Author Topic: Madam President  (Read 29067 times)

Offline glain

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2005, 05:50:33 PM »
I need to clear a few things up. First of all, I was raised a certain way, which doesn't mean that I'm unopen to new ideas, but that my mother has been raising me to believe that woman should be the one's staying home and the men should go out and get jobs. She believes in voting, going out and getting a job if no man is around, and a few other things. Just basically, anything a man should be doing, like typical man jobs, should be soley for men.

Discharger, your mother and I are of the same generation, me thinks. That is exactly how I was raised and was fulfilling my end of the bargin until I found myself a divorced mother of two, three months ago. I'm afraid that old-fashioned ideals don't have a place in this new era, we may not like it but we do have to respect it. Course I live in a community where being a stay at home mom is pretty much the norm, a woman working is see as odd, and you do get looked down upon if you work and have children. I still wish I could stay home and raise my kids until they are in high school, but that option has been taken away from me.

I think if a woman wants to go get a job that has heavy lifting or is dirty, then good for her. I believe a woman can do whatever she wants.
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Offline Bons

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2005, 06:02:06 PM »
One thing you said, though, has me asking a question:  what is the "glass ceiling" for women I keep hearing about?  I understand the concept, but I have yet to hear if there is an amount of money that women are supposedly unable to earn.

There are two aspects to what you are talking about here. The traditional "glass ceiling" issue is that women and minorities have made a huge leap in the percentage that hold managerial roles. The glass ceiling comes into play where executive positions are concerned. The higher the position of power, the less likely you will find a woman or minority holding it in an American corporation.

In terms of salary, there have been ongoing studies since the ERA amendment by groups like the U.S. General Accounting Office comparing the average salaries for men and women performing equivalent job roles. In the 70s, Women earned 59 cents on average for every dollar a man earned performing the same work. As of 2003, this average has increased to 76 cents for every dollar.
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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2005, 07:30:13 PM »
I see no reason why a woman could not be president. The country would benefit from a woman leader and perhaps improve our relations with other countries.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2005, 07:42:52 PM »
We had a woman prime minister once; haven't made the same mistake again. Yet.





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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2005, 07:45:58 PM »
While we don't officially have a female PM at the moment, some people would argue that Cheri Blair has more say over how this country is run than her husband :D.
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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2005, 07:57:06 PM »
I need to clear a few things up. First of all, I was raised a certain way, which doesn't mean that I'm unopen to new ideas, but that my mother has been raising me to believe that woman should be the one's staying home and the men should go out and get jobs. She believes in voting, going out and getting a job if no man is around, and a few other things. Just basically, anything a man should be doing, like typical man jobs, should be soley for men.

Discharger, your mother and I are of the same generation, me thinks.  That is exactly how I was raised and was fulfilling my end of the bargin until I found myself a divorced mother of two, three months ago.  I'm afraid that old-fashioned ideals don't have a place in this new era, we may not like it but we do have to respect it.   Course I live in a community where being a stay at home mom is pretty much the norm, a woman working is see as odd, and you do get looked down upon if you work and have children. I still wish I could stay home and raise my kids until they are in high school, but that option has been taken away from me.

I think if a woman wants to go get a job that has heavy lifting or is dirty, then good for her. I believe a woman can do whatever she wants. 
omg. you never said you got divorced! You should've stolen Ghrey at NotCon clearly. After all, can't go wrong with a pirate. Well. aside from their insatiable hunger for booty.

If a lass wants to stay at home and raise her kids etc, that's fine. But if she wants to work, and she posesses the skills etc, who are you (general you, not anyone in particular) to say "you shouldn't work, you should be at home."
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Offline discharger12

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2005, 08:57:56 PM »
I need to clear a few things up. First of all, I was raised a certain way, which doesn't mean that I'm unopen to new ideas, but that my mother has been raising me to believe that woman should be the one's staying home and the men should go out and get jobs. She believes in voting, going out and getting a job if no man is around, and a few other things. Just basically, anything a man should be doing, like typical man jobs, should be soley for men.

