Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?

[NiGHTMARE]

Gee, I didn't think being raped or not was a "tiny little, easily explainable detail."

Uh, I said that not every tiny little, easily explainable detail was a retcon; I didn't say that every retcon was a tiny little, easily explainable detail.

Bhaal... not aware of Alaundo's prophecies? Er, he's a god, right? How on earth would he not know every prophecy involving him?

Gods in D&D are not omnipotent or omniscient. If he'd have known that Alaundo's prophecy said that a Bhaalspawn would end replacing rather than resurrecting him, something tells me Bhaal would have tried to come up with a different plan.  It would also mean that Tamoko was wrong, which I'm sure would piss off Kish quite a bit .

IIRC Bhaal was sleeping around before the Time of Troubles

It's pretty obvious that he was doing that, but BG1 and ToB both specifically say that it happened during the ToT.

What the hell else aside from Rape is 'Forced Upon' supposed to mean?!

Threatened to kill all those she holds dear if she doesn't willingly submit? Used a charm spell?

[SimDing0™]

WARNING FOR THE FAINT-HEARTED: ADVANCED SEMANTICS BEGIN HERE.

[Kish]

Gee, I didn't think being raped or not was a "tiny little, easily explainable detail."

Uh, I said that not every tiny little, easily explainable detail was a retcon; I didn't say that every retcon was a tiny little, easily explainable detail.

And you were protesting...exactly what being declared a retcon, now?

Bhaal... not aware of Alaundo's prophecies? Er, he's a god, right? How on earth would he not know every prophecy involving him?

Gods in D&D are not omnipotent or omniscient.

They are, however, literate.

If he'd have known that Alaundo's prophecy said that a Bhaalspawn would end replacing rather than resurrecting him, something tells me Bhaal would have tried to come up with a different plan.  It would also mean that Tamoko was wrong, which I'm sure would piss off Kish quite a bit .

Once again--Alaundo's prophecy says one of Bhaal's children must gain supremacy over the others.  In BG1, that means whichever one proves the most like Bhaal gets to become his new avatar.  Only in ToB does it mean that one of them will actually replace him.

IIRC Bhaal was sleeping around before the Time of Troubles

It's pretty obvious that he was doing that, but BG1 and ToB both specifically say that it happened during the ToT.

Where, pray tell?

What the hell else aside from Rape is 'Forced Upon' supposed to mean?!

Threatened to kill all those she holds dear if she doesn't willingly submit? Used a charm spell?

Either of which would qualify as "rape," and neither of which is at all compatible with "I raised my arms up and hailed my Lord of Murder with great joy at my fate."

[Caedwyr]

Not to take sides, but

IIRC Bhaal was sleeping around before the Time of Troubles

It's pretty obvious that he was doing that, but BG1 and ToB both specifically say that it happened during the ToT.

Where, pray tell?

You can find the specific section in this

During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny.

Since days of the Avatars likely means the Time of Troubles, I'd say this is pretty explicit as to when Bhaal was doing the dirty deeds.

[Veloxyll]

IIRC somewhere in a History of Faerun book or something it said that Bhaal came down early. I really forget where, I read so much it just mashes together and all I remember is what it said, not where it was.

[fallen demon]

could forced upon be metiforical or something Gorion believes?
Maybe he considered bhaal's doctrane to be forced upon your mother.
Maybe he refused to admit that she chose to serve bhaal rather than be like him, so he believes bhaal must have forced himself upon her.

[Kish]

Not to take sides, but
You can find the specific section in this

During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny.

Since days of the Avatars likely means the Time of Troubles, I'd say this is pretty explicit as to when Bhaal was doing the dirty deeds.

But where is that from?  (Seriously--I don't think I've ever seen that sentence before this thread.)

IIRC somewhere in a History of Faerun book or something it said that Bhaal came down early. I really forget where,

The BG2 intro says that Bhaal "walked the world before he was made to," in reference to the creation of the Children of Bhaal.

could forced upon be metiforical or something Gorion believes?

