Author Topic: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures  (Read 21209 times)

Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2005, 08:20:38 AM »
Interesting idea,aigleborgne. Everything that aims to fix bugs, inconsistencies and improve TuTu's ingame AI is what I welcome most in the modding community so you have my full blessing! ;)  I have this feeling this mod of yours would be a permanent install on my TuTu machine!  :pirate Keep it up!

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2005, 01:59:09 PM »
What's new?

I have used my experience table.
For most creatures, it's nearly same exp as before, sometimes less, sometimes more.
For most high level creatures, you will gain far more experience.
But don't get wrong, you will merit that extra experience and need it to fight high level creatures.

I have made some personal modifcations on mage single class:
- some were given a kit
- some were given one more level to better fit their role (andris, queen, cynthandria...)
Note that I have used school opposition for mage kit (according to BG1 manual, P&P is too restrictive)

There are 2 people I haven't fully scripted:
Cadderly, a level 20 cleric.
The first cultist you meet after defeating the demon knight. He is a level 15/15 fighter-mage.
They both talk and leave. So you shouldn't have time to fight them (and I have tried many times)
Maybe I will fully implement them when all other work will be done.

Tremble, because there are some level 15 cultist mages that were intially programmed as low level mage.
This could be a problem if we have to fight more than one at a time. I will check scripts.

Because my scripts don't cheat, you can sometimes kill them before they cast their protection for magic weapons. (1 second cast, but can be interrupted)
I must admit I have problem with that spell, either It fires when not necessary, either the mage get interrupted (I have tried many things, none work). If someone have a good script check for spell "protection from magical weapons", it would be great :)

About creatures, I  am late and still need few weeks to finish. I am on letter D (it takes a long time to check everything). But now that scripts are on a final stage, things are far quicker.

Concerning the tanari:
Don't you think his death gaze is overpowered? Definitly loose a party member is a hard thing (and a good party is needed, especially is this mod, no more solo :)
What about making another 2nd effect  : paralyze + ???
Because without 2 or 3 archers with arrows of dispelling, or using the best potions all party member, it's almost impossible to win without loosing one or two persons.

A last question:
The cultists in tanari room have no scripts. what about giving them script. they are level 8 fighters, it could make the battle very very hard

what do you think about all that ?  :D
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 02:31:44 PM by aigleborgne »

Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2005, 02:25:30 PM »
Great! Just keep it up!  ;)

Offline Andyr

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2005, 06:57:40 PM »
I think the cultists with the Tanar'ri are meant to be concentrating on the ritual to keep the fiend alive if killed. And it's tough enough without adding 8 or so more Fighters. ;)

Maybe as an optional component, if you WeiDU it?
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Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2005, 11:24:40 PM »
I agree with Andyr and wouldn't even bother to make them harder as optional... ;)

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2005, 02:16:22 PM »
Project status: slowed

I have worked so hard on this project that I am quite tired these days (I was working about 8hours a day)

Letter A to C are done. So only 3 over 26...

During my tests, I have concluded that some creatures were too strong.
For example, you will encounter a level 15 cultist fighter/mage, with some archers fighter assassins lvl 8.
In BG, the F/M was script so badly nobody care about him, maybe for balance issues.
Now he is a real killer!

I decided to give party the same chance as NPC mage : now, Sorcerous Sundries sell BG2 spells level 3-5 (melf meteor, stonekin, ...)
He have a limited stock of 4-5 to prevent abuse of scrolls during fights.

I have to say it again : if you keep bg1 experience cap, you have practically no chance to beat the game.
My party is usually lvl 8-11 end game (11 for mage)

Purpose of this is to bring a challenge to experienced players.


Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2005, 03:49:21 PM »
I will challenge your scripts keeping the experience cap!  ;) Just try and find new enthusiasm for your project is absolutely interesting! I would also beg you to keep the modified creatures legale as I has always hated cheating (both from the computer's and the player's side)...  ;)

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2005, 04:59:28 PM »
I will challenge your scripts keeping the experience cap!  ;) Just try and find new enthusiasm for your project is absolutely interesting! I would also beg you to keep the modified creatures legale as I has always hated cheating (both from the computer's and the player's side)...  ;)

As I said, this is my top priority.
No cheats, at all.

