Author Topic: Brainstorming Time  (Read 9203 times)

Offline SimDing0™

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Brainstorming Time
« on: March 08, 2005, 10:59:06 AM »
Yay!

While working away on v2, I've also been contemplating possible future components. One thing that's always bothered me somewhat is the quests that you do for Aran and Bodhi before going to Brynnlaw. I found them very dull, and once I'd gone through the game once, they became one of those things alongside Irenicus' dungeon and dream sequences that I was dreading having to sit through.

Therefore, I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on ways to improve Aran and Bodhi's tasks. I'm not promising anything, because hey, I've got a ton of stuff planned anyway, but it can't do any harm to gather some ideas. So, please, fire away. :)

MitchMc

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2005, 04:46:06 PM »
Are you more interested in tactical changes to make them more challenging or more plot related stuff?

Cheers
mitch

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2005, 08:09:04 AM »
Plot-related stuff, please. :)

MitchMc

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2005, 10:42:36 PM »
Plot related, hmmmmm I was afraid you would say that.
 
The reason that I find the quests so dull is that, with the exception of improved bodhi, they are so simple and dull…. “Go kill a minor level character and return…”

 Anyhow if you are going to add some  plot/adventures then I would suggest that you add another new quest.

 Perhaps off to trademeet to interact with a thieves guild there.  If the player sided with the shadow thieves then you could be sent to enlist their help or find out why they have dropped out of contact. If you side with bodhi you could show up to kill off Gaylin Bayle  in the slums, kill every one, find out that he is not there, but find a letter from the thieves guild in trademeet, then go off to track him down.

Or a new quest with new characters. Who ever you side with can  send you off to enlist the help of a powerful mage or obtain an item from a monster or what ever.

. It seems to me that this might be the easiest to produce keeping the modifications to existing characters to a minimum. This also gives you the greatest freedom/flexibility



So whats your preference modify existing quests or come up with new ones ?


Cheers
Mitch Mc
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 04:43:18 PM by MitchMc »

Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2005, 06:48:59 AM »
Whatever you do, please don't involve any more Linvail relations! We've already got three children of Aran (Sime in Tortured Souls, Abagail in the Chloe mod, and Khadion) and his mother (in the Fade mod) :D

Then again, a nagging wife could provide some humour... ;)
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Offline Silk

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2005, 06:58:03 AM »
Yes, by the time you've managed to defeat Firekraag, Aran's quests seem like a walk in the park.  It's nearly 1am so I'm short on ideas right now but I'll give it some thought.  Definitely the first two need to be more challenging.

(Sorry, I always side with the Thieves)
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Offline Eral

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2005, 05:05:06 AM »
For the Thieves:
1. When you go down to the docks to see Mook, what about actually seeing/foiling the vampires interfering with the Shadow thieves smuggling? (Before or after Lassal kills Mook.)
 Maybe Brega could stage a raid on the Shadow Thieves at the same time.
2. When sent off to find Jaylos and Caehan, could you be accepted by Gracen, see J + C get taken away by vampires for mysterious purposes, and then fight off Gracen/vampires?
3. You are targeted by thieves in Bodhi's employ who seem to know your movements in advance. Yoshimo seems strangely shaken by the death of one in particular.

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Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2005, 05:10:28 AM »
2. When sent off to find Jaylos and Caehan, could you be accepted by Gracen, see J + C get taken away by vampires for mysterious purposes, and then fight off Gracen/vampires?
I actually implemented something whereby you convince Gracen that you're the defectors, and meet him down in Bodhi's lair, by which point Bodhi's told him who you are, so he just attacks you. Seeing as it just extended what should have been the best path to be more tiresome and involve more area changing, it didn't receive terribly positive responses from testers, and so the code's commented out.

Offline fallen demon

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2005, 06:04:35 PM »
Are you looking for new quests or just ways to improve the existing ones? 

