Author Topic: Nasty world, eh?  (Read 11542 times)

Offline Joe

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2005, 10:50:28 PM »
I thought so. That's why I was so polite.  :-*
Really, Joe, my dove, my coney, it's time to admit that you just don't actually READ any of the posts to which you respond.  ;D

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Offline Loriel

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2005, 04:46:19 AM »
I think anything PETA says has to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially when it produces comic strips for children calling their fathers murderers for fishing.
Don't say something like this if you don't have the decency to provide a link.  PETA does not do this.

A quick google search for "PETA fishing comic" produced this as the top result.  It is indeed a PETA sponsored comic, although you shouldn't trust my word on this - check it out for yourself.  The first thing that catches your eye is the graphic representation of a fisherman gutting several fish (one actually has the guts spilling out).  There is fish blood all over the place.  It actually says "Your daddy kills animals" and "Ask your daddy why he's hooked on killing" and "Until your daddy learns that it's not fun to kill keep your doggies and kitties away from him.  He's so hooked on killing defenseless animals that they could be next!"

I didn't find the word "murderer" anywhere in the comic, but the comic surely implies it.  In addition, it goes one step farther and implants the ridiculous idea in a child's mind that a fisherman is going to kill the family cat or dog next.  This comic is IMHO simply a deplorable scare tactic.

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2005, 05:03:55 AM »
The "your daddy" stuff is satire.  This is obviously not aimed at kids.  (Which is what I was really taking issue with in the first place.)  PETA is in no way interested in telling children that their daddies are murderers.  They are interested in telling daddies that they are murderers.....

I've never seen PETA set up a booth in front of an elementary school.  At any rate PETA does have a web page for kids.  You can find it here.  You'll notice that the comic in question is not on their kids page.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 05:15:06 AM by Drew »
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Offline Loriel

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2005, 06:39:54 AM »
The "your daddy" stuff is satire.  This is obviously not aimed at kids.  (Which is what I was really taking issue with in the first place.)  PETA is in no way interested in telling children that their daddies are murderers.  They are interested in telling daddies that they are murderers.....

I've never seen PETA set up a booth in front of an elementary school.  At any rate PETA does have a web page for kids.  You can find it here.  You'll notice that the comic in question is not on their kids page.

You and I understand that it's satire.  My 7-year-old niece didn't.  Since her daddy is a fisherman, she became afraid that her daddy might hurt her and her hamster.  The fact that the comic doesn't appear on PETA's kid-friendly page doesn't make their actions in this case have any higher morality.  It's still a scare tactic, and it's reprehensible.  I don't expect to change your mind on this issue, Drew.  I understand these are deeply-held personal beliefs for you.  I don't like PETA telling my niece her daddy is going to kill the family pet.

My concern is that the page I linked to actually states that the comic is for kids and kids are pretty good at googling things these days.  The examples below show that children are, in fact, their target audience for this comic.

Examples:
"PETA’s New Comic for Kids: Taking Aim at Dads Who Fish"

"Before they are desensitized to the suffering of animals, PETA aims to help kids see the violent bloody truth behind their fathers’ outdoor pastime."

"Children will read: “Imagine that a man dangles a piece of candy in front of you. ... As you grab the candy, a huge metal hook stabs through your hand and you’re ripped off the ground. You fight to get away, but it doesn’t do any good... That would be an awful trick to play on someone, wouldn’t it?”"

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2005, 07:16:09 AM »
The very idea that it was for kids at all is the satire.  It wasn't made to be shown to kids.  If it were, PETA would post it on their kids page.  As a member of PETA and a father I can assure you that I wouldn't show such a thing to my children.  PETA is not trying to give this to your niece.  If you are letting your seven year old niece google whatever she wants to, she will find far more disturbing things than this comic, (which is not meant for her eyes) so any argument about your niece being able to find this in a google search are invalid.  There are a lot of much more disturbing images available online which can be found in a google search, whether or not you have a content filter.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 07:29:33 AM by Drew »
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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2005, 09:35:33 AM »
The "your daddy" stuff is satire.  This is obviously not aimed at kids.  (Which is what I was really taking issue with in the first place.)  PETA is in no way interested in telling children that their daddies are murderers.  They are interested in telling daddies that they are murderers.....

I've never seen PETA set up a booth in front of an elementary school.  At any rate PETA does have a web page for kids.  You can find it here.  You'll notice that the comic in question is not on their kids page.

You and I understand that it's satire.  My 7-year-old niece didn't.  Since her daddy is a fisherman, she became afraid that her daddy might hurt her and her hamster.  The fact that the comic doesn't appear on PETA's kid-friendly page doesn't make their actions in this case have any higher morality.  It's still a scare tactic, and it's reprehensible.  I don't expect to change your mind on this issue, Drew.  I understand these are deeply-held personal beliefs for you.  I don't like PETA telling my niece her daddy is going to kill the family pet.

