Author Topic: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...  (Read 11886 times)

Offline Xiao

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PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« on: April 07, 2005, 09:23:53 AM »
(Semi-spoilery below, though only for fairly early on in the game, and a little BG2 spoilerage as well.)

I keep reading these praise-filled reviews of Planescape: Torment.  Supposedly it's the epitome of RPGs, an amazing piece of work.  I love RPGs!  I replay ones with not a hell of a lot of replay options (c.f. KotOR1) just because I loved the story.

I bought PST a few years back, finally caving in and deciding to see if it was as cool as the reviewers had said.  I think this is now my third attempt at playing, and it's the farthest I've gotten - and I'm only at the part where I met the guy who I learned I must go see for answers.  Whatever the hell his name is - you see how uninteresting I'm finding this?  Ph-something.

Out of sheer stubborness, I decided to try to finish it, at least to see if it gets better.  I figure it must be me, right?  How could it get that many rave reviews otherwise?  Plus I was semi-inspired by JC's "Jasonscape: Torment" story in the fanfic forum, as well as a recent thread on great voice acting - the cast is amazing, frankly.  (Side note: I find it vaguely appropriate that Morte would be harassing Jason - perhaps karmic payback for creating a character that took away a lot of Anomen's ladies?)

Maybe it's because the thing that frustrates me most about RPGs is when you run into the characters who pull the "I have all this information about you/your quest/whatever, but I'm not going to tell you that info or explain why" stunt.  I. Freaking. Hate. It.  Hell, my first play-through of BG2, I booted Yoshimo out of the party after his second "oh, I'm not so sure about this" commentary after the latest quest from Aran Linvail.  Put up or shut up.  Imagine my surprise when a couple games later, I finally heard that you were kind of supposed to be taking him to Spellhold with you, and after doing so, I figured out how you could get out of there without telling Immy to find her own way, or - as I did it - leaving someone behind.  (Sorry, Nalia.  Not my fault you didn't just tag along behind the group, right?  Stupid game limitations...)  Back to PST: Even a woman who addresses you as her "love", after she gets past her bitterness at whatever the hell it was you did (she won't tell you that, either), won't cough up any real info on what the fuck you are, why you're here, who she is, and so on.  Even random people that you meet who have seen you before have little more to say.  Yeah, yeah, it's part of the plot.  Fine, so the purpose of the plot is to drive me into an insane rage and make me want to throttle all these people who have nothing better to do than tease an amnesiac with vague hints.

I've commented before that I've had trouble getting under the Nameless One's skin, so to speak.  Admittedly I rarely play male characters in RPGs, but that's because these days I actually have an option to play a female, typically, so I take it.  I also feel more comfortable interacting on a more personal level with other characters as a woman.  Yes, yes, I'm really a human and have never been a drow/elf/robot/whatever, either - indulge me, here.  The game creators aren't making this easy on me, though.  Apparently he's got a thing for tattooing, self-mutilation, and so forth.  I have a piercing in each earlobe that I wish would grow shut, and nothing else in the way of body modification; Mr. Nameless here has, in the course of exploring the main quad of the city, bitten off his own finger and replaced it with a bone (capping that off with a toothed ring that bit in and won't come off, and getting the bone and finger in exchange for letting someone else gnaw off hunks of his flesh), gouged out his own perfectly good eye and replaced it with a previous version of his eye, had his intestines ripped out - and not replaced - just to find a wimpy ring, and has now found a former arm of his, suggesting that perhaps some other major parts of his aren't exactly "factory originals" either.

And now, of course, I'm getting a Memento association from this tattooed instructions on an amnesiac thing - yes, I know the game predates the movie by a year.  I'm assuming full-length mirrors aren't all that common in Sigil - else I'd have checked things out for myself already - so I'm just going to believe there's a perfectly good reason that theoretical tattooed instructions for myself would be on my back and not in backwards script (for mirrored viewing, of course) and slog through the game until I find it.  This film connection isn't helped by getting a vague Joe Pantoliano vibe off Morte, in voice and in potential role. ;D

Pray for me, because I think I'll need it.

