Author Topic: Madam President  (Read 29072 times)

Offline Joe

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2005, 01:23:44 AM »

If it is a duty, that seems to me to mean we have a responsibility to carry it out, and not just say, "Nah, can't be bothered." The idea that all voices be heard is very important. How many marginalised people don't vote because they don't see the point? Not good.  I want to know that it really was a majority of people who picked the country's leader. 
I think there are some things that should be legislated, and I don't see it as a denial of freedom. That "violation of liberty" is a justification for the gun laws in America makes me a little sceptical of it as an argument.
The idea that there should be a "don't care" option is a good one I think. This gives people freedom to properly express their views and for it to be registered. At the moment, the only way I can register my dissatisfaction is to vote for The Greens.

My line about "Australians hate politicians" was meant to be interpreted 2 ways - that here in Australia we talk a lot about how much we hate politicians and it is a fairly universal sentiment, or as light hearted hyperbole.

But you are saying that for now people should be compelled by the state to choose from a list of candidates when a voter may not want *any* of those people in office. Until that "Decline to choose" option is added, not voting is the only way one can freely exercise their right to not vote for people they don't want in office.

This is an extreme example, but I use it to illustrate my point: what if all of the candidates supported the ban of all literature? You're saying that, instead of not voting, I should be forced by the government to choose one of these fuckers?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 12:53:56 PM by Joe »

Offline Eral

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #101 on: November 07, 2005, 01:43:54 AM »
The voter is compelled to show up at the voting booth. Anyone who really doesn't want to vote can castan invalid vote - instructions are posted up all over the place about what an invalid vote is. Every election invalid votes are counted up and the number is discussed in the media. Low number = happy people who have had the process explained to them properly. High number - looks like there's a problem in the system.
I believe compulsory voting is a good practice here in my country, where we are still vestigially a democracy. I am opposed to voluntary voting because I believe apathy would disenfranchise a significant proportion of our population. I am not saying force everyone to endorse a candidate against their will: I am saying it is important that everyone casts a vote, because that is the only effective way of influencing our leaders. Not voting is not a clear message - whereas casting a vote is.
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Offline jcompton

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #102 on: November 07, 2005, 10:09:15 AM »
But you are saying that for now people should be compelled by the state to choose from a list of candidates when a voter may not want *any* of those people in office. Until that "Decline to choose" option is added, not voting is the only way one can freely exercise their right to not vote for people they don't want in office.

"Democracy" is being imposed at gunpoint in Iraq. Whether or not attendance at the polls is mandatory seems like splitting that hair pretty fine, given your moral outrage about the latter (but curious lack of concern about the former.)

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This is an extreme example, but I use it to illustrate my point: what if all of the candidates supported the ban of all literature? You're saying that, instead of not voting, I should be forced by the government to choose one of these fuckers?

Failing to vote is an implicit vote for the eventual victor anyway. A bad slate of candidates harms the public whether or not their attendance is required.
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Offline Evaine Dian

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #103 on: November 07, 2005, 11:38:39 AM »
So much to the theory that you should show patience towards little trolls. ::)


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I think it's part of growing up to realize that you can't take the correctness of all the opinions your parents/relatives/friends have told you for granted; either their believes turn out to be "wrong" to you personally or on a general basis. It can be painful to see that people you adored as a child cling to silly, old-fashioned or sometimes even ruthless ideas. That doesn't mean you can't love them anymore; you just shouldn't believe everything you're told, but try to get to the bottom of things and find out what's "right" and "wrong".

Ah, but you see, I do disagree on a fair few things that my mother has suggested. And not just "later bedtimes." But in this case, I believe my mother doesn't exactly have silly, old-fashioned ideas. I'm mixed, but I still don't dismiss it as trash. And wasn't the world alot nicer in the old times?

I've noticed that now, people like you think that every idea they have is superior as long as it stays current.

