Author Topic: This really ticked me off!  (Read 13765 times)

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2005, 10:24:21 AM »
Sorry for my poor wording. I enjoy Christopher Hitchens whenever I hear him speak and I never dismiss his statements purely on his pro-war stance. I meant exactly the opposite. This is not some dare I say Jewish Hollywood communist blogger from a radical left wing smear web site who wants to kill Christmas and hates America. This is CH speaking about 'very possible' fraud using these machines. As much as I am appalled by the facts I am delighted that this is not something that simply eludes the other side. Should republicans worry? Definitely yes, because they could be at the receiving end of this 'error' somewhere down the line.

EDIT: Mmmh. Onion. Yummy!! :D ::) I always see fake news as a good source of getting the other side of a story. Go Daily Show.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2005, 11:29:08 AM by jester »
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline NiGHTMARE

  • Idiot
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2005, 11:01:08 AM »
Also, I remember hearing that some of the election machines were manufactured by a company who provide major financial backing to the Republican party...
The Gibberlings Three - home to the BG1 NPC Project, BG2 Tweak Pack, Divine Remix, GemRB, Lands of Intrigue, Song & Silence, and many more!

Offline Joe

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2005, 12:59:12 PM »
I was thinking of ratings that identify content - G,PG, MA, R are the ones we have here- for films and computer games, and making kiddie porn, violent porn etc not readily obtainable. I think it's a sensible form of censorship, as it gives people information and allows them to make a choice.

Ratings aren't censorship, they don't affect actual content. As far as kiddie and violent porn go, those feature acts that without a camera are already illegal.

Quote
Marriage gives a legal identity to partners, allowing them and their children to inherit, and generally enjoy status under law. To deny it to a group of people in the community on the basis of sexual orientation, race or religion is unjust. So is using a public platform to say the sorts of things that minister said. I take it he doesn't have gay friends.

I've never tried to deny marriage to people based on race or religion, but I do believe that marriage ought to be for a man and woman only. I understand that many non-Americans do not guard their free speech as much as we do, but you have to understand that it is very, very important to us that people are not punished for speaking their personal views.

Once you go down that path of censorship, you open up the nation to dangerous possibilities. In time, anything perceived as offensive to those in power could be made illegal, removing the right to even criticize the government.

Quote
I think the un-Christlikeness of his behaviour is an important point -how on earth does he justify this crap?

I don't know how he justifies it. He shouldn't have to. He ought to have the right to say whatever he wants.

Quote
And yes, I do take my source from the Bible, but mostly the New Testament.

As your basis for law? Really? Not even I do that. I never took you for a theocrat.

 
Quote
I don't spend a lot of my time teaching 8 year olds about Sodom and Gommorrah. We have this new focus on forgiveness and love - it's producing healthier adults.

I agree with that focus, but it shouldn't be taught without the rest of the message.

Quote
But I guess we didn't need to have this discussion, because the law got passed, he got dobbed in, charged, found guilty and sentenced. What he did was wrong in the eyes of that community and he suffered the lawful consequence of it.

So once governments make laws we ought to shut up and deal with it? I have never argued that the law does not exist in Sweden, but that it should never have existed in the first place. By my free speech standards, it is an atrocious encroachment.

Offline Eral

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Gender: Female
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2005, 03:02:25 PM »
A theocrat! Watch it! And though I like your twisting of my words - you do it so much more nicely now - I think we can laugh that one off. (But um, don't do it again. I'm only letting you off unscathed this once.)  Respect for others is not a bad basis for law, Joe. That minister can hold whatever views he likes, and mouth them off freely in private. He's just got to be a little more circumspect in public. Because that is his responsibility as a public figure. The Racial Vilification laws were drafted in response to a rise in attacks on Muslim people and buildings in the wake of the World Trade Centre. The point was to say it is not OK to encourage fear and hatred of others, as we had people doing. It doesn't apply to private speech, just public addresses.

Think about the process that minister went through: he was reported to the police, they thought it was a significant enough transgression to charge him, the director of prosecutions had him committed for trial, the magistrate heard the case, and he was found guilty and received a stiff sentence, not a light one. All of the people involved in that process thought that what he had done warranted the consequence he received. (That is of course assuming the Secret Police didn't just leap up from a pew and chuck him in the slammer straight away.) The legal process is long and time-consuming - for a case to go through to sentence requires the backing of a lot of people. I'd say that indicates a fair amount of public support. Obviously people in Sweden think free speech doesn't include the right to publicly abuse others. 
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Drew

