Author Topic: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans  (Read 13523 times)

Offline Lu

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #125 on: December 25, 2005, 09:08:15 PM »
  No more Devil?! That makes things different, and very much different, sure enough
 

Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #126 on: December 25, 2005, 09:08:51 PM »

There are people who still do the fire and brimstone thing, but not in any of the places I go.
You'll find them in the Southern area of the United States.
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Offline Lu

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #127 on: December 25, 2005, 09:20:43 PM »
  Eral, I've just thought that that you don't go to Church is of little significance, IMO
  Like an opposite example, I sometimes go to Chinatown, to spend some time in a Buddhist temple. I simply feel very quiet and comfortable there, these monks chanting, the smell, people come and go, etc. But I can easily live without it, like I can easily quit smoking e.g. (I smoke very little actually). And no way it makes me a Buddhist, of course

  Blood Raven's never online, but manages to post smth once in a while. How?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2005, 09:23:29 PM by Lu »

Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #128 on: December 25, 2005, 09:34:55 PM »
We are watching over you undetected. We are like Big Brother.  ;)
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Offline Lu

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #129 on: December 25, 2005, 09:44:10 PM »
Quote
We are like Big Brother
  Llike Big Brother, but actually many little sisters instead

  Btw, I am not even actually sure what these Buddhist temples are for. There are benches along the walls, so you may sit there all day long, if you wish. Sometimes I step next to the person in charge (always a woman ? - can't remember if it's ever been male) and she may "Miss, have an orange", or smth sweet, e.g. It definitely happened a few times

 EDIT>  Sorry, but aren't we supposed to be talking Jesus Christ today?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2005, 09:47:56 PM by Lu »

Offline Joe

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #130 on: December 26, 2005, 02:44:29 AM »
I got back from my girlfriend's today (stayed there from the 16th to 25th). Had a great time, of coourse. Ate lots of good food.

Offline Andyr

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #131 on: December 26, 2005, 12:31:06 PM »
  No more Devil?! That makes things different, and very much different, sure enough
 

IIRC most/all non-Catholic branches of Christianity still believe in the existance of a the Devil as a being.
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Offline Lu

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #132 on: December 26, 2005, 12:35:09 PM »
Quote
IIRC most/all non-Catholic branches of Christianity still believe in the existance of a the Devil as a being.
  Then they aren't actually monotheistic, are they?

Offline Andyr

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #133 on: December 26, 2005, 12:43:00 PM »
Hmm, I'm not sure. They still see God (who I will refer to as YHWH to save confusion with the word "God") as the only true god, and creator of the universe. So perhaps the Devil is considered one of the false idols (like Baal and the other gods worshipped in the region at the time), and not a god?

Or perhaps the devil is also a god, as are the false idols, but YHWH is the supreme among them.

... I don't think it really matters. I think it's a semantic problem, not a theological one. For the Bible itself does mention the Devil as an entity, tormenting Jesus when He was in the desert, for example.
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Offline Joe

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #134 on: December 26, 2005, 02:17:27 PM »
Satan is not a god. How silly.

And Catholics do still acknowledge the existence of "the Devil".

Offline Eral

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #135 on: December 26, 2005, 06:07:50 PM »
Joe, perhaps you should check the catechist documents before making any definitive statement. We have a man who doesn't believe in independent thought for the layity as our Cardinal and director of doctrine,  and despite the fact that he is the biggest reactionary in the country, even he doesn't mention the devil. For the last ten years, Catholic schools here have not taught children the devil exists as a being. (the story of the fallen angels is still there, but we just don't dwell on it.) I believe part of it is "the devil made me do it" is a crappy excuse. Let's take responsibility for our actions, people. I can only tell you about my experience. It could be that elsewhere in the world, children are still enjoying contemplating an eternity of burning and torture, but here in Australia the after-life is you are either in God's presence (happy!) or not (sad).

I would like to point out that the story about Jesus in the desert is a STORY - not an eye-witness account of events. It is meant to show Jesus was a prophet in the Jewish tradition. 

I was going to reply, MAYBE, BUT HERE IN AUSTRALIA WE DON'T. GET WITH THE TIMES PEOPLE. I will leave it up to you to decide which one you prefer. The polite, wordy one, or the rude succinct one.
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Offline Lu

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #136 on: December 26, 2005, 06:58:19 PM »
Quote
I believe part of it is "the devil made me do it" is a crappy excuse
  Looks like an educated Catholic and a mindless non-believer-in-nothing (you and me, I mean of course) can understand each other even in a theological discussion

Offline Eral

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #137 on: December 26, 2005, 07:04:03 PM »
That must be because we are able to ask questions and consider what other people contribute to the discussion.  8)
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Offline Joe

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #138 on: December 27, 2005, 01:11:36 PM »
Joe, perhaps you should check the catechist documents before making any definitive statement. We have a man who doesn't believe in independent thought for the layity as our Cardinal and director of doctrine,  and despite the fact that he is the biggest reactionary in the country, even he doesn't mention the devil.