Offline jester

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2005, 02:47:55 PM »
Spare yourself the pain.  :P Get a nice walkthrough at www.gamebanshee.com or www.gamefaqs.com and just read up on what you could have done. As a bonus you get much faster to the point where you can complain about stuff in the Civic Festhall, Lothar's hairdo or the old hag's mating habits. Sure you cannot play a feamle drow, but IWD and BG2 won't let you do it either. A little bit of retro spirit helps to see beyond the many improvements and evolutionary quantum leaps you have come to love in newer games. (Even going from Kotor to BG2 should be quite a letdown.) :D

Then again there are some who come to cherish the simpler pleasures in life.
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Offline Ashara

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2005, 03:34:18 PM »
What kind of a game is that that you need to play it with a walkthrough at hand, in order not to screw up irrevocably and miserably?

do not get me started on the white lady of ghostly love. Is there is one character I was more irritated about, it was Morte. Interestingly enough, by an inconcievable designer's whim, Morte is the NPC you have to drag around for the whole game. You can't part. It's the part of the price you have to pay for playing this wonderous, marvelous, mind-blowing RPG.

The greatness just refuses to seep in and overwhelm in my case. I do not like the dialogues. I abhor the main character's appearance and the self-mutilation for teh sake of knowing thyself streak.

I tried to redo the game for a female PC, in a desperate attempt to feel more kinship with the MainChar, but so far did not have time to do it.
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
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There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
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Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline jester

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2005, 04:01:54 PM »
If anybody then you can pull it off. ;) But you misread my post. There is enough info around to keep people who do not like the basic assumptions of PST from playing it. I suggested to read the walkthrough instead of endure the ordeal that PST is to so many gamers. So she can find out what 'would have happened' with little to no hassle.


@ inconcievable designer's whim: You mean something along the idea that I have to hunt down a girl I already ditched in Beregost way back or the druid who is forced upon me everytime I start BG2? :P

Minor Spoiler IWD2 perhaps:





I felt deeply disappointed that I was not allowed to side with the Legion of Chimera. An army of the outcast, the poor, weary and downtrodden. Count me in!. No, count me out, 'cause the damn game won't let me. :( I can play a priest of Bane and still I cannot switch sides? This is one of the lamest plots ever, but then again it let's me play as a drow ranger/bard/sorceror. So there must be something good in it after all
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Offline Ashara

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2005, 04:31:30 PM »
@ inconcievable designer's whim: You mean something along the idea that I have to hunt down a girl I already ditched in Beregost way back or the druid who is forced upon me everytime I start BG2?

At least you could happily ditch these two and play on w/o them. Morte, I am told, you have to bring along no matter what.
Hang in there. I'll try to make you glad you did.
—George R.R. Martin

There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline jester

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2005, 05:40:27 PM »
So you mean I can forget about Imoen and not go to Spellhold? I'd love to do that just once.

IIRC you do not require any NPCs to finish PST. Not unlike with Aran or Elhan you need at a certain point some NPCs for the advancement of the story, but you cannot kill Hrothgar either.

My favourite thing about PST is the implementation of alignment changes according to your actions which has not been attempted again all the way up to Fable and Kotor AFAIK. (Virtue doesn't count for the game companies!)
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Offline Xiao

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2005, 05:43:49 PM »
Anyone remember how I talk to my groupmates?  Morte told me about it not long after we started, but hell if I remember... sigh.

And what the hell is the deal with not having any armor?  I picked fighter as a class!

Offline Faust

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2005, 05:53:26 PM »
To talk to an NPC, there's a dialogue icon you'll need to pinpoint to when focusing on a NPC.

I'm fairly certain you are not required to keep Morte in your party to finish the game. You may have to have him to get out of the opening sequence, but I'm not even certain that's the case. Regardless, you can remove him early on. You will miss out on a couple things and he ends up being a fascinating character, but its not essential or game breaking to remove him.