Discharger, your mother and I are of the same generation, me thinks.  That is exactly how I was raised and was fulfilling my end of the bargin until I found myself a divorced mother of two, three months ago.  I'm afraid that old-fashioned ideals don't have a place in this new era, we may not like it but we do have to respect it.   Course I live in a community where being a stay at home mom is pretty much the norm, a woman working is see as odd, and you do get looked down upon if you work and have children. I still wish I could stay home and raise my kids until they are in high school, but that option has been taken away from me.

I think if a woman wants to go get a job that has heavy lifting or is dirty, then good for her. I believe a woman can do whatever she wants. 

Well, getting divorced if your husband treats you horribly is something my mother supports. And I'm fairly sure the situation you are in would be fine. It is, in my opinion, anyway. Do what you need to do.  :)

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2005, 09:56:28 PM »
The country would benefit from a woman leader and perhaps improve our relations with other countries.

The magical diplomatic powers of vagina are just what America needs.

Offline St. Josephine

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2005, 10:55:14 PM »
The country would benefit from a woman leader and perhaps improve our relations with other countries.

The magical diplomatic powers of vagina are just what America needs.

I've got to say that I agree with this bit of sarcasm since I can't understand why people think that a woman president would be better simply because she's a woman.   
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Offline fcm

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2005, 11:27:29 PM »
The country would benefit from a woman leader and perhaps improve our relations with other countries.

The magical diplomatic powers of vagina are just what America needs.

I've got to say that I agree with this bit of sarcasm since I can't understand why people think that a woman president would be better simply because she's a woman.   

Who knows?

And Bons described the glass ceilling perfectly. Womens wages in professional fields are generally not equal to that of a man's. Your wife is a lucky exception.

As for raising children, I intend to have a career and take a good three years off to raise my children before I go back to work, but other than biologically obvious functions such as giving birth, I don't believe in any "woman's place" nonsense. Even my mom, who grew up in sexist, polygamous, rural Korea doesn't buy that.

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Offline jcompton

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2005, 11:51:59 PM »
And Bons described the glass ceilling perfectly. Womens wages in professional fields are generally not equal to that of a man's. Your wife is a lucky exception.

Quote
As for raising children, I intend to have a career and take a good three years off to raise my children before I go back to work

Which is sometimes why there's a wage/salary gap. For a while the gap was larger because of the shift where more women were becoming permanent, long-term fixtures in the workforce (legitimate "two-earner" families rather than the primary breadwinner plus the second spouse working part-time, often intermittently when more money was needed), and there were simply a whole lot more men who had professional/industrial/whatever workplace experience.

Now, the gap is smaller because more women are entering and staying in the workforce more-or-less straight through their adult lives, but then there's the scenario you just described. In a lot of fields, taking years off causes a measurable loss in one's value as an employee. Regardless of the reason for the time off, empirically two 30-year old workers in the same position, one with five years experience and one with two, may well end up being offered different amounts of money--particularly coming out of that idle period.

(Oh, and my wife makes more than I do, too.)
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Offline Eral

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2005, 12:18:07 AM »
Two things have to happen.
We need for all these stupid sexist beliefs to die. For dis to bring up my personal pet-hate about how women's periods incapacitate their functioning is a sad example.(Interestingly, having a period has never been grounds for stopping women from working in their homes and schools and for their families and for charities. Not exactly the places you'd really want someone you believe might do a Lizzie Borden at any minute.)The one about the differences in perceptions b/w men and women=inferiority/superiority has got to go too. Let's not set up impossible expectations and self-fulfilling prophecies. I won't bother listing anymore, because I'm sure we all know lots.

Then we have to change the whole way our political system works. At the moment only a small section of the community enters politics, because the adversarial nature of the game is just not that attractive to people. You have to be quite tough and argumentative and fall into a neat pigeon-hole to be in politics. Then to operate successfully you have to be prepared to lie, manipulate and backstab. Why anyone is in politics is a mystery to me. And there are just not enough women who have been taught it is OK to be Maggie Thatcher - or who want to be her - for there to be another one.

As for the lessons we learned at our mother's knee, it all depends on how happy your mother was with what she got. In America, the "American Dream" was sold very successfully and a lot of women bought it, mainly because they were punished if they didn't, but praised if they did. In other countries where women had a shit time whether thay were obedient or not, you get a different response. My mother -who is a very conservative person - was not allowed to go to school beyond primary level. She always felt this was an injustice. She insisted all of us- son and daughters- finish secondary school and supported us all through our tertiary educations. If you had suggested she was a feminist she would have been affronted.

