Well, I still don't agree that killing Drizzt is a much more egregious crime than killing Windspear or Reyna, or any other innocent person for that matter.
Drizzt is -3 because if you killed him, you killed his friends as well (which is also why Reyna is -2). True, I've never read any Drizzt stuff, but if they're a force for Good and are as powerful and famous in the game as they appear to be, I'd say intentionally killing them means you're one evil bastard.
Having evil characters in your party does not make you evil.
As I said, I'm listing
everything. Disagree with "alignment influence by peer pressure" if you wish, but a couple of people have liked the idea. Just because it's on the list doesn't mean it'll be implemented.
you wipe out half the game with your list. Ok first off you destory the underdark path.
Working for Solaufein / Imrae: -1
Working for Phaere: -1
Working for Matron Mother Ardulace: -1
and betraying Mother Ardulace.
All of these things are needed to get out of the Drow city in secret.
I should point out that it's entirely possible (and, indeed, good roleplaying for a Paladin) to simply give his correct name to the guard at the Ust Natha Gate, and then simply stride in and kill everyone who tries to stop him, all the way to Adalon's eggs. In fact, combat-wise, this path is significantly easier than some of the optional "undercover" Ust Natha-related stuff, like the Mage duels in the tavern or the Illithid Tunnels.
DSolaufein whorships a chaotic good deity. Not loith!
Unless you actually Detect Evil, the party fully believes that they're working for an Evil Drow. And even if they DO Detect Evil, they still ARE working for Evil Drow in the form of Imrae, Phaere, and Ardulace.
You have to work for Aran or Bodhi you can't slap some one with a virtue hit no matter what the pick.
Thus emphasizing my belief that everyone, even Paladins, should be allowed at least a little bit of leeway without suffering any permanent crippling effects to their character. Enough leeway to work for someone Evil, and obey them when they call out a hit on somebody.
Killing Kangaxx the Lich( he already attacks you its self-defense also its an evil lich!)
I've changed this to
freeing Kangaxx the Lich. (Under the 'Blasphemy' section for now, until I think of something better.) From what the Shade Lich and Elemental Lich say, the PC should have at least enough doubt to explore Kangaxx's conversation tree and hear the "a thousand years of suffering" line, thus pretty soundly confirming that this is an Evil that should be left imprisoned.
Obtaining "Blood of a Noble race": -1 also part of the underdark the blood is from an evil creature, Which you might already have from stumbling about.
Kish supports a Virtue hit for killing intelligent creatures at Ardulace's behest, and she has some good arguments to support it, so it goes on the list. The fact that it's included under "Acting as hitman for evil boss" means you aren't just 'stumbling about.'
You can lie but still be good. Its called Chaotic Good
True, but it still is rather unvirtuous by its very nature. "Thou shalt not bear false witness," if I may be allowed to make a non-FR reference.
"Killing Ihtafeer: -1" Ithafeer is evil. And it requried to finish trademeet.
Hitman. Evil boss. And how does the PC know that Khan Zahraa is really seeking Ihtafeer's head for a moral purpose? This is just like Edwin calling a hit on Rayic Gethras, except that Ihtafeer is assumed Evil because of her birth while Gethras is assumed Evil because of his career choice.
Also how is working for Xzar evil. He wants his friend back. I feel bad that he died. He didn't die because he was evil. He dies because he cared about his friend.
He died because he was an Evil Necromancer in the service of the Zhentarim, and working in opposition to the Harpers. The Harpers may only be Neutral (opinions vary), but compared to the Zhentarim, they're saints.
The major shortcoming of such a list is twofold. Virtue operates in between 1 and 20 which does not give you enough leeway to punish you for everytime you do not let Aerie go to the loo in between fights and not sharing your sandwich.
Quite true. I'm deliberately listing everything, we'll weed it out later. It's hardly like that Sim will implement Virtue drops for working for Ixilthetocal,
and betraying Ixilthetocal,
and working for Villynaty,
and killing Ixilthetocal. Unless he shifts from a 20-point scale to 200 or something.
Another off the cuff example:
Working for the Hidden: -1 (How does that work?)
Yup. I threw this (and Ihtafeer) in as a counterpoint to the whole Edwin/Gethras thing. The similarities pretty much dictate that a Virtue hit from one means the others deserve a hit, too.
'Giving the illithium alloy to Sir Sarles: -1' - at the risk of appearing dense: Why?
Because you lied to / misled him by not supplying him with the real thing.
Of course, there are those who would argue that to invest such a priceless resource as illithium into some useless sculpture when the city is under attack by Undead is pretty damn stupid (and I'd be one of them), and the resulting risk to civilians is what deserves the Virtue loss, not lying to Sarles. But to me, that's less illogical than the "fact" that it takes 200 pounds of metal to coat an 8-pound Mace.