Just some "cheats":
- mages use protections spells (protection for fire, cold, ...) automatically, depending of their level. because they have very long duration (x hours)
- same things for armor spell
- they get their contigency & sequencer back after one sleep (if applicable) instead of 2 sleeps (because they should need to rememorize cont. and seq spell)
- they get fully heal after one sleep

These are not overpowered things, considering my mages would cast those spells before going anywhere too.
About the sleep, it prevents some cheesy tactics. (like attacking a powerful enemy, heavily damage him but lost half party and need to flee out of battle. go to a temple, rez, heal, sleep, then go back to fight : easy victory because enemy is still damaged from last battle)

Mages get no forcespell except contigency & sequencer.
Fighter get right proef, thac0, armor, ...

Everything follow the rules.

And no, you can't win with xp cap except by using cheesy tactics (like mass summoning...)

You should understand that with good scripts, enemies can be more than twice as powerful as before.
Remember that the game was balanced with bg xp cap.


Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2005, 11:48:45 PM »
Well, the game can become much more difficult with good script and I am happy about it but I won't remove the experience cap anyway  ;) and will try and challenge the improved creatures by being smarter. And anwyay I usually reach - if I remember well - the XP cap at 3/4 ahead in the game. Even if I did intend to remove the XP cap, I would still play most of the game at "legal" experience levels thus meaning I am facing your improved creatures without being of any level higher than normal gaming for a big part of the game.

I am very happy to see that you keep your creatures legal!  ;) But as Echon had mentioned in another thread, BG developers has often cheated with their creatures by making them more powerful than they should really be.

If you like, I can send you a file where I modified Nimbul which had wrong AC, wrong Thac0, wrong spells, wrong saving throws. I didn't make him weaker because now he has 4/3/2/1 spells while before he had 6/2 (only first and second level spells) but I did correct his real Thac0 and AC and gave him legal missile weapons (he is a Mage Thief and used throwing axes which is not possible, now he uses Darts+1).

If you like, I can send it to you and you will tell me if you like my modifications. After all, you didn't reach letter "N" yet...  ;)

Keep it up!

P.S. By the way, I don't like much a big part of the content of Tactics just because there are often two main faults: (1) enemies are on steroids and cheat as hell and (2) many encounters are totally frustrating. I like when creatures act more intelligently not when they are overpowered. So...Tactics "betrays" often the meaning of its own name...  8)

 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 03:54:48 AM by Salk »

Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2005, 02:17:29 AM »
I thoguht Nimbul was supposed to be a bard?
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Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2005, 02:37:41 AM »
Nimbul is not a Bard but a Thief/Mage 7/7 (since he is human he must be a dual class) and his stats were all screwed up. If I had better knowledge of NI I'd use it to correct all those creatures that are not legal and, according to Echon, they are really many.

Creatures that don't cheat but still provide a challenge (and stronger even) using smarter scripts would be a real boost for the quality of the game. We will see if aigleborgne can succeed with this!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 04:14:24 AM by Salk »

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2005, 02:44:00 AM »
First, about tactics, some components are overpowered but it's the only mod that does improve AI, doesn't it?
without tactics, I can finish BG2 while sleeping otherwise ;)

The main cheat of tactics is that mages use a lot of prep spells, more than they should. It makes them nearly invicible until you cast come breach, and even, they still  have their contigencies & sequencer!