I liked PST. The story, characters, and world took a while for me to get use to . However, upon giving it time, I was captivated bby the very things that initially appeared alien to me (i.e. the scarred protagonist, the slightly bizarre dialogue, and the wacky world of Sigil).  So, I remain one of those who felt it was an exceptional RPG. I certainly have no trouble understanding why it doesn't appeal to everyone, though. Beyond being somewhat dated, the game is very different from the typical D&D fantasy type RPGs that many of us play in terms of story and gameplay. Obviously, having a predetermined central character, a very foreign setting, and having a game that is more about dialogue and discovery, rather than combat and strategy, will distance certain mindsets.

Offline Xiao

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2005, 06:04:48 PM »
To talk to an NPC, there's a dialogue icon you'll need to pinpoint to when focusing on a NPC.
Yeah, but that's not working.  I choose my character, I pick dialogue off the radial menu, I click Morte to talk to him... and I switch to having Morte as the selected character.  I can talk with NPCs just fine, just not party members - and I know I talked to Morte early on after he gave me instructions on how to do so.

Quote
I liked PST. The story, characters, and world took a while for me to get use to . However, upon giving it time, I was captivated bby the very things that initially appeared alien to me (i.e. the scarred protagonist, the slightly bizarre dialogue, and the wacky world of Sigil).  So, I remain one of those who felt it was an exceptional RPG. I certainly have no trouble understanding why it doesn't appeal to everyone, though. Beyond being somewhat dated, the game is very different from the typical D&D fantasy type RPGs that many of us play in terms of story and gameplay. Obviously, having a predetermined central character, a very foreign setting, and having a game that is more about dialogue and discovery, rather than combat and strategy, will distance certain mindsets.
Well, I'm not sure the points you bring up entirely apply to me.
- Dated? I played BG1 all the way through (OK, stopping at that stupid maze right before Sarevok) late last year/early this year.  I play BG2 frequently.
- More about dialogue and discovery instead of combat and strategy?  I love that.  I have played BG2 with a mess of romance/new NPC mods just to meet new characters and/or see them in different combinations together.  Heck, I'm going to be running through with a party that includes Keto, Haer'Dalis, Aerie, Kelsey, maybe Viconia, and myself just to see the Keto-HD-Aerie and Keto-Viconia interactions - and typically I far prefer tank-heavy parties.  At this point I wish I could skip all that annoying combat stuff and just see the characters talk.  Heck, I set a lot of scripts just so I wouldn't have to screw around so much with combat.  In MMORPGs I'm the one who RPs (not too much!), spends hours on tradeskills to outfit guildmates, and tracks down obscure quests/info even if it doesn't go anywhere, just so I can learn more.

I don't know what it is.  Everything I read screams to me "you will love this game!"  Then I actually play the game, and I wonder what cool game that was everyone else talks about, because surely this isn't it.

Offline Silk

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2005, 08:50:02 PM »
It's all a matter of taste.  If it's any consolation, I didn't like PST much either and never finished it.  On the same note (and I know NWN is not included in this thread) everyone screamed at me "you'll love it".  I hated it. 'Nuff said.

Also, although I played IWD through to the end, I didn't much like that either.  For richness of gameplay, plotlines and characters, give me either of the BG series every time.
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Offline Xiao

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2005, 10:02:46 PM »
Well, Morte is talking to me again.  I don't know why it wasn't working; perhaps it was something about the area, or a game bug or something.  (Yes, I have the 4-CD version.  Yes, I patched it.)  I've run into that before, in that the woman in the obelisk area who wants revenge for her 3 sisters was un-converseable as well for quite some time.

At least Sheena Easton's finally joined my group.  :P

Offline Xiao

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2005, 08:01:45 AM »
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention - last night I found out why the instructional tattoos were on the Nameless One's back.  Apparently, it's just to hide a "don't trust the skull" line from you until later in the game.  You know, if that turns out to really be the actual reason - no further layers of deception or anything - then that's just fucking pointless.  I mean really, why the hell would anyone who needed to put some really important information on their body in that kind of setting have it done on their back, where they are reliant on someone else - like oh, say the very person it's warning against - to convey that information to them?  Geez, I'd have that last line tattooed somewhere that I could see but Morte probably wouldn't, like near my groin or something.  The rest of it would go on my chest or abdomen, hopefully upside-down so I could read it easily from my vantage point.

