Throne of Bhaal Unfinished Business

[icelus]

This is a list of a few of the things we've discovered have been cut (or planned and never implemented) by Bioware for the Throne of Bhaal portion of the game:

-Sarevok's remorse for Tamoko and Yoshimo
-Mazzy's redemption of Korgan
-The Cold Mistress in Saradush
-The return of Yoshimo (not likely...)
-Saemon disguising party as monks
-More obvious clue for WK
-Bounty hunters
-Melissan turning your friends
-Illasera's return
-The yellow dragon and his eggs
-Extended item descriptions
-Cespenar's Flask

.mht archives of the original threads can be downloaded here.

[jester]

-Cespenar's Flask

What for since you have the PP?

--Illasera's return

At last a worthy incest candidate? Not joinable I presume

[Silfairë]

-Mazzy's redemption of Korgan

[Silfairë]

Sorry, no edit option on this board so regarding the above post, does this mean that Korgan can change alignment?? If so, I wouldn't think that would be possible. Now, Serevok is a completely different story because after he dies, he is resurrected with part of your soul.

I can't see any reason whatsoever for Korgan to change alignment though. I can't even imagine Korgan being a goody two shoes, can you?

[jcompton]

It seems likely that Bioware intended for Mazzy to "redeem" Korgan. In the midst of their tenuous flirtation, he does agree to try to be nicer for her sake. There are lines in TOB coded for a CG Korgan. It would certainly take additional dialogue, however, to convince players that a real sea change had occurred in Mr. Bloodaxe's heart and mind.

And BTW, you'd be able to edit your posts if you registered your account. I cannot offhand think of many boards that allow guests to edit guest posts because... there's no authentication of identity.

[NiGHTMARE]

If this component is ever written & included in UB, I vote for the change to be to CN rather than CG (since the latter would be far too drastic) .

[Kish]

Since the change was originally planned to be to CG, I'd say it should be to CG or not at all--changing him to any other alignment would be outside the mandate of Unfinished Business.

That said, I'd advise "not at all."  Sarevok has a good side even when he appears in BG1 (he loves Tamoko) and he has reasons for being messed up, thanks to Rieltar.  Any good side Korgan shows is marginal at best, and he doesn't appear to even have an abusive childhood to explain his turning out bad.

[Caswallon]

Yeah. Someone (Sim?) said something like this on the old board - sometimes Bioware might have had better reasons to cut a quest than lack of time... discovering that it wasn't that good an idea to begin with, for instance.
Now, I certainly won't complain if anyone can write a Korgan-Mazzy "romance" that satisfactorily explains that alignment shift, but to change Korgan to *Good*, it'd certainly need more than a few banters.
Mellowing Korgan somewhat might be possible for Mazzy, but not to an extent that justifies such a drastic change, I think.

[Shodan]

This is a list of a few of the things we've discovered have been cut (or planned and never implemented) by Bioware for the Throne of Bhaal portion of the game:

-Saemon disguising party as monks

Like the Drow transformation?

-Illasera's return

We killed her. How can she come back?

[NiGHTMARE]

Since the change was originally planned to be to CG, I'd say it should be to CG or not at all--changing him to any other alignment would be outside the mandate of Unfinished Business.

IMHO simply having him become CN instead of CG would be far less of a change from the original plan than e.g. "Kalah and What He Was Promised" and the ending of "The Kidnapping of Boo" (I'm not complaing about either of them mind, they're my two favourite components ).

We killed her. How can she come back?

Normally I'd say through a Raise Dead/Resurrection/Wish spell, but since they apparently don't work on Bhaalspawn, I won't . The real excuse is that it wasn't actually her we killed in the grove, but a "sending" (a kind of magical clone) of her.  If I remember correctly, the real Illasera was going to be a powerful sorcereress living somewhere below Saradush.

[Barren]

Apparently the Illasera you killed was a simulacrum (the real one being a ranger-mage),

About Korgan and Mazzy, we never had any proof that there was something, right?

