Author Topic: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)  (Read 16361 times)

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2004, 12:31:55 PM »

The only reason the ending was long was because of crap cinematography. He used too many fadeouts and they were too long. And the stupid reunion scene. GAH!

I'm not a big fan of the slo-mo reunion scene either, and I'd be the first to admit that the editing and transitions in the post-Mt. Doom part of RotK were not ideal. However, I don't see what that has to do with the length of movie. Those types of changes wouldn't reduce the actual length of the movie much at all--seconds at most.

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The Scouring of the Shire rather changes the story though. With it, you have the War of the Ring spilling over to every area of Middle Earth (especially when coupled with the fact that the Elves and Dwarves were being attacked as well).

I agree it would have been nice to see how the war with Sauron affected the other parts of ME. I would have liked to have had a quick montage of scenes of elves, dwarves and men fighting Sauron's armies with significant landmarks, like say, The Lonely Mountain, in the background. Maybe PJ thought it would be confusing to non book-readers or a distraction from the main story, I don't know why he didn't do it, but I'm okay with the decision.

Showing the Scouring is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, however. Since we have seen more of the Shire than the other lands, and we know that hobbits are not exactly "renowned as great warriors", I think they would have had to spend considerable time showing how the hobbits got into the situation and got out of it. That takes time. I don't see how they could adequately do the SofS in less than 20-30 minutes of screen time. But the biggest problem is the timing of the Scouring.  The climax of the movie was done, and the action needed to be wrapped up. Introducing a whole new set of conflicts and adding another 1/2 hour of action oriented material to the end would have ruined the pace of the movie and distracted from the real climax, IMO.

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The way it's in the film implies that a) Saurons army was a lot smaller than in the books, b) It wasn't large enough to take all of Middle Earth, c) he didn't realise there were plains to the north of the Black Gate.

Huh? Sauron's army looked enormous compared to Aragorn's troops, and since we hadn't been shown any large armies in ME other than the ones in Rohan and Gondor, to me it looked like they could easily sweep them aside and go on to conquer the rest of the continent.

Honestly, I have no clue what you mean about not realizing that there were plains to the north of the Black Gate.

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2004, 12:37:19 PM »
The lives of all elves are tied to Arda and they must wait in Mandos' halls until the day the world comes to an end. So in a way they all pass into the west although my x rereads of the Sil never revealed to me where these halls were located.

FYI, here's what the Encyclopedia of Arda, (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/) which is generally considered to be a reliable source of information on all things Tolkien, has to say on the subject:

The dwellings of the Doomsman of the Valar, the mighty being properly called Námo, though he was more often given the name Mandos from his own halls. The name comes from two Elvish words meaning 'prison' and 'fortress', and the Halls stood on the western shores of Valinor, looking out across the Encircling Sea. They were said to grow in size as the World aged, and their walls were hung with the tapestries of Námo's spouse Vairë, depicting all the events of unfolding history.


Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2004, 12:55:50 PM »
Not really. I was speaking from the hobbits', the fellowship and Middle Earth's pov. From Faramir and Gondor's perspective, he did the right thing. My assumption is that whatever Tolkien does to continue the quest to save Middle Earth nicely and smoothly is by definition right (it doesn't have to be Faramir-related). Whenever Tolkien throws a giant roadblock in their path, I consider that a huge inconvenience to the hobbits. Therefore they are wronged, even when the giant roadblock (eg Shelob) is just doing what they do best.

Let me get this straight...you think Faramir as depicted in the movie is an evil, self-centered bastard because he acts in a way consistent with his POV as a Ranger of Ithilien, and doesn't react to the hobbits in a way that is advantageous to them in the completion of their quest. Even though he had no way of knowing about their quest before he met them and had no reason to trust them or believe they were telling the truth. Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.

The idea that Shelob somehow 'wronged' the hobbits is also a very bizarre one, IMO. "Wronged", to my mind, implies unfair or unjust treatment. Shelob's attack on the hobbits had absolutely nothing to do with fair or unfair, she is a evil creature who acted completely within her nature. That's like saying that being hit by lightning is "unfair". Sure it sucks, but how is it 'unjust'?

BTW, while we're on the subject of Faramir, explain please why book-Faramir seemed absolutely immune to the temptations of the Ring, when just as good-hearted, but much more powerful characters like Galadriel and Gandalf were not?