  • Kind of a prick
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2005, 10:27:35 PM »
I wasn't going to respond on the issue of Political Correctness but I think I've seen enough mud slinging about that now.  This debate is not helping anyone.  Some political correctness is OK, when the principle is applied to the government and official government activities, for example.  Some of what is done in the name of political corectness isn't.  Freedom of speech is based on having the right to say anything, regardless of how offensive it may be to others.  Controlling speech and the flow of free thought is one of the most important tools tyrants and despots across the world use to control their nations.  I find the idea of villifying a person based on race, credo, gender, lifestyle, penis/bust size, etc. disgusting and inexcusable, but it is important that all people be allowed to express their ideas, even if they are sexist or racist.  No man or woman should be arrested for expressing his or her thoughts and no one should ever be OK with it happening, even if those to whom it is happening have views and ideas which are morally repugnant. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it should be OK for hate groups to assemble and demonstrate in an official government (or government endorsed) capacity, but if they want to meet together in private areas to wallow in each other's collective filth then they should have that right, as long as they aren't actually doing something illegal. (A church, for example, is not an official government entity last time I checked.  Unless our minister was trying to incite his congregation to violence he should have the right to express his disgusting opinions without fear of reprisal.  No one has to listen to him.)   The problem with restricting speech is that someone who has an agenda of his own  is arbitrarily deciding what is and is not OK.  If president Bush had the right to restrict speech........

EDIT: decided that my initial assessment of the quality of this debate may have been, perhaps, overly inflammatory, so I made my language a bit gentler.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2005, 10:36:31 PM by Drew »
Poor baby. Couldn't find a fight anywhere else so you had to come here, huh. -Cybersquirt

Offline Joe

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2005, 10:43:38 PM »
I wasn't going to respond on the issue of Political Correctness but I think I've seen enough mud slinging about that now.  This debate is not helping anyone.  Some political correctness is OK, when the principle is applied to the government and official government activities, for example.  Some of what is done in the name of political corectness isn't.  Freedom of speech is based on having the right to say anything, regardless of how offensive it may be to others.  Controlling speech and the flow of free thought is one of the most important tools tyrants and despots across the world use to control their nations.  I find the idea of villifying a person based on race, credo, gender, lifestyle, penis/bust size, etc. disgusting and inexcusable, but it is important that all people be allowed to express their ideas, even if they are sexist or racist.  No man or woman should be arrested for expressing his or her thoughts and no one should ever be OK with it happening, even if those to whom it is happening have views and ideas which are morally repugnant. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it should be OK for hate groups to assemble and demonstrate in an official government (or government endorsed) capacity, but if they want to meet together in private areas to wallow in each other's collective filth then they should have that right, as long as they aren't actually doing something illegal. (A church, for example, is not an official government entity last time I checked.  Unless our minister was trying to incite his congregation to violence he should have the right to express his disgusting opinions without fear of reprisal.  No one has to listen to him.)   The problem with restricting speech is that someone who has an agenda of his own  is arbitrarily deciding what is and is not OK.  If president Bush had the right to restrict speech........

EDIT: decided that my initial assessment of the quality of this debate may have been, perhaps, overly inflammatory, so I made my language a bit gentler.

*clap*

Offline Eral

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Gender: Female
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2005, 12:25:42 AM »
*First a theocrat, now accusations of mudslinging. I should use more smileys.*
The laws you are talking about are the sedition laws Little Johnny is introducing  - in fact I think they are already here- were now people can be held without charge for incitement to violence and other nebulous things. That's the one where the police bust in during the night and you disappear. The laws I approve of are the ones where you get a fine after due process of the law for infringing the rights of other members of the community. They are different. One protects the government from dissent. The other protects citizens from abuse.

I used to believe in totally free speech, too. When I was young. But then we had Pauline Hanson, and I never ever want to see racism/sexism/homophobia paraded freely, protected by "free speech." My Jewish friends don't mind the RV laws either. But then, they are happy David Irving in is jail in Austria. For expressing his opinion. That is probably connected to the fact their extended families were wiped out in the Holocaust and people tend to be a bit sensitive about things like that.

Edit: Drew, are you going to update the photo of The Boy? Walking now, is he? And fond of hurling himself off the edges of things?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 12:28:27 AM by Eral »
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Drew

  • Kind of a prick
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2005, 03:19:54 PM »
A lot of people have no problem with banning offensive and inflammatory speech.  This is likely because the viewpoints that are being reigned in are so horrid.  The problem, I fear, comes in with the arbitrary nature in which what is and isn't allowable has to be decided.  One needn't look far to find examples of free speech being hindered in areas that those in power don't want the people to be exposed to.  If a particular idea or principle is particularly troublesome to a person or group of people in possession of the authority to squelch it the temptation to use that authority is generally too great for most people.  The line must be drawn somewhere.  Hate speeches aren't going to physically injure anyone, but yelling "fire!" in a movie theatre very well may.  Hate speeches should be cut off when they move away from being hate speeches and towards inciting violence, vandalism, etc.  That becomes something other than a free speech issue, in my mind.  The point I think I'm trying to make is that free discourse simply cannot happen if people are afraid of saying the wrong thing.