[jester]

@ -Mazzy's redemption of Korgan

For some interesting views on redemption in general try this: http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=7041

I think it is a blunder storywise and hope that it will be optional, please. For me, even to think Mazzy is a good romance match for Korgan is racist.

[Barren]

IIRC, that was brought up very early in the development of UB and was based solely on Mazzy and Korgan getting along well (and Gaider mentionning that hed have liked her to redeem him).

[Guest]

Hmmm... Aboyt the whole Korgan thing, I remember once taking Korgan on Jan's quest to save the Gnome girl (jaella). When it was revealed that Vaelag(?) had hurt her at some point, Korgan makes a comment about those who hurt children aren't worth the 'spittle on my boot' or somthing like that, showing that he isnt PURE evil....

[Rathwellin the Bard]

-Sarevok's remorse for Tamoko and Yoshimo

This would be a fine addition

-Mazzy's redemption of Korgan

Not so sure about this one.  It would take some fairly impressive banter to be believable.

-The Cold Mistress in Saradush

Thumbs up!

-The return of Yoshimo (not likely...)

I’ll agree that doing this properly might be beyond the scope of UB, but of all the unfinished business mentioned so far it is one of the most interesting to me.  I’m no huge Yoshimo fan, but when combined with the Sarevok/Tamoko thing above then it could be a *really* remarkable addition.

-Saemon disguising party as monks

Sounds good.

-More obvious clue for WK

I don’t really care about this one way or the other.

-Bounty hunters

Another thumbs up.

-Melissan turning your friends

I’ll have to read up more on this.  I don’t recall it right of the top of my head from the other threads.

-Illasera's return

OK, this one I see as problematical.  Pre-Ascension it would have been a fine idea and even fun.  Post-Ascension I don’t like it at all.  The Illasera encounter got a nice little boost in difficulty in Ascension in lieu of a return IMO.  If you add a Mage/Archer to the final Ascension battle instead of just an Archer … it will give just a little *too* much magic to the “dark” side in that conflict.  I have difficulty enough with that battle as is.  If you *don’t* change Illasera in the Ascension battle then this component will not be very seamless.

My vote would be to skip this restoration.

-The yellow dragon and his eggs

More Dragons is good.

-Extended item descriptions

Good!

-Cespenar's Flask

Agree with Jester.  Not needed.

[Sovran]

Some random, two-ish amount of cents:

-Sarevok's remorse for Tamoko and Yoshimo

A very welcome addition. By the way, if I may make a humble request, it'd be great if you could share some of your plans for this one, so we could take them into account in the making of the Sarevok relationship mod.

-The return of Yoshimo (not likely...)

This would be a remarkable addition - but how would it be done? It could work, and it could be sheer role playing goodness... on the other hand, if Yoshimo returned as a party member? A Personality dies a tragic death, only to make a grand comeback in the _sequel_, with pomp and circumstance. And there was much rejoicing. I think I've seen that one, somewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, and I like the idea. It just needs (and deserves) to be done well. Not that I doubt that you'd do it well. And I'm digging the pit deeper with every word, so I'll just bite my tongue. 

-More obvious clue for WK

Sorely needed, yes please!

-Extended item descriptions

The more, the better.

edit:

-Melissan turning your friends

Forgot to add this one. Sounds interesting, as far as those four words go. Any details? Is there some place where I could read some more about it? I checked the old forums, but didn't find much. Is NI the next stop?

[Dark Raven]

The redemption of Korgan would be good. He hits on Mazzy in SoA and in time she starts to warm up to him and he becomes much less of an evil ass.

[Cybersquirt]

If this component is ever written & included in UB, I vote for the change to be to CN rather than CG (since the latter would be far too drastic) .

No worse than Sarevok's..    ..but it would have to involve a lot more than Mazzy else it be entirely as lame as Sarevok.  So yeah, at the very least Sarevok should be remorsing.

