Author Topic: Madam President  (Read 29065 times)

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2005, 09:46:25 AM »
Perhaps, but I doubt that any of those biologists are asserting that any race is less intelligent, as a whole, than any other.
Well, intelligence is acquiring and applying knowledge, and there are many other aspects of mental ability than just those.  Even if members one race were generally less skilled at learning than another, they could more than make up for it with some other mental talent(s), such as imagination, concentration, perception, etc.  After all, it is generally acknowledge that women are better suited to certain mental tasks than men, and visa versa, so there's no reason the same couldn't apply to race.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 09:49:33 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Alarielle

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2005, 09:51:13 AM »
I'm not arguing with you.  If you want a fight, have it with someone else.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2005, 09:51:56 AM »
I'm not arguing with you either, where'd you get that idea? A discussion (even a heated one) and an argument are two different things :).

As I said, it's not racist/sexist/whatever-ist to point out that differences (could) exist, it's only so if you believe differences make one type of person "better" than another/others - and I certainly don't believe such a thing.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 10:01:57 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Alarielle

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2005, 10:18:23 AM »
I'm not saying it's racist to acknowledge differences, nor that differences do not occur.  I am simply saying that it is racist to say that these differences matter when it comes to politics (i.e. you shouldn't discount a candidate because you think people of that race may or may not have a certain characteristic).  Individual differences should matter, not racial ones.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2005, 10:23:33 AM »
Understood :).  I can see one potential thing that does matter in regards to politics, in that candidates will most likely show prefferential treatment to their own race (be it consciously or sub-consciously).  I mean, if/when America finally does get a black President, no matter who he/she is I strongly suspect that President will try to improve things for black Americans.  Obviously that wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's still something to consider.
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Offline jester

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2005, 10:43:42 AM »
One thing you said, though, has me asking a question:  what is the "glass ceiling" for women I keep hearing about?  I understand the concept, but I have yet to hear if there is an amount of money that women are supposedly unable to earn.

...... In the 70s, Women earned 59 cents on average for every dollar a man earned performing the same work. As of 2003, this average has increased to 76 cents for every dollar.

So the average man now earns less?? :P

Elections around the world have yet to surprise me. There is no reason why a women should not be president of anything. That is why there will never be one. The old chaps would not allow it.
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Re: Madam President
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2005, 11:07:54 AM »

Why are you even bringing this up?  It has absolutely no relevance in any political discussion.

Because he's trolling? Why else would he just toss out crap like "women should do women's work, but I won't give any reasons or anything, I'll just say my mother told me" unless he was trying to start shit? Or is he just really, really young, like eight or something.

Offline fcm

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2005, 11:15:11 AM »
Regardless of that, the fact still stands that women make less than men in the professional fields. And Eral put it marvelously that when women act like men, they're considered overly aggressive -- but if they're not "masculine" and "aggressive," they never get anywhere. But . . . Yeah, something seriously makes me doubt that we're going to find any common ground.

Men who "act like men" are considered overly aggressive too, so it isn't a valid argument.

No they aren't. They're lauded as good businessmen. Men who "act like men" act normal. According to your logic, all men are seen as assholes in the workplace, and they're not.


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Offline glain

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2005, 11:26:06 AM »
omg. you never said you got divorced! You should've stolen Ghrey at NotCon clearly. After all, can't go wrong with a pirate. Well. aside from their insatiable hunger for booty.

Who says I didn't try? ;)  ;) ;) 

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While that's not the reason for my divorce, I agree that people must do what they need to do. There is a big difference between women who want to work as opposed to women who have to work.
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Offline jester

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2005, 11:27:00 AM »
There is no excuse for stealing fcm's thunder. This means war.



*thundering drums in the surrounding hills*
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Offline fcm

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2005, 11:49:35 AM »
There is no excuse for stealing fcm's thunder. This means war.



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WARRRRR!
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Offline Regullus

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2005, 12:01:34 PM »
 
I can see one potential thing that does matter in regards to politics, in that candidates will most likely show prefferential treatment to their own race (be it consciously or sub-consciously). I mean, if/when America finally does get a black President, no matter who he/she is I strongly suspect that President will try to improve things for black Americans. Obviously that wouldn't be a bad thing, but it's still something to consider.

 Empirical evidence would suggest that would not necessarily happen. There are plenty of (insert color, race, gender or various economic/social backgrounds) who have showed no preferential treatment to their origins except in a pragmatic sense. For example, "My father was a mill worker, my grandfather was a mill worker, I hear your pain, vote for me." (Add lousy southern drawl).

 Needless to add but I will, people play to interest groups in order to garner votes and have no real intention of fulfilling campaign promises.