People like me? I'm not a person who tries to follow every trend.  I don't say that a theory is necessarily true just because it's new, and older views are not necessarily wrong. I just believe in science and proven facts. I can tell, without any doubt, that your mother's ideas you mentioned here are not based on facts, but rather on superstition.
Oh, and the world was not nicer in the past. It's just our memory that tends to gloss over all flaws, so that we can cling to a romantic past whenever the present looks pretty grim.



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It's bold, yes. There are countries where children have their first sex education lessons in elementary school. Anyway, the sex education I'm talking about is not about kinky positions and dirty language, but about a truly scientific approach to all the superstitious nonsense you said about women and periods. People are more than mere slaves to their hormones.

My info on woman comes from a woman. Don't you think she kind of knows of what she speaks on this?

No, she doesn't.

"Show me how you do that trick! The one that makes me scream", she said,
"the one that makes me laugh!" she said and threw her arms around my neck.
"Show me how you do it and I promise you, I promise that
I'll run away with you, I'll run away with you..."

Offline Joe

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #104 on: November 07, 2005, 11:55:57 AM »


"Democracy" is being imposed at gunpoint in Iraq. Whether or not attendance at the polls is mandatory seems like splitting that hair pretty fine, given your moral outrage about the latter (but curious lack of concern about the former.)

Firstly, the topic of Iaq has come up. So it would be silly of me to start discussing it when we are talking about compulsory voting.

Secondly, I'd rather compel them into some form of democracy than have left Saddam Hussein in power. It probably could have been done later and should have been done with a different set of people in charge, but I think it is something that was going to have to happen.

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Failing to vote is an implicit vote for the eventual victor anyway. A bad slate of candidates harms the public whether or not their attendance is required.

Not necessarily. If I see no valuable difference between the victor and the loser, what is it to me? I should have the choice to say, "You know what, I ain't votin' for any of these crooks."

Offline jcompton

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #105 on: November 07, 2005, 12:08:01 PM »
Secondly, I'd rather compel them into some form of democracy than have left Saddam Hussein in power. It probably could have been done later and should have been done with a different set of people in charge, but I think it is something that was going to have to happen.

So let me get this straight.

You approve of imposing "You, as a sovereign nation, must vote" -- at gunpoint.

You do not approve of imposing "You, as a person, must vote" -- with a small economic sanction.

I seriously can't wrap my head around this. Not in a way that's remotely flattering to you, anyway.

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Quote
Failing to vote is an implicit vote for the eventual victor anyway. A bad slate of candidates harms the public whether or not their attendance is required.

Not necessarily. If I see no valuable difference between the victor and the loser, what is it to me? I should have the choice to say, "You know what, I ain't votin' for any of these crooks."

It doesn't matter what it is to you, the fact of the matter is that an uncast ballot represents implicit approval of the winner. If you fail to understand that, then you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the full implications of democratic selection. A system which does not ensure that a fully representative slate of candidates is presented to the electorate is flawed, but the flaw is not made-or-broken by compulsory versus optional suffrage.
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Offline Andyr

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #106 on: November 07, 2005, 12:16:35 PM »
I (think I) agree with the Comptinator on this one.
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Offline Joe

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #107 on: November 07, 2005, 12:37:49 PM »

So let me get this straight.

You approve of imposing "You, as a sovereign nation, must vote" -- at gunpoint.

You do not approve of imposing "You, as a person, must vote" -- with a small economic sanction.

It's quite a bit more complicated than that.

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It doesn't matter what it is to you, the fact of the matter is that an uncast ballot represents implicit approval of the winner. If you fail to understand that, then you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the full implications of democratic selection. A system which does not ensure that a fully representative slate of candidates is presented to the electorate is flawed, but the flaw is not made-or-broken by compulsory versus optional suffrage.

I didn't say the flaw was made or was broken by that, I am simply saying that, should I choose not to vote, I should not be penalized.

Choosing not to vote isn't always out of laziness or a lack of responsibility, but can be a legitimate way to express one's own discontent with the choice of candidates. If the missing vote is implicitly in favor for the candidate who wins, that doesn't mean that I, for not voting, have done something morally wrong or that I wanted that guy to win. If I wanted him to win I'd have voted for him in the first place; or against him if I felt that the other guy was even marginally better. Choosing not to vote should be my right.