Yoshimo.. maybe for the end-fight but I hate when dead guys come back; ditto that for Illasera.

Melissan turning your friends:  A few, Oh yeah..    An unredeemed Sarevok for starters.

[Barren]

No, that meant your friends would turn into Slayer Shadows when they died (instead of Melissan just summonning the Shadows).

[Cybersquirt]

(oh ffs.. as if that battle in'nt enough of a pain in the arse)

[Jerry]

No, that meant your friends would turn into Slayer Shadows when they died (instead of Melissan just summonning the Shadows).

Really? When I saw Melissan summoned Slayer Shadows at the begining of the third battle I thought she turning dead Baalspawn to Slayer Shadows and only dead Baalspawn could be turned.

[Barren]

Also plausible. Was there any hint in game that she was turning Bhaalspawns?

[SixOfSpades]

As far as returning Yoshimo to life goes, I seem to recall that the body must be pretty much intact if the person is to survive the process. Now what was it we did with that heart again?.....

Personally, I think it would be a better idea to make a new tidbit in Ascension: If Evil gods can bring people back from the dead, so can Good ones. Amelysan conjures up Jon Irenicus--and Ilmater blocks with Yoshimo.
     (Ilmater is LG, so the point of whether or not this violates Ao's mandate that the other gods must keep their fingers out of the Bhaalspawn pie deserves scrutiny. It might be said that since Yoshimo's fate was bound to Jon's and the PC's anyway, Ilmater did not actually break any rules--or at least no more than Kelemvor broke by allowing the return of Jon, Bodhi, and the Five.)
     This Yoshimo does not join the party, and is not the Yoshimo we knew and loved: He's no longer a real Thief, he's closer to a Priest of Ilmater. He is Blind, and helps to personify the essence of suffering by being a highly resistant damage soaker, but takes no real offensive action apart from his famous Traps. All in all, this could make Yoshimo a real stumbling block for Irenicus, which would be quite in character and a nice turnabout.

This could only happen if the PC removed the Geas, of course.
And it makes Ilmater look like less of a wuss, a much-needed change. "The Crying God" isn't exactly a moniker that earns one a whole lot of street cred, after all.

[NiGHTMARE]

SixOfSpades: Kelemvor is only god of the dead in the Forgotten Realms and the Grey Waste, and since Jon, Bodhi & the Five were resurrected in the Abyss, he has nothing whatsoever to do with process.  I believe the god who controls the dead in the Abyss is Orcus, who's not bound by any agreement with Ao since (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) he's not part of any Forgotten Realms pantheons.

EDIT: Ah, apparently Orcus was killed by a fellow deity of the Abyss, the Drow goddess Kiaransalee, who assumed his portfolio.  She is worshipped in the FR, meanining unless she wants to withdraw from there, she shouldn't be able to interefere.

In fact, any deity who is completely unattached to Realmspace (the solar system, or "crystal sphere" Aber-Toril is located in) would be free to interfere with plane/world travelling Bhaalspawn as much as they like, since Ao would be able to do precisely nothing about it.  He only has power in Realmspace, and nowhere else.

[SixOfSpades]

....I believe the god who controls the dead in the Abyss is Orcus, who's not bound by any agreement with Ao since (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) he's not part of any Forgotten Realms pantheons.

Personally, I find that....a little bizarre. Since Bhaal was completely under Ao's sway, where does he get off constructing his throne in a place where Ao (and, therefore, himself) would have no power?

....In fact, any deity who is completely unattached to Realmspace (the solar system, or "crystal sphere" Aber-Toril is located in) would be free to interfere with plane/world travelling Bhaalspawn as much as they like, since Ao would be able to do precisely nothing about it.  He only has power in Realmspace, and nowhere else.

Ah--you mean the "outer deities" could interfere with Realmspace creatures while they were outside Realmspace, yes?
And would priests of FR gods have power while they were outside their deities' sphere of influence?