My two cents worth

[MitchMc]

I have played through various portions of the mod and have the following comments. Not all of them are new, but where I repeat what someone else has said I am agreeing with them.

First in terms of our friend Cecile
When you discover the thugs beating up Moiya they run off and you have very little chance to kill them. If you do not kill off the right two you have problems getting the little girl in the graveyard to talk to you. (Given the CLUA console instructions looks like you need to kill off numbers 2 and three) It is very difficult to do this, even if you go in with three mages with triple flame arrows loaded.

 Either the trigger should be changed from “dead thugs one and two” to “paying of the thug on the side of the copper cornet” (not the best option as then you have to pay and can’t locate the little girl by searching…. I assume you can find her by searching but I honestly cant remember doing that)

or

The thugs need to stay around and fight you after the cut scene. Perhaps they could be 10th level fighters (Orc or dwarf) with 5 points in clubs, two in dual wielding.  Con 20, Dex 18 use one +1 club and one regular club. They drink a potion of storm giant strength and oil of speed after they beat on moiya (during cut scene) and then attack.. That would give a bit of a punch to the fray. A virtue point for saving a woman from three thugs might be in order.

In terms of the enforcers that are sent after you I think that they could be beefed up a bit as well. I had an interesting bug occur. It was not due to this mod, I reinstalled the ToB official patch and then reinstalled all of the mods again without uninstalling them first, net result was that a number of characters in a number of different mods showed up twice, right beside each other. (Also a lot of really cool one of a kind mod items showed up twice in the merchants inventory) any how I ended up facing two groups of enforcers at the same time…sweet. Not an epic battle but much more in line with what I expected to face for 50,000 gold. I played it through a couple of times, once I forgot that I had not finished killing of all the Toweled Enforcers and the highest members of their order showed up and joined the two groups of enforcers. That was ugly, but fun ( slowed the processing down a bit but not  much)

You could do sort of a scowled enforcer increasing difficulty type of thing. First one group of enforcers shows up asks for the money back (They don’t do that now but it might be a option), Then two groups show up, then three groups show up. Should be really simple to program and makes the player earn the stolen gold.

( aside, should you lose a virtue point for stealing from a loan shark? I know you don’t now but should you ?)

In terms of the interest rate  and the time to pay it back I think they are balanced given the rate that time that passes in the game. Given the exp point for the quest paying 6000+ to save the girl is not bad. Yes I know that 6000 gold is a lot of money for a single mom to borrow but……perhaps the kids are in private school. 

In terms of hostile Cecile in Brynnlaw the difficulties have been mentioned, esp bad if you kill him and the bartender goes hostile. Massive loss of rep and virtue. A very anticlimactic ending. Glad to read it is going to get kicked up a bit.

Good story line, not just adding new difficult battles.. lots of fun



In Terms of the Xzar/Harper quest/changes

quite enjoyable, lots of options and for a nominal loss of reputation and virtue you can stick it to the harpers. (can reduce virtue loss by keeping jahera in the party, having her die in combat and then kicking her out (while dead) before you cross the harpers * evil grin * )
I particularly enjoyed it when I sent her in solo to face Xzars houseguests, she died I kicked her out and I ended up two points more virtuous 

In terms of the loss of reputation if you betray and slaughter the harpers ( one for Rylock two more for the boys inside) I think loss should be limited to the single rep point loss for Rylock that occurs in public, since there are no survivors inside who would know…yes perhaps some one would see you go in and then find out about the slaughter later but I lost  the two points even when my whole party went invisible and slipped in past Rylock.
The harpers are a secretive lot and would not broadcast their defeat…( a minor point)

If you wanted more Ideas for quests ect you could have the harpers come after the PC later if you chose to betray them and side with Xzar.

Exp wise (once the 35,000 PC 15500 NPC quest XP is adjusted when you betray the Harper assassin) you defiantly want to betray the harpers whether or not you fight them.
70,0000 quest betray harpers vs. 35000 quest betray Xzar. ( plus the extras for Rylock ,the boys inside and 27000 easy points for the spectral harpers)

Speaking of Rylock perhaps you could beef him up a bit. All he does is go invisible/stone skin/fire shield and then dispel or remove magic and throw MMMs.  I don’t think I had ever killed him before, and some how I always thought he would be more impressive.

