Author Topic: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?  (Read 23573 times)

Offline CORVIS TERRIBLE MOUNTAIN GOD

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2004, 04:57:47 PM »
Bondari doesn't seem too popular on this forum, yet he is often quoted as one of peoples favourite parts of ToB which goes to show just how in touch with the wants of players this forum is :)

If the players are that stupid I don't see any reason to try and please them, though a modder I am not. Well. Not untill I finish my Monty Python TC, anyway.

It ought to be right up your alley.

Offline discharger12

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2004, 06:30:36 PM »
I would consider ToB just an expensive "okay" addon.

No doubt (and someone might have said this) it was just a quick way to make some money.

Really though (and someone may have said this too) if you want to see what happends in the end, play this game.

... and remember that alot of the mods require ToB stuff.

Offline Quitch

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2004, 07:22:33 AM »
Bondari doesn't seem too popular on this forum, yet he is often quoted as one of peoples favourite parts of ToB which goes to show just how in touch with the wants of players this forum is :)

If the players are that stupid I don't see any reason to try and please them

Why, do you intend to release art house mods?

There are two ghouls in RtW that I suspect you will hate... though then again that might be the general feeling once it's released :)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 07:26:09 AM by Quitch »
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Offline Echon

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2004, 07:25:38 AM »
Bondari doesn't seem too popular on this forum, yet he is often quoted as one of peoples favourite parts of ToB which goes to show just how in touch with the wants of players this forum is :)

I believe most modders are busy making mods they want to play with themselves.

-Echon

Offline Quitch

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2004, 07:26:57 AM »
Bondari doesn't seem too popular on this forum, yet he is often quoted as one of peoples favourite parts of ToB which goes to show just how in touch with the wants of players this forum is :)

I believe most modders are busy making mods they want to play with themselves.

-Echon

I don't know about that.  Modders make mods they like the idea of, but once you've finished making them the last thing you want to do is play the bloody thing :)
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Offline Echon

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2004, 07:31:14 AM »
Really? That is what I am looking forward to.

-Echon
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 07:47:14 AM by Echon »

Offline Quitch

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2004, 07:34:42 AM »
Pardon?
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Offline Echon

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2004, 07:47:33 AM »
Playing the mod.

-Echon

Offline Quitch

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2004, 11:05:40 AM »
Maybe at the beginning, but by the time you've designed it, created it, tested and bugfixed it, you just want a lie down.
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Offline Lord Kain

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2004, 10:49:05 AM »
they never changed the story about Gorion and your mother. THEY never had one before ToB. A few lines on what your character assumed in BG1 it not a anything.
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Offline Ashara

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2004, 12:08:15 PM »
Er... nope. Not assumed. Got from Gorion: his lover, raped by Bhaal, died in childbed. A mighty long  shot from 'Bhaal's priestess who wanted her child be sacrificed and killed by Gorion'. And yes, I know that one can make a convoluted 'tie-it-in for BioWARE' soap opera with PC's mother being both this and that, but it all boils down to one thing - w/o checking BG1 material ToB substituted a cliche for a worst cliche. If only that was the only downfall of ToB  ;D
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2004, 12:16:53 PM »
It's only four words in BG1 which conflict with ToB: "she died in childbirth".  Everything else said about Gorion and your mother in the two games could all be true.

Really, saying that trying to combine the two versions of events is turning things into a soap opera is just silly.  There have been countless times in real life where someone has betrayed a person who loved them, and the person who was betrayed has gone into denial about it.  That doesn't turn real life into a soap opera, now does it?

People change.  People fall in and out of love.  People betray other people.  All of these are facts of life, not soap operas.  If you don't think such things happen in the real world, then I'm sorry but you're just nieve.