I always found how Bohdi just asks if you want to do a good or evil quest kind of silly, for two reasons:  1) A vampires definitions of good and evil would probably differ from a character who is actually given a good alignment. 2) many (most?) evil characters are self-motivated, and she offers no reason to take the evil path, other than restating your alignment choice, which imo isn't very good rp'ing

While the quests are easy to complete, maybe if there were different ways to complete the quests, some of which are 'better', rewarding more xp and requiring a shorter path to complete the guild war.  (ex. make it possible but difficult to save Mook, but if you do you'll get some useful info if you do.  Or maybe you could infiltrate a smaller guild that's run by the opposing side, and you'll be able to either just slaughter everyone, or take your time to figure some things out)
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Offline Acrux

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2005, 08:14:49 AM »
Something that's been bothering me:

We've got a coastal town heavily involved in trade and a docks section, and yet the impact of living by the sea is never really explored that much. Yes, there are some dialogues about slaver's using ships, and a ship is used to transport you in one major quest, but beyond that there's not much there.

What about the fishermen who live off the sea? Or a shipwright's shop down in the docks? Or even local legends and histories about the local waters. These kinds of mythos would have a huge impact on the people living there. I think there is a lot of fodder in these directions for several possible quests.

Offline rreinier

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2005, 05:00:13 AM »
Or, even better, a quest a la the Werewolf Island in BGI. That's always been one of my favourites (TotSC rocks in every aspect, almost more so than BG itself). If we're being sent halfway across the country on quests, why not out to sea as well?

Offline Da_venom

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2005, 07:49:35 AM »
well can't there be an option that you can betray bodhi or the thieves?

that would be some funny work

even the game say's so you can betray one but i've never been able to do that

;) and i wanna do that some badly ;)

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2005, 10:01:16 AM »
What you are looking for here is extreme replayability, since you have to do this every time you play.
So you want lots of varied choices and outcomes, not just big fights. Equally, just some intruiging plot is not enough, since it will get old soon.
Something like the 'hunt for boo' quest would be pretty good, i reckon, since you get varied rewards (even if they are a touch excessive) and lots of RP'ing in the dialogues.

Having said that, I can't think of any really good ideas. The only thing I can think of is that you hunt for components across amn, or just athkatla. You wouldn't need all of them, so each playthrough you can go after different ones. To get each one you need to employ diplomacy, might or cunning, whatever. Once you get your chosen pieces, you get them assembled into an item/spell, determined by what you bring. The reasons for this are simple- the thieves/vampires want a tool to help win the guild war. You could have them give you the item and go after some of the opposition, or you actually get the thing in chapter6, as spoils from bodhi or as a tool from aran.

Well thats my £0.02.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2005, 10:07:46 AM »
Yeh, I'm a big fan of multiple paths and outcomes, and that's definitely something to aim for in mandatory quests. As far as components go, I rather likely SixOfSpades' idea for Bodhi to have you return to the ruins of Irenicus' dungeon to bring her a component which would ironically be part of the equipment to remove your soul.

I'm quite a big fan of the Werewolf Island too, but right now I'm looking more at adding greater diversity to the missions in chapter 3, as the above poster suggested.

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2005, 02:32:19 AM »
You are probably aware of it, but in case you are not, Cliffette has produced a few nice little quest/flavour encounters in her Every Mod and a Dog package.  You can visit the forum here, but below is the summary of what you will find:

Quote
Every Mod and Dog

Baldur's Gate, Nashkell Carnival: The Great Gazib, embarrassed stoned maidens and Lord Binky the Buffoon.
Baldur's Gate II, Waukeen's Promenade Circus: Kala, depressed ogre maidens, wolfweres, shades and darkness.

Somewhere along the way, we stopped having fun.

'Every Mod and Dog' (aka EMaD) is a WeiDU-based mod that adds a selection of small diversions and sidequests to Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn. Its major aim is to recapture some of the more buoyant and adventurous spirit that was found in the original Baldur's Gate.

None of the components included in this mod will interfere directly with the original game's main plot and all quests are optional. Some of the quests were inspired by the various "Iron Modder" competition themes at the Pocket Plane Group.

Check the readme in the package for details about installation procedures. Have fun!

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Components included in latest version
A Z-Rated Adventure
Originally begun as an attempt to practise Iron modding, this component developed into something rather.. buggy. You meet a woman with a bad hair day and a shocking problem in the Umar Hills wilderness. Help her, and you'll gain a small and quite irritating friend.