In terms of the bird if you go upstairs first and get the bird, then talk to Meronia you get two birds. If you betray Xzar you lose both if you betray the harper assassin  you only lose one. Another good reason to betray the harpers. A lovely keepsake bird 

The Lucette dialogue does need to be change if you go along with Meronias plan

There are three different endings prior to Xzar buggering off and heading back to Prebecks Zxar says “ poor poor Monty” each time just before he goes. I really think that you should add on “I must get him back home to the lab” or a similar phrase to clue the player into going back to the house..

 Your quest book gets updated, and the quest moved to completed quests after Zxar buggers off. I played through a couple of times before I headed back to Prebecks. I think the cut scene and ending is to good to miss. This should defiantly be done, seriously…


All things considered a great little romp

[MitchMc]

First in terms of our friend Cecile


 Either the trigger should be changed from “dead thugs one and two” to “paying of the thug on the side of the copper cornet” (not the best option as then you have to pay and can’t locate the little girl by searching…. I assume you can find her by searching but I honestly cant remember doing that) 

The other reason this is not the best option is you can't refuse to pay and then beat the thug into submission
(bullies are cowards  )

I am so looking forward to killing those !@#$%%^^& in some other manner than Ctrl Y   

Cheers
MitchMc

[Qwinn]

I think when the thugs are beating up on Moiya, your best bet is to just let them run off.  I don't think it was really expected that the player would force attack them as they run away.  It indeed can cause problems and mess up the quest.  You'll get your chance to kill those two killable thugs off later (in the graveyard).

Thing is, though, the thug who demands payment near the CC... you -can- beat him into submission.  It's how you can get him to tell you that the little girl is in the graveyard.  Or am I not understanding what you're saying?

Qwinn

[MitchMc]

I think when the thugs are beating up on Moiya, your best bet is to just let them run off.  I don't think it was really expected that the player would force attack them as they run away.  It indeed can cause problems and mess up the quest.  You'll get your chance to kill those two killable thugs off later (in the graveyard).

Thing is, though, the thug who demands payment near the CC... you -can- beat him into submission.  It's how you can get him to tell you that the little girl is in the graveyard.  Or am I not understanding what you're saying?

Qwinn

If you pay off the thug in the slums then the little girl does not talk to you and I did not have the two thugs waiting for me when I found her. I think others may have had this problem as well. The solution was to CLUA in dead thug one and two. As they did not spawn and I did not kill them I thought that you were to kill them when you first met them I guess I was wrong *sigh*

If you beat the thug up that demands money he does tell you where she is, you can go to the graveyard and then the thugs are there and you can kill them. I think they spawn even if they are killed previously

So I guess the other solution is to make sure the thugs spawn in the crypt when you pay off the thug in the
slums

When I said "The other reason this is not the best option is you can't refuse to pay and then beat the thug into submission" I was talking about changing the trigger to" pay off thug in slums" from "dead thug one and two" If the trigger was changed to "pay of thug in slums" then you could not beat the info out of him and find her.......


Any clearer?

sorry 

Cheers
MitchMc

[SimDing0™]

When you discover the thugs beating up Moiya they run off and you have very little chance to kill them. If you do not kill off the right two you have problems getting the little girl in the graveyard to talk to you. (Given the CLUA console instructions looks like you need to kill off numbers 2 and three) It is very difficult to do this, even if you go in with three mages with triple flame arrows loaded.

It shouldn't be possible to kill any of them at that stage.

Either the trigger should be changed from “dead thugs one and two” to “paying of the thug on the side of the copper cornet” (not the best option as then you have to pay and can’t locate the little girl by searching…. I assume you can find her by searching but I honestly cant remember doing that)

This is fixed for the next release. You can either search, or pay the thug and find her.