Anyway, if you want to compare a merge of events as a soap opera, what does that make the BG1 version of events re: Gorion & your mother? I'd say something out of a fantasy novel aimed at "Young Adults" - i.e. boring, clichéd, completely run-of-the-mill, and far from the author's best work.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 12:27:27 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Kish

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2004, 12:47:27 PM »
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Er... nope. Not assumed. Got from Gorion: his lover, raped by Bhaal, died in childbed. A mighty long  shot from 'Bhaal's priestess who wanted her child be sacrificed and killed by Gorion'.
In fact, I believe there are more words in the BG1 backstory than there are in the ToB backstory, though in ToB the words are voiced while in BG1 they're in Gorion's letter.
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It's only four words in BG1 which conflict with ToB: "she died in childbirth".  Everything else said about Gorion and your mother in the two games could all be true.
Only four words, hm?  No conflict in your mother in BG1 having been raped, vs. Alianna in ToB experiencing great joy at Bhaal choosing her.  No conflict in Sarevok being set on a self-destructive course in BG1, vs. knowing exactly what you have to do in ToB.
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People change.  People fall in and out of love.  People betray other people.  All of these are facts of life, not soap operas.  If you don't think such things happen in the real world, then I'm sorry but you're just nieve.
And if you think only four words stop the square peg of ToB's retcons from fitting into the round hole of BG1's backstory...
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2004, 12:53:13 PM »
Only four words, hm?  No conflict in your mother in BG1 having been raped, vs. Alianna in ToB experiencing great joy at Bhaal choosing her.  No conflict in Sarevok being set on a self-destructive course in BG1, vs. knowing exactly what you have to do in ToB.
BG1 doesn't say your mother was raped.  When I said that's the only conflict between BG1 and ToB, I was blatantly only referring to the circumstances surrounding Gorion and the PC's mother, not anything else.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 12:56:01 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Kish

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2004, 01:09:50 PM »
The letter from Gorion, in BG1, follows, for the benefit of anyone reading who doesn't perfectly remember it:
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[Gorion's Note]Hello <CHARNAME>,
If you are reading this, it means I have met an untimely death.  I would tell you not to grieve for me, but I feel much better thinking that you would.  There are things I must tell you in this letter that I might have told you before.  However, if my death came too soon then I would have never been given the chance.  First off, I am not your biological father, for that distinction lies with an entity known as Bhaal.  The Bhaal that I speak of is the one you know of as a divinity.  In the crisis known as the Time of Troubles, when the Gods walked Faerun, Bhaal was also forced into a mortal shell.  He was somehow forewarned of the death that awaited him during this time.  For reasons unknown to me, he sought out women of every race and forced himself upon them.  Your mother was one of those women, and as you know, she died in childbirth. I had been her friend and on occasion, lover.  I felt obligated to raise you as my own.  I have always thought of you as my child and I hope you still think of me as your father.  You are a special child.  The blood of the Gods runs through your veins.  If you make use of our extensive library you will find that our founder, Alaundo, has many prophecies concerning the coming of the spawn of Bhaal.  There are many who will want to use you for their own purposes.  One, a man who calls himself Sarevok, is the worst danger.  He has studied here at Candlekeep and thus knows a great deal about your history and who you are.

Gorion
BG1 doesn't say your mother was raped.
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For reasons unknown to me, he sought out women of every race and forced himself upon them.  Your mother was one of those women,
But I suppose if you read that with one eye while standing on your head, it doesn't say Bhaal raped your mother.
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When I said that's the only conflict between BG1 and ToB, I was blatantly only referring to the circumstances surrounding Gorion and the PC's mother, not anything else.
Admitting that ToB retcons a lot of BG1 stuff while simultaneously arguing in favor of contortions to pretend retcons in one particular area aren't really retcons would be a weak argument indeed.  So are you arguing that ToB doesn't retcon a lot of BG1 backstory, or not?
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2004, 01:12:18 PM »
But I suppose if you read that with one eye while standing on your head, it doesn't say Bhaal raped your mother.
"Forced upon" could all mean all sorts of things besides rape.  Even if it does specifically mean rape, how can Gorion know for sure that Bhaal raped your mother? Unless he was there (which opens up a whole different can of worms), all he has is the PC's mother's word for it - and she's not likely to admit doing it willingly, now is she?