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2004, 01:07:39 PM »
Please don't make any further derogatory statements about Faramir. I have already explained my feelings about him, and will feel obliged to challenge you to a duel if you continue. 

Bring it on. I'll take "informed debate" at 10 paces. A warning, though, I've had a lot of experience debating this and other LotR book/movies issues.

Offline discharger12

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2004, 03:11:12 PM »
Considering how he felt about making LotR into movies, I don't think he'll sell the rights to The Sil anytime soon.

Why, what were his thoughts? I haven't heard anything.


@Eral: Hey, I like the movies too, but I mean come on. They're movies!

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2004, 03:28:29 PM »
Considering how he felt about making LotR into movies, I don't think he'll sell the rights to The Sil anytime soon.

Why, what were his thoughts? I haven't heard anything.

He hated the idea, and I think if he could have stopped it from being made, he would have. When his son, Simon Tolkien, suggested it might be a good idea to cooperate with the production in the hopes that a faithful version of the book might be made, they had such a serious falling out that they're still not speaking to one another.

Weird, huh? Must be a British thing.  ;)

Offline Dark Raven

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2004, 03:47:01 PM »
Stodgy Christopher Tolkien would have made a lot of enemies if he would have caused trouble with the film being made. I know he is protective of his dads work.  He should be fortunate that the movies were made very close to the book. Since his dad did sell the writes to it, any one could have picked up the writes to it and made a screwed up version of the movie.
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Offline Kish

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2004, 04:04:40 PM »
@Eral: Hey, I like the movies too, but I mean come on. They're movies!
And you're posting on a forum dedicated to modding a four-year-old game.
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2004, 04:46:30 PM »

Let me get this straight...you think Faramir as depicted in the movie is an evil, self-centered bastard because he acts in a way consistent with his POV as a Ranger of Ithilien, and doesn't react to the hobbits in a way that is advantageous to them in the completion of their quest. Even though he had no way of knowing about their quest before he met them and had no reason to trust them or believe they were telling the truth. Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.

The idea that Shelob somehow 'wronged' the hobbits is also a very bizarre one, IMO. "Wronged", to my mind, implies unfair or unjust treatment. Shelob's attack on the hobbits had absolutely nothing to do with fair or unfair, she is a evil creature who acted completely within her nature. That's like saying that being hit by lightning is "unfair". Sure it sucks, but how is it 'unjust'?

Yes, I talk gibberish most of the time. Me = tailchewing monkey, you = Gandalf. :)

Maybe I should have sprinkled more smilies into my previous posts.

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BTW, while we're on the subject of Faramir, explain please why book-Faramir seemed absolutely immune to the temptations of the Ring, when just as good-hearted, but much more powerful characters like Galadriel and Gandalf were not?

I do have an answer for this, but fear it will be microanalysed, requiring me to explain my viewpoint yet again, which will require me to explain, etc etc etc. So I won't post. (Which means you win this argument. Yay for you!) :D

But you'll have to ask Tolkien.


Disclaimer: My tone is intended to be light-hearted, slightly weary and banterish, not sarcastic, though it may come across this way in text form.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 04:56:47 PM by cliffette »

Offline Eral

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2004, 05:28:50 PM »
It's good to see so many 6's coming out of the woodwork.
I am not at all surprised that Jester is a 6, but you too Veloxyll? :D

I have come to the conclusion that sense of humour affects your rating, and may lead to a skewing of results.
With your permission, Cliffette,as it's your brilliant idea, those of us who have not suffered from that painful affliction, necrosis of the funnybone, which can only be treated by a complete humourectomy, may need to use a slash to indicate their position. e.g 2/5, 4/6. I would hate for the scale to be inaccurate.

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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2004, 08:58:37 PM »

The only reason the ending was long was because of crap cinematography. He used too many fadeouts and they were too long. And the stupid reunion scene. GAH!

I'm not a big fan of the slo-mo reunion scene either, and I'd be the first to admit that the editing and transitions in the post-Mt. Doom part of RotK were not ideal. However, I don't see what that has to do with the length of movie. Those types of changes wouldn't reduce the actual length of the movie much at all--seconds at most.

Ahh, but it's at the end of the movie, so it'll make the end feel like it drags and makes it feel longer.
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The Scouring of the Shire rather changes the story though. With it, you have the War of the Ring spilling over to every area of Middle Earth (especially when coupled with the fact that the Elves and Dwarves were being attacked as well).