Anything's possible  The question is, is that more likely than that it's just a retcon?

[fallen demon]

I suppose it might, but i don't see why it has to be, and i prefear to be able to put a workable plot in my head, wheather or not it's what the developers intended.

edit: I think it's more that you don't like the direction the plot took (which is perfectly legitimate, ToB's plot was kinda weak) then it not working.

[fallen demon]

the quote which says that the bhaalspawn will be made during the time of avatars is from the prophesies which were quoted earlier in this thread.  and yes, that does form a plothole with soa, not to mention that exlusivly using information from the soa manual one can discover that it says all bhaalspawn should be 11 in bg-II, which i sure as hell hope isn't the case.

[NiGHTMARE]

And you were protesting...exactly what being declared a retcon, now?

Now I'm not saying that ToB doesn't have retcons, but it does (and no, before you accuse me of it, this is not a sudden change of opinion - I've never said there are no retcons in ToB).  But some of the changes to the storyline that you've accussed ToB of either make perfect sense, or simply don't exist.

An instance of something which makes sense is the whole Sarevok thing.  The only beliefs & knowledge he has in ToB which differ from those he had in BG1, are things he'd have to be exceptionally stupid to still think were true, f.ex that the "winner" will be him.  Since Sarevok has above average wisdom and intelligence, I would not consider him particularly stupid.  Attempting to depict him as such would be a retcon .

The idea that ToB changes Bhaal's intentions regarding whether he'll be resurrected or replace is an example of something that simply doesn't exist.  As I have already pointed out in this thread, ToB does NOT alter the fact that it was Bhaal's intention to be resurrected.  The version of events prensted by ToB still indicate that Bhaal wishes to be reborn, and the fact that he is not is because his high priestess (who is apparently vital to the process) has decided to betray him and try to claim the mantle of godhood for herself.  It is not due to a change in the established storyline, and hence is not a retcon.

They are, however, literate.

And why exactly should he bother reading some stupid prophecy made by some pathetic little mortal?

Once again--Alaundo's prophecy says one of Bhaal's children must gain supremacy over the others.  In BG1, that means whichever one proves the most like Bhaal gets to become his new avatar.  Only in ToB does it mean that one of them will actually replace him.

Nope, sorry.  In this case, it sounds like it's you who's attempting to retcon BG1 .  Since you seem to have missed them, here are the prophecies from BG1 again, this time with relevant points highlighted:

"During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny.  These offspring will be aligned good and evil, but chaos will flow through them all.  When the Beast's bastard children come of age, they will bring havoc to the lands of the Sword Coast.  One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy.  This inheritor will shape the history of the Sword Coast for centuries to come......"

"The spawn of the Lord of Murder are fated to come into their inheritance through bloodshed and misery.  It is the hope of their father that only one shall remain alive to inherit his legacy.  I foresee that the children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre."

The prophecies do not say that Bhaal will be resurrected, they say that one of the children will replace him.  Again, these two prophecies are from BG1, not ToB.  As I said before, it probably was Bhaal's intention for his children to cause his resurrection (though the second prophecy disagrees with even this), but Alaundo foresaw that this intention would not be fulfilled.

Where, pray tell?

In the first of the two prophecies quoted above.  They are 6485 and 6486 if you want to make sure I'm not making them up.

[Quitch]

Er... nope. Not assumed. Got from Gorion: his lover, raped by Bhaal, died in childbed. A mighty long  shot from 'Bhaal's priestess who wanted her child be sacrificed and killed by Gorion'. And yes, I know that one can make a convoluted 'tie-it-in for BioWARE' soap opera with PC's mother being both this and that, but it all boils down to one thing - w/o checking BG1 material ToB substituted a cliche for a worst cliche. If only that was the only downfall of ToB 

Hang on a second, Gorion writes a note and that must be the truth?  Hah!  Try and exercise a little imagination!

