Author Topic: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.  (Read 20232 times)

Offline Eral

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #150 on: October 04, 2005, 02:51:42 AM »
I think the real reason Junior and friends decided to go after Saddam was that he was supposed to be the puppet of the American government, but he got a little too full of himself and stopped being conveniently annoying to Iran. I read an article suggesting part of Junior's motivation was scoring one for Senior. The reasons they give for the war all sound nice, it's just they ring hollow - particularly after they ignored him for so long.

Loriel, the bravery or right action of service people is not in question. The decision by the government -which endangers them - can be questioned. When Afghanistan was invaded, I believed that a step to assist the people of Afghanistan had been taken, and that Al-Queda would find it less easy to operate. But I didn't see how chucking out Saddam was connected to Sept 11th. I was grieved that George used the sorrow and loss so many people experienced to justify a military action that did not seem to be connected to it.
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Offline jester

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #151 on: October 04, 2005, 05:10:50 AM »
If there is any lesson from Iraq and North Korea than it is for every country to get your hands on nuclear weapons asap.
The US is pretty good at bossing around third world countries, but once they are either large and/or have nuclear capacity whatever that means they ressort to mere barking. One of these days China will decide to invade Taiwan after all and the US and its allies will not be able to do anything about it than protest. Of course it is because New Europe lacks sufficient nuclear and naval capabilities and old Europe is having a nap. :P

Also:
Saddam=Noriega? Henchman retrieval and exchange can be a tricky business. Choose your bastards carefully!
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Offline discharger12

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #152 on: October 04, 2005, 05:50:56 AM »
I think this topics gone a bit off-topic? (Not to say I didn't contribute to that)

Maybe we should get back to "OMG New Orleans, let's pray/hope they're okay"ing?

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #153 on: October 04, 2005, 06:45:17 AM »
The ironic thing is that the invasion of Iraq is the direct cause of there now being far more terrorists in the world than there were before the invasion.
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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #154 on: October 04, 2005, 07:25:18 AM »
The ironic thing is that the invasion of Iraq is the direct cause of there now being far more terrorists in the world than there were before the invasion.

Yes, but wouldn't you say that this means the terrorist are finally being weeded out? They're just acting out because now's the time to attack.

(okay, being quiet now; really, from now on in this thread)

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #155 on: October 04, 2005, 07:43:31 AM »
What I meant is that the invasion of Iraq has provoked a large number of once ordinary middle eastern citizens into becoming extremists.
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Offline jester

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #156 on: October 04, 2005, 08:37:15 AM »
Surely even the foxes out there must see that the insurgency is 'in its last throes'. (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/The_Daily_Show_last_throes.mov) Sadly these last throes may well last another couple of years. Since you toppled the only non-religious state in the region other than Turkey, things may not calm down soon. Add to it that you are now training your future foes disguised as policemen in Iraq.

Think about what you are spending over there and you will see how this connects to recovery at home.

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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #157 on: October 04, 2005, 08:39:21 AM »
Saddam had NO ties to Al-Qaeda too. They approached one of his minions, but no support was ever offered.

So I suppose the media is lying?

That's a Yes. As was revealed in THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S OWN INVESTIGATION INTO THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACK.

One of the motivations I've seen for Juniors attack was revenge for the attempted assassination of Senior that Saddam tried to pull off. It's at least got truth in it, unlike every other reason we've been thrown.

As for broken resolutions, let's start with something easy. http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr510612004 Important lines:
Quote
Earlier, the Security Council had passed a resolution in which it reminded all states to "ensure that any measure taken to combat terrorism comply with all their obligations under international law, and should adopt such measures in accordance with international law, in particular international human rights, refugee, and humanitarian law."(36) That resolution was passed one year after the first prisoners arrived at Guantánamo Bay. Almost 600 are still held there without any sort of legal process, in violation of international law and flying in the face of the Security Council’s resolution.(37)

I don't advocate armed conflict against Iraq, why would I advocate it against NK?
As for troop casualties. Most of the 2000 casualties are from "After the end of Major Combat Operations"

And as for Illegal, we're talking in the terms of international law, not simply on a national basis. See: http://www.ejdm.de/stop%20the%20war.htm and http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/030318/2003031821.html

Before the USA declared War, the inspectors were getting everything they'd asked for. The USA attacked before they delivered their final report however. And it was expected to turn up EMPTY. So, why was there any need for War? NO WMDs, NO connection to Al-Qu'aeda (I've seen about 4 different spellings of the name in my linkhunting). Resolution 1441 only supported the use of force if there were no other options...ie if Iraq fobbed off other UN approaches.

As for Iraq stopping Terrorist attacks...it hasn't. They've gone up. Both within Iraq (dramatically), and outside Iraq. It's now a less safe environment globally, contributed to by unwarranted USA aggression.

And if Terrorists are being weeded out, how come their numbers are growing?

Quote
Quote
Bear in mind these Programs were in place from BEFORE the first Gulf War.

Quote
Not relevant.
So it's not relevant that he laid plans for that before he had any idea of what resolutions would be placed upon Iraq once the USA had finished?