I agree it would have been nice to see how the war with Sauron affected the other parts of ME. I would have liked to have had a quick montage of scenes of elves, dwarves and men fighting Sauron's armies with significant landmarks, like say, The Lonely Mountain, in the background. Maybe PJ thought it would be confusing to non book-readers or a distraction from the main story, I don't know why he didn't do it, but I'm okay with the decision.
Yeah, not showing the fights with the Elves and Dwarves is acceptable. re showing the Lonely mountain though, how would we know it's the lonely mountain? Never having seen it before and all :)

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Showing the Scouring is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, however. Since we have seen more of the Shire than the other lands, and we know that hobbits are not exactly "renowned as great warriors", I think they would have had to spend considerable time showing how the hobbits got into the situation and got out of it. That takes time. I don't see how they could adequately do the SofS in less than 20-30 minutes of screen time. But the biggest problem is the timing of the Scouring.  The climax of the movie was done, and the action needed to be wrapped up. Introducing a whole new set of conflicts and adding another 1/2 hour of action oriented material to the end would have ruined the pace of the movie and distracted from the real climax, IMO.
Most of the scouring isn't action. There's one short fight, and the death of Sauruman IIRC. Of course not having the rangers show up means there's no reason for the Bree scene, which explained a lot of what went wrong rather quickly IIRC.

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The way it's in the film implies that a) Saurons army was a lot smaller than in the books, b) It wasn't large enough to take all of Middle Earth, c) he didn't realise there were plains to the north of the Black Gate.

Huh? Sauron's army looked enormous compared to Aragorn's troops, and since we hadn't been shown any large armies in ME other than the ones in Rohan and Gondor, to me it looked like they could easily sweep them aside and go on to conquer the rest of the continent.
All the armies looked enormous in the movie. Remember though that the Mordor Orcs were in a loose formation so there weren't as many as it appeared (based on what we see in the charge scene. The only way they could've maintained such a charge, which is backed up by visual evidence from the film, is if the Orcs were in a loose formation allowing the horses to regain some of their speed between Orcs, and not having them pile up as well. I wasn't a real fan of the lack of Gondors provinces either (their lands to the south that provided quite a few troops, and the army that came up on the Corsair ships).
And remember Saurons army only consisted of Orcs :P

Or Minas Tirith being vulnerable to catapaults...

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Honestly, I have no clue what you mean about not realizing that there were plains to the north of the Black Gate.

Mostly that he could've launched armies against the Northen lands without going through Minas Tirith.
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Offline discharger12

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2004, 09:55:32 PM »
@Eral: Hey, I like the movies too, but I mean come on. They're movies!
And you're posting on a forum dedicated to modding a four-year-old game.

Hey, you can't beat the classics, can you?  :pirate

Especially when the future brings wonderful suprises.

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2004, 10:21:13 PM »

Yes, I talk gibberish most of the time. Me = tailchewing monkey, you = Gandalf. :)

Maybe I should have sprinkled more smilies into my previous posts.

I do have an answer for this, but fear it will be microanalysed, requiring me to explain my viewpoint yet again, which will require me to explain, etc etc etc. So I won't post. (Which means you win this argument. Yay for you!) :D

But you'll have to ask Tolkien.

Disclaimer: My tone is intended to be light-hearted, slightly weary and banterish, not sarcastic, though it may come across this way in text form.

Hmm, I'm kind of at a loss here. How was I supposed to respond to your post? Ignore it? Assume you didn't mean what you were saying? Seems like you and Eral have set up a no-win situation for me here; you make points I disagree with, but if I try to actually address the points you've made, I'm taking it too seriously and don't have a sense of humor.

Silly me, I thought since you were posting your opinion you might actually might to discuss it. Next time, just flag it "NO DISAGREEMENT, PLEASE" or something. Sheesh.

Offline jcompton

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2004, 11:19:49 PM »
that painful affliction, necrosis of the funnybone, which can only be treated by a complete humourectomy

My medical advisors have asked me to point out that there's no need to drastically accuse another of having rotting flesh just because one's unique sense of humor isn't shared by all.
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Offline cliffette

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2004, 11:36:50 PM »
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Hmm, I'm kind of at a loss here. How was I supposed to respond to your post? Ignore it? Assume you didn't mean what you were saying? Seems like you and Eral have set up a no-win situation for me here; you make points I disagree with, but if I try to actually address the points you've made, I'm taking it too seriously and don't have a sense of humor.