[Ghreyfain]

Er... nope. Not assumed. Got from Gorion: his lover, raped by Bhaal, died in childbed. A mighty long shot from 'Bhaal's priestess who wanted her child be sacrificed and killed by Gorion'. And yes, I know that one can make a convoluted 'tie-it-in for BioWARE' soap opera with PC's mother being both this and that, but it all boils down to one thing - w/o checking BG1 material ToB substituted a cliche for a worst cliche. If only that was the only downfall of ToB

Hang on a second, Gorion writes a note and that must be the truth? Hah! Try and exercise a little imagination!

Gorion is the stereotypical wise, kind, gentle old man that takes in the orphan.  He's not lying.  Stereotypical wise, kind, gentle old men do not lie.

The only power greater than Semantics is Stereotypes, so ha to you all.

[Neffra]

And why exactly should he bother reading some stupid prophecy made by some pathetic little mortal?

This 'pathetic little mortal' is actually the pathetic little mortal that named the Roll of Years many centuries before the defining events within these years occured and correctly predicted many events in the future of Faerun/Toril. Any god that is foolish enough to dismiss such a powerful seer on the basis of the seer's lowliness is truly shortsighted and blind. I can't find any canon info to back it up, but it makes one wonder if Bhaal read Alaundo's prophecies and saw the seeds of truth within them. Ditto Bane. You can't make the mistake of thinking that the Gods are totally dismissive of the mortal world. They'd fade away and die if they were as have many in the past.

[Kish]

"During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny.  These offspring will be aligned good and evil, but chaos will flow through them all.  When the Beast's bastard children come of age, they will bring havoc to the lands of the Sword Coast.  One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy.  This inheritor will shape the history of the Sword Coast for centuries to come......"

"The spawn of the Lord of Murder are fated to come into their inheritance through bloodshed and misery.  It is the hope of their father that only one shall remain alive to inherit his legacy.  I foresee that the children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre."

The prophecies do not say that Bhaal will be resurrected, they say that one of the children will replace him.

Well done.  You've exactly matched Sarevok's understanding of the prophecies.

In the first of the two prophecies quoted above.  They are 6485 and 6486 if you want to make sure I'm not making them up.

I don't think that's necessary.  I believe you; it does indeed say "during the days of the Avatars."

I can't find any canon info to back it up, but it makes one wonder if Bhaal read Alaundo's prophecies and saw the seeds of truth within them. Ditto Bane.

They apparently recognized that their lives would be in danger by some method, or they wouldn't have prepared for them.

[Quitch]

Er... nope. Not assumed. Got from Gorion: his lover, raped by Bhaal, died in childbed. A mighty long shot from 'Bhaal's priestess who wanted her child be sacrificed and killed by Gorion'. And yes, I know that one can make a convoluted 'tie-it-in for BioWARE' soap opera with PC's mother being both this and that, but it all boils down to one thing - w/o checking BG1 material ToB substituted a cliche for a worst cliche. If only that was the only downfall of ToB

Hang on a second, Gorion writes a note and that must be the truth? Hah! Try and exercise a little imagination!

Gorion is the stereotypical wise, kind, gentle old man that takes in the orphan.  He's not lying.  Stereotypical wise, kind, gentle old men do not lie.

The only power greater than Semantics is Stereotypes, so ha to you all.

And if he was a really good liar, or lied in a moment of deep shame, or wrote the note long ago and forgot all about it (perhaps at a time when he couldn't bring himself to face the truth), or perhaps he believed that is what happened but someone had changed his memories...

That, or Solar lies.  Yeah, we all wish the ToB team had actually played BG1, but there you go.

[SimDing0™]

Maybe I'm missing something (okay, I'm probably missing something; I know the plots worse than anyone*), but... if I were a priestess of Bhaal in my spare time, I wouldn't tell my lover what I got up to at weekends.

