What (if anything) is wrong with homosexuality?

[NiGHTMARE]

Because the two men (or two women) could theoretically be producing more humans themselves.

So how would executing them help? Also, many homosexual couples have children, either via adoption or using a sperm donor/surrogate mother.  So that isn't really an argument against it.

Besides, the human race is reproducing too much already, and if the birthrate continues exponentially, eventually we'll wipe ourselves out by over-population.  In some countries, having more than one child is either illegal or you require a special license (e.g. China), and in a few others couples are offered incentives (land, money, etc) to have few or no children.  It could therefore be argued that those homosexual couples who don't have children are actually making a contribution to the human race, especially if they are doing it of their own free will and without incentive .

BTW Of course there is nothing wrong with homosexuality ask your local catholic bishop. I mean if a bishop does it how can it be wrong?

I really do hope you're being ironic there.  If not, you do realize that statement condones child molestation, right?


EDIT: incidentally, if we follow the very letter of the bible, then apparently incest is perfectly acceptable .  After all, the children of Adam and Eve had no-one else to mate with but each other.

And did you know that "Thou shalt not kill" is actually a mistranslation, and it should actually be "Thou shalt not murder"? A pretty subtle difference, but one which changes the meaning quite considerably.  It makes you wonder how many other words and phrases in the bible are mistranslated from the original source.  There's plenty of evidence of later additions too; I remember hearing that there was an earthquake in Israel something like 1,600 years ago, which sunk a chunk of land into the sea.  Apparently a certain seaside location visited in the Bible is along the "new" stretch of the coast, rather than where the coast actually was at the time.

[Joe]

What about couples who cannot reproduce?

No fault of theirs. No action wqas taken on their part to pervert the beautiful act.

Or homosexual marriages, which I understand, are legal in some places?

A civil "marriage" is just paperwork and tax breaks.

If I dispute the fact that there is a God, or that this is His "intent", where does that leave your argument? ^^;

My argument stays right where it is. If you don't believe in God or the truth of the Bible, then obviously you're not going to accept those things that follow from said beliefs.

I think the basic idea is that if God does not Exist, and/or the Bible is not a Holy Book that speaks of Truth (whatever THAT is), none of your arguments mean anything.

See above.

[Borsook]

A civil "marriage" is just paperwork and tax breaks.

I might as well say: a "church" marriage" is just a pompous ceremony.

[Borsook]

BTW Of course there is nothing wrong with homosexuality ask your local catholic bishop. I mean if a bishop does it how can it be wrong?

I really do hope you're being ironic there.  If not, you do realize that statement condones child molestation, right?

Of course I'm ironic! Hell, this is second time this week this happens to me. Could we have some smiley for irony or something? Though marking ironic sentence as such does destory a bit the purpose.

[melora]

poor Borsook, so misundrstood  (add ironic smiley here )   

personally, i see nothing wrong with either homosexuality or mastrubation, though i am not sure how the two get lumped together .  in fact, i am hoping to be matron of honor at my friends' wedding (2 guys) but i probably wont be since they both have sisters (pout).

[notasophsit]

I think i should clarify something. Making a logical argument is the not the same as making a correct statement.

@moral contemplation is one's moral duty

That is a statement not a proof. If you mean that sexual activity limits your time for contemplation and thus is a sin, you should also put TV, games, books (other than those which directly serve the contemplation), meeting people, travelling, posting on fora unrelated to contemplation etc on your list which is deemed to be very long.

Yes, precisely. There are plenty of things that would count as unethical in the cited moral system, there is no doubt about that. I do not see the contradiction, however; just because the system is rigorous (perhaps almost impossible to live up to) does not mean it is ILLOGICAL. After all Drew wanted was a "moral argument that is logical."

What I did was simply give him an example of a logical argument against homosexuality using a moral system sans religion. The only premise is this: human beings do not have moral knwoledge to begin with. My intention was to point out that an argument can be logical but neccessary true. Just to get this clear: it does not mean that I myself believe in the said argument, or think that homosexuality is an atrocity to human exsitence.

If Drew said he wants a CONVINCING argument or HARD EVIDENCE which can convert everyone against homosexuality, then it would be different story... one which, i believe, i would not be able to produce.

[notsophsit]

Damn, i signed up for membership but i never got the activation email. I hate not having editing option...

My intention was to point out that an argument can be logical but neccessary true.

What i meant to say is: My intetion was to point out that an argument can be logical but not neccessarily true.

[Imrahil]

The 10 Commandments are, by coincidence, the foundation of every single modern judicial system...

Name 3 Commandments that are also laws.

- Imrahil

[icelus]

Or homosexual marriages, which I understand, are legal in some places?

A civil "marriage" is just paperwork and tax breaks.

So those people who go and get married in front of a judge (quite often because they cannot afford a church wedding) are sinners?

From what I know about religion, Christianity is supposed to be about love and living a happy life.  Is it "Christian" to make a homosexual man marry a woman out of guilt and live his life in shame and misery?  

And what about judging others?  Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't that act reserved for God alone?  

[NiGHTMARE]

Imrahil : How about four?

Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day (dunno about other countries, but it certainly applies in the UK, even if the law is much more lax than it once was).

Thou shalt not kill/murder.

Though shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.


EDIT: Heh, according to the Protestant and Hebrew versions of the Old Testament, you aren't allowed to covet anything that belongs to your neighbour.  According to the Catholic version, you can covet anything that belongs to your neighbour except for his wife and goods.

[Pigeon]

So how would executing them help?  Also, many homosexual couples have children, either via adoption or using a sperm donor/surrogate mother.  So that isn't really an argument against it.

Besides, the human race is reproducing too much already, and if the birthrate continues exponentially, eventually we'll wipe ourselves out by over-population.  In some countries, having more than one child is either illegal or you require a special license (e.g. China), and in a few others couples are offered incentives (land, money, etc) to have few or no children.  It could therefore be argued that those homosexual couples who don't have children are actually making a contribution to the human race, especially if they are doing it of their own free will and without incentive .

Thanks for saying what I was thinking. 

[Sorrow]

The 10 Commandments are, by coincidence, the foundation of every single modern judicial system...

No.
Not all commandments are the foundation of every single modern judical system.

Besides that...
They aren't very oryginal.

Last five commandments are about things that make people angry.
-disrespect, murder, stealing, adultery, false statements, and coveting for someone's else's partner/property usually hurt the victim, so if someone commits such act, usually it will be met with hostility/retribution even without commandments from any supernatural entity.
So I think thut laws that forbidden doing such things existed before 10 commandments.

[Drew]

Hopefully this will follow "logically" enough:

Sex is the process through which we create more human beings in the images of ourselves just as God did Adam and Eve. Sex is meant to be carried out by a man and a woman who love each other and are married under God. Homosexuals cannot reproduce children with or marry each other, and will always consist of two people of the same sex.

Sex is intended to be a physical, spiritual, and emotional act, bringing a man and woman closer to one another as well as participating in the wondrous process of creation.

Homosexual acts pervert this concept just as contraception and masturbation do.

Who said that sex is a spirtual and emotional act?  The problem, Joe, is that you are basing a lot of your statement on intangible principles with which a great many people do not agree.  I agree that sex is how we reproduce.  However everything else you stated you have not backed up. 

EDIT: You have a right to your opinion.  But it really isn't your opinion, is it?  It's an opinion you took from a book.....

[Miss Sakaki]

And then there's the fact that sex can be a spiritual and emotional act for homosexual people too.

[notasophist]

EDIT: You have a right to your opinion.  But it really isn't your opinion, is it?  It's an opinion you took from a book.....

It's a fine point. However, I am a little worried that the homosexuality's growing acceptance nowadays is due to (more open homosexuality) social pressure not moral revolution:

A lot of people came to the opinion that homosexual is ok because they took that opinion from other people -- just because there are a lot of people (i.e. your parents, friends, teacher, etc.) say homosexuality is ok doesn't make it so. Not unlike religious preaching, society brainwashes people as well...

[Borsook]

EDIT: You have a right to your opinion.  But it really isn't your opinion, is it?  It's an opinion you took from a book.....

It's a fine point. However, I am a little worried that the homosexuality's growing acceptance nowadays is due to (more open homosexuality) social pressure not moral revolution:

A lot of people came to the opinion that homosexual is ok because they took that opinion from other people -- just because there are a lot of people (i.e. your parents, friends, teacher, etc.) say homosexuality is ok doesn't make it so. Not unlike religious preaching, society brainwashes people as well...

First registered post? Welcome!
From "practical point of view" I assure you many homosexuals don't give a damn why the acceptance is increasing. As long as one doesn't hear in the street "Oi! E's a omo! Get 'im lads!" reasons are not that important.

[notasophist]

So those people who go and get married in front of a judge (quite often because they cannot afford a church wedding) are sinners?

From what I know about religion, Christianity is supposed to be about love and living a happy life.  Is it "Christian" to make a homosexual man marry a woman out of guilt and live his life in shame and misery?  

From what I understand, Christianity is supposed to be about being obediant to God. By doing so, a Chrisitan lives a happy and virtuous life.

And what about judging others?  Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't that act reserved for God alone?  

Yes. But according to the Christians, the Bible is the word of God and it explicitely says (correct me if i'm wrong, i not a bible buff) that homosexuality is bad.

I should state again that I am not a Christian, nor a fan actually. However, I believe it is not illogical for Christians to speak against homosexuality. If you want to makea Christian pro-gay, then you'll have to destroy his/her faith completely.

[jester]

A lot of people came to the opinion that homosexual is ok because they took that opinion from other people -- just because there are a lot of people (i.e. your parents, friends, teacher, etc.) say homosexuality is ok doesn't make it so. Not unlike religious preaching, society brainwashes people as well...

Well, blaming sexual orientation on peer pressure is a whacky idea. Although scientificly unfunded and not endorsed by any religious doctrine I would wager that over time the distribution between homo-and heterosexual oriented people is rougly the same. What varies might be the amount of people who are outspoken about their preferences.