 On a personal note, when I was a pregnant I hoped I would have girl. The reason I wished for a girl was not because I wanted a doll, nor did I envision a size 0 mannequin, or did I even think that she would have five days off every month because of 'female' problems', I wanted a girl because in the 21st century, in the US, I thought she had unlimited possibility to be whoever or whatever she wished to become. I thought a girl would have greater flexibility of choice than would be available to a boy. Simply, we, as a society, deliver more conflicting messages on what is a MAN or what is manly, then what is a woman or womanly.

   But then I read this thread and now I realize that Lily will be faced with some misconceptions and will face prejudice on her path in life and I must try to instill in her the sense of infinite possibility.

 Thanks for the lesson.

 

Offline Joe

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2005, 12:41:00 PM »
Just as long as none of you vote for Senator Clinton.

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2005, 01:31:44 PM »
@Eral: I apologize, if I offended you. It's just my mother keeps saying some periods can even cause woman to kill. All this, "There's no difference between black and white people, man and woman" is bullshit, to put it bluntly. I mean, I'm not saying that we should go around discriminating blacks if you're white, or whites if you are black. Or men/woman woman/men. There are racial differences! This doesn't mean hatred!

Sorry, that's all. Call me a rascit bastard, I don't give a damn.
So, because the extremes of a race/gender type are different, all members of race/gender have the same strengths and weaknesses? I'm not going to believe that. I know women who are both smarter and dumber than me, So what conclusions can I draw from there. Also, re Glass ceiling, where are the Female CEOs of the larger Corporations? The females on the board of said Corporations? What's that you say? There aren't any? Hmm, looks like women can't earn as much as men quite yet.

At the extremes, there MAY be differences between race/gender a and b. But for every day life, you can assume they're equally skilled. kthxbai.
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2005, 02:15:49 PM »
Regardless of that, the fact still stands that women make less than men in the professional fields. And Eral put it marvelously that when women act like men, they're considered overly aggressive -- but if they're not "masculine" and "aggressive," they never get anywhere. But . . . Yeah, something seriously makes me doubt that we're going to find any common ground.

Men who "act like men" are considered overly aggressive too, so it isn't a valid argument.

No they aren't. They're lauded as good businessmen. Men who "act like men" act normal. According to your logic, all men are seen as assholes in the workplace, and they're not.

That would depend on what "acting like men" means and who the observer is.
They are thought to be overly aggresive, then it meanst that group of men that they are acting like is overly agressive and that persons who aren't overly aggressive perceive them as overly agressive too.
This suggests that all men who "act like men" are overly aggressive and all men who aren't overly aggressive aren't acting like men.
Statement that someone "acts like men" is sexist in itself.
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Offline Eral

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2005, 04:20:01 PM »
Whenever someone wants to criticise a woman, they invariably insert a gender-based slur into their criticism. This is so the woman is damned any way she behaves.
Behaviour in a man which is "authoritative" is described by those wishing to criticise the woman as bitchy, aggressive, domineering. Characteristics in a man for which he is admired, are not admired in a woman - by those wishing to keep the woman out of their territory, or make them be quiet. I believe we had a little example of this on this very forum, a few days ago!
Please let's not have a line of argument suggesting that women are biased against men, and men are now suffering awfully at the hands of nasty women who have taken control of the world. As to the suggestion that women are taking over the world, and earning more than men - I WISH!! Damn, that'd be great! No more having to fight the same battles over and over again, no more having to put up with slurs based on my gender, end of the abortion debate! Bring it on!

Jester is right, the old boys won't let a woman in the door. And any woman who wants to go in the door has to be very, very tough and prepared to put up with a lot of personal attacks - about her looks, her clothes, her manner, as well as her decision-making. If Hillary does make it to the White House - and I hope lots of people will vote for her just to annoy the Republicans- it won't be a landmark for women rights. It will be a personal victory for her.
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Offline fcm

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2005, 05:05:32 PM »
Statement that someone "acts like men" is sexist in itself.

So, you're saying that men don't act in a certain way -- that there aren't gender constructions in our society? Be reasonable, for the love of God! And don't assume that just because you put a name to a difference that people percieve (whether it's true or not) instead of ignoring it that it's suddenly an "ism." If you had read the post correctly, you'd realize that I was not condoning the pidgenholing of feminity/mascuinity, but citing a popular perception of what it is.
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Offline Aurora

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2005, 05:52:16 PM »
Jester is right, the old boys won't let a woman in the door. And any woman who wants to go in the door has to be very, very tough and prepared to put up with a lot of personal attacks - about her looks, her clothes, her manner, as well as her decision-making. If Hillary does make it to the White House - and I hope lots of people will vote for her just to annoy the Republicans- it won't be a landmark for women rights. It will be a personal victory for her.