In terms of the enforcers that are sent after you I think that they could be beefed up a bit as well. I had an interesting bug occur. It was not due to this mod, I reinstalled the ToB official patch and then reinstalled all of the mods again without uninstalling them first, net result was that a number of characters in a number of different mods showed up twice, right beside each other. (Also a lot of really cool one of a kind mod items showed up twice in the merchants inventory) any how I ended up facing two groups of enforcers at the same time…sweet. Not an epic battle but much more in line with what I expected to face for 50,000 gold. I played it through a couple of times, once I forgot that I had not finished killing of all the Toweled Enforcers and the highest members of their order showed up and joined the two groups of enforcers. That was ugly, but fun ( slowed the processing down a bit but not  much)

I'll see about beefing up the battle, but it shouldn't be too difficult for characters early on. I'll probably attune it to party level and size or something.

( aside, should you lose a virtue point for stealing from a loan shark? I know you don’t now but should you ?)

That'd be inconsistent. Virtue doesn't apply penalties for theft (partly due to engine limitations), and it especially shouldn't make an exception for stealing from an evil guy.

In terms of the loss of reputation if you betray and slaughter the harpers ( one for Rylock two more for the boys inside) I think loss should be limited to the single rep point loss for Rylock that occurs in public, since there are no survivors inside who would know…yes perhaps some one would see you go in and then find out about the slaughter later but I lost  the two points even when my whole party went invisible and slipped in past Rylock.
The harpers are a secretive lot and would not broadcast their defeat…( a minor point)

Good idea. Will change this. Virtue should still drop majorly for slaughtering them, however.

Exp wise (once the 35,000 PC 15500 NPC quest XP is adjusted when you betray the Harper assassin) you defiantly want to betray the harpers whether or not you fight them.
70,0000 quest betray harpers vs. 35000 quest betray Xzar. ( plus the extras for Rylock ,the boys inside and 27000 easy points for the spectral harpers)

I'm fairly sure I edited it so you get the same quest XP rewards either way now.

Speaking of Rylock perhaps you could beef him up a bit. All he does is go invisible/stone skin/fire shield and then dispel or remove magic and throw MMMs.  I don’t think I had ever killed him before, and some how I always thought he would be more impressive.

Will do.

In terms of the bird if you go upstairs first and get the bird, then talk to Meronia you get two birds. If you betray Xzar you lose both if you betray the harper assassin  you only lose one. Another good reason to betray the harpers. A lovely keepsake bird 

Ah. Fixed.

The Lucette dialogue does need to be change if you go along with Meronias plan

Yeh, too true. Working on it.

There are three different endings prior to Xzar buggering off and heading back to Prebecks Zxar says “ poor poor Monty” each time just before he goes. I really think that you should add on “I must get him back home to the lab” or a similar phrase to clue the player into going back to the house..

Yeh, this is a good idea. The ending was meant to be rather abrupt, but I didn't think to hint at where he was going.

Your quest book gets updated, and the quest moved to completed quests after Zxar buggers off. I played through a couple of times before I headed back to Prebecks. I think the cut scene and ending is to good to miss. This should defiantly be done, seriously…

I think the journal entry is in the right place, since that's the end of the real quest as such. I'll add the dialogue hint, and have the journal updated again if you do go there, though.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[MitchMc]

When you discover the thugs beating up Moiya they run off and you have very little chance to kill them. If you do not kill off the right two you have problems getting the little girl in the graveyard to talk to you. (Given the CLUA console instructions looks like you need to kill off numbers 2 and three) It is very difficult to do this, even if you go in with three mages with triple flame arrows loaded.

It shouldn't be possible to kill any of them at that stage.

If you fire before the cut scene there is no damage done, if you fire after the cut scene while they are running away 2 mages each firing a sequencer with 3x Flame arrows at the same thug and you can kill that thug. honest wouldn't lie need all my virtue points 

Either the trigger should be changed from “dead thugs one and two” to “paying of the thug on the side of the copper cornet” (not the best option as then you have to pay and can’t locate the little girl by searching…. I assume you can find her by searching but I honestly cant remember doing that)

This is fixed for the next release. You can either search, or pay the thug and find her.