I think freeing Viconia should be a virtuous act if it isn't. It is an act of mercy after all.
I believe the current arrangement slaps a -1 penalty to Reputation if you free her, and -1 to Virtue if you don't. Would you prefer a +1 to Virtue for freeing, and leaving the result of your inaction to be no change at all?
What *I* would prefer is for some more clarity on the whole situation. For instance, is the execution legal, or isn't it? True, the ringleader is clearly labeled "Fanatic" and worships a deity who sounds Evil, but then the Amnish Guards flanking the door of the Prison aren't doing anything to stop it. Also, did Viconia actually commit a crime or didn't she? Was she tried? You (the PC) have about six seconds to find that out, and that's only if you talk to the right person.
Wearing the Robe of Vecna: -1 per week
Similar question, what about the item description makes this item evil? I know that Vecna wasn't the nicest guy, but how does using one of his old possessions make you evil? You could make the same argument about using the Holy Avenger, since it used to be the possession of a CE Red Dragon, or any number of other items looted off of evil individuals who used/created them.
Firkraag only has Carsomyr because he presumably looted it from a Paladin he killed. The Robe of Vecna, on the other hand, is magical simply from absorbing the aura of the incredibly evil Lich/god.
Working for Aran Linvail: -1
This is required to advance the plot. Virute should be something that the player can control, and not offering a virtuous path to the player sucks.
I agree on all counts.
Additionally, by working for these individuals [the Sahuagin] you can severely weaken one of the nastier groups of coastal raiders, which will prevent numerous deaths further down the line.
Which is a thorny issue: Weaken them and the Kou-Toa and Illithids will take over and replace them....unless you kill
them too, in which case the Sahuagin will come back stronger than ever, etc. And a Druid would not condone the virtual extermination of any of these species, anyway.
Killing Mencar Pebblecrusher: -1
Umm, but he attacked me first. I think that good manners should not be equated to virtue.
True. But a Paladin would realize that this guy has enough aggravation trying to control his own group, and swallow his pride long enough to let well enough alone.
Working for the Aboleth: -1
Killing Quile: -1
In this case, the player may believe that they are forced to do the Aboleth's bidding or be exposed which will prevent their from being able to rescue the eggs that are needed to let the player escape from the underdark. Something that would be nice though, is a chance to reveal the aboleth's plot to Quile and do a nice double-cross. As it is, Quile goes hostile as soon as you see her and the player doesn't have a chance to betray the Aboleth to her.
Good call.
Working for Lady Lurraxol: -1
Working for Lord Alibakkar: -1
Why is it non-virtuous to work for these nobles? Neither of them are evil, and you need to agree to work with one of them for Lord Logan to approach you with his proposal.
Both are Evil (he's Chaotic, she's Lawful), and the player can't know about Logan's suggestion in advance.
Freeing the Enslaved Genie: +1
Killing the Enslaved Genie: -1
Aren't these the same thing? I thought that killing the enslaved Genie freed him. That's what the Genie begs after all "Kill me and release me back to my home plane" or something along those lines.
This isn't Dola Fadoon, the torture victim in Ust Natha, but the one in the Selfish test in Hell.
Encouraging Keldorn to uphold the law against cuckoldry: -1
Encouraging Keldorn to ignore the law against cuckoldry: -1
So damned if you do, and damned if you don't. The player can't seem to do anything right when it comes to Keldorn's quest.
Exactly. I realize that the Virtue mod currently doesn't use the Law-Chaos axis, but we are talking about a Paladin here.
Working for Jarlaxle: -1
Jarlaxle didn't strike me as particularly evil. He was quite a nice guy, I thought. Anyway, helping him achieves two things:
- saving the souls of loyal men (albeit Drow) from eternal imprisonment (as far as you know)
- retaining your secrecy, thus allowing you to save the Silver Dragon eggs.
Saving Drow from Imprisonment doesn't sound all that Good to me. And Adalon's eggs have nothing to do with the matter if you do this entire quest in Chapter 6 (which is quite possible). But I should make that more clear, you're right. And list a Virtue penalty for browbeating the Rope out of Visaj.
If you're going to have a list anything like this severe, you've got to apply something like minima and maxima.
....So a revised account would be:
Keldorn: +1 per week if virtue is less than 13; no bonus otherwise.
Similarly, once you've been murdering and pillaging your way through the Realms, killing all heroes and aiding all villains you meet, a simple lie to your own material advantage shouldn't lower your virtue any further.
Another good idea.