The glass ceiling isn't just about pay - it's about promotion and position. The problem can often be that those doing the promoting often operate under the assumptions that dis seems to have so tragically absorbed. "Oh, she won't be focussed on her work because she has children/her period/pre-occupations with her hair." Again, we need to change the way we expect people to operate - that only people who can give uninterrupted service 16 hours a day deserve the top positions. How many times have you heard a woman criticised for being "aggressive"? And yet if she isn't aggressive -e.g. in politics, she will be dismissed as ineffectual. Glass ceiling. You can't win.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 03:36:03 PM by Eral »
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Offline Loriel

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2005, 02:32:17 AM »
While we don't officially have a female PM at the moment, some people would argue that Cheri Blair has more say over how this country is run than her husband :D.

That sounds familiar.  I've heard the same thing about Laura Bush and Hillary Clinton.

Offline Loriel

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2005, 02:48:43 AM »
@Bons
Like I said, I do understand the concept. Perhaps it's just where I live (Oregon is one of the most liberal states I've seen), but I see precious few examples of that concept being fleshed out around me. I personally know seven project managers at the various Intel campuses in the area - six of them are women and three of them make six figure incomes, not counting their husband's income. Of all my friends in the area, only two of the men actually make more than their wives. Now don't get me wrong, I think it's great that women can and have achieved that much success. I just don't like hearing about the "glass ceiling" that apparenly only applies to women, because I think that's a terribly sexist and unrealistic thing to say - the other way around.

@fcm
My wife would be pretty upset to hear you call her lucky. Luck is just another word for being prepared when opportunity hits and then acting on that opportunity. She has had to work hard to get what she has. She also hates hearing about the so-called "glass ceiling", because many times the people who talk about it (at least where we live) are just using that as an excuse for being lazy and not putting in the effort to get what they want. Obviously, if someone is working hard (regardless of gender) and isn't getting anywhere in life, they should probably look at doing something else that will work for them. It's just been our experience that people who are lazy will use any excuse to explain their lack of success - and the "glass ceiling" for women seems to be a popular one.

Offline St. Josephine

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2005, 07:11:37 AM »
The country would benefit from a woman leader and perhaps improve our relations with other countries.

The magical diplomatic powers of vagina are just what America needs.

I've got to say that I agree with this bit of sarcasm since I can't understand why people think that a woman president would be better simply because she's a woman.   

Who knows?

Women, just like men, have ideologies and ambition.  Bush sent Karen Hughes to the Middle East to talk to women because he thought they'd relate to a "working mom." It has been a fiasco.  So women aren't necessarily more diplomatic.  They can be just as clueless as men.  Yay for equality!

Would you vote for a woman whose ideology and values are totally different from yours simply because she was a woman?
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Offline fcm

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2005, 07:20:53 AM »
people who talk about it (at least where we live) are just using that as an excuse for being lazy and not putting in the effort to get what they want.

See, that's where you and I are fundamentally different. We obviously have completely opposite views on this issue. I take it you're not a fan of welfare, either, for the same reason?

Regardless of that, the fact still stands that women make less than men in the professional fields. And Eral put it marvelously that when women act like men, they're considered overly aggressive -- but if they're not "masculine" and "aggressive," they never get anywhere. But . . . Yeah, something seriously makes me doubt that we're going to find any common ground.
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Offline discharger12

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2005, 07:39:41 AM »
While we don't officially have a female PM at the moment, some people would argue that Cheri Blair has more say over how this country is run than her husband :D.

That sounds familiar. I've heard the same thing about Laura Bush and Hillary Clinton.

Haven't heard anything about Laura, but a bit about Hillary. Apparently, Bill has/h a few republican ideals, but because his wife was such a strong democrat, he sorta had to lean his way.