The Promise of a Troll
The Iron Modder 4 contest revolved around the theme 'A Broken Promise'. This component introduces the lovelorn troll, Tegenk, whose happiness depends on whether or not you can help him keep his promise. You can find Tegenk in the wilderness in the Druid's Grove.

A Bhaalspawn's Best Friend
Sometimes it just seems as if the world is against you. You've had a tiff with your lover, your childhood best buddy is festering in a cell and you've just had yet another altercation with a thief/vampire/pirate intent on slitting your throat. Sometimes a Bhaalspawn just needs a healthy dose of unconditional love. This component introduces a stray wolf who seems to like following you around. He's quiet, undemanding, and no toilet-training is required. He can be found hiding in the forests surrounding the Temple Ruins.

Character Medley (randomly updated component)
So named because the component name "Random Encounters" has already been taken. This component will add a selection of characters to the game so that your Bhaalspawn will have even more strangers to chat with (or threaten/main/kill as the case may be). The experience/items gained from these quests are so miniscule/useless that the encounters not listed as separate quests. But hopefully they capture the feeling of some of the more bizarre episodes in the original Baldur's Gate. Think of The Great Gazib, and you'll know what I'm talking about.

The character medley in particular looks like something that could fit in the QP.  Of course Cliffette would need to ok this, but I figured that since the Potion Quest was added in, I might as well suggest this package as a source.
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Offline Lasivern

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2005, 04:56:23 AM »
Hmm, offering suggestions - What the hey, I'll take the plunge.

[I don't play Evil, so I can't offer anything on the "siding with Bodhi" angle.]

One of the things you are doing for Aran, with regards to Mook, is protecting a shipment of equipment to be used by the ST in their fight with the Vampires.  So obviously this must be pretty good stuff, focused on fighting the Undead.

One of the lamest bits of cheese in the game currently is that you can get Daystar without a fight, as long as you have someone who can pick a lock - this always bugged me [although I have to admit I often take the sword anyway - it doesn't bug me enough to NOT take it occasionally...]

Following the death of Mook, you scare off Lassal, but nothing [really] is ever heard about the shipment - Aran gives you some stakes at the appropriate time, but nothing else. This pretty anti-climatic, to say the least.

So.... what about making the shipment a real event?  It would include Daystar, the stakes Aran won't just drop on you, and perhaps some Holy water.  [I for one would LOVE to be able to upgrade Daystar BEFORE chapter 6, with the IU mod - this could be a way.] Anything else appropriate for fighting the Undead would be good - the shipment is for exactly that purpose.  Perhaps a scroll or two, Hold Undead, comes to mind.....

After you "lose" both Mook and Lassal, Aran would need you to track down the shipment.  Not knowing where the lair of the Vamps is, you would have to continue on to the "traitors" quest to figure that out.

Iin addition to the location of the rival guild, Gracen could also have a note detailing, or hinting, where the shipment ended up.  Perhaps your scaring off of Lassal interfered with the Vamps getting it back to the tombs - perhaps daylight came and the Vamps had to abandon it somewhere expecting to get it back later....

Now as to the location of the shipment.  I don't know how difficult what I might suggest would be, of course that would control whether or not some, or any, of my ideas are out of whack with modding capabilities....

My first choice would be on a ship.  Either a copy of the one in the slums, or one from BG 1.  The party has to locate the ship [perhaps by talking to sailors/pirates at the docks] and then get to it, enter it, defeat the enemies [Undead of course - the Vamps killed all of the crew so these could be re-animated as something tougher than basic skeletons or zombies] and find the stash.  Getting to the ship could be a challange, perhaps an early meeting with Sahuagin [themselves investigating the shipwreck], Laceadons, Sea Trolls, etc.  Return to Aran and discover that YOU are meant to use the items and deal with the rival guild....