* "Anyone" may be read as "anyone worth a mention". I suspect I know more about BG2 than Bryad.

[Quitch]

I always thought that to gel the two stories, Gorion has to have been a worshiper of Bhaal.  At the last second, he gets cold feet, kills his lover (the priestess) and snatches you away.  He writes the note soon after, but can't bring himself to admit what he was, while Solar tells you the events in the temple, but doesn't go further back, which would have revealed the past of Gorion.

Anyone else think of alternate stories that get the games to work?

[Echon]

I am not too concerned with that. I prefer to stick with what I like (BG) and ignore what I do not like (ToB).

-Echon

[NiGHTMARE]

Even ignoring ToB, Gorion cannot possibly know that Bhaal forced himself upon all those women, that's just Mr. G's personal opinion.

[Hendryk]

I always thought that to gel the two stories, Gorion has to have been a worshiper of Bhaal.  At the last second, he gets cold feet, kills his lover (the priestess) and snatches you away.  He writes the note soon after, but can't bring himself to admit what he was, while Solar tells you the events in the temple, but doesn't go further back, which would have revealed the past of Gorion.

Anyone else think of alternate stories that get the games to work?

The Harpers strive for information above all else.  Gorion could have been given the task of infiltrating Bhaal's cult and begun that by pretending an admiration for the PC's mother that, eventually, became more-or-less genuine.  But when the crisis of the ritual to restore Bhaal came along, he chose Duty over affection but the choice left him with severely conflicted guilts.  Hence, his tender care of the young PC, his waffling note in BG1, etc.  It wasn't about what he thought the PC should know or could bear to know.  It was all he could bring himself to admit.

[cliffette]

Anyone else think of alternate stories that get the games to work?

Coming from someone who hasn't actually memorised any of the BG lore,

i) When I got to the exposition about Alianna, I assumed that the ToB story was true.
ii) But Charname had always thought her mum was a good lady (I tend to play good characters).
iii) So Gorion was trying to protect Charname in his letter one final time. After all, it doesn't make a difference to Charname's destiny whether Alianna willfully submitted or was raped. Thus Gorion sought to let Charname live with the white lie that her mum was not a Bhaal worshipper.

OR

iv) Charname chose to believe that the vision of Alianna was yet another Master Wraith-like encounter. Thus Gorion's letter was true, and the Alianna incident was another test.

As for Sarevok,

i) In BG, Sarevok had the wrong idea due to dodgy wording in Alaundo's prophecy (which can be taken to mean either of the interpretations that have been brought forward. Prophets are notoriously vague in their descriptions.)
ii) After dying and spending some time stewing over what went wrong, with the fires of his ambition no longer creating smoke to cloud his vision, he figured out what the prophecy actually meant and got it right. Thus in ToB, he has a better idea what is going on.

[NiGHTMARE]

The thing is, the interpretation of the prophecies that Bhaal won't be resurrected is actually correct - Bhaal doesn't get resurrected.  Whether it was Bhaal's intention to be resurrected or not is a seperate matter entirely.

[cliffette]

The thing is, the interpretation of the prophecies that Bhaal won't be resurrected is actually correct - Bhaal doesn't get resurrected.  Whether it was Bhaal's intention to be resurrected or not is a seperate matter entirely.

Gah! I think BG3 should be about finding Alaundo and smacking him around.

[Veloxyll]

The thing is, the interpretation of the prophecies that Bhaal won't be resurrected is actually correct - Bhaal doesn't get resurrected.  Whether it was Bhaal's intention to be resurrected or not is a seperate matter entirely.

Gah! I think BG3 should be about finding Alaundo and smacking him around.

BEST...PLOT-CONCEPT...EVAR

[Kish]

Gah! I think BG3 should be about finding Alaundo and smacking him around.

BEST...PLOT-CONCEPT...EVAR

I concur.