making fun.

Now that you mention it, when I went to college in SF, I got accosted by a homeless guy taking a dump on the sidewalk. You haven't lived until somebody defecating on a public sidewalk asks you for change.

San Francisco is notorious for its homeless population. My friend's sister once experienced a homeless man walk in front of her car while it had stopped at a sign, where he began to piss on the street in front of her.

[Bex]

I'm willing to give Joe the benefit of the doubt, and assume he meant the specifics of ones experiences with homelessness are irrelevant, for the purpose of the discussion.

Homelessness was a micro-trend when I was in the 12th grade, or at least it was within our little punk crowd. Getting kicked out of the house by your mom for refusing to wash the dishes was quite the status badge, though I was never cool enough to count myself among that number. Personally, I don't think it would have taken off quite the same way if it had been January, not June.

Homelessness here isn't really a visible issue, because the winters can be brutal and people can't survive on the street when the temperatures drop. My first trip to Vancouver was something of a heartbreaking revelation.

[Joe]

A few weeks ago my friend and I were approached by a homeless man in the pouring rain. He had to be in his fifties or sixties with long white hair and a similarly colored beard. He was also very dirty.

The sight broke my heart and, naturally, we gave him the change that we had. After leaving the area I was saddened I had not thought to offer the man my beanie.

We went to the same area last night and I saw him again. I asked my friend to turn the car around but he did not. I was quite saddened by this; I wanted to offer more change and my beanie and also learn the man's name and maybe a little about him.

I honestly have no plan on how to deal with homelessness, but it really should be a more important issue for our society. I understand that many homeless people occupy their situations because of their own foolish choices, but we should have mercy on them and help them regardless. There are also those who are mentally ill and homeless because of recent laws refusing them institutionalization.

It is just such a shame. And here I will bitch again at fellow Christians who call themselves conservatives for valuing "capitalism" over helping the weakest among us as our religion has instructed us. Sure, it is fine to value free trade and liberal economic practices, but how can people speak so staunchly in favor of those things first and foremost? Heartless bastards.

[Dark Raven]

I was homeless for a couple of weeks when I was a teenager. Big argument with daddy is what brought that on so I left. Than finally mom talked some sense into me and my dad and I was back home. Begging for food and sleeping in the damn rain isn't fun. That was the first couple of days until a friends parents let me stay at their house. 

[Jon]

Luckily enough for you, you had friends who would take you in.

Though around here it really wasn't too hard. Even before I ended up on the street for a few weeks, I could steal from stores pretty easily, so food wasn't a big problem

Unfortuneatly, I didn't see Where the Heart Is until years afterward, so I didn't even think about sticking around in the Wal Mart near here.
That's actually a pretty good movie.

[Drew]

I think this is one of those issues that needs to be handled by government.  The government should not be depending on private citizens, charities, and church groups to carry the brunt of the load.  We've been doing that already, and it hasn't been enough.  Government needs to increase funding for this because what we've been doing is obviously not working.  Job programs can help a little, but 40% of the homeless are already employed.  Families without children make up 37% of people without homes in the United States.  We need to improve funding for homeless shelters and job placement programs, as well as things like food stamps.  I've heard people call such things "handouts", but the fact remains that a single worker on minimmum wage would need to work 87 hours a week to pay for housing with 30% of his income.  (30% is the federal standard for affordable housing.)  Many people need these "handouts".  Especially single parents.

[Ghreyfain]

A homeless guy that looked like Captain Jack Sparrow was on the train one night when I was heading home from work.  He walked up and down the train asking people for spare smokes.  I was the second last person on the train, and didn't have any, but the very last girl he asked (or could ask) did.  Then he sat down and started talking to her about the magazine she was reading, which was some video game or D&D magazine or something, and he went on about how he had a friend in the states who made him a real sword, from the days when he played D&D.  This was about three years ago.

Just a month ago, I saw him again, as I was driving home this time (guess while I've been going up in the world he's just been chillin').  I was at a stop light, and he was squeegieing people's windshields.  In sub-zero weather.  I tried to wave him off, but he did it anyway.  So I gave the Captain some change, drove around the corner, got out, and scraped off my window.  Fucking pirates.  Can't trust 'em an inch.  He probably spent it on booze and drugs, too.

[Lu]

I think this is one of those issues that needs to be handled by government

  Drew, it took the government almost 20 years to give shelter to one guy, Saddam H. Do you really think them capable of dealing with millions of homeless? Besides, higher taxes isn't exactly what everybody likes

[Drew]

The problem in this instance is that there just isn't enough money.  Since Warren Buffet obviously doesn't want to foot the bill for all the homeless in America, than I would have to say that the onus is on the taxpayer.  Hence, why I stated that government has a moral obligation to take care of this.

[guildmasterron]

I respectfully disagree. The homeless should be helped by private charity and not from money stolen from the citizens. Taxation is an involuntary taking, hence it is theft. The welfare state should be abolished, period.

Help people to help themselves, not to become dependent on the state. Also, if you want to help the homeless, a good friend of mine who used to work with private agencies who assisted them (he died in 2001, otherwise I am sure he would still be doing this) told me to never give to people asking for spare change. Someone at a good corner can clear $30 an hour doing that. There are many good private charities doing excellent work that are worth donating to.

The government (at least in the US) created much of the homeless problem. It is not now, and never shall be, the solution.