The first female president:

She'll have to be tough and aggressive enough that the country can trust her with its safety, but gentle and soft-spoken and well-mannered so that she doesn't intimidate any men.

She'll have to be unattractive enough that nobody claims she got in just for being hot, but attractive enough so that no men are forced to watch an unattractive woman on television when she gives speeches.

She'll have to have an exceptional career and be more politically qualified than any potential male canditate, but she'll also have to be married and have a family and have spent her time raising her children so that we know she's a good mother and not a dyke or anything.


Yeah, I dunno about the chances of that.


but re: personal victory, the way the country will be changed with our first female... or non-white... or non-straight, or non-Christian... president will not only be significant as a personal victory for them. In a country where over 20% of people say they wouldn't vote for a female president simply because of her sex, a female president would indicate that we are, in fact, slowly maturing beyond sexism. Even a particular female president with the exact same politics and beliefs as a particular male president would not only indicate an impressive shift in our society, but set us up for future shifts.

Why? It'll make it possible for any little girls to dream of being president, instead of them knowing the idea of a female president only as a stupid joke. It'll make the idea of a female president a reality, instead of silly fiction on the Sci-Fi channel or ABC.

And the Thatcher joke has already been made in this thread, so I will stop here.
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Offline Sorrow

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2005, 06:03:57 PM »
Statement that someone "acts like men" is sexist in itself.

So, you're saying that men don't act in a certain way -- that there aren't gender constructions in our society? Be reasonable, for the love of God! And don't assume that just because you put a name to a difference that people percieve (whether it's true or not) instead of ignoring it that it's suddenly an "ism." If you had read the post correctly, you'd realize that I was not condoning the pidgenholing of feminity/mascuinity, but citing a popular perception of what it is.

Popular perception is irrevealant.
I'm not interested in what cattle thinks.
This popular perception is sexism.
I don't care for gender constructions, despite the fact that embracing them makes finding a partner and friends easier.
I'm not going to tolerate someones stupidity and inferiority just because gender constructions tell them to be stupid and inferior.

Whenever someone wants to criticise a woman, they invariably insert a gender-based slur into their criticism. This is so the woman is damned any way she behaves.

I would say that biased people are biased against people that are of certain gender and they instert gender biased slur into their criticism.
Example:
I was talking with three girls and one of them started to put make-up on her face.
Since to me make-up=filth (literaly), I looked at her with slight disapproval.
They told me that they that wourld would be better if all man died.
Since my disgust towards make-up didn't have anything to do with my gender, it was a perfect example of gender based slur.

Another example are men who think that every stupid behaviour of various women is caused by the fact that they are women, not by the fact that they are badly brought up or inherently stupid as individuals.

I think that it's easier to live with someone that is stupid because he/she is male/female than with someone that is stupid as individual.

Behaviour in a man which is "authoritative" is described by those wishing to criticise the woman as bitchy, aggressive, domineering. Characteristics in a man for which he is admired, are not admired in a woman - by those wishing to keep the woman out of their territory, or make them be quiet. I believe we had a little example of this on this very forum, a few days ago!

Authorative=bitchy, aggressive, domineering.
Not, they are not admired.
People who are aserative is admired.
People who are authorative are rejected, loathed, hated, feared and very unhappy.

Please let's not have a line of argument suggesting that women are biased against men, and men are now suffering awfully at the hands of nasty women who have taken control of the world. As to the suggestion that women are taking over the world, and earning more than men - I WISH!! Damn, that'd be great! No more having to fight the same battles over and over again, no more having to put up with slurs based on my gender, end of the abortion debate! Bring it on!

Now you are authorative and sexist.
I think that we all need to get rid of identyfying with gender.
Personally I don't care who rules, women or men.
To me they are all usurpers that try to enforce their false laws upon me.
I don't care who they are as long as they are weak and too busy with squabling among themselves to create something constructive.
Subhumans, is what they are.
Any man or woman who tries to gain political power is stupid and corrupted by definition.

Personally I think that a good president should listen to metal, have long, wear black jumpsuit/fatigues and be antitheist, gender is irrevelant.
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Offline Eral

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2005, 07:24:00 PM »
Sorrow, please don't call me names.