Another location could be placed in the Bridge district, similar to the Tanner's house, with a basement opening onto the river and thus the sea.  Same type of enemies, and perhaps a stakable Vampire [a lesser one] who you have to stake, to get a key from their corpse to get the shipment.  Perhaps stakes are more than just pieces of wood, perhaps they have been blessed/sanctified such that getting one should be important.  IIRC, the Gnome Merchant in Trademeet sells one [which is pretty useless] as do some temples - so perhaps a clue or two indicating that before you head out to the shipment's location, you should get/buy one.... Or Aran could give you ONE, perhaps mentioning that its the only one he has...

After recovering the shipment, the party is ambushed somewhere on the way back to Aran. The Vamps have discovered what has happened and make some effort to intercept the weapons shipment before it can get into the hands of the ST.  Especially if the shipment is held in a new area, the travel time from there, to Aran, can be adjusted such that the party ALWAYS arrives somewhere, on the way back, at night time, to face more desperate Undead.  This can be a somewhat tough battle, since they now have Daystar and whatever else they may have recovered from the shipment...

Making it appear that it is a timed quest might be fun, i.e. that the party has to locate and recover the shipment before the Vamps can get it back to their lair - a little tension, a sense of watching the clock....

It would make winning Daystar something better than sending Yoshimo in to steal it immediately after meeting Gaelen Bayle -  and going back for the Lich in Chapter 6 [or whatever].  Give the Lich something else to guard to make up for him "losing" Daystar [it needn't be an item after all, some gems, jewelry or cash, perhaps].

Anyway, that's what I got off the top of my head.  A valuable prize to be won [by actually fighting for it], perhaps some other trinkets [like the holy water]  at least one good fight [and probably more] and it makes some sense [to me anyway].  :)  With the oceanic aspects, its an opportunity to use different monsters, and perhaps even another sea voyage [with a cut scene etc]. It comes with lots of opportunities for more Undead encounters, "turned" STs and who knows, another "unwinnable" fight with Lassal, to really get the party motivated to take out the creep.  :)

Well, I hope that's food for thought anyway.  :)


Offline jester

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2005, 05:25:26 AM »
I'd say get rid of a lich which is hiding in a tavern (???). It is not very plausible that he would have been undisturbed for all these years, if the sword was so valuable, easy to get and just behind a bar which must be quite frequented being the best spot for a last mug of ale before you hit the road. There are to many liches in this town anyway.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 08:05:50 AM by jester »
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Offline Lasivern

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2005, 01:17:07 PM »
I'd say get rid of a lich which is hiding in a tavern (???). It is not very plausible that he would have been undisturbed for all these years, if the sword was so valuable, easy to get and just behind a bar which must be quite frequented being the best spot for a last mug of ale before you hit the road. There are to many liches in this town anyway.

Yeah, can't argue with any of that.  Liches hiding out in ancient tombs is one thing, but that guy in the bar is sort of .... err, goofy.  I didn't suggest just forgetting about him, or removing him, in my post, because I didn't think that that was an issue that *HAD* to be addressed by the mod under discussion.  :)

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2005, 01:38:05 PM »
I think the argument for why the lich was behind the bar, is that the tomb was there originally, and the city just got built over it.  If you look at the development history of many cities, this isn't a very unusual occurance.  I think for example, that the site of Troy had something like 13 different cities on top of each other.  Rome is similar, as are many of the older cities around.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2005, 01:50:58 PM »
Personally, I'd change it so the secret exit in each of the bars leads to cellars, and the original caves could be found via another secret door in each of those.
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Offline jester

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2005, 03:46:52 PM »
Agreed also to what Caedwyr said, but building on the ruins of an old city is far more likely than on a tomb of a Lich which is very much alive. Just like the Temple of Bhaal in BG it should at leat be difficult to get to and have a lot of empty space that has been pillaged or is just full of decaying artifacts.

I would still love to see a complete sewers system that connects the entire city underground which was the most fun for my sneaky thugs in BG. Flaming fist yourself, you'll never find me. :D

Then you could branch out the misc chambers from the sewers like the one before the Unseeing Eye. Btw apart from the sea troll there are two unused exits. ;)
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Notasophist

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2005, 10:52:18 PM »
SimDing0:

I can't remember if this has been stated before, but do you take quest ideas in Throne of Bhaal?