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Admitting that ToB retcons a lot of BG1 stuff while simultaneously arguing in favor of contortions to pretend retcons in one particular area aren't really retcons would be a weak argument indeed.  So are you arguing that ToB doesn't retcon a lot of BG1 backstory, or not?
I'd have thought the fact I said "Everything else said about Gorion and your mother in the two games could all be true" rather than "Everything else said in the two games could all be true" would be an adequate answer.  Saying one aspect of the new information introduced by ToB can't be correct just because other parts aren't is silly.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 01:23:34 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Kish

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2004, 01:27:05 PM »
Saying one aspect of the new information introduced by ToB can't be correct just because other parts aren't is silly.
So you're not claiming ToB doesn't retcon BG1 in general, just that the, ah, explanations you come up with to explain away the conflicts between Gorion's letter and Alianna's ToB story are more likely than "it's another retcon."
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2004, 01:30:09 PM »
Ignoring ToB entirely, how does Gorion know for a fact that the PC's mother was raped? Answer: he doesn't.

Also, does that letter really sound like something Gorion would write? The use of language seems far too basic for a learned scholar, especially one who'd spent the last two decades living in the biggest library in the world.  It also feels far too inpersonal for a "final message" letter from a father to his child.

EDIT: oh, and reading through the ToB dialog, the supposed Sarevok inconsistencies are rather conspicuous by their absence.  The only difference I can see betwee his BG1 and ToB views are that he now realizes he was wrong in thinking the prophecies were about him.  Well, he'd have to pretty bloody stupid to still think they were! :P

It would also stand to reason that if he realized he was wrong in his interpretation of the prophecies re: who they were about, that he was wrong in various other interpretations as well.  A year or so rotting in hell would have given him plenty of time to reflect on the matter...

One other thing: going back to the 'soap opera' issue... "Oh, and by the way your arch enemy is your brother" ISN'T straight out of a soap?!? :D
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 01:44:44 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Kish

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2004, 01:49:15 PM »
Ignoring ToB entirely, how does Gorion know for a fact that the PC's mother was raped? Answer: he doesn't.
Ignoring ToB entirely, why would you even ask the question?  Unless you were planning to write fanfic, or a mod, in which case my reply would be the same thing I'd say to the ToB authors: You get a much stronger story if you work with established backstory than if you ignore it.
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EDIT: oh, and reading through the ToB dialog, the supposed Sarevok inconsistencies are rather conspicuous by their absence.  The only difference I can see betwee his BG1 and ToB views are that he now realizes he was wrong in thinking the prophecies were about him.  Well, he'd have to pretty bloody stupid to still think they were! :P
In BG1, the Children of Bhaal were supposed to fight each other until one emerged as supreme.  This was in Alaundo's prophecies, so Bhaal knew about it, and Tamoko guessed correctly that the prophecy meant he would take over the body of the winner and thus be reborn.  In ToB, apparently, none of the Bhaalspawn were meant to survive their first few days of life.  In BG1, Sarevok set out on a course that would have resulted in his being taken over by Bhaal if he had succeeded, because he desperately wanted to read the prophecies of Alaundo in a way that meant his real father cared about him.  Tamoko helps the PC stop him because she suspects the truth, that obliteration would be Sarevok's reward for success.

Now, I know there are ways all the inconsistencies can be explained away.  ("Gorion was actually Alianna's lover before she became a priestess of Bhaal, and she was both raped by Bhaal and experienced great joy at the prospect of bearing one of the Children of Bhaal, and Bhaal tried to have the Bhaalspawn sacrificed despite knowing they would survive to battle each other as adults, and Sarevok was actually entirely on top of the situation in BG1 because preserving the silly ToB backstory is far more important than how badly making him know what he's doing there weakens the BG1 story and the character of Sarevok, and Tamoko interferes with his plot because she's drunk...")  But really, why is this desirable?  Is saying, "Oh, yeah, it's a retcon" really that painful?
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2004, 01:59:13 PM »
In BG1, the Children of Bhaal were supposed to fight each other until one emerged as supreme.  This was in Alaundo's prophecies, so Bhaal knew about it, and Tamoko guessed correctly that the prophecy meant he would take over the body of the winner and thus be reborn.  In ToB, apparently, none of the Bhaalspawn were meant to survive their first few days of life.  In BG1, Sarevok set out on a course that would have resulted in his being taken over by Bhaal if he had succeeded, because he desperately wanted to read the prophecies of Alaundo in a way that meant his real father cared about him.  Tamoko helps the PC stop him because she suspects the truth, that obliteration would be Sarevok's reward for success.