Aurora, that is a very good point: if people do vote for Hillary, it could mean that perceptions are changing and gender-bias is diminishing. That would be a very hopeful and uplifting thing.
I guess my first statement is clouded by cynicism. I feel "Anybody can be president" is really only true now for millionaires with connections to political and big business figures, and really really good advertising campaigns that costs millions of dollars: eliminating all but a few from the race. For women to get backing from the political machine would mean the boys there would have to let go their prejudices - and I just don't see it happening. 
After all these years of women having successful careers in politics, we still only have a handful of women who were or are leaders of countries - they are still exceptions, not precedents. In Australia, every single woman in politics who gets named as a contender for PM gets ruthlessly torn down, rubbished and marginalised - it's a kiss of political death.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2005, 07:55:02 PM »
Whenever someone wants to criticise a woman, they invariably insert a gender-based slur into their criticism.
And whenever someone wants to criticise a man, they invariably insert a gender-based slur into their criticism.

Quote
Behaviour in a man which is "authoritative" is described by those wishing to criticise the woman as bitchy, aggressive, domineering.
And behaviour in a woman which is "caring" is described by those wishing to criticise the man as weak, pathetic and homosexual.

Quote
Characteristics in a man for which he is admired, are not admired in a woman - by those wishing to keep the woman out of their territory, or make them be quiet. I believe we had a little example of this on this very forum, a few days ago!
If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, that wasn't an example of this at all.  It was an example of behaviour which is undesirable in both men and women (if you honestly believe that being an arrogant, sarcastic little git is an admirable trait for a man, you couldn't be more wrong), but is more frequently displayed by men.  I still can't believe you consider a man who believe women tend to be more intelligent and socially adept than men to be sexist.

If a man claims women don't share positive character traits with men then he may well be sexist, but I really don't see how it's sexist for a man to say that men tend to have certain character flaws which women do not... or do you believe that a larger number of women should be attempting to bed as many men possible, and paying far more attention to the latest sports results? To clarify, I personaly consider those things flaws in the male gender, not positive attributes - though I am of course aware that certain other men would strongly disagree with me, and indeed start questioning my manhood and/or sexuality for having such beliefs.

Quote
Please let's not have a line of argument suggesting that women are biased against men, and men are now suffering awfully at the hands of nasty women who have taken control of the world. As to the suggestion that women are taking over the world, and earning more than men - I WISH!!
I agree that men aren't exactly suffering at the hands of nasty women, etc, but I strongly disagree with the first part.  Many women are heavily biased against men... to the extent they even consider compliments made by men to be sexist remarks.  Although feminists usually claim to preach equality, many seem to hold (or at least express) extremely sexist beliefs.

Quote
Damn, that'd be great! No more having to fight the same battles over and over again, no more having to put up with slurs based on my gender, end of the abortion debate! Bring it on!
Men suffer slurs based on their gender at the moment, so why would it change for women if they were suddenly "in charge"?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 08:22:28 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2005, 08:57:13 PM »
Just as long as none of you vote for Senator Clinton.
Certainly not. After her involvement with mods for games like San Andreas, she can kiss my vote good bye.
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Offline Imrahil

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2005, 09:20:02 PM »
All this, "There's no difference between black and white people, man and woman" is bullshit, to put it bluntly. I mean, I'm not saying that we should go around discriminating blacks if you're white, or whites if you are black. Or men/woman woman/men. There are racial differences! This doesn't mean hatred!
IMO, I think we need to cut discharger some slack here.  I've seen several posts in this thread, posted after his, which expressed almost the exact same sentiment just *with much better wording*.  He made no judgments based on race/gender, that I could see, just said that differences do exist & then parroted his mom.

I'm guessing he is younger than the average board member (heck, if nothing else just based on the facts that he self-nicknamed as "Red Dragon of Death" & also he can apparantly turn around from the computer & ask his mother's opinion).

Anyone who feels the need to combat his mother's influence should (again IMO) avoid calling him a racist &/or dismissing his views out of hand & should rather address his points & attempt to persuade him, as opposed to just slamming him into oblivion through insults, if you truly want to influence him.

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Offline Eral

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2005, 12:30:02 AM »
Nah, if we cut him slack it only encourages him. Mind you not cutting him slack only encourages him too. It is for this reason, I believe, sometimes people get cranky with him. He's been young for so long...
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Offline Evaine Dian

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2005, 04:38:26 AM »
[@Eral: I apologize, if I offended you. It's just my mother keeps saying some periods can even cause woman to kill.] All this, "There's no difference between black and white people, man and woman" is bullshit, to put it bluntly. I mean, I'm not saying that we should go around discriminating blacks if you're white, or whites if you are black. Or men/woman woman/men. There are racial differences! This doesn't mean hatred!

Sorry, that's all. Call me a rascit bastard, I don't give a damn.
I really think you should reread this paragraph and think whether this is actually the point you wanted to make. If it is then you're going to have a lot of problems in life. Oh, and if you're just reguritating your mother's views, then I suggest you start reading things like newpapers and start to develop your own views of the world.

And get yourself a good sex education book. You really need it.
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