[Eral]

If one has a quick look through the book in question, we will find any references to homosexuality as being "wrong" are in the old bits. I believe Leviticus in particular has some goodies. Since Leviticus also has instructions like "it is OK to keep slaves as long as they are from your neighbouring country" and "don't wear clothes that are made of blends" I constantly wonder why people think their homophobia is supported by God: when it is clearly a reflection of the views of the people 4000 years ago who recorded their laws, history and beliefs. (I am sorry. At no time did God hand anybody the text and say "herein lies the guide to existence for ever.") If we have a quick skip to the New Testament, especially those bits recording stories of Jesus -there isn't any mention of homosexuality, as wrong or otherwise. That was probably because Jesus was allegedly on about forgiving people, not despising others for their differences, and all for outcasts being accepted into society. Yes, yes we all know the one about renunciation of sin. But to accept that we have to agree that sexual congress outside of marriage is a sin. And let's face it, that idea is on it's last legs.

I have a suggestion to help alleged Christians overcome their homophobia: let homosexuals marry and have access to IVF -then they can have sex within marriage and have babies. No more problem for anyone.   

[melora]

this is a bit off topic, but the old testament reference reminded me of a patient i once had.  she wouldnt wear a mganetic bracelet because she said in the old testament it says "humans beings should not have magnets on thier bodies".  did they even have magnets that long ago?  of course, this same woman once told me when she flew over the bermuda triange all her red blood cells got sucked out of her body.  ( and being the evil person that i am, i suspected some of her brain cells went with thme)   
sorry about the typos, its chrismtamast baking time and i made rumballs today, and tasted som too

[Borsook]

did they even have magnets that long ago?

Yap. Did not know much use for them though.

PS. BTW I love the siggy.

[fcm]

I believe this is the general reason why homosexuality is considered wrong:

Lust and inordinate desire are our biggest sins. It's what got Adam and Eve thrown out of Eden. Yes, sex is enjoyable -- and so is masturbation, but sex also serves a purpose. Apparently, you're supposed to have sex for procreation FIRST and then the orgasm is just a bonus. So, if you're not having sex in a way that can lead to procreation (i.e., homosexually) -- then you're having sex for lustful purposes.

In that way, I guess if gays were celebate, then no one could have any problems with them at all.

I don't agree with any of that at all, but that's my understanding of where it comes from. Besides the fact that as a whole, it is regarded as an "unnatural" thing, there is a very heavy burden of "sex is evil and shameful" that has to be overcome. Traditionally, we overcome this by saying things like, "Oh, well I'm doing it to reproduce. You see, God has approved of this and blessed me with children up to my ears blah blah blah." Gays can't justify it away in that way.

Melora:
They did have magnets.

[Borsook]

Lust and inordinate desire are our biggest sins. It's what got Adam and Eve thrown out of Eden.

Really? Care to elaborate on the second sentence? However I look at this (and whichever version, Lilith or no) I can't see that there.

[Imrahil]

Imrahil : How about four?

That'd be nice, but even if you were correct it'd still leave you with over half the Commandments not having corresponding laws.

Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day (dunno about other countries, but it certainly applies in the UK, even if the law is much more lax than it once was).

Really?  There's a law about it?  What does it say?  Perhaps this link would help, because I'm pretty sure watching TV isn't illegal.  Don't worry about it if you ignored that Commandment today, however - today's Sunday & the Sabbath was (more-or-less) yesterday, so they probably won't arrest you.

Thou shalt not kill/murder.

Though shalt not steal.

Agreed on those two.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

The sky is red.  I invented Baldur's Gate.  The Panthers beat the Buccaneers today.  My neighbor is Bill Gates.

Do you think they'll arrest me for those lies?  Please don't turn me in!

If one has a quick look through the book in question, we will find any references to homosexuality as being "wrong" are in the old bits. I believe Leviticus in particular has some goodies. Since Leviticus also has instructions like "it is OK to keep slaves as long as they are from your neighbouring country" and "don't wear clothes that are made of blends" I constantly wonder why people think their homophobia is supported by God: when it is clearly a reflection of the views of the people 4000 years ago who recorded their laws, history and beliefs.

Don't forget tattoos (Lev 19:28).  They're, like, an abomination, or something.

The only people who should be allowed to claim "'cause teh Bible says so" as their source against homosexuality should be those who follow *all* of Leviticus's laws.  No eating pork, shrimp, rabbit ('cause they chew their cud, doncha know), although locusts are ok (because they're part of a small subset of 4-legged insects it's ok to eat).  Plus, anything a woman touches while on her period is unclean & must be purified (you can make up for it by sacrificing 2 turtles or 2 pigeons, I believe).

I just don't see why people get to pick & choose which laws they're going to follow from the Old Testament.  All or nothing, IMO.  

- Imrahil

[notasophist]

Well, blaming sexual orientation on peer pressure is a whacky idea.

It's a rhetorical point. that nowaday, in US, we preach freedom like a religion -- there is the likelyhood that people who were taught that homosexuality is ok may be just as "brainwashed" as those who are taught that homosexuality is a sin.