On the age issue......the (really) old men (sorry, none of the framers were women) who wrote the US bill of rights were very staunch supporters of (mostly) unhindered free speech.  I don't think age is the deciding factor on one's opinion on the extent of free speech.

Poor baby. Couldn't find a fight anywhere else so you had to come here, huh. -Cybersquirt

Offline NiGHTMARE

  • Idiot
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2005, 03:43:06 PM »
Drew: I think your POV could be summed up as "sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you", right? :)
The Gibberlings Three - home to the BG1 NPC Project, BG2 Tweak Pack, Divine Remix, GemRB, Lands of Intrigue, Song & Silence, and many more!

Offline Eral

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Gender: Female
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2005, 05:22:35 PM »
Oh I don't know, nIgHtMaRe, I think he is saying something a little more intelligent and interesting than that. *looks over the top of her glasses*

Part of the reason I approve of our RV laws is they deal specifically with inflammatory speech, operate in an open judicial process, and no-one goes to jail.
Age has affected my opinion on free speech. Twenty years ago I fully supported free speech, believing it was better to have debate in the open, as the best way of countering hate speeches. I thought allowing speech to be curtailed was just the beginning of the slippery slope. But now I am not certain any more.

Over the years I have seen people come out with stuff that is so stupid and ugly and evil it makes me want to cry, to tell you the truth, and  it is accepted. People who object get called bleeding-heart lefties, PC enforcers,etc and the offenders sit back having their 'rights' protected. And the world just keeps on getting uglier.
Pauline Hanson got voted into Parliament on a rascist platform. The response to this was John Howard decided to attack multi-culturalism, in order to win back the votes from her. And he did.
When I first started teaching, I worked in a school in a very poor neighbourhood, where most of the students were children of Vietnamese refugees. One day I got to school and some members of the National front had decided to paint slogans like "Death to Asians", "Slopes go home" all over the front wall. I will never forget the bewildered, pained expressions of the six and seven year olds who turned to me for an explanation and comfort. It was remarkably like the one on the faces of the Jewish children I taught five years ago, when I was asked to explain anti-semitism.
I see free speech being curtailed every day - by politicians muzzling debate, newspaper editors keeping on the good side of the powerful, television and news programs that focus on entertainment -not information and discussion.
So, I find myself here in the confused centre on the issue - I liked it better when I was sure.

So Drew, you don't want to show us your avatar in his new toddler stage? Come on...
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Sorrow

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 197
  • Gender: Male
  • Grim and Frostbitten
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2005, 05:42:14 PM »
but it is important that all people be allowed to express their ideas, even if they are sexist or racist.

I disagree with you.
People who express racist opinions deserve to be exterminated.
Or at least there should be a law that permits the subject of the racist idea to beat the "person" that is expressing it to death with a rusty clawhammer.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 05:46:03 PM by Sorrow »
Siblinghood
Unity
Peace

One Vision!
One Purpose!

-----------------------------

My DeviantArt gallery

Offline Eral

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Gender: Female
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2005, 05:49:39 PM »
 >:(
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Joe

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2005, 06:25:50 PM »
Oh I don't know, nIgHtMaRe, I think he is saying something a little more intelligent and interesting than that. *looks over the top of her glasses*

Part of the reason I approve of our RV laws is they deal specifically with inflammatory speech, operate in an open judicial process, and no-one goes to jail.

There shouldn't be a punishment at all!

Quote
Over the years I have seen people come out with stuff that is so stupid and ugly and evil it makes me want to cry, to tell you the truth, and  it is accepted.

That is the price of free speech. In my view a tear is better than a fine or a jail sentence.

Quote
People who object get called bleeding-heart lefties, PC enforcers,etc and the offenders sit back having their 'rights' protected. And the world just keeps on getting uglier.

Free speech is a very well regarded right and has been for a very long time. Your side, however, seems to have invented this "right" to not be offended.
 
Quote
Pauline Hanson got voted into Parliament on a rascist platform. The response to this was John Howard decided to attack multi-culturalism, in order to win back the votes from her. And he did.

There is nothing wrong with discussing the drawbacks of multiculturalism.

Quote
When I first started teaching, I worked in a school in a very poor neighbourhood, where most of the students were children of Vietnamese refugees. One day I got to school and some members of the National front had decided to paint slogans like "Death to Asians", "Slopes go home" all over the front wall.

That's not free speech, that's vandalism.

Quote
I see free speech being curtailed every day

So you would wish to do it even more?