I feel voting is an important duty, but I should be free from government sanctions if I choose not to vote.

Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #108 on: November 07, 2005, 02:33:27 PM »
Dear Everyone,

Shut your fat fucking mouth and make me a god damn egg sandwich.

Sincerely,
Corvis

P.S. Do you like me? Please check one (1):

(Y)

(N)

(Treehouse)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 02:38:16 PM by Corvis »

Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #109 on: November 07, 2005, 02:35:43 PM »
Dear Discharger,

You aren't allowed to have opinions anymore.

Neither is your mom.

Sincerely,
Corvis

P.S. Stop lying. We all know you don't have friends.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 02:39:11 PM by Corvis »

Offline Imrahil

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #110 on: November 07, 2005, 03:55:02 PM »
P.S. Do you like me? Please check one (1):

(Y)

(N)

(Treehouse)

Is this vote compulsory?

Offline Eral

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #111 on: November 07, 2005, 04:15:14 PM »
There should be an option "I am too frightened to say".
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline discharger12

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #112 on: November 07, 2005, 04:19:17 PM »
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I can tell, without any doubt, that your mother's ideas you mentioned here are not based on facts, but rather on superstition.

"Without any doubt"? Now that's a bold statement, indeed!

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Oh, and the world was not nicer in the past.

I'm not referring to the recent past (ie 10-20 years ago) I'm referring to way back. And even so, I'm surprised you aren't agreeing, what with everyone bitching about how much they hate Bush.

P.S. Stop lying. We all know you don't have friends.

I knew you were going to say that at some point!

@Icelus

Is that a request? Because if it is, I'll be sure to credit you for your fine addition to Tork.



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Re: Madam President
« Reply #113 on: November 07, 2005, 05:24:53 PM »
don't be silly.  If anyone should actually want to be president, something so meaning less as gender, race, sexual orientation, hair color, and height weight proportions should not even be an issue.  Same thing with marriage- if gay people want to step into what is generally a folly and contrary to natural human condition (which is in small groups rather than couples of two) let them go right ahead.  Plenty of other things to legislate besides taste and preference.

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #114 on: November 07, 2005, 05:30:48 PM »
I need to clear a few things up. First of all, I was raised a certain way, which doesn't mean that I'm unopen to new ideas, but that my mother has been raising me to believe that woman should be the one's staying home and the men should go out and get jobs. She believes in voting, going out and getting a job if no man is around, and a few other things. Just basically, anything a man should be doing, like typical man jobs, should be soley for men.

And as for the question, I think a more relevant question would be "Would society except a woman president?"


one of the great opportunities (and responsibilities I daresay) inherent in being alive is being able to OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES AND QUESTION THE IDEAS THAT ARE HANDED TO YOU.

if you come to the realiziation that they were right after all, more power to you, but don't waste your (and our) time by being someone's dummy.

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #115 on: November 07, 2005, 05:45:21 PM »
don't be silly.  If anyone should actually want to be president, something so meaning less as gender, race, sexual orientation, hair color, and height weight proportions should not even be an issue.  Same thing with marriage- if gay people want to step into what is generally a folly and contrary to natural human condition (which is in small groups rather than couples of two) let them go right ahead.  Plenty of other things to legislate besides taste and preference.

Shouldn't...but they are.
Shiny things, shiny things, shiny shiny shiny things!

clock sendak as guest

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #116 on: November 07, 2005, 05:53:04 PM »
Hah! I didn't expect to read that. Just because I don't know everything about womens' periods, doesn't mean I don't know anything about sex. It's not like I go into IRC and ask things about vaginal erection. I know more things about sex then most people my age. I know this sounds quite bold, but I know so many, many sexual terms and so much slang. So a sexual education book is something I definently do not need. I don't know how to prove this for you, and since it's very hard for people here to take my word for it, I'll just have to say, a big ol' "whatever" until anyone established that I know what I'm talking about, in this direction.