I think Cardinal Pell is awesome. God forbid any of the Church's servants follow its doctrine.

Quote
For the last ten years, Catholic schools here have not taught children the devil exists as a being. (the story of the fallen angels is still there, but we just don't dwell on it.)

Regardless of the apostasy of some Catholics in Australia, Catholics do acknowledge the existence of Satan as a being. I never said every single person who considers himself or herself a Catholic believes it, but many, many Catholics do believe it. Are you not familiar with the Roman Ritual?

Also, the Catechism mentions the devil as a being several times.

Quote
I believe part of it is "the devil made me do it" is a crappy excuse.

Of course that excuse is crap. We are all responsible for our own actions in the end (free will, eh?).

But it's not like we have to believe that the devil is always taking over our minds and making us do wrongs in order to believe he exists in the first place.

Quote
It could be that elsewhere in the world, children are still enjoying contemplating an eternity of burning and torture, but here in Australia the after-life is you are either in God's presence (happy!) or not (sad).

You don't have to believe in a Hell that is fire and pitchforks in order to believe that Satan is real.

Quote
I would like to point out that the story about Jesus in the desert is a STORY - not an eye-witness account of events. It is meant to show Jesus was a prophet in the Jewish tradition.

I'm afraid you deviate drastically from Catholic doctrine on this matter. I am left to wonder why you remain Catholic if you have so many serious disagreements with the Church concerning very important matters.


Offline Borsook

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #139 on: December 27, 2005, 01:20:04 PM »
I'm afraid you deviate drastically from Catholic doctrine on this matter. I am left to wonder why you remain Catholic if you have so many serious disagreements with the Church concerning very important matters.
Don't you? What about "love thy neighbour as thyself" and "let him who is without sin first cast the stone"
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Offline Joe

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #140 on: December 27, 2005, 01:23:22 PM »
Don't you? What about "love thy neighbour as thyself" and "let him who is without sin first cast the stone"

The difference here is that whether or not I am an atrocious sinner, I still hold those things to be truths.

Offline Borsook

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #141 on: December 27, 2005, 01:29:54 PM »
Don't you? What about "love thy neighbour as thyself" and "let him who is without sin first cast the stone"

The difference here is that whether or not I am an atrocious sinner, I still hold those things to be truths.
Like a killer who still believes that killing is a sin and should not be done? And people ask me why I associate catholicism with hypocrisy...
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Offline Drew

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #142 on: December 27, 2005, 01:32:53 PM »
Catholic fundamentalist is an oxymoron, Joe.  If you look at catholic beliefs you will notice that the church does not go strictly from the bible.  They do not consider every story in the bible to be something to take literally.  There are some Priests and Bishops who do, but that is not the majority of the church.  We are both a little young to remember, but, in the not too distant past, (around 50 years ago) it was not uncommon to say things like "I'm catholic.  I don't read the bible."  Ask your Mom, if she's old enough.  She'll tell you.  I'll bring up purgatory as evidence of the church not getting all the ideas from the Bible.  Purgatory isn't biblical.  It came from Aquinas, I believe.  There is a similar concept found in Maccabees, but the doctrine deviates quite a bit from Maccabees.  The church also deviates from the bible on the idea that animals have no souls.  If you look at the old testament you'll notice that God's covenants were with both human and animal.  It implies in other areas as well that animals have souls.  This is something that modern Jews still take for granted, for the most part.  The New Testament stands mute on the issue of whether animals have souls or not.  (Which isn't surprising.  The roots of the church are Jewish and there was no debate amongst Jews about this issue.)The catholic church obviously deviates from this biblical idea, since they flatly state that animals do not have souls.  This belief also stems from Aquinas.  At any rate, here are two examples of the catholic church interpretting the bible in exactly the manner to which Eral referred.  I could bring up other examples, but I'm lazy.
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Offline Joe

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #143 on: December 27, 2005, 01:59:40 PM »
Like a killer who still believes that killing is a sin and should not be done? And people ask me why I associate catholicism with hypocrisy...

It is not hypocrisy. The point I was making is that whether or not I actually struggle to act in accordance with the Bible and the Church's teachings, I still hold them to be true and something to live by. She does not accept many of those things at all, much less try to follow them.

Offline jcompton

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Re: Thankfulness/Holiday Plans
« Reply #144 on: December 27, 2005, 01:59:48 PM »
http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/dir/Religion___Beliefs/
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=nsdap

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