About Nimbul, I know what you are talking about :)
Most humanoids should have a base AC of 10.
Thac0 is often wrong
Saving throws are often too low (or too high sometimes)
Mage usually have far more low level spells and no (or too few) high level ones.
Proeficiencies are often wrong (most lvl 6-8 fighter tend to have 5 stars in something)

Some enemy have special resistances, like this mage/thief near xvart's village, having 100% magic resistances.
In thoses cases, I left them.
But many others had resistances that I removed (like Andris, 90% fire resist., anyway, he doesn't need it)

You can send your file at my mail : aigleborgne@yahoo.fr

Actually, I am wondering about creatures behaviour:
when a creature attack, should it go first for helpless players (held, confused, stunned, panic,..) or other ones?
it's easier to attack a helpless player (since he is usually easier to hit in some case: blind, sleep, held) but in other case it's a mistake

Suppose you have a mage and a fighter in your party
you encounter a fighter/mage that will manage to hold your mage
now, he tries to kill the mage first, but by that time, fighter could either kill him, either consum all his defense (stoneskin for example)
on another point, if the fighter have a really low AC, he could waste his time trying to hit him with weapon
on a last point, the player mage could have stonekin/mirror/... and be very hard to hit also

If some have suggestions about priorities in targetting people to fight (for spells, i'm happy with my system even if it could be improved)

we can't make operation like thac0 of attacker - AC of defender ...

Offline Echon

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2005, 03:12:43 AM »
Some enemy have special resistances, like this mage/thief near xvart's village, having 100% magic resistances.
In thoses cases, I left them.

Why?

-Echon

Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2005, 04:28:23 AM »
My opinion is that we might even let Intelligence play a role in this. More intelligent characters might understand that the best tactic in a fight is always to incapacitate the enemy and cut first the most potential danger. It's pretty obvious that casting opponents are usually less strong in melee defence therefor they should be the first to be attacked and that they can become extremely dangerous if they have time to cast their magic... :P

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2005, 05:21:54 AM »
Some enemy have special resistances, like this mage/thief near xvart's village, having 100% magic resistances.
In thoses cases, I left them.

Why?

-Echon

Well, I think Bioware gave them some magical resistance for a reason, didn't they?
But I can remove everything non-legal, maybe I will

About AI depending on Intelligence.
Well, no. It would imply many different scripts and complications.

My improve scripts are set to NPC only, not monsters (or at least, low int. one)

For example, most monsters (gibb, gobelins, animals, ...) get their old scripts.
Most powerful one (doom guard, squel warrior, ...) get new scripts. But this can be changed if you think it should only based on int.

All humans/elves/dwarfs/... get new scripts, even low int. ones. Because I think even a stupid fighter know that he should attack a mage before a fighter...



Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2005, 07:34:44 AM »
I'd say good battle tactics would be more reliant on wisdom than intelligence - judgement, common sense and intuition would be more important than memory and reasoning (though obviously these would still be neccessary).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 07:36:36 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Echon

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2005, 08:11:52 AM »
Well, I think Bioware gave them some magical resistance for a reason, didn't they?

Maybe, but there is no apparent reason why. I do not think it is fair that NPCs similar to the PCs revieve abilities that the PCs cannot get.

Quote
All humans/elves/dwarfs/... get new scripts, even low int. ones. Because I think even a stupid fighter know that he should attack a mage before a fighter...

Do not overdo this. A mage is not necessarily more dangerous than a fighter. Levels, ability scores and equipment should also be considered.

-Echon

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2005, 08:41:08 AM »
Quote
Do not overdo this. A mage is not necessarily more dangerous than a fighter. Levels, ability scores and equipment should also be considered.

-Echon

Yes you are right but you know how limitated are scripts.
Checking equipment and level would be REALLY tedious.

Basically, a mage is usually more dangerous than a fighter and easily killed.
That's not true in BG1, where fighters are usually stronger than mages.
But still, mages die quickly.

Well, I need to look at this. Anyway, I can't make all these checks you suggest.
If someone want to do it for me, he is welcome ;)

Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2005, 08:51:06 AM »
I agree with aigleborgne here. A mage to be effective needs to have some muscles in front to fight for him. If given enough time, he can be devastating but we all know that usually mages die faster, especially at lower levels and this is the case for Baldur's Gate. This is why they usually stay in the back...Mages should therefor be the first targets of attacking enemies. This is my two cents... ;)

Offline underdog

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2005, 09:20:10 AM »
in order to determing how dangerous a mage you would also have to know what level he is, when you meet a party you don't automatically know the mage is a L1-2 or L9-10, so you can't always determine how dangerous he really is.