Quote
by politicians muzzling debate

How do you mean? If you mean they are ignoring tough questions, that is hardly violating any free speech.

Quote
newspaper editors keeping on the good side of the powerful, television and news programs that focus on entertainment -not information and discussion.

These have nothing to do with respecting free speech. They are problems, yes. But free speech has nothing to do with that.

Quote
So, I find myself here in the confused centre on the issue - I liked it better when I was sure.

Well you're really not. You want people to be punished for speaking their minds pubicly.

Offline Eral

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Gender: Female
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2005, 06:52:08 PM »
How about this Joe? You stop telling what I think, and accusing me of fascism, and I won't be annoyed enough to return to taking the piss out of you every opportunity that arises. I've stated my POV on this, you've stated yours, I've considered your view carefully and you've disparaged mine. Nothing more to be said, really, is there?
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Joe

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2005, 06:58:15 PM »
Your choice, I guess. I don't see what wrong I have done, though.

Offline Eral

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Gender: Female
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2005, 07:21:58 PM »
uh huh.  :) 
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Sorrow

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 197
  • Gender: Male
  • Grim and Frostbitten
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2005, 08:23:44 PM »
@Joe, Drew:
So, vermin filth, you dare to sugest that people can offend me just because of my skin colour and plot against me?
Ignorant subhuman, you don't know, how does it feel, when people think that you are something worser just because you have other skin colour than them.
I think that you should apologize me now, for I will not tolerate anyone who tolerates the existence of my undeserved enemies.

Free speech is a very well regarded right and has been for a very long time. Your side, however, seems to have invented this "right" to not be offended.

OK maggot, now it's personal.
If you dare to stand on one side with my offenders, then you shall get the deserved retribution.
Worthless subhuman filth >:(.
Siblinghood
Unity
Peace

One Vision!
One Purpose!

-----------------------------

My DeviantArt gallery

Offline icelus

  • Global Moderator
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 3173
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2005, 08:28:17 PM »
Oh, my.  A threat!   :o
<Moongaze> Luckily BWL has a very understanding and friendly admin.

Offline Joe

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2005, 08:36:12 PM »
@Joe, Drew:
So, vermin filth, you dare to sugest that people can offend me just because of my skin colour and plot against me?

I said nothing of "plotting" against anyone, you might want to go and read back a bit. But yes, I believe we all have the right to offend anyone we wish with our words.

Quote
Ignorant subhuman, you don't know, how does it feel, when people think that you are something worser just because you have other skin colour than them.

I do know a little about people believing you are "worser" because of skin color, actually.

Offline St. Josephine

  • PPG
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 476
  • Gender: Female
  • The Patron Saint of Mediocrity
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2005, 10:59:31 PM »
Free speech is all well and good but please respect others.
Cailean: An archer NPC for the insatiably nosy!

Despite his heartthrob status in real life, Orlando Bloom has consistently functioned as a node of negative energy onscreen, sucking the life force out of all who surround him. --Dana Stevens, Slate.com

Offline Sorrow

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 197
  • Gender: Male
  • Grim and Frostbitten
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2005, 11:26:29 PM »
But yes, I believe we all have the right to offend anyone we wish with our words.

There's a difference between simply offending someone and racism/sexism.
Siblinghood
Unity
Peace

One Vision!
One Purpose!

-----------------------------

My DeviantArt gallery

Offline Joe

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2005, 11:30:02 PM »

There's a difference between simply offending someone and racism/sexism.

No there isn't. All speech should be protected except for that which directly incites illegal activity.

Offline Sorrow

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 197
  • Gender: Male
  • Grim and Frostbitten
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2005, 12:50:48 AM »
IIRC racism is illegal in my country.
Siblinghood
Unity
Peace

One Vision!
One Purpose!

-----------------------------

My DeviantArt gallery

Offline NiGHTMARE

  • Idiot
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
  • Gender: Male
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2005, 02:13:53 AM »
How about this Joe? You stop telling what I think

Excuse me, but you have told other people what they're thinking at least twice in this thread already (just look four posts above the one I'm quoting), and countless times in various other threads.

It's called "the pot calling the kettle black" (and no, the phrase isn't supposed to have racist connotations).
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 02:16:36 AM by NiGHTMARE »
The Gibberlings Three - home to the BG1 NPC Project, BG2 Tweak Pack, Divine Remix, GemRB, Lands of Intrigue, Song & Silence, and many more!

Notasophist

  • Guest
Re: This really ticked me off!
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2005, 02:15:00 AM »
I love being an American.
I love vigorously defending freedom of speech while vehemently trying to impose my opinions on others.

Freedom of speech: OK
Freedom of ideology: Bad

GO team AMERICA!