Author Topic: Cheating creatures  (Read 18566 times)

Offline Bex

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2006, 11:26:05 AM »
About Imoen magic wand missile, how by the hell do you still have this wand? it get 10 charges, and I usually use it far before Naskel's mine. (unless you save it because you knew you would need it for Mulahey, and in that case, you are doing meta gaming)

I never save it because I "need it for Mulahey," but it's never used up before then either, because I don't need it for wolves, kobolds, and hobgoblins. I'm likely to have used a couple of charges each for Tarnesh, Neira, and (maybe) Silke by then, but that's all.
Silverjon's Journal: a Baldur's Gate fanfic/semi-AAR, by yours truly

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2006, 01:57:07 PM »
well if you don't like it then why play it?:P
I play BG1, not just Nimbul. If the entire game was full of Nimbul-like encounters, the game would suck big-time and this forum wouldn't even exist.

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overcoming your greatest challenge will give you a huge boost in satisfaction
Figuring out the locations of the Cloak and Helm of Balduran = Satisfying
Killing Nimbul only because your PC was the one party member that did not become the target of a Magic Missile = Not Satisfying

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and it's beatable anyway
So is Drizzt. Does that in itself prove that the encounter is balanced?


SixOfSpades, you know that I do agree with you most times . . .

I must say that Enhanced Creatures' primary goal, as the title implies, is make the encounters more difficult. To make them legal is a lower priority but absolutely not something that we do not consider as important. . . .

I also want a game that should not make the player A) Reload dependant B) Frustrated. Unfortunately "Metagaming" is almost unavoidable with this kind of Mod. At least at a certain level.

I have faith that you will enjoy Enhanced Creatures once it's out. Better: I have faith that this Mod will be a reference Mod for every player that has beaten Baldur's Gate before and wants to enjoy a more realistic, more challenging and even more legal experience.
And I am mostly in agreement with you: My sole bone of contention is that Nimbul sure as hell doesn't need to be any more difficult than his default BioWare version. Go ahead and smarten up his AI, but I feel that that must be accompanied by lowering his caster level (or at least make it dependent on the party's average level, or the difficulty setting of the game) to something that the party has a chance of withstanding.

I feel that the "beatablility" of an encounter, for a party of expected levels, should never take a back seat to the Official Version, or how the creature(s) in that encounter would logically behave, or even the legality of such an encounter. The amount of challenge presented should take top priority over everything else--hell, if the enemies always acted wisely and covered all their bases, the game would end right outside of Candlekeep, as Sarevok would use his 17 INT and order Tamoko to follow the PC, while he was busy skewering Gorion.

In Short: I am glad that Enhanced Creatures is going through the game and rectifying many instances of BioWare taking the easy way out by cheating their monsters attributes that they shouldn't have, rather than giving them a better AI. I am glad that many of the types of creatures, such as Bears, should now pose more of a realistic challenge. I am disappointed, however, that anybody thinks Nimbul should be tougher than he already was.

I'll review the mod, but please don't expect any great alacrity on my part, or anywhere near the trouble I went to with the Tactics review. I'll be giving my website a complete overhaul, and adding a sub-chapter on my mod reviews, and everything noteworthy should get a mention.


I disagree, Davaeorn is a level 9 mage with good equipment, it's just that currently, he had poor spells selection, bad script. With a good kit, good spells, and right script, Davaeorn will become a challenge. Nimbul, even as a level 9 bard, would have no chance against him.
Actually, the BioWare versions of Nimbul and Daveorn are pretty evenly matched: They're both high-level (for BG1) Mages with the same AC, and I'm estimating roughly the same amount of hitpoints. Daveorn's only strengths were his long-lasting Protection from Normal Missiles and the fact that his Lightning Bolts are incredibly deadly in those confined spaces. All I'm saying is that that level of challenge is to be expected on the boss of a vast underground complex deep in the woods, protected by Wyverns--it is not to be expected on some guy who walks up to you when you're just getting back from your very first quest.