@Eral: I apologize, if I offended you. It's just my mother keeps saying some periods can even cause woman to kill. All this, "There's no difference between black and white people, man and woman" is bullshit, to put it bluntly. I mean, I'm not saying that we should go around discriminating blacks if you're white, or whites if you are black. Or men/woman woman/men. There are racial differences! This doesn't mean hatred!

Sorry, that's all. Call me a rascit bastard, I don't give a damn.

Offline Sorrow

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2005, 07:47:02 AM »
Regardless of that, the fact still stands that women make less than men in the professional fields. And Eral put it marvelously that when women act like men, they're considered overly aggressive -- but if they're not "masculine" and "aggressive," they never get anywhere. But . . . Yeah, something seriously makes me doubt that we're going to find any common ground.

Men who "act like men" are considered overly aggressive too, so it isn't a valid argument.
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2005, 08:42:51 AM »
@Eral: I apologize, if I offended you. It's just my mother keeps saying some periods can even cause woman to kill.

Yep. That's why the crime blotter in your local newspaper is absolutely filled with women aged 12-50 committing violent crimes, day in and day out!

Quote
All this, "There's no difference between black and white people, man and woman" is bullshit, to put it bluntly. I mean, I'm not saying that we should go around discriminating blacks if you're white, or whites if you are black. Or men/woman woman/men. There are racial differences! This doesn't mean hatred!

You know, someone was just asking me yesterday, "Jason? Where do you think the next great expert in gender and race biology and sociology is going to come from?" At the time, I didn't have an answer for them.

Now I know!
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Offline Alarielle

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2005, 09:07:56 AM »
@Eral: I apologize, if I offended you. It's just my mother keeps saying some periods can even cause woman to kill. All this, "There's no difference between black and white people, man and woman" is bullshit, to put it bluntly. I mean, I'm not saying that we should go around discriminating blacks if you're white, or whites if you are black. Or men/woman woman/men. There are racial differences! This doesn't mean hatred!

Sorry, that's all. Call me a rascit bastard, I don't give a damn.

You are a racist, because that simply isn't true.  Yes, there are physical differences between people of different races, but there are no inherent differences in mental ability, social responsibility, political prowess or anything else you care to mention.  Why are you even bringing this up?  It has absolutely no relevance in any political discussion.

And can you please stop talking about menstruation?  The only people who find the practicalities of the female reproductive system to be relevant to a woman's ability to function in a useful manner are men.  PERIODS DO NOT MAKE WOMEN KILL PEOPLE.  Female gonadotrophic hormones do not cause aggressive behaviour or violence.  Men who think they do, however...
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2005, 09:13:51 AM »
I wonder why I wrote that...
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 09:16:48 AM by SimDing0 »

Offline Idobek

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2005, 09:16:44 AM »
All this, "There's no difference between black and white people, man and woman" is bullshit, to put it bluntly. I mean, I'm not saying that we should go around discriminating blacks if you're white, or whites if you are black. Or men/woman woman/men. There are racial differences! This doesn't mean hatred!

Sorry, that's all. Call me a rascit bastard, I don't give a damn.
I really think you should reread this paragraph and think whether this is actually the point you wanted to make. If it is then you're going to have a lot of problems in life. Oh, and if you're just reguritating your mother's views, then I suggest you start reading things like newpapers and start to develop your own views of the world.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2005, 09:26:10 AM »
You are a racist, because that simply isn't true.  Yes, there are physical differences between people of different races, but there are no inherent differences in mental ability, social responsibility, political prowess or anything else you care to mention.

That there are no inherent differences in mental ability between different races isn't actually an established fact, and is a controversial issue even amongst biologists.  Besides, it isn't racist to acknowledge differences between races, but rather to think differences make certain races (or a race) "better" than others.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2005, 09:29:27 AM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Alarielle

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2005, 09:36:08 AM »
Perhaps, but I doubt that any of those biologists are asserting that any race is less intelligent, as a whole, than any other.  I'm not saying that his acknowledgement of the differences is racist, in fact quite the opposite.  I'm simply disagreeing with his assertion that race is relevant when it comes to politics, much in the same way that religion should have nothing to do with it.
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Offline SimDing0

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2005, 09:38:32 AM »
much in the same way that religion should have nothing to do with it.
Really? I'd say religion would be prone to provoking some absolutely appalling political decisions.