TOB, beyond redemption?

[Zyraen]

I like this thread the idea of "Saving" ToB.

BTW, if this is to be done, I think some of the basic premises have to be changed...

1) All Bhaalspawn MUST be dead before the Finale - this omits sparing most of the Five, and Saving Saradush
2) All of the Five MUST be killed in some way or another

One thing I'd like to see in ToB is making use of the Stronghold, or links to it, that you have in SoA to develop your own forces... that would be something really nice and unique to see. Why should they be the only ones with cool hideouts and armies?

[Drew]

I don't know, if she's immune to know aligment etc. but spell that only work on evil beings work on her then I'd say it's fine a clever player should get a reward.

This would require some extensive alteration of the game.  (A far bigger project than most modders are going to be willing to take on.)  Most PC's, whether good or evil, won't be duped by her anymore.  You don't trust the intentions of someone who is confirmed to be evil.  It'd be a lot simpler to state that she, as a fledgling demigodess herself, is immune to alignment detection and alignment based spells. 

[Borsook]

I don't know, if she's immune to know aligment etc. but spell that only work on evil beings work on her then I'd say it's fine a clever player should get a reward.

This would require some extensive alteration of the game.  (A far bigger project than most modders are going to be willing to take on.)  Most PC's, whether good or evil, won't be duped by her anymore.  You don't trust the intentions of someone who is confirmed to be evil.  It'd be a lot simpler to state that she, as a fledgling demigodess herself, is immune to alignment detection and alignment based spells. 

Well of course, you won't be fooled, but most people probably will not cast such a spell on her.

[NiGHTMARE]

I'd say that if someone is trying to dupe many people into thinking she's not evil when she is, and is as powerful and intelligent and Mellisan is, that person would make sure she has either a spell or an item to prevent her alignment from being detected.

[SimDing0™]

I don't know, if she's immune to know aligment etc. but spell that only work on evil beings work on her then I'd say it's fine a clever player should get a reward.

Which would all be well and good if later on in the plot there was any opportunity other than "express surprise".

[Borsook]

I don't know, if she's immune to know aligment etc. but spell that only work on evil beings work on her then I'd say it's fine a clever player should get a reward.

Which would all be well and good if later on in the plot there was any opportunity other than "express surprise".

That is a very good point, indeed.

[Lu]

Plot Twists:
For a start, Mellisan needs some kind of non-detection/alignment concealing item - having her show up on a detect evil scan does kind of give the game away

   Am I missing smth? Mel only appears in cutscenes until the FB, IIRC. So you can't cast detect alignment on her anyway

[Drew]

You can cast it in saradush during the battle that happens right in front of her.  Also, if you cast holy smite, it hurts her (when you have oversight installed) and she behaves as if you attacked her.  This is another way you can find out she is evil.

[SimDing0™]

Somebody should probably mention this to Kish on the Oversight forum.

[jester]

How could somebody conceal their alignment? How does a clerical spell choose whom to target? Melissan should then have to be able to mask her alignment towards the god granting that spell, if I understand clerical spells correctly

[Drew]

How could somebody conceal their alignment? How does a clerical spell choose whom to target? Melissan should then have to be able to mask her alignment towards the god granting that spell, if I understand clerical spells correctly

At the beginning of ToB a great many bhaalspawn have already died, so she is already in possession of a great deal of Bhaal's power.  One may argue that this is one of her "gifts" as a fledgling demigodess.

[Borsook]

At the beginning of ToB a great many bhaalspawn have already died, so she is already in possession of a great deal of Bhaal's power.

Highlander!

[Rabain]

There can be only Mel!

[jester]

I agree that this is a possible angle, but then holy smite would not work on her, correct? For if it is known to a god via the spell, her alignment would be revealed.

@Sim: You are proposing to change her alignment to make her unaffected by holy smite etc?

[notasophist]

Is it plausible for a good character to recognize that Mel is evil in Saradush and still make the plot "work" ? For an example, the pc suspects that Mel is up to no good but saving Saradush still remains the priority .

I think it'd be interesting to implement some sort of dialogue/journal mod for TOB.

[Ulicus]

I'm sorry to ressurrect a thread from December but this sounds like a really good idea: providing it remains true to the Forgotten Realms.  Whilst I could appreciate mods like DotSC from a technical standpoint, I hated how they threw stuff in willy-nilly, and clearly had no idea about the realms... "Link's Master Sword".... bah. So, providing there's a Realms expert (or someone willing to visit the Candlekeep forums frequently to ask questions) on board, I can't see a ToB overhaul going wrong.