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I'm sorry to have to say this, but it sounds like you don't know how to use a Tank. If you run a party member up within melee range of an enemy, that enemy will switch to its melee attack,
By the time you run into melee range, you should have recieve a volley of arrows. Because kobold are usually in groups of 5-6, they can easily kill one person before they ever get in melee range.
Who the heck do you use as your Tank, and what the hell are they wearing? I agree that Kagain is pretty much the best Tank imaginable, but only after you've got his DEX pumped up. Limited to the setup you described earlier, I would use Shar-Teel as the Tank, wearing Plate and the Girdle of Piercing. You'll take a hit now and then (everyone does), but provided you make sure that the Tank is the first person that the Kobolds see, it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

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About the Traps: I agree, a Level 1 Thief who put all his points into Lockpicking in order to grab that Star Sapphire at the beginning of the game will certainly not be able to find and disarm all those Traps. But a sensible Thief, who spreads his points between Detect Traps and Stealth (augmented by Zhurlong's Boots of Stealth), will have no problems whatsoever.
This does imply to have either a thief PC or a multiplayer party. I always play with NPC, and at this point, I have Imoen as a thief. She is unable to remove the traps even at level 2. Especially if you play the P&P rule : no more than 15 points in a thief talent at level up. Zhurlong's boots don't help you to disarm traps...
Ummm....even Level 1 Imoen has no problems with the Traps, and neither does Montaron. Are you playing some drastically different version of the game as the rest of us, or something?  ???

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Priests are more difficult to interrupt, sometimes a single magic missile or something like an arrow won't interrupt the spellcaster. He takes damage but will cast his spell anyway. About Imoen magic wand missile, how by the hell do you still have this wand? it get 10 charges, and I usually use it far before Naskel's mine. (unless you save it because you knew you would need it for Mulahey, and in that case, you are doing meta gaming)
Yeah, I also notice spellcasters (Wizards too, not just Priests) taking hits and continuing to cast regardless. It happens in BG2 as well. I wish I knew what exactly governs when a spell is disrupted, and when the damage can be ignored. But regarding the wand: As Bex said, it deals only a trifling amount of damage, so it's next to useless in most fights, but it's a guaranteed hit, so it's most useful when you want to disrupt somebody's spells. (Or hit somebody who's immune or highly resistant to other forms of damage.)

Offline Salk

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2006, 11:26:22 PM »
SixOfSpades,

I agree with you about Nimbul being a hard enough fight in original Baldur's Gate. It's not that strange I used him as first creature edited by me with NI to make him legal.

Bioware has technically made Nimbul a Mage/Thief Lvl 7/7.

We can start from this and wonder if this is proper. Although my answer would go against the developers' decision, I would clearly say no for several reasons. First and foremost: playability and game balance. These two factors are the only ones that would make me choose/edit something that it's not completely legally PnP and/or would go against the game's original spirit/development.

Nimbul must be a Bard. Human. Single-class. So I will ask aigleborgne to change him accordingly in his Mod. Note that even the ingame avatar is a Bard's one and not a Mage's.

Now, decided that, we must think of giving him a level. Bioware's choice was level 7/7 Mage/Thief but we saw clearly that Nimbul's characteristics were all screwed up making him tougher than it should even be.

Now the question is: after having corrected all the mistakes (natural AC back to 10 instead of being for some reason 5, legal selection of spells, corrected Thac0, substitution of Throwing Axes with Throwing Daggers, ecc. ecc.), what level should be proper in order to make the challenge as hard as it was before but in a different, more "enjoyable" way ?

Well, we can discuss it of course but let's notice that a Lvl 7 Mage has a base spell progression of 4-3-2-1 while a Lvl 9 Bard has 3-3-2. His magic powers would be pretty much drastically tuned down in this way. aigleborgne's improved AI would certainly make him much tougher though as and much better prepared for the battle (and it's just logical, since he's out on mission and *knows* he's gonna fight you) making the difficulty bar raise. HPs will also be higher but this can be fine, I believe.

I must concur with aigleborgne about Daveorn being much more powerful than a so modified Nimbul (legal Bard Lvl 9) in a single fight as Bards are classes of "support" mostly. Their key power is their song. Alone a Bard is pretty screwed facing a Mage of same level.

In the Iron Throne structure also, Nimbul could be just a "freelance" hired only at times for making the dirty job. With that meaning he's not really making a "career" and having a simple rank of assassin (hence the need of kitting him making him a Blade).

Lastly, we can't forget that we are still speaking of an encounter between one and, likely, six players. It's true that one would be extremely higher level character but still I'd rather face the encounter from the party's side as I see more chance of victory in this way.

Once aigleborgne will go through NPCs, I will keep in close contacts to verify, test and approve modifications as this is my role (advisor and general helper) which I gladly assumed.

To conclude, I'd believe that Nimbul made a Level 9 Blade might not unbalance the game but rather make it more consistent. We will see if maybe Level 8 could be more appropriate once we deal with Nimbul. Have faith, my friend!  ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 11:29:26 PM by Salk »

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2006, 04:45:27 AM »
It seems that each player have its own path and I must agree that if you encounter Nimbul with a level 2 party, he is tough.