Offline Mr.WaeseL

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2005, 08:02:34 AM »
Flaming fist yourself

Eeeeeewww

I would like the sewers to be a complete network, though.

Offline SimDing0™

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2005, 07:02:04 PM »
I wonder why I didn't reply to these before. Sorry.

You are probably aware of it, but in case you are not, Cliffette has produced a few nice little quest/flavour encounters in her Every Mod and a Dog package.  You can visit the forum here, but below is the summary of what you will find:
Yeh, I'm aware of these. However, if my understanding is correct, Cliffette's encounters are intended to be largely humorous, whereas I'm known as The One Who Never Smiles. Seriously, though, she seems fine maintaining her own package, so I don't think there's any neccessity for me to stomp down with my appendage of harsh yet moderately incompetent editing.

Hmm, offering suggestions - What the hey, I'll take the plunge.
I certainly like the idea of the shipment being anti-undead equipment rather than just Aran's dinner or something. However, my understanding was that you managed to save the shipment when you fought Lassal. How would the story explain him whisking it away at the last second?
I think if the shipment's stolen, I'd be more inclined to try and tie it in with the existing missions rather than introducing a new tangent of retrieving it. I suspect that extensive cutscening and ocean voyages might be tending towards overkill for such a minor story device, and I'd rather not confuse things by taking the player even more all-over-the-place in this chapter.

I think the argument for why the lich was behind the bar, is that the tomb was there originally, and the city just got built over it.
When I'm trying to convince myself that Bioware would never be so lazy as to place a high-level encounter in a senseless place without explanation, this is generally the view to which I subscribe. Admittedly it looks pretty rubbish when people walk into the secret door to escape the tavern area, but let's pretend that doesn't happen.

I can't remember if this has been stated before, but do you take quest ideas in Throne of Bhaal?
Yeh, I guess so, although I'd rather work with SoA because modding ToB requires me to actually play it, and that's fairly painful. :)

Offline Caedwyr

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Re: Brainstorming Time
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2005, 07:57:36 PM »
This was posted in another forum, but I figured that the Quest pack, or UB would be the best place to suggest it.

A possible scenario could be to tie the Guarded Compound into the Slavers plotline with the Copper Coronet. Basically, make the Guarded Compound be the place where the Amnian slavers are meeting. There could be a tie-in with Mae'Var, or the Shadow thieves since there's a decent chance that either would be involved, or not too happy to have another group moving in on their territory.

The twisted rune could be a third party which could be doing what the twisted rune likes to do, and infiltrating and taking over various power groups all throughout the region, preferably from within (you could make one of the NPC's in the guarded compound be a twisted rune infiltrator who is working to take over the enterprise from within). I'd remove the rather lame rogue stone thingy from his body, but instead put some item on his body which indirectly can be used to hint at further layers of intrigue here. Possibly a note with a hidden message in it (appears to mean one thing to most people, but to those that know it means something else). If possible, I'd like to blur the ties between the proposed infiltrator in the guarded compound and the twisted rune, making it something that you can only really figure out if you do the twisted rune stuff first. Make it much more mysterious and hidden, and only really make sense afterwords.

I'd suggest killing all ties between the skin-changer, the skinner and that whole plot line and the Twisted Rune. That part never really made sense to me and felt like too much of a reach to come up with a plausible reason why they'd be involved in that. Just have the Twisted Rune attempting to take over the Amnian Slave trade, and only make this readily apparant once you've actually defeated the Twisted Rune.

The ideal series of events would be that the player discovers the portal to the Twisted Rune hideout, manages to get in and defeat them and finds evidence that the Twisted Rune was working on infiltrating the Slave Trade, then later on goes and wipes out the guarded compound and finds some evidence on one of the bodies of those slain there which will link him/her to the Twisted Rune only if you knew there was an infiltrator.

Meanwhile, there'd be interactions between either the Slavers & the Shadow Thieves (main guild hall or mae'var, or both. For the thief guild you can run, a possible tie-in to the slavers could be an option when you are given a chance to take part in slave trading.)
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