I'm guessing that un gran augmento del vocabulario was not what was being suggested "discharger", although since moving up from sarcasm to irony a few weeks ago I suggest you take a closer look at your nom de post.

Offline Cheeky Girl

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #117 on: November 07, 2005, 07:28:30 PM »
Oh.My.God!  I go away on a 2 month sabbatical, fry my computer, and manage to take over my friend's (not necessarily in that order); and I almost miss this thread.  I find it appalling that at this day age stupidity is still rampant.  Seriously Discharger, every time I read your posts I can't help but think that they should be accompanied by dueling banjos.   ::)

I'm not gonna waste my time trying to change your inmature and underdeveloped mind.  That is all.
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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #118 on: November 07, 2005, 08:00:24 PM »
Dear Everyone,

Shut your fat fucking mouth and make me a god damn egg sandwich.

Sincerely,
Corvis

P.S. Do you like me? Please check one (1):

(Y)

(N)

(Treehouse)

(Treehouse)

:D
Per me si va nella citta dolente.
Per me si va nell eterno dolore.
Per me si va tra la perduta gente...
Lasciate ogni speranza perduta che'entrate!

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Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #119 on: November 07, 2005, 08:04:21 PM »
Will Tork have a menstruation banter?
That is so wrong on many levels dude.
Per me si va nella citta dolente.
Per me si va nell eterno dolore.
Per me si va tra la perduta gente...
Lasciate ogni speranza perduta che'entrate!

Chosen of Mystra home to many mods.

Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #120 on: November 07, 2005, 08:06:50 PM »
Monarchy works on so many levels screw democracy. There are those who are fit to lead and those who are fit to serve. A queen would do nicely thank you.
Per me si va nella citta dolente.
Per me si va nell eterno dolore.
Per me si va tra la perduta gente...
Lasciate ogni speranza perduta che'entrate!

Chosen of Mystra home to many mods.

Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #121 on: November 07, 2005, 08:10:25 PM »
Unfortunately, the right to lead isn't genetic. One king/queen can be awesome, but their successor can be crap.
Shiny things, shiny things, shiny shiny shiny things!

Offline discharger12

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #122 on: November 07, 2005, 09:57:27 PM »
I hope this proves to everyone that I'm not f*cking crazy:

http://www.bodyandfitness.com/Information/Womenhealth/womenhealth.htm


A quote from the page "Reports of many suicides, deaths and murders by women occur during menstruation."

So, this proves that I am not some stupid idiot who has no idea what I'm talking about. You might think "Well it just occurs, like anything else. I could be eating an apple and killing someone. This doesn't mean people who eat apples are killers." So just read the article, kk?

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I'm not gonna waste my time trying to change your inmature and underdeveloped mind.  That is all.

So you just decided to post this? If you don't care, you wouldn't have said anything at all.

Good job.  :)

@Clock Sendak: I really don't understand you at all. Most of your posts don't make sense, and when they do somewhat, they are ridden with grammatical errors and CAPS. If you want to make a point, try not to sound stupid doing it. Even if the things I believe in are ridiculous, I can still attempt at writing correctly.

@Icelus: Notice that 'fine addition' is in italicization. And anyway, I'm seriously doubting that anyone who attempts to play Tork in future won't complain. It doesn't matter if I had the potential to win a Pulitzer (or some sort of book award), I'd still hear the whining.

Offline icelus

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #123 on: November 07, 2005, 10:05:51 PM »
Anyone care to count the typos and grammar errors in the first paragraph of that site?  Also, gotta love the generic Microsoft Office layout theme.
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Madam President
« Reply #124 on: November 07, 2005, 10:10:34 PM »
Hehehe!  That link is hilarious.  "If you have PMS please get help, PMS will not go away by itself."

You might as well say, "There are reports of many women eating apples during menstruation.  As such, women should not be allowed to work in orchards, lest they deplete the world's supply of apples."

I could come up with more.  They're pretty fun.
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