Silly me, I thought since you were posting your opinion you might actually might to discuss it. Next time, just flag it "NO DISAGREEMENT, PLEASE" or something. Sheesh.

I haven't actually consciously set up any situation for you. You were free to disagree with me, as I was free to explain myself and disagree with you. All my points have been on the defensive and are explaining myself, thus I have given your responses the respect they deserve.

However - I didn't originally post in this thread to argue or to debate. I pointed out some differences that Eral missed, you disgreed, I explained my point, you disagreed with my wording, I explained my point again, you disagreed with my wording, so I gave up before it led to another round.

I am saying that I don't have the heart to continue arguing this with you and was trying to indicate this to you through my warped sense of humour, because you seem to have misinterpreted the tone of all my posts, which slid from earnest and non-combative to flippant and non-combative, all of which indicated my unpreparedness to enter a heated debate.

Basically, I don't want you to waste your time, effort and energy in arguing these points with someone who is not a worthy opponent, being unversed in most of the books or the lore. You've targeted the wrong person (or people) for your debate. I applaud your passion, but that doesn't change the fact that to continue this with me would be a fruitless exercise.

Therefore I have folded my cards and am leaving the table. I understand how this will leave you feeling all fired up with nowhere to go, but it's really for the sake of your sanity and my own. I will repeat- we should agree to disagree. Can we shake on this?



Eral - all I can say is that she's sending herself up about 100% of the time. I guess it's up to her to explain herself otherwise. :)

And you may ignore my post if you wish. I am sorry if I have insulted you or frustrated you.

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2004, 12:14:56 AM »
Therefore I have folded my cards and am leaving the table. I understand how this will leave you feeling all fired up with nowhere to go, but it's really for the sake of your sanity and my own. I will repeat- we should agree to disagree. Can we shake on this?

Fine. It was never my intention to provoke a fight, I just like debating about this stuff.

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Eral - all I can say is that she's sending herself up about 100% of the time. I guess it's up to her to explain herself otherwise. :)

And you may ignore my post if you wish. I am sorry if I have insulted you or frustrated you.

BTW, I wouldn't have gotten so frustrated by your responses if you and Eral hadn't been tittering behind your hands about what a humorless dink I am, as you still seem to be doing above. Just a hint here, but if you want someone to believe you're sincere, it might be better to move the snarky little inside jokes at their expense to PM.

Offline cliffette

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2004, 12:34:26 AM »
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about what a humorless dink I am, as you still seem to be doing above
I'm not. You're reading too much into it. Maybe my tone appears patronising, but I've written a few hundred more words than I intended to and put alot of effort and time into my post, which should indicate to you that I genuinely do not want hard feelings between us and wish to give you the respect and explanation you deserve. Beyond that, I can do no more.

Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2004, 01:24:11 AM »
I'm not. You're reading too much into it. Maybe my tone appears patronising, but I've written a few hundred more words than I intended to and put alot of effort and time into my post, which should indicate to you that I genuinely do not want hard feelings between us and wish to give you the respect and explanation you deserve. Beyond that, I can do no more.

Yes, you did put a lot of time and effort into your post, which is why that comment to Eral surprised me.

But no matter. I agree that at this point, we have both put too much time and effort into what should have been a minor disagreement. Consider the subject dropped.

However, I am a little bummed that this thread got sidetracked into a movie vs book discussion. (And yes, I'm to blame as much as anyone) Tthe OP had a lot of interesting questions about the backstory to LotR.

Offline Kish

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2004, 01:52:02 AM »
Yes, you did put a lot of time and effort into your post, which is why that comment to Eral surprised me..
You mean this?
Eral - all I can say is that she's sending herself up about 100% of the time. I guess it's up to her to explain herself otherwise. :)
If so, I think you may be misunderstanding, though I read that the same way you did at first.  I think she meant it to be about Eral to you, rather than to Eral about you.
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Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2004, 09:51:04 AM »
Yes, you did put a lot of time and effort into your post, which is why that comment to Eral surprised me..
You mean this?
Eral - all I can say is that she's sending herself up about 100% of the time. I guess it's up to her to explain herself otherwise. :)
If so, I think you may be misunderstanding, though I read that the same way you did at first.  I think she meant it to be about Eral to you, rather than to Eral about you.