My concern is that the page I linked to actually states that the comic is for kids and kids are pretty good at googling things these days.  The examples below show that children are, in fact, their target audience for this comic.

Examples:
"PETA’s New Comic for Kids: Taking Aim at Dads Who Fish"

"Before they are desensitized to the suffering of animals, PETA aims to help kids see the violent bloody truth behind their fathers’ outdoor pastime."

"Children will read: “Imagine that a man dangles a piece of candy in front of you. ... As you grab the candy, a huge metal hook stabs through your hand and you’re ripped off the ground. You fight to get away, but it doesn’t do any good... That would be an awful trick to play on someone, wouldn’t it?”"

Sadly, from the limited experience I've had with PETA, they've favoured scare tactics.
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Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2005, 11:56:02 AM »
Saying meat is dead is not a scare tactic.  Saying that slaughterhouses slaughter over 5% of the animals fully concious is not a scare tactic.  Saying that due to the improper handling of meat by slaughter houses makes the meat more likely to carry things like botulism is not a scare tactic.  These things are merely uncomfortable facts.   Writing a fake kids comic telling kids to keep their animals away from their fisherman daddies is not a scare tactic since said comic is not actually for children.  There are things you could use to label such a tactic, but "scare tactic" is simply not one of them.  The term you are looking for, I think, is "emotional ploy".  PETA does do that.  Then again everyone uses emotional ploys.....
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 11:59:20 AM by Drew »
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2005, 12:12:11 PM »
Don't go pulling a NiGHTMARE on us, Drew.  A scare-tactic-or-possibly-some-other-term is a pretty irritating thing to do.  Especially for people trying to enjoy their view from up on that horse.
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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2005, 12:26:08 PM »

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2005, 12:56:31 PM »
In this case there is a pretty big difference.  It was asserted that this comic was intended for kids as a scare tactic.  It was not intended for children at all.  It was intended for adults, and as such, there is no scare tactic involved because men who fish are unlikely to be afraid of their children hiding the cat from them.  So when you read this comic in the context in which is intended, the only thing remaining is the emotional ploy, which I happily concede that PETA uses all the time.
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Offline Joe

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2005, 02:19:35 PM »
This past Christmas, PETA camped outside holiday performances of The Nutcracker and other shows to force its graphically violent comic book (titled "Your mommy kills animals") into the hands of unsuspecting children. Denver's Rocky Mountain News classified PETA's attempt "to manipulate adults by traumatizing their children" as "despicable." Dr. Jeffrey Dolgan, chief of psychology at Children's Hospital, warned in the Denver Post: "Some vulnerable kids will not do well with this. It is potentially very anxiety-arousing. Someone has made a mistake."

Earlier this year, PETA announced its plan to distribute "Buckets of Blood" to children outside middle schools, high schools, and KFC restaurants. According to the Associated Press, these grotesque toys are filled with "fake blood and bones, a bloodied plastic chicken and a cardboard caricature of a blood-spattered Colonel Sanders holding a butcher knife toward a terrified-looking chicken."

In January, PETA sent a costumed activist into primary schools in England and Ireland to frighten kids into adopting vegetarian diets. According to media accounts, PETA's representative distributed "graphic leaflets detailing animal killings" to young children. The Sentinel newspaper (Staffordshire, England) reported: "PETA has been condemned by the government over the tactics it uses to convince youngsters to give up dairy products and meat."

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm?headline=2537

Hm.

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2005, 02:36:20 PM »
The Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) (formerly called the "Guest Choice Network") is a front group for the restaurant, alcohol and tobacco industries. It runs media campaigns which oppose the efforts of scientists, doctors, health advocates, environmentalists and groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, calling them "the Nanny Culture -- the growing fraternity of food cops, health care enforcers, anti-meat activists, and meddling bureaucrats who 'know what's best for you.' "  It's original funding came from Philip Morris.  They are not a credible source.  Check it out.   http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom
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Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2005, 02:50:22 PM »
To further clarify what PETA is and what it isn't I need to explain one more thing.  PETA does not organise any events.  They are strictly an information distribution center.  That said, there is going to be some misuse of PETA's information.  It is inevitable and unfortunate when it happens.  What you are pointing out are things that activists, who may or may not be connected to PETA, have done.  I doubt all the activists are PETA members, (although most probably were) because a lot of people don't want to pay dues.  You don't have to be a PETA member to distribute their material.  Bottom line....the government has nothing to come after PETA for since all they do is print pamphlets and run a few websites.
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Offline Loriel

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2005, 03:57:12 PM »
The very idea that it was for kids at all is the satire.  It wasn't made to be shown to kids.  If it were, PETA would post it on their kids page.  As a member of PETA and a father I can assure you that I wouldn't show such a thing to my children.  PETA is not trying to give this to your niece.  If you are letting your seven year old niece google whatever she wants to, she will find far more disturbing things than this comic, (which is not meant for her eyes) so any argument about your niece being able to find this in a google search are invalid.  There are a lot of much more disturbing images available online which can be found in a google search, whether or not you have a content filter.