Cool I take it you will still be able to beat the info out of the thug (most enjoysable method of the three )

In terms of the loss of reputation if you betray and slaughter the harpers ( one for Rylock two more for the boys inside) I think loss should be limited to the single rep point loss for Rylock that occurs in public, since there are no survivors inside who would know…yes perhaps some one would see you go in and then find out about the slaughter later but I lost  the two points even when my whole party went invisible and slipped in past Rylock.
The harpers are a secretive lot and would not broadcast their defeat…( a minor point)

Good idea. Will change this. Virtue should still drop majorly for slaughtering them, however.

I think the one point virtue is sufficient.

The harpers, as I understand it strive to achieve balance. To do so they sometimes help the good and sometimes help the evil. While the concept may be correct/virtus/defendable there is a major difficulty and that is the limited ability of humans to accurately predict future events/outcomes based on current information/situations. We can’t do it. There are to many variables and we always have  incomplete information.

To “balllance” the world through taking action based on a humans cognitive abilities to predict the future is to be egotistical in the extreme. This is what the harper do there for they are egotistical in the extreme.The ego is our greatest enemy.

Therefore the harpers are our greatest enemy  

cheers
Mitch

[NiGHTMARE]

The Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world, and there are many people (and creatures) in it who have the ability to predict the future.  I'm quite sure the Harpers employ more than a couple of them .

[Reverendratbastard]

  and galvarey's harpers, while in the majority of the organization appearing in bg2 (along with the odd oliver-north/rank-and-file-nazi-period-german individuals below him in rank), are not in fact your typical harpers.
  and uncle terminsel always knows best... 

[MitchMc]

The Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world, and there are many people (and creatures) in it who have the ability to predict the future.  I'm quite sure the Harpers employ more than a couple of them .

No we live in the fantasy relm, FM is reality 

To my understanding while lots of seers ect can see the future even the gods are unable to predict it accuratly enought to figure what is going on and set plans in motion accordingly 

Mitch

[MitchMc]

  and galvarey's harpers, while in the majority of the organization appearing in bg2 (along with the odd oliver-north/rank-and-file-nazi-period-german individuals below him in rank), are not in fact your typical harpers.

Ok so if I am wrong above, then I am still right and there should be no loss of virtue as you are doing good and restoring harper ballance by exterminating oliver-north/rank-and-file-nazi-period-german individuals  

I think you agree with my conclusion but not my analysis

   and uncle terminsel always knows best... 

isn't he the guy that shows up only if you fall asleep while playing 

Cheers
with tounge in cheek
MitchMc

[NiGHTMARE]

To my understanding while lots of seers ect can see the future even the gods are unable to predict it accuratly enought to figure what is going on and set plans in motion accordingly 

Actually, the god Savras can clearly see the future, but he rarely shares his knowledge with anyone (not even his superiors Azuth and Mystra).  He's the one who gave Alaundo his visions.

[MitchMc]

Actually, the god Savras can clearly see the future, but he rarely shares his knowledge with anyone (not even his superiors Azuth and Mystra).  He's the one who gave Alaundo his visions.

Great so Savras gave the contennt for the nine books of proficies to Alaundo of Castlekeep, thats one god of many ? Even the greter gods incl mistrsa of magic didn't/couldn't do that, or he could not have kept it from them........

and how is Alaundo teid into the harpers, ?

 I thought he was a hermit. went to castle keep wrote things down and died ? Lots of people had access to the writings I I don't see the harper
connection

 
Even if he was tied into the harpers, these are "bad" harpers, so they should die 

cheers
MitchMc

[NiGHTMARE]

Where did I say he was connected to the Harpers? I was merely responding to the "even the gods cannot predict the future" part of your post.

[MitchMc]

Where did I say he was connected to the Harpers? I was merely responding to the "even the gods cannot predict the future" part of your post.

Yes and you gave one god as an example

is it not the exception that proves the rule?

a lot of dead eclectrons over a virtue point

mitch

[NiGHTMARE]

Okay, I strongly suspect Ao can see the future as well.

