Why rangers have free dual-wielding?

[Borsook]

What's the connection here? Cause to me it seems pretty arbitrary. But maybe someone with bigger knowledge will enlighten me?

[SimDing0™]

Drizzt.

[NiGHTMARE]

They had it before Drizzt existed.

[SimDing0™]

So it really is completely arbitrary? I love PnP.

[Caedwyr]

Yeah, that one has always somewhat confused me.  Even with the kit description, there really isn't much that would make me think of rangers having high skill in dual wielding.

[jester]

I think, if you are not Strider then the plain ranger is in for major suckage (at least in CPRGs). They are like paladins without the saving throws or fighters who can charm a beast or two on their travels, but cannot Gm any weapon. So they had to throw in something.

[Borsook]

Well, balance reasons are ok... though honestly I'd rather associate rangers with single or two-handed weapon.

[NiGHTMARE]

Personally, I think fighters should be allowed to place 5 points only in melee weapons, and rangers 5 points in ranged weapons .

[CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD]

They had it before Drizzt existed.

You're full of shit.

Progression:

Drow are introduced. Drow are detailed as having dual wielding capabilities due to their natural dexterity.

Drizzt is introduced. Drizzt is a Ranger with dual wielding capabilities due to being a Drow.

Rules are revised. Rangers now have dual wielding capabilities.

[jcompton]

The best information I can find suggests that Crystal Shard (Drizzt's debut) predates the publication of 2nd edition (which formalized ranger dual-wielding) by about a year. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that Salvatore wasn't inspired by some obscure Dragon article, or maybe even had some sort of information that such a rule change was coming. But it certainly fits the facts that Drizzt is indeed the reason for ranger dual-wielding.

[NiGHTMARE]

Sorry, but your timeline is flawed.  It fails to take into account the large number of DMs who were using home-brewed dual-wielding in their 1st edition sessions long before the first Drizzt novel was published in 1988.  Also, it ignores the fact we had a ranger who was fond of dual-wielding before D&D itself existed, in the form of Aragorn.  Plus if the D&D designers really did want to created a Drizzt-based class, 2E rangers wouldn't be able to cast spells.

BTW why the childish and utterly pointless obscenity?

[Borsook]

Any examples of dual-wielding Aragorn? To my mind only come those scenes with sword/torch in "off-hand", which hardly means "dual-wielding", but maybe I've forgotten something.

[NiGHTMARE]

He was using the torch as a weapon, which counts as dual-wielding in my book.

EDIT: work on 2nd Edition D&D began the year before the first Drizzt novel came out, and I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Salvatore adopted the dual-wielding idea from the 2E design notes.

[Borsook]

He was using the torch as a weapon, which counts as dual-wielding in my book.

EDIT: work on 2nd Edition D&D began the year before the first Drizzt novel came out, and I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Salvatore adopted the dual-wielding idea from the 2E design notes.

Yes, to some extend, but it just one instance and a situation with a kind of special circumstances, he wasn't carrying a second weapon thus I wouldn't say it was his favourite way of fighting, rather the opposite, like in case of D&D mechanics a character specialising in single weapon combat can use two weapons on "once-in-the-lifetime" situation.

[jester]

Isn't the blonde guy dual wielding something. I thought elves are by default mage-priest-ranger combos.

[Borsook]

Isn't the blonde guy dual wielding something. I thought elves are by default mage-priest-ranger combos.

Are you talking about Legolas?? If yes you mean the movie which could not influence D&D... BTW He should have have black hair as all Tolkien's elves (exept for 1 "family")

[NiGHTMARE]

Actually, while in the LoTR novels Legolas' hair colour is never mentioned, the Hobbit features his father King Thranduil... who is described as having "golden hair".

[Borsook]

Actually, while in the LoTR novels Legolas' hair colour is never mentioned, the Hobbit features his father King Thranduil... who is described as having "golden hair".

In Silmarillion Tolkien states that all Elves have dark hair, exept, in I remember ok, Finarfin's people. Hobbit was a book for children and is many points inconsistent with later works.

[SimDing0™]

Actually, while in the LoTR novels Legolas' hair colour is never mentioned, the Hobbit features his father King Thranduil... who is described as having "golden hair".

I really do wonder how the hell you remember all this stuff.

[jester]

So do I, but then again my memories are flawed by all the merchandizing mugs and freebies.

[NiGHTMARE]

I really do wonder how the hell you remember all this stuff.

www.google.com .

[CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD]

Sorry, but your timeline is flawed.  It fails to take into account the large number of DMs who were using home-brewed dual-wielding in their 1st edition sessions long before the first Drizzt novel was published in 1988.

Even if you could back this up, and I'm betting you can't, houserules are completely irrelevant. Considering the gross exaggeration of your next claim I'm betting that you're pulling this out of your ass anyway.

Also, it ignores the fact we had a ranger who was fond of dual-wielding before D&D itself existed, in the form of Aragorn.

Others have called you out on this one-- using a goddam torch in your offhand out of desperation once over the course of three books doesn't really make him 'fond of dual wielding', now does it? This is so obscure it's just sad.

BTW why the childish and utterly pointless obscenity?

Because you deserve it.

[Drew]

Actually, Drizzt was used as an example of how all drow dual wield.  He learned to dual wield as a fighter, not a ranger.  Also, in 2e any warrior or rogue with an 17 or 18 dex can dual wield with a small weapon in his off hand with only modest penalties.  He needn't be a ranger or even have extra proficiencies. Any warrior or rogue with a dexterity of 15 or less gets -2,-4.  If his dexterity is 16 the penalty is -1,-3.  For 17 or 18 dex the penalty is -0,-2.  19 or 20 dex means -0, -1.  21 dex or higher means free dual wielding with no penalties. 

So, why could Drizzt dual wield?  His dex was 20.  He could do it for free with almost no penalties anyway.  (Whether in light armor or not!)
Why could he wield 2 large weapons with no penalties?  Because he was Drow.  (In 2e all drow could dual wield with 2 large weapons for free)
What the hell did Drizzt get out of being a Ranger anyway in 2e?  Charm animal.  And that -1 penalty he got in his off hand was negated if he wore studded leather or lighter.  But didn't he always wear chain mail?

For my source.........page 96 of my 2e players handbook.  (The section entitled Attacking with Two Weapons)
                            page 14 of the same book.  (Table 2)


Bottom line: NIGHTMARE was right on this one. (But I have to agree he kind of pulled the Aragorn thing out his ass. )

[SimDing0™]

Regardless of deservedness, can we try to PLAY NICE IN THE SANDBOX? (Otherwise it makes it harder for me to go to other sites and tell them how to run their forums!)

[domi_ash]

In Silmarillion Tolkien states that all Elves have dark hair, exept, in I remember ok, Finarfin's people. Hobbit was a book for children and is many points inconsistent with later works.

Damn, I don't remeber much of this stuff, but I think that Vanyar, one of the three nations that departed to Valinor (Vanya, Teleri and Noldo) were all fair. Between Noldori, Galadriel is fair-haired. Among Moriquendi, yes, dark hair is prevalent. Legolas is a Sindari, probably part Nandori, judging from his name 'Lego-las' (has the same root as Laiquendi - green elves)...