Offline jester

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2005, 08:05:34 AM »
I think finding out inconsistencies is the best part of every game, but find the journal which noone can read, the key to unlock the dreams you never had and the reason you cannot remember anything about your past and a path to many answers will be open.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 09:01:15 AM by jester »
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Offline Ashara

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2005, 10:09:21 AM »
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention - last night I found out why the instructional tattoos were on the Nameless One's back.  Apparently, it's just to hide a "don't trust the skull" line from you until later in the game.  You know, if that turns out to really be the actual reason - no further layers of deception or anything - then that's just fucking pointless.  I mean really, why the hell would anyone who needed to put some really important information on their body in that kind of setting have it done on their back, where they are reliant on someone else - like oh, say the very person it's warning against - to convey that information to them?  Geez, I'd have that last line tattooed somewhere that I could see but Morte probably wouldn't, like near my groin or something.  The rest of it would go on my chest or abdomen, hopefully upside-down so I could read it easily from my vantage point.

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There is nothing better than imagining other worlds [...] to forget the painful one we live in. At least so I thought then. I hadn't yet realized that, imagining other worlds, you end up changing this one.
-Umberto Eco, Baudolino

Three mods you shall make - one too bad and one to dread and one to love.

Offline Xiao

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2005, 12:14:05 PM »
I have one embarrassing admission to make, though...

I kind of like Morte.  Voice included.

It's probably because I like Rob Paulsen's work and this time around, I know who the voice actor is.  Plus I'm now even more strongly getting the "Teddy G. (Joe Pantoliano) in Memento" vibe off him.  (If you've seen the film, you'll know why, and the voice is similar.)

I'm so ashamed...

Offline belboz

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2005, 01:42:37 PM »
IIRC, the reason the tatoos were on your back (trying not to give too much away) is that the person who put them there was a bit of a nutjob.

I liked PST quite a bit, but two things to note about it:

1. I don't think this was the problem *you* were having with it, but it's really not an RPG. It's a graphical adventure game with some RPG elements. It's not just "plot over combat", it's "plot over any kind of conventional development of your character". Gaining levels and skills is important for the few battle sequences, and INT, WIS, and CHA are important for opening up parts of the plot, but that's about it.  I too found it a bit weird that there are apparently no working armorers in Sigil, but you don't really *need* armor, even if you are playing as a fighter.

2. It starts out pretty slowly. The beginning is actually better on a second play through, because you'll notice things that were actually clever bits of foreshadowing. But the first time you play, the game is slow until you get to the Upper Ward, and doesn't *really* start getting interesting until you leave Sigil. This is a real flaw in the game design, IMO.

Not to say you'll love it at that point; there's just a better chance.

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2005, 06:09:00 AM »
Well I liked PS:T.  It is a matter of preferrance.  And I'd played it so many times that I just can't quite play it with the same enthusiasm anymore.  But, IIRC, it doesn't do anything that other games don't, if that makes sense.  But it does do quite a few things differently.

You're playing a scripted story.  There will always be limitations in that.

Fighting was hell, but the story was excellent.  The other thing I (now) appreciate about the game is there is no 1/2 hour of rifling thru your inventory.

You are more than a fighter, actually.  Oh, and you have no armor because you can't die.  ;)

Morte is esstential to the story because he is the one who has been with you all along.  From that perspective, you will lose out if you don't keep him in the party.  But if I say more, I may spoil you more than you want to be spoiled.  Suffices to say that more will be revealed.  The ending, for me, was the clincher.