There you go, gods not a god .

[MitchMc]

Okay, I strongly suspect Ao can see the future as well.

There you go, gods not a god .

Ao, I don’t think so. Have you played the expanded planers sphere ??
Man Ao never saw it coming, blind sided, wiped out, if he didn't see that coming....

Great little mod however. Lots o fun

But back to the main point

(There is a main point  )

Yes Yes there is

I would submit that unless someone can show some concrete evidence that the Harpers
Receive some sort of super divine intelligence reports showing them how their actions
Will effect the future then they fall into the egotistical meddlers who think what they believe is right and believe what they think is right category. Possibly a good intentioned group but the road to hell is paved with good intensions
Thus one virtue point is more that sufficient (note I really don't think you should lose a point at all but I didn't think that would go over)

Now some one might argue that
(1) Since the harpers are not "good" and
(2) As this is a splinter (evil) Harper group, that,
(3) In fact they are a "good" Harper sub group, and therefore,
You should lose a virtue point

This is similar to the enemy of my enemy is my friend thesis

Anyhow they would be wrong. This Harper subgroup is evil in intention as well as evil in action, they are an evil evil group and hence it is good to wipe them out

If I am wrong in this and the Harpers are in fact a good organization then wiping out these “evil Nazi harpers” is a good thing to do and there should be no loss of a virtue point what so ever 

           

Exp wise (once the 35,000 PC 15500 NPC quest XP is adjusted when you betray the Harper assassin) you defiantly want to betray the harpers whether or not you fight them.
70,0000 quest betray harpers vs. 35000 quest betray Xzar. ( plus the extras for Rylock ,the boys inside and 27000 easy points for the spectral harpers)

I'm fairly sure I edited it so you get the same quest XP rewards either way now.

No NO dont do that, i think it was one of like three encounters in the game where you got more exp for following the "evil "path on the other hand if I am correct above then killing them is the good path

           

In terms of the bird if you go upstairs first and get the bird, then talk to Meronia you get two birds. If you betray Xzar you lose both if you betray the harper assassin  you only lose one. Another good reason to betray the harpers. A lovely keepsake bird 

Ah. Fixed.

NO I liked the bird, later when I get older I am planning on letting my kids play with it 

Cheers
MitchMc

[NiGHTMARE]

Umm, how is a fan-made BG2 mod evidence of anything in official D&D? If I made a mod where the Forgotten Realms is destroyed by a nuclear bomb, would that mean Wizards of the Coast had to stop making FR products?

Anyway, even if the splinter Harper group is evi (and IMHO it's only Galvarey who's particularly evil)l, there's no way they're anywhere near as evil as the group Montaron works for (i.e. the Zhentarim).

[Qwinn]

"Will effect the future then they fall into the egotistical meddlers who think what they believe is right and believe what they think is right category. Possibly a good intentioned group but the road to hell is paved with good intensions."

"If I am wrong in this and the Harpers are in fact a good organization then wiping out these “evil Nazi harpers” is a good thing to do..."

At this point I would award 1 point in "moral relativism", where no belief is right and no belief is wrong, -except- the belief that there is no right and wrong - that belief is absolutely right, and so is wiping out people who think they're ever absolutely right, as they are most definetly absolutely wrong!  Or something.

Qwinn

[Murdane]

Mitch, be careful about comparing certain characters to "Nazis"--you are drawing parallels that may not exist.  I don't even think "nazi" is an apt term for the corrupt Harpers, anyway.  Like Nightmare said, most of them aren't even evil; if you cast Holy Smite on them (I think even Galvarey) it doesn't do anything. 

I think it's a mistake to consider anyone who works against the PC as "evil".  It's possible that most of the corrupted Harpers really think they are doing the right thing in trying to get rid of the PC, even if their leaders show almost no signs of intelligence or careful thought (such as the "golden" excuse: "We don't know all the details of what occured, all we know is that Harpers are dead and you are responsible."  Shrewd mind, that. ).