The fact that it wasn't posted on their kid's page does not mean it's not meant for kids.  I don't know if you have the same TV commercials I do, but we have commercials that show the example of Phillip Morris promoting products that are unsuitable for children being aimed at a target audience of children.  PETA is doing the same thing, whether you want to admit it or not.

As for your assertion that we are "letting my niece google anything she wants to", she did a google search for "fishing comic".  She wanted to print off a comic that her daddy would enjoy and found a comic that made her live in fear of her daddy.

Saying meat is dead is not a scare tactic.  Saying that slaughterhouses slaughter over 5% of the animals fully concious is not a scare tactic.  Saying that due to the improper handling of meat by slaughter houses makes the meat more likely to carry things like botulism is not a scare tactic.  These things are merely uncomfortable facts.   Writing a fake kids comic telling kids to keep their animals away from their fisherman daddies is not a scare tactic since said comic is not actually for children.  There are things you could use to label such a tactic, but "scare tactic" is simply not one of them.  The term you are looking for, I think, is "emotional ploy".  PETA does do that.  Then again everyone uses emotional ploys.....

You're right - I wouldn't call the first three you mention scare tactics.  I vehemently disagree with you on the issue of this comic not being meant for children.  That, my friend, is a scare tactic.  You have not provided me with any proof (other than the absence of this comic from PETA's kid website, which I addressed above) that would make me believe otherwise.

In this case there is a pretty big difference.  It was asserted that this comic was intended for kids as a scare tactic.  It was not intended for children at all.  It was intended for adults, and as such, there is no scare tactic involved because men who fish are unlikely to be afraid of their children hiding the cat from them.  So when you read this comic in the context in which is intended, the only thing remaining is the emotional ploy, which I happily concede that PETA uses all the time.

A parent who fishes loves their child no less than the staunchest animal rights activist.  To say that "men who fish are unlikely to be afraid of their children hiding the cat from them" implies that they are so cold-hearted that they would not care that their children are living in fear of their parents.  I find this statement to be abhorent.

Again, I disagree that this comic is not intended for children.  All the promotion I have seen for this comic says it's for children.  It has been handed out to children (not their parents) in several of my local neighborhoods.  This is not the best way to convert people to PETA's cause.  If PETA wants to affect people in a positive manner towards their cause, they should stick to telling the facts, not scare tactics (or even emotional ploys, if you continue to insist that it's not a scare tactic).

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2005, 04:02:16 PM »

A parent who fishes loves their child no less than the staunchest animal rights activist.  To say that "men who fish are unlikely to be afraid of their children hiding the cat from them" implies that they are so cold-hearted that they would not care that their children are living in fear of their parents.  I find this statement to be abhorent.

Again, I disagree that this comic is not intended for children.  All the promotion I have seen for this comic says it's for children.  It has been handed out to children (not their parents) in several of my local neighborhoods.  This is not the best way to convert people to PETA's cause.  If PETA wants to affect people in a positive manner towards their cause, they should stick to telling the facts, not scare tactics (or even emotional ploys, if you continue to insist that it's not a scare tactic).
Not what I meant at all.  Any reasonable human being would find the assertion asanine and would not take it seriously.  Since this is not meant for children (because it is not on the list of items PETA does make for children, which is located on the link which I provided earlier) there really is no scare tactic in use, here.  As far as emotional appeals go.....I'll just chalk that one up to differing opinions.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 04:05:39 PM by Drew »
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Offline Loriel

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2005, 04:05:16 PM »
Drew, I am a reasonable human being.  Perhaps because this is a serious topic and a written medium I missed your meaning.

Edit:
No fair, you edited...oh wait, I'm editing.

I am not so naive to think that only things on PETA's kid-friendly menu are meant for kids.  Phillip Morris actually has other products other than tobacco - Kraft Foods for instance.  Do I think that Mac and Cheese are the only thing Phillip Morris is trying to give to kids?  Of course not.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 04:17:30 PM by Loriel »

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2005, 04:06:49 PM »
So you think your children wouldn't love you if you fished?  As the vegan child of a non-vegan mother with ties to the livestock industry I can assure you that I still love my mother.