I prefer to do all other quests and explore most of the aeras before doing the main plot. That's way, I'm often level 6-7 in naskel mine.
(but I usually play alone till level 6).

Just to say that difficulty of an encounter depends on the level of the party. But it would make no sense to adapt difficulty because a party is too weak to beat Nimbul.
A party can always flee a battle and come back later.
As you may have noticed, the assassins are increasing in levels:
level 1 in candlekeep
level 5 in friendly inn, beregost, and naskel tavern
level 7 (nimbul)
then level 11 (larze)

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2006, 05:40:14 PM »
Nimbul must be a Bard. Human. Single-class. So I will ask aigleborgne to change him accordingly in his Mod. Note that even the ingame avatar is a Bard's one and not a Mage's.
Hmmm....I wouldn't say that he must be a Bard, I simply prefer that over Thief/Mage--because Bards are a bit cooler, and of course much more rare. A Thief/Mage would use the Thief avatar, not the Mage avatar, so of course an unarmored Thief/Mage and an unarmored Bard would look exactly the same.

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Well, we can discuss it of course but let's notice that a Lvl 7 Mage has a base spell progression of 4-3-2-1 while a Lvl 9 Bard has 3-3-2. His magic powers would be pretty much drastically tuned down in this way.
:-\ Ahhhh....that depends on what you mean by "toned down." Yeah, he has fewer spells, but his Magic Missile is even deadlier, which is precisely what I hate about Nimbul and Tarnesh. (Borda, on the other hand, is essentially a duplicate Nimbul/Tarnesh, but I don't complain about him because he's not on the Main Plot: The party has to go out adventuring into the wilderness to find him, and they're likely to be a bit more experienced by that point. And Borda doesn't cheat, either.)

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To conclude, I'd believe that Nimbul made a Level 9 Blade might not unbalance the game but rather make it more consistent. We will see if maybe Level 8 could be more appropriate once we deal with Nimbul. Have faith, my friend!
Well. We shall see. I do not believe I have any more points/advice to give--if you and aigleborgne choose to remain unswayed, that is of course your right. If you choose to make a mod that forces (or at least strongly encourages) players to go solo against some Basilisks until they're Level 6, that is also your right.

Offline Salk

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2006, 01:10:18 AM »
A Thief/Mage would use the Thief avatar, not the Mage avatar, so of course an unarmored Thief/Mage and an unarmored Bard would look exactly the same.

Silly me!  :P You're right about the avatar indeed...But as you had said, there are no Bards in game that challenge you so it'd be a nice touch although now that I think about it, I must confess I'd like it better if it was not alone since I'd love to have an enemy bard sing for his allies...  ;D

What I can tell you is this: remembering clearly your points of criticism to Tactics, I will try to do intensive testing to see if the challenge is "proper". Of course, what is proper is a very subjective argument so I can't be sure that all will be pleased the same way. Let's say that aigleborgne is the one whom enjoy a level of difficulty that I sometimes find going over the limit and he's also the author of the Mod so it's him having the last word on everything (and fairly so). But he's also a very intelligent guy who listens to other people's advice so I am sure he'll welcome feedback.

There will be a new Alpha version (for testing purpouse) only at Black Wyrm in a month from now perhaps. You'll be welcome to download it and CLUA in and try out some modified encounters if you like...  ;)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2006, 01:15:32 AM by Salk »

Offline aigleborgne

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2006, 04:00:00 AM »
Let me clarifiy some things:

I don't want to make things easier that they already are. So if you have troubles with the current game, just don't install a mod like enhanced creatures.

I don't encourage peoples to play as I do. I just say how I was playing, and I am probably not the only one that doesn't do Naskel's mines at level 1-2.
The purpose of a game like Baldur's gate is a (nearly) total freedom.

That said, I must admit I was doing some things that shouldn't be possible, and thus, won't be doable in my mod (killing high level creatures with a level 1-4 pc).
But there are still many low level quests that you can do before doing anything about the main plot.

Oh and I forget to mention one thing : there is a group of amazones near the naskel's mines exit. Don't you think they are intended to meet the party at this point of the game? They are far more powerful than Nimbul. But as I said many times, you can simply avoid them or flee if you run into them.

About classes change, yes there will be many ones since I want to exploit all the classes and kits in the game.