If I get a disabling spell off, like hold I leave that one alone, he's not a threat anymore, and go after the ones that aren't held, they are the danger now, once yo finish off the non-held ones you can go pick that one off at you lesiure.
even if the hold wears off there's still ( or should be) fewer opponents to deal with so they sohould stat going down faster.
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Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2005, 02:50:12 AM »
I tried to fix the Nimbul.cre (using NI) and I've sent it to Aigleborgne to get a brain. Since it's the first time I do such a thing and I can't at the moment verify it myself, I'd be grateful if somebody might test it and tell me if the changes are effective (theoretically they should). Here is what has been changed:

* Completely legal character on the base of AD&D 2nd Ed. rules
  -Thac0 corrected
  -AC corrected
  -Saving Throws corrected
  -Rogue abilities corrected
  -Given correct Lore Bonus
  -Weapon proficiences corrected
  -Changed race to Half-Elf (because he is a multiclass M/T)

* Added some undroppable and unstealable items for balancing purpouses and consistency:
  -Potion of Power
  -Elixir of Health
  -Bracers AC7
  -Darts+1 replaces the wrong Throwing Axes

* Corrected memorizable spells and added new ones
  *Web
  *Monster Summoning I
  *Improved Invisibility

If this is successfull we'd just have only 486 more to go... ;D

Offline Sorrow

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2005, 09:42:19 AM »
* Added some undroppable and unstealable items for balancing purpouses and consistency:
  -Potion of Power
  -Elixir of Health
  -Bracers AC7
  -Darts+1 replaces the wrong Throwing Axes

I don't like undroppable items.
I think that it would more fair towards players if they could collect equipment that is used against them.
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Offline jester

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2005, 11:35:39 AM »
Yes, increase their levels and their AI, but anything wielded by your foe should be in the loot afterwards. Anything else is just lame.
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Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2005, 01:59:53 PM »
Yes, increase their levels and their AI, but anything wielded by your foe should be in the loot afterwards. Anything else is just lame.

Ok, I will work on that point.

This week-end, I'm working again on mage script.
I'm making a whole new script (based on my old one).

What's new:
- baf script with comments, so I can share it with community (if somes want to improve it)   (done)
- prep spells will be based on memorized spells. I make this so mages won't cheat at all (done)
- many tweaks to make things clearer, faster, and just better scripting (done)
- targetting system will be completely rework. I will do a very good thing : for each spell, mage will look the 6 nearest enemies and cast his spells at the best target
Previously, it was for group of spells, but it was bad.
- shouts

Example:
Priority target : mage, others (that are not affected by disabling spells : chaos, stun, hold, ...)
mage will disable 3 people.

2 char left:
- sorcerer with 40hp
- fighter with 18hp (he had more, but have been injured during the fight)

script will now determine that this sorcerer is the guy to attack and will cast spells on him.
but suppose he has a power sleep spell, it could be cast on fighter but it will never happen unless the sorcerer is dead, disable, or away.
If I write a targetting system for each spells, mages will react perfectly but... it need more work, and can possibly slow down computers.

When my new scripts will be done, I will post a new version of my mod.

Offline Salk

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Re: Baldur's Gate Tutu : Improved Creatures
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2005, 02:18:20 PM »
I have a reason why I make extra new items undroppable and unstealable: game balance.

I make it legal but I don't want it to be a joke that's why I need to give him Bracers AC+7 to compensate his new legal AC of 10 otherwise he would be too easily vulnerable. But at the same time the party are NOT supposed to get such items THEN in the game. It would be more realistic to have it drop the items that he uses against the party, I concurr but game balance comes absolutely first. This is why my creatures won't drop any extra added item and I hope aigleborgne agrees with me...

I also agree with Jester suggesting to increase the AI but I don't agree about increasing their level as often the levels are high enough to be potentially devastating. It's just that the creatures are not often so smart and mostly can't use the power fully.

Such items are not supposed to fall in the hands of the player at that time. But the improved creature needs to have often better equipment to be rebalansed compared to the cheating one.



If somebody wants to try my version of Nimbul can leave me a PM...

« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 02:21:48 PM by Salk »

 

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