[Joe]

Taxation is not theft. Taxes pay for many services (roads, etc) that citizens need. We should all contribute to this.

The problem with simply relying on the private sector to take care of homelessness is that it has simplynot been enough, as Drew said.

[icelus]

Oh, crap.

I reiterate...

[jester]

I once gave a homeless guy some money to fund a project of his. Months later I found him dressed up in a fancy suit and he gave me some explosives and some small energy cells. I knew he had a plan back then and I believed in him.


This tells me two things. I like to talk about games and that there should be much more of it. Games talk and games to talk about.

[guildmasterron]

Again, I respectfully disagree. There is absolutely nothing the government does that cannot be done better, and at less expense, by the private sector. Since taxation is involuntary, I regard it as theft. However, this argument is rather off topic and I will leave it at that.

[guildmasterron]

I once gave a homeless guy some money to fund a project of his. Months later I found him dressed up in a fancy suit and he gave me some explosives and some small energy cells. I knew he had a plan back then and I believed in him.


This tells me two things. I like to talk about games and that there should be much more of it. Games talk and games to talk about.

I agree. Let's talk more about games. So much more fun and definitely less aggravating! 

[Jon]

I agree Guildmasterron; welfare should be abolished (except, perhaps, for the eldery who rightfully earned their living in their more able years).

Also, I agree with Help people to help themselves, not become dependant on the state. It is not the hardworking taxpayer's responsibility to take care of people who slacked through school, drugged themselves out of their minds, etc.
That's not to say that all homeless slacked through school and drugged themselves out of their minds. Work with me, here. That is the job of charities and anyone else who willingly contributes.

[Joe]

Again, I respectfully disagree. There is absolutely nothing the government does that cannot be done better, and at less expense, by the private sector. Since taxation is involuntary, I regard it as theft. However, this argument is rather off topic and I will leave it at that.

I never said that it couldn't be done better. My contention is whether or not it will be done at all.

[Ghreyfain]

Taxation is an involuntary taking...

Are you an anarchist?  I voluntarily pay my taxes, so I would like it if you'd stop stealing the things my taxes paid for, like roads, machine guns, hospitals, schools, and so on and so forth.  Although I'm Canadian, so my roads and rifles are admittedly less fancy than yours, but still.  Theft is theft.

[Drew]

Again, I respectfully disagree. There is absolutely nothing the government does that cannot be done better, and at less expense, by the private sector. Since taxation is involuntary, I regard it as theft. However, this argument is rather off topic and I will leave it at that.

Not even remotely true.  The US military have been steadily increasing the ammount of contractors they hire.  The military, for example, now contracts out it's food service instead of training their own personnel to do the same job.  The costs have gone way up and the quality of food has gone down.  The bottom line is that government is non-profit.  Businesses exist solely to make money.  As the government has been shifting into contracting out more and more of its work (which was originally done by military or civillian personnel on the government payroll) the costs of such things has gone way up.

The private sector is not more efficient than the government.  The problem with leaning on ideological principle to determine how to run things is that ideology tends to ignore reality.    Reality is fluid, but ideology is static.  Hence, the problem with ideology.

[Eral]

Sorry jester and icelus. It might be a good idea if you pop over to Mod Announcements for a minute.

Joe, I am really impressed by your concern and compassion for those less fortunate than yourself, and would like to say don't let the fellas tease you out of your feelings that it is wrong for a government to allow its citizens to go without shelter or food especially when there is more than enough money to assist them.

Guildmasterron and Jon, you are so funny. What an original joke. All poor and disadvantaged people only have themselves to blame for their poverty.*Wak wak wah*
Here's a different idea: while you sit in your comfy little boat you can watch the people in the water drowning or you could throw them a life buoy or rope. You can't pull them all aboard, because the boat might sink, but you have a huge stock of floatation devices and kilometres of rope - so what will you do? Shout, "You should have bought yourself a nice boat! Slacker!"?
An even simpler idea is Hurricane Katrina hits your house. Now you're the person begging on the street. How do you feel about welfare now?

[Jon]

Eral, that isn't what I was saying at all! I even said in my post that that isn't at all what I mean't.

Somewhere I said it's not the taxpayer's responsibility, but if people want to contribute, they're more than welcome to.
I didn't think it was neceary that I add this in but I give money to charities around here three or four times a month. I wasn't saying that we shouldn't help them and that all homeless have themselves to blame! If I did type that, that isn't what I mean't. I apologize. That really isn't at all what I mean't..  Maybe I can find some proof in what I said.

Yeah, yeah. Right here.

Also, I agree with Help people to help themselves, not become dependant on the state. It is not the hardworking taxpayer's responsibility to take care of people who slacked through school, drugged themselves out of their minds, etc.
That's not to say that all homeless slacked through school and drugged themselves out of their minds. Work with me, here. That is the job of charities and anyone else who willingly contributes.

See? I don't know, maybe that wasn't clear enough. Sorry..

Earal, what you said made me feel bad.  Maybe other people would have felt bad too, or maybe I'm way too sensitive.  Whatever..

That isn't what I mean't and I'm sorry you thought it was.

[Jon]

An even simpler idea is Hurricane Katrina hits your house. Now you're the person begging on the street. How do you feel about welfare now?

And I didn't think about that. I'm sorry. You don't have to be so harsh about it.

..Yeah, that proves it. I really am way to sensitive
Sorry.