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2006, 08:02:53 PM »
I don't want to make things easier that they already are. So if you have troubles with the current game, just don't install a mod like enhanced creatures.
What depresses me about this is that the mod you describe appears to have so much good potential: Bears that can grab you (if you fail your Save vs. Death) sound great, bears that can grab you and run faster than you would be even better (seeing as how real-life bears can exceed 30 miles per hour). But now the whole mod idea comes off as sounding rather cheap and unwholesome by comparison: Instead of smartening up and diversifying only those creatures that didn't get the respect they deserved in the original game (such as Ogre-Magi), now we learn that you're just making all the enemies 2 levels higher and with nastier spellcasting. (Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit here. Big deal.)

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The purpose of a game like Baldur's gate is a (nearly) total freedom.
Exactly. And you are denying everyone who installs your mod the freedom to start a new game, collect, Imoen, Xzar, Montaron, Khalid, and Jaheira, head south, clear the Nashkel Mines, and come back and enjoy their first triumph. Instead, you're going to force them to break into every house in Beregost and go over the surrounding wilderness areas with a fine-tooth comb, because they've got to collect every scrap of EXP they can if they want to go up against the dreaded monster that is the (new) Main Plot.
In my humble opinion, that sounds like a pretty underhanded thing to do.

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there is a group of amazones near the naskel's mines exit. Don't you think they are intended to meet the party at this point of the game? They are far more powerful than Nimbul. But as I said many times, you can simply avoid them or flee if you run into them.
After killing Mulahey, the party has achieved their goal, and the documents in his chest have "You have finished your quest, now you've got to track down some bandits" written all over them. So, true, the party has not completely explored the mine, but then, it's not like the "secret exit" is all that visible either. I've always felt that the roleplaying thing to do is backtrack your way up through the mine again, bringing the news of what was really causing the iron crisis back to the people to whom it matters the most--the miners, and then the town of Nashkel. As far as I'm concerned, the exit from the Nashkel Mines was just something that BioWare put in, decided not to really use, and then they forgot to remove it.
But if you'd really like me to deal with the group of Cyricists, I can say this: They're pretty much nowhere near the exit from the Mines, whereas Nimbul is parked right in front of the only Inn for miles around, and you're likely to be Fatigued from your march and the fighting. The Cyricists are in a wilderness area that you've never explored, while Nimbul is in an area that you've already cleared of all enemies, and would obviously frown on anybody trying to kill off the people who've just saved the town from sure economic ruin. And the Cyricists are in a map chock-full of tough encounters (Revenant, Narcillus Harwillinger Neen, Mustard Jellies, Ghasts at melee range, etc.), sending the party a clear message that "This Map Was Meant For Higher-Level Characters And You Really Should Go Home To Nashkel You Silly Little Newbies." And again, Nimbul occupies an area that is not only straddling the Main Plot, but featured only a single low-level Cleric as its only hostile creature.

Offline Salk

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2006, 01:55:41 AM »
...now we learn that you're just making all the enemies 2 levels higher and with nastier spellcasting. (Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit here. Big deal.)

Six of Spades,

just let me precise that very few monsters/NPCs will actually have a higher level. Let me be more clear about this: NPCs and Monsters in Baldur's Gate have, as you know, many statistics screwed meaning that they have often a higher Thac0, AC and Saving Throws than the legal level should have. aigleborgne is usually changing this in such a way that their current Thac0, Saving Throws and AC are now legal by raising their level. Another approach could have been to match every parameter to their original level but in that way Monsters and NPCs would become actually weaker than before (at least in terms of pure "physical" power) and aigleborgne doesn't want this. However, generally speaking, I don't know if I can consider a Dual Class Mage/Thief Lvl 7/7 more dangerous than a Bard Lvl 9...

Do not let these minor accomodations stop you from trying Enhanced Creatures once it's out. I am sure you won't be disappointed despite having some encounters much more dangerous than before.

Again about Nimbul...I must confess that I followed your same ingame strategy before. That is, I didn't really go exploring all around to collect experience before cleaning the mines and returning to Nashkel. Nevertheless, Nimbul has really never managed to kill my main character and I must have played the game (that part at least) 7-8 times. Often I got one or two party memeber dead, it's true but using two tanks and magic (I have a mage and a bard and they both can cast Magic Missile) I didn't end up with so much troubles against him. Once you take off his Mirror Image he becomes pretty vulnerable in melee despite his illegal (it won't be so any longer in Enhacned Creatures), lower AC...