And there's a few patches you can d/l for the game here: http://www.planescape-torment.org/  They are user fixes but work fine.
(but the only thing I patched, at the time, was Morte's incessant "I haven't had this much fun since.. the last time.")
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 06:55:39 AM by Cybersquirt »
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2005, 06:52:53 AM »
1. I don't think this was the problem *you* were having with it, but it's really not an RPG. It's a graphical adventure game with some RPG elements. It's not just "plot over combat", it's "plot over any kind of conventional development of your character". Gaining levels and skills is important for the few battle sequences, and INT, WIS, and CHA are important for opening up parts of the plot, but that's about it. 
INT WIS and CHA are important to dialogue, at least, throughout the game.

And not to veer too far off topic, but... uhm... It's not an RPG?  The game was unconventional to be sure, which is probably why it gets such mixed reviews, but I've never heard it described as a graphical adventure game.  ? 

(and Ashara, if you are who I think you are, you stay outta this.  :D   BTW, you do realize that if you make Nameless a female, you'd have to make them BiSexual else you severely change the story.  ;D)
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Offline Xiao

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2005, 12:23:56 PM »
OK, I'm beginning to see the interest in the story here - only after finally making it to the Festhall's Private Sensorium.  If I weren't as stubborn as I am - and as inclined to make liberal use of a walkthrough to keep me from tearing my hair out - there is absolutely no way I'd have made it this far.

Still, I'm now beginning to see the parallels I can draw between myself and the Nameless One, after going through such loathing and sheer frustration to figure out the puzzle.  Not that this enlightens me, mind you.

Offline jester

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2005, 12:40:57 PM »
I think PST is great walkthrough territory, because after your first runthrough or tries at several problems you might be amazed about the many new untried options for the chalice from the palace which you do not find out unless you keep a meticulous journal of your stats, dialogues and actions. Then again I am obsessed with critical path methods and solutions I just could not think about and very lazy at the same time. ;) :D.
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Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2005, 01:18:51 PM »
The only thing I remember getting stuck on was not carrying junk (to open that portal).  The only thing I remember missing (on the first 3 playthru's) was the cobblestone from the Post, and the Bronze Sphere   ::)

But I rarely use a walkthru on the first play of a game.  It ruins too much for me.  And I certainly didn't use one for PS.  I just played it a dozen times.  But these days I understand lazy; I just call it time-challenged.  ;)

Xiao - did you buy yourself a Lim-Lim yet?  ;D

And enlightenment is a slow process in this game.  I hate to do this (compare this game to KotOR), but it's like Kotor1, where you're someone who's been there before but you (PC and player) don't know it.

Amnesiatic immortal.  How cool is that?   :D

The other thing I remember loving about that game is the detailed conversations between NPC's.  Not necessarily the party NPCs, those were good but few.  The exchance between Grace and Fjull comes to mind.   :)
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Offline Xiao

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2005, 02:15:02 PM »
Yes!  I have a Lim-Lim, I let him run around and play now and then, and pet him. ;D

I needed a walkthrough to get this far, though I'll note I don't know anything about the game past where I'm at.  I finally got Nordom and defeated the "evil wizard" - Nordom was in - honest! - the very last room in that goddamned maze.  Argh...

Offline Cybersquirt

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2005, 04:14:25 PM »
LOL.  I hated that maze.

And Lim-Lims are quite handy, as well as cute.  ;)
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2005, 04:36:00 PM »
I never got to the maze, but that's okay, because I preferred the toy anyways.  I was sad when I had to give it up to the pillar of skulls (which was quite bizarre, for someone who'd never played the game before).
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Offline jester

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Re: PST - Set in Sigil, but I'm in Hell...
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2005, 05:51:19 PM »
I only used a walkthrough through my third game as I pissed off the Lady of Pain and got mazed, but then I just tracked back on many options I had not tried before like switching classes to gain certain quests and items. The cobblestone from the zombie is useless IIRC the bronze sphere is anything but. :D

The Modron-maze is fun soloing when you cannot beat the constructs and have to do a fair bit of running to reach the mage construct. By fun I mean very tedious as I spend weeks in there just trying to remember the right combination (Aaargh).
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

 

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