EDIT:  and my father fishes regularly.  I still love him, too.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 04:14:43 PM by Drew »
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Offline Loriel

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2005, 04:23:53 PM »
Sorry, I replied while you were editing.  Please read my edit that replies to your edit... ::)

It's not a matter of whether children will love their parents if they fish.  It's a matter of whether there is an organization that preys on the fears of children whose parents fish.  I'm sure you love your parents - most well-adjusted people do.  My issue is with PETA, not you as an individual.  PETA takes extreme measures to get their point across.  That is somewhat understandable, considering their belief that people are committing extreme crimes against nature.  I just think that messing with the psyche of an unsuspecting child in order to change the beliefs of their parents is crossing the line.

EDIT:
I messed up my facts about Phillip Morris and Kraft - Altra is the parent company for both.  I should have asked if Altria is only trying to push Mac and Cheese on kids.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 04:26:25 PM by Loriel »

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2005, 04:40:59 PM »
I don't believe PETA is messing with the psyche's of children.  I don't believe that that comic is meant for children.  It is not hosted on a children's web page, for starters.  I'm sorry your niece found that comic online and was disturbed by it.  These things happen while on the internet.  PETA's official stance is that they do not aim such materials at children.  As a parent, I agree with that stance.  You ask for evidence that it isn't aimed at children.  I'll flip that question on it's head.  Show me evidence that it is.
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Offline Loriel

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2005, 05:04:26 PM »
Drew, I'm sure you're also a reasonable human being.  Please refer to my previous post citing several examples from a website PETA hosts.  PETA may have an "official stance" that this sort of thing is not suitable for children, but that website suggests otherwise.  I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that PETA doesn't produce that specifically for children - the exclusion of this comic from their kid-friendly site doesn't convince me.

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2005, 05:06:54 PM »
My interpretation of it was as satire.  I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this.  If it is satire, then the points I made are correct.  If it isn't satire, then you are.  We'll probably just have to agree to disagree here.
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Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2005, 05:21:22 PM »
I have to confess to one more thing.  (I still don't really think  that this comic was meant for children.)  I agree with every single assertion made in that comic.  I think that fishing is killing. (This can't be argued.  The fish is killed.  If you throw it back it will die, anyway.)  Killing is wrong.  (It's the reason I became a vegetarian 10 years ago.)  It's alright if you disagree, but that's how I feel.  Now regarding hiding the cat.....I think that was a tongue in cheek statement.  I do agree with what they implied, though.  There is no ethical difference between killing an animal we consider food and killing a companion animal.  They are both capable of suffering.  If they would change the cover art, (which I did find abhorrent)I would consent to distributing this to children.  It doesn't say that the children's daddies are murderers.  It just says they are doing something bad (killing fish) and they should stop.  I agree with that, as well.  I just felt the need to make this statement in the interest of complete honesty.
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Offline Loriel

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2005, 05:55:18 PM »
I think you're right - we are destined to disagree on this one.

The cover art is graphic and lends to the "fear your father" message, but that's not my only concern.  I see a very large difference in fishing and killing a companion animal - the feeling of attachment you have for them.  While fishing for food has a definate purpose (regardless of the debatable moraility issue), there is no way that a fisherman is going to come home and slaughter his dog.  Telling a child that he will/could/might is playing with their delicate psychological balance and should not be condoned.

But let's say this comic is aimed at adults only (I still don't believe that).  The comic tells the fisherman that PETA is trying to tell his kids that he is going to kill the family pet.  Any parent I know would try to protect his/her children from any organization that tries to give that kind of (mis)information to their children.  This doesn't sound like an effective way of winning the hearts and minds of the people PETA is targetting.  It might be a way to get a giggle out of the faithful followers of PETA, but I don't see this comic actually doing anything but spreading fear to anyone that doesn't follow their way of thinking.

Offline Drew

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2005, 06:14:58 PM »
An attachment to someone you kill doesn't make the deed any more or less ethical.  Regardless of where you stand on the issue, killing a companion animal is morally equivalent to killing an animal which we deem "food".
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Offline Eral

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Re: Nasty world, eh?
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2005, 06:37:02 PM »
Only if you raise the companion animal for the purpose of eating it. Like some people raise a sheep or pig, and then slaughter it. (I come from a long line of people who keep a pig out in the back yard.) If the purpose of a companion animal is company, affection, entertainment, etc killing and eating my cat would seem wrong to me. Whereas if the purpose of keeping my cat was to eat it later, then it wouldn't seem wrong.   

This obviously only applies to carnivores, who think it is all right to eat animals and use the products obtained from their living and dead bodies. It's a wonder more of us aren't vegetarian, out of squeamishness alone.
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