Have faith!  8)

Offline icelus

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2006, 12:00:07 PM »
Right, so, now that we've discussed the Enhanced Creatures mod, would anyone care to list some characters that need to be fixed?  Bear in mind that Echon overhauled most, if not all, creatures in the game to be more in line with P&P for Fields of the Dead.
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Offline Ayce

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2006, 12:04:09 PM »
For what it's worth, because I too have found Nimbul so dfficult.  I've started launching preemptive strikes against him.  With two good archers, I can usually kill him before he dialogues with you.  I say, fair is fair, he says "death come for me" so he is clearly threatening me, I say why wait to hear what he has to say.

I've also heard of people running into the store and waitng out his mirror image, in fact, timed just right, you can get him to waste spells without sufferng ill effects.

It's a shame to have to resort to this, but the premise of this thread is right on.  Nimbul is too damn hard for a lvl 1-2 party!!!  Even though I usually get sidetracked a lot and am lvl 3-4 by that time.

Just like the incredible spawning rate in some areas (especially when you save and reload in an area), there comes a point where it just isn't fun anymore. 

Offline Ayce

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2006, 04:34:51 PM »
While we're on the subject of cheating creatures, has anyone ever noticed that enemy archers seem to score hits more often than they should?  I'm basing this assertion on mathematical principals.  For example, if a creature has a THAC0 of 14 and you have an AC of 0, than they should hit on a score of 14 or higher, right?  That would be a 7 ot ouf 20 chance, or 35% or roughly 1/3 chance of hitting you.

So how come, I see them hitting you like 7 out of 9 times a lot?  This isn't just a freak of statistics, it happens all the time.  It has long been my suspicion that arrows/missles, by design or by bug, disregard certain AC modifiers (like armor).  I don't have the knowledge or skill to examine the code and confirm or deny this, but maybe someone who reads this post might................

I do know how the mathematical principles involved work, so I'm pretty sure I'm onto something.

Offline Da_venom

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2006, 02:49:50 PM »
lol you know kangaxx was supposed to be a cheating unit as well, but later when everybody knew how he was going to die.. it was simple..

same goes for every other "CHEATING" creature..
every goon has his weakness

tyrion

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2006, 07:37:29 AM »
If I was a assasin hunting for Child of Bhall I would wait for him to be after a tought battle(mines) and exhausted to easily kill him and his companions. I would also ambush them in place that I would think they will come to save me work. So I think the idea of impoved Nimbul is good and SixOfSpades arguments are not convincing me to his point of view. I say more :I totally disagree with him in most points.Someone wrote that saving mm wand is a metagaming. Huh, I`m right now playing BG1 for first time and saved this wand to battle with him, because I always save better items just in case, so thinking only meta gamers think ahead of battles to come is wrong,because I didn`t know that I will face him. Harder is better imho, I prefer enemies that don`t cheat and are betable without metagaming even at somewhat low levels , but only using good tactics etc(I loved Tactics and menaged to beat imp.Ilych without any cheats after many reloads , but it was great fun ;) ) .

Offline Salk

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2006, 10:27:07 AM »
tyrion,

the "problem" is that lots of people, and for me fairly so, hate to reload all the time in order to beat enemies on steroids. Technically this situation is a game balance issue.

You see, games shouldn't even have difficulty level sliders in my opinion. The "Core Rule" level should be the only one people would play on Baldur's Gate. The others have no real reason to exist because an easier level advantage unfairly the player while the opposite happens on "Insane".

A very well developed AI (which is missing but Big Picture, Quest Pack, Enhanched Creatures, TuTu AI will take care of that each in its specific way) is the only real challenge a player should face.

Realism and legalization would be the two bases for game development both supporting an appropriate gameplay.

tyrion

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Re: Cheating creatures
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2006, 02:55:18 PM »
Games imho must have difficulty slider because so many difrent kinds of people play them. Some of them are total newbies to D&D, other play BG for years and know almost everything about spells, game mechanics etc. Their needs cannot be satysfied by one difficulty level. I`m rather fresh BG player, I play maybe 3 moths, but tactics mod gave me some experiance in planning battles, and I really like battles when I must reload a few times to win, I would say more - if a "special" battle with say chief of big bandit band is so easy that standard tactic is just all that you need to win in you first attempt  I think it`s boring after some time. Weidu installations allow you to choose components, so It is good that mods drastically incrasing difficulty are made and they are made because people want to play them. Did you try ascesion+redemption ending battle?  If you dont like this kind of combat when reloads often are a must and if mod allows you not to install some of harder components I think all is good :D Only thing that I dont like is that I cannot try this mod on BGT because more i read about bgUB more i want to try :P

 

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