Quote
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Why would he bother to go round to all the people in the program and say "Forget about it, we're not going to bother" as opposed to just...not reactivating them.

...because he wouldn't need to use them ever again. But who believes that he wouldn't?
Quote
We'll just ignore the fact that developing WMDs isn't banned in any UN resolution. And why wouldn't he ever need to use them ever again? Or is Iraq supposed to be on happy friendly terms with all its neighbours and never be under the possibility of attack ever?

(yeah, yeah, too lazy to get the proper quotes for the points I'm replying to. It's late n stuff)
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Offline Regullus

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #158 on: October 04, 2005, 12:52:18 PM »
I think the real reason Junior and friends decided to go after Saddam was that he was supposed to be the puppet of the American government, but he got a little too full of himself and stopped being conveniently annoying to Iran. I read an article suggesting part of Junior's motivation was scoring one for Senior. The reasons they give for the war all sound nice, it's just they ring hollow - particularly after they ignored him for so long.

 According to "they" (can't remember which they at the moment) Bush from the beginning had plans to invade Iraq. He became president in 2000, invaded Iraq in 2003. As to the "real" reason Jr. went to Iraq  is because of Daddy's failure and SH refusing (nobly) to continue being a puppet to the US, I will direct you to these links.

1) SH's bio:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_Saddam

2) Iran/Iraq war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_Saddam#The_Iran.E2.80.93Iraq_War   I would highlight the fact that the US was not the only Western country to assist SH or Eastern country either.

3) US/Iraq relations:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_War#Iraq_and_the_United_States_before_the_war

4) Causes of Gulf War 1*:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_War#Causes

5) The Post War Effect of Depleted Uranium: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_War#The_Post-War_Effects_of_Depleted_Uranium

 "The U.S. Department of State has also published a fact sheet on depleted uranium. It states: "World Health Organization and other scientific research studies indicate Depleted Uranium poses no serious health risks" and "[d]epleted Uranium does not cause birth defects. Iraqi military use of chemical and nerve agents in the 1980's and 1990's is the likely cause of alleged birth defects among Iraqi children." In regard to cancer claims, the fact sheet states that "[a]ccording to environmental health experts, it is medically impossible to contract leukemia as a result of exposure to uranium or depleted uranium," and "[c]ancer rates in almost 19,000 highly exposed uranium industry workers who worked at Oak Ridge National Laboratory projects between 1943 and 1947 have been examined, and no excess cancers were observed through 1974. Other epidemiological studies of lung cancer in uranium mill and metal processing plant workers have found either no excess cancers or attributed them to known carcinogens other than uranium, such as radon."

6) Rationale for GW2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_invasion_of_Iraq#Rationale


 I doubt any of the above links will change, rightly or wrongly anyone's minds on their respective stances. I do have a question however and that is why would the son consider GW1 a failure and a mistake of the father's that needed rectifying?







* In the version published by The New York Times on September 23, 1990, Glaspie expressed concern over the troop buildup, but went on to say:

We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. I was in the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late '60s. The instruction we had during this period was that we should express no opinion on this issue and that the issue is not associated with America. James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via [Chadli] Klibi [then Arab League General Secretary] or via President Mubarak. All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly.
Some have interpreted these statements as signalling a tacit approval of invasion, though no evidence of this has been presented

Offline jester

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #159 on: October 04, 2005, 05:16:56 PM »
I guess after Gitmo and Abu Ghraib the recruiting stations of Al-Quaeda really need bouncers to keep people at bay. Ridding the world (I say for a short time only since they already regroup in Paschtun territories of Pakistan) of the Taliban was a noble endeavour, but everything else just was plain awful. Don't tell me every fledgling democracy struggles. Look at Liberia and tell me how long struggling will last until it finally pays off. Whatever that would mean for us. In the meantime we can only brace ourselves for other good ideas and accomplished missions.

Back at uni I attended a lecture of a guy from the UN who spoke in great detail about how Saddam was first tacitly encouraged and then provoked into pulling it off or loosing his face. I am not saying that we made him do it, but we did everything to make sure he went ahead and did it.

Hands up! Who thinks that Abu Ghraib will really go down in history as one of Saddam's prisons?

I know I am probably repetitive, but I found it quite a charming performance (yeah and Jon was good too):
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/TDS-Iraq-Generals-MCain-10-03-05.mov
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 06:02:21 PM by jester »
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Offline Eral

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #160 on: October 04, 2005, 05:30:30 PM »
I do have a question however and that is why would the son consider GW1 a failure and a mistake of the father's that needed rectifying?
The article I read suggested that Junior wanted to finish the job Dad had begun - that G1 would have done if not for those namby-pamby "no you are not heading over to Baghdad now" softies in the UN. No suggestion that G1 was a failure or had made a mistake.
Oh and by the way, that article is spot on.But I think any detailed response should be in another thread.