Yes, that's what I meant, and I must confess that alternative interpretation never even occured to me. I guess it might have helped if I'd noticed that Eral is also female.  :)

Offline jcompton

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2004, 11:30:47 AM »
...however, for the record, I was able to read it correctly the first time.

So. How 'bout them elves?
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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2004, 12:02:41 PM »
We hates them, nasties!
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Offline SeanFan

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2004, 01:16:09 PM »
...however, for the record, I was able to read it correctly the first time.

Yes, yes, we all bow to your greatness.  :)

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So. How 'bout them elves?

Actually, I am interested in why cliffette doesn't like elves much. I don't have a strong opinion on them either way, but as I noted in the thread about The Silmarillion, the picture you get of them in The Sil is very different than you get just reading LotR or seeing the movies.

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2004, 02:26:20 PM »
I have a question... :)

Seeing as how I've watched the ROTK:EE about six times so far, something still bothers me, and I was talking about it last night with my friends while we watched it...

Why did Frodo have to leave to the Undying Lands? One friend said "Well he's seen to much...", which to me isn't really an explaination. I mean Sam has been to the same places that he has and Merry and Pippin undoubtably saw more terrible things in the middle of a war...

Another friend suggested that since he had been touched by Sauron, he had some of his evil inside of him, and it could come back... But I feel that isn't explicitly said, so that's not a complete explaination to me.

Yet another person there said something to the effect "Well when he got stabbed he got a little bit of evil in him, and if he doesn't leave with the elves, the magic they used to keep him alive will go away and he'll die." Well to me isn't adequately explained either and doesn't stand up as an explaination. I mean if that were true then wouldn't that mean anyone who was wounded by a Morgul weapon, like that wielded by the Witch King, (i.e. Eowyn) would die as soon as the person who healed it died?

One thing I was thinking about was that it was some sort of 'reward'... Like since he carried he ring in order to destroy it, then he was to be rewarded with everlasting life (kind of like Bilbo). But maybe it's because I never quite understood the Undying Lands, other than the literal connotation of the name, that I'm having this problem...

So I was thinking, since some folks here obviously have knowledge of the books and the movies which surpasses my own, that you could give me a little insight into the reasoning behind Frodo leaving. Maybe it's something that is explained better in the books? Maybe it's something that I missed in the movies?

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Offline WolfCatBot

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Re: Lord of the Rings questions! (Spoilers!)
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2004, 02:47:17 PM »
Whooaaaaaaaa what happened to the threaddd? ;_; The wonderful, glorioussssss threaddddddddd ;_;

Ok anyway!

That elf guy who died was named Haldir, umm... was he a book guy? I thought that was sad too, him dying reminded me of a Star Trek ensign. :'(

Ummm, isn't Shelob Neutral instead of evil? Or is she a spider... from HELL!? ;_;

Ummm ummm, I kind of want to know what's wrong with the elfies, too. I thought they were cools! I wish their specialty was halberdness instead of archery, but I don't know why. Did anyone have a halberd in the movies? :( I wanted to see some. :(

I hated that scene where Legolas takes down an Oliphaunt, ugghhughh. ;_; That last part seemed so unnecessary (The riders had already been OWNED), but my brother in law said it's so the Oliphaunt didn't wander around trampling on people. So ok... but stop snowboarding, Legolas!!!!

Oh, oh! I kind of remember samurai guys at the scene where Sam and Frodo find the Black Gate. Where'd they goooo???? Are they the ones who attacked the dwarves or something?

I liked Faramir still! Uhhhh, is it bad to like him in the movie? Anyway, I did!

What's the scouring of the Shire? Were they attacked or something? The place looked fine at the end of the movie I think, ummm. Do the hobbits have an army?

Why am I so interested in the Haradrim? :(

Sorry for the random list of replies to lots of different posts! But everyone said a lotttt of things!

Oh wait, I just remembered something! Thank you "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." warning! You are a true friend!

I thought it was reallyyyyy really weird that Sam left Frodo when Frodo told him to. He already heard Gollum talk about killing them and getting the ring (Or was it only one of those two? I think it was both.), so that was pretty uhhh... yeah. But when I think about what else he should have done, I have no idea. Umm. And because he went down, he found the foodses. And meow, not sure what I'm tryinnngggg to say!

Did the Rohan really do bad things to the people with the funny teeth? The uhhh... I think they were just called wildmen. That doesn't sound like the Rohan, unless they did it when Theoden was zombified. ;_;
It was called victim. :D