Some general thoughts-on-the-matter that I'm going to have to jot down pretty incoherently because I'm knackered:

- Sarevok-be-gone would be excellent. Bringing him back = mistake.

- Imoen disintergrates on death = cool.  Bring back the original vision!

- Changing all references to Bhaal's realm in the "Abyss"(where he wasn't) to "Gehenna"(where he was), would be nice, but perhaps unnecessary, I mean, the ToB novelisation, which is what 'actually' happened, has Bhaal's realm suddenly be in the abyss too, so...

- Cleaning up the Alianna plot-hole would be really appreciated - it's not that I mind her turning out to be a Bhaalist priestess, indeed, I originally assumed that there was going to be some big "I had loved your mother before she turned to evil" thing from Gorion when she first cropped up, but to have her say that she concieved the PC in the Time of Troubles, then tried to sacrifice him as a baby after Bhaal died was a HUGE timeline mistake on the designers part.

- The whole "Bhaal needing rites to be performed by a "trustworthy" priest to ressurect himself" also needs some work, as it stands it seems sloppy. I can't imagine he would be so foolish - it was better when it was just a case of "wait for all the essence to gather" and then *BOOM* instant Bhaalage.  Maybe Amelysan's plot could be to simply hijack that essence and channel it into herself before Bhaal reforms (of his own power) within it, that way Bhaal doesn't look *quite* so idiotic...

Hell, maybe Bhaal could actually succeed in bringing himself back (in a lesser form, since the PC would still have a great deal of his power) and we could all get the showdown we deserved.

- Elminster's entire bit (presuming he doesn't get cut out entirely) has to be changed. I cannot *believe* Bioware had Elminster say crap like "you". He is the Knight(well, wizard) who says "Ye". I've no idea why they gave him that lame new voice actor either when the other one was so cool.

Perfect change would be along the lines of:

Elminster appears:

Eliminster: Ho there wanderer, stay thy course a moment to indulge an old man (with v/o)
PC: That line's getting old.
Elminster: As am I, 'tis good to see thy face again, ye remember.... blah blah ye blah blah ye blah blah ye.... (without v/o)

Urg... I really, really wish that Bioware hadn't bothered making ToB... it's clear that they'd fallen out of love with the Forgotten Realms by that point and were just churning it out for "closure"... it sucked. SoA wasn't as good as everyone said it was (Irenicus didn't really do it for me), but at least Bioware had produced a quality game there that was reasonably faithful to the setting. ToB just messed everything up...

---

Oh one more thing: realistic encounters. I'm sick of *every* mage having 9th level spells. It just DOESN'T HAPPEN! *tries to calm down* Hell, I'd argue that most of the grunts we fight should be at around level 3-6 and giving us no EXP whatsoever... people in the double digit levels are supposed to be RARE... something Bioware seemed to have forgotten. They just took the route of:

"Lets give the Protagonist and his party LOADS OF LEVELS and LOADS OF POWER!"

"Won't that make the game unbalanced?"

"Nah, lets just give everyone else LOADS OF POWER too."

"Can't we just keep things at a more realistic level and make sure the PCs don't get to ridiculous levels...?"

"What? Of course not, that would make sense! People have to feel like they're advancing!"

"But, you only went up about seven or eight levels in BGI... no one complained about slow advancement then..."

"SILENCE!"

Though I can't blame that all on ToB... it started in SoA *shakes head sadly*. BGII should have had us progressing from levels 7/8 to level 13/14. Then BGIII (if only) would have had us go up to like 19/20.

Ok, enough of my rambling. I'll be off.

[Andyr]

I agree with most of the above.

... but I'd move the Throne of Blood back to Gehenna!

[Drew]

- The whole "Bhaal needing rites to be performed by a "trustworthy" priest to ressurect himself" also needs some work, as it stands it seems sloppy. I can't imagine he would be so foolish - it was better when it was just a case of "wait for all the essence to gather" and then *BOOM* instant Bhaalage.  Maybe Amelysan's plot could be to simply hijack that essence and channel it into herself before Bhaal reforms (of his own power) within it, that way Bhaal doesn't look *quite* so idiotic...

A way around this one would probably be that Bhaal put her under some type of Geas.  He just didn't count on her finding a way to break it.....