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Offline Regullus

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #161 on: October 04, 2005, 06:19:16 PM »
Jester - Of course, Saddam Hussein had no role in his own or his country's downfall.  It really does smack of condescension those type of statements. Just out of curiousity, what would, in anyone's opinion, be the benefit for Saddam Hussein, of all leaders, to be in control of 20% of the world's oil, and on the border of SA? With a ton of money and flush with victory?

 Who benefits? Wall Street? The US? The US military-industrial complex, after all the US is the biggest arms exporter in the world, oops, no, so in order to reclaim its status as the world's biggest arms exporter? Quite possibly. I don't claim to know, you might.  :)

 On to the prisons, I'll be frank, the only prison's name I know in Iraq is Abu Ghraib, you might know all the names. I would hazard a guess and say there might be a prison named Saddam Hussein's National Prison. How many people do you think (outside of Iraqis, Kurds, and Iranians) will actually ever remember any prison in Iraq other than Abu Ghraib?

 Out of curiosity, what society, ideals, historical figures do you think SH tried to emulate?

 Eral - Heh. ;D


 Jester Again - I would love to view your link but I have dial up! :( >:( :(

 

 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 06:25:49 PM by Regullus »

Offline jester

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #162 on: October 04, 2005, 06:51:14 PM »
As for the prisons: That is exactly my point! Saddam was a well known bastard back in the good old days when Germany sold him gas erm I mean agricultural stuff to use against Iran, Rummy shock his hands and we knew that all we had to do was kill the reds. He was not 'our' friend, but he was something of an ally in the big picture.

The problem I have with this is right up to that point we had a moral case. But if the only thing that tells me who is some thug or who is a government official torturing a prisoner is a piece of clothing, then we might loose a big underlying case we should have been trying to make to win over the moderate Islam world.  Let's just say that if a government denies you all means of legal defense within its system, defense beyond legality might be your only option.

Those who argue that Saddam had to be removed, because he had to be removed, because he had to be removed could probalby cough up a list of several other unfriendly people who should no longer be plaguing this world.

The reason GB senior didn't kill SH is that a state comprising of three different factions with centrifugal tendencies would be indeed contagious for the region but rather like a powder keg than anything else. Turkey and Iran don't want an independent Kurdish state, Shiites will seek refuge or at least backing by the only other Shiite state, Iran, the now toppled Sunnites are caught inbetween, but have enough Sunnite powers to back up their struggle for dominance. So you want all that oil in the hands of quarreling tribesman and rival religious fanatics?

Bordering SA? Are you kidding me? SA is a kingdom where most of the 9/11 bombers came from. Your 'filthy boots on holy ground' is a big part of Al-Quaeda propaganda. So if the military presence in the region did anything to prevent the rise of terrorism. I fail to see it.

@ Out of curiosity, what society, ideals, historical figures do you think SH tried to emulate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

perhaps even : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

Note: Godwin's law does not apply!
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Offline Regullus

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #163 on: October 04, 2005, 08:55:23 PM »
@Godwin's Law: I thought Godwin's law had to do with Hitler? I was referring to Saladin (Kinda ironic because he's a Kurd  and everyone wants to deny the Kurds their homeland and he's a great Arab hero) and Stalin. Does Godwin's Law refer to Stalin? My bad.

 
As for the prisons: That is exactly my point!

 So we agree.

Bordering SA? Are you kidding me? SA is a kingdom where most of the 9/11 bombers came from. Your 'filthy boots on holy ground' is a big part of Al-Quaeda propaganda. So if the military presence in the region did anything to prevent the rise of terrorism. I fail to see it.

 I was referencing Glapsie/GW1 and the US's alleged tacit approval to invade Kuwait. Again, SH's troops. Some would argue that OBL's goal is not to topple the US but to topple SA and other regimes, mainly SA.
 
 

Offline jester

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #164 on: October 05, 2005, 03:20:49 AM »
@ Some would argue that OBL's goal is not to topple the US but to topple SA and other regimes, mainly SA.

I would agree to that definitely and it is a regime worth toppling anyway.

@Godwin's Law: I forgot the :P and no sane person (and I believe dictators with a certain lifespan are very sane) would officially aspire to be Stalin. 'Oderint dum metuant'('Let them hate (me), so long as they fear (me)') was a phrase I once read about a Roman dictator I mean emperor.

I definitely agree to the irony in this Saladin situation, but no Arab leader can let go of the 'recaptured Jerusalem and beat the bloody crusaders' idea. :D
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 04:55:52 AM by jester »
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Offline Regullus

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Re: Pre-emptive condolences on the upcoming destruction of New Orleans.
« Reply #165 on: October 05, 2005, 09:32:23 AM »
@Godwin's Law: I forgot the :P and no sane person (and I believe dictators with a certain lifespan are very sane) would officially aspire to be Stalin. 'Oderint dum metuant'('Let them hate (me), so long as they fear (me)') was a phrase I once read about a Roman dictator I mean emperor.

 Personally I think the mustache, the statues, posters,and the bios and histories of Stalin is kinda a giveaway. Everyone thinks that they will be one that gets it all. "I won't make the same mistakes, my story will be the greatest Evar!" Wasn't that Caligula?

  :P