Yes, I've read that before.  But it doesn't address my point - how does what Sarevok knows in ToB contradict with what he thought he knew in BG1? The thing about the kids not being supposed to survive their first few days of life is not something Sarevok tells you, and it seems to me ToB Sarevok still thinks the winner will be rewarded by Bhaal, only he now knows that the winner isn't going to be him.

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But really, why is this desirable?  Is saying, "Oh, yeah, it's a retcon" really that painful?

It's desirable because, as I've said previously, it actually makes for a superior and more interesting story than BG1's boring, simplistic, and incredibly one-sided (you only have Gorion's version of events to go on) explanation.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 02:12:06 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline Kish

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2004, 02:09:23 PM »
Yes, I've read that before.  But it doesn't answer my question - how does what Sarevok knows in ToB contradict with what he thought he knew in BG1?
The primary contradiction is contained in your sentence.

"What he knew...what he thought he knew."

In BG1 he was wrong.  In ToB he's right.
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The thing about the kids not being supposed to survive their first few days of life is not something Sarevok tells you.
Does that have anything to do with it being a retcon?
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It's desirable because, as I've said previously, it actually makes for a superior and more interesting story than BG1's boring, simplistic, and incredibly one-sided (you only have Gorion's version of events to go on) explanation.
Liking ToB's version better is one thing.  Denying that it's a retcon is quite another.
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Offline NiGHTMARE

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2004, 02:17:13 PM »
In BG1 he was wrong.  In ToB he's right.

No, he's wrong in both instances.  ToB doesn't alter the fact that it's Bhaal's intention for the death of his children to cause his resurrection.  It's the betrayal of Bhaal's high priestess that causes the god not to be reborn, and obviously Sarevok doesn't know anything about that.  Had Mellissan remained loyal, Bhaal would have indeed been reborn through the actions of his children.

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Does that have anything to do with it being a retcon?

Nowhere in BG1 does it say that Bhaal was aware of of Alaundo's prophecies, only that the god knew he would die during the Time of Troubles and tried to do something about it.  BG1 doesn't say Bhaal intended for his children to wage war on one another, only that Alaundo foresaw that they would end up doing so.  Nothing in BG1 contradicts the possibility that it was, in fact, Bhaal's intention for his children to be slaughtered soon after his death... but in D&D, even the intentions of gods do not neccessarily translate into actual future events.

After all, Alaundo's prophecies were what Alaundo thought would happen in the future, not what Bhaal thought would happen in the future.  And before you say "bah that's more retcon nonsense" or whatever, consider this: a war, no matter how large scale, would not benefit a god of murder - it would benefit a god of war (i.e. Tempus).  A massacre of children on the other hand...

Also, consider these Prophecies of Alaundo from BG1:

"During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny.  These offspring will be aligned good and evil, but chaos will flow through them all.  When the Beast's bastard children come of age, they will bring havoc to the lands of the Sword Coast.  One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy.  This inheritor will shape the history of the Sword Coast for centuries to come......"

"The spawn of the Lord of Murder are fated to come into their inheritance through bloodshed and misery.  It is the hope of their father that only one shall remain alive to inherit his legacy.  I foresee that the children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre."

It would appear that in this case, a supposed ToB retcon (i.e. a Bhaalspawn replacing their father instead of causing his resurrection) actually fixes an inconistency within BG1 :P  While it may have been Bhaal's intention for the massacre of his children to cause his resurrection, Alaundo knew the truth - that Bhaal would not be resurrected, rather one of his children would end up taking his place. 

Of course the prophecies flag up another inconsistency in BG1 - if Bhaal spawned his progeny during the Time of Troubles, that would make Sarevok and the PC only 10 or 11 years old :o! Seems the developers screwed up here - maybe someone got the idea that the ToT happened during 1348, rather than 1358? Who knows, but it seems ToB stuck with BG1's idea that the Bhaalspawn were sired during the Time of Troubles as well.

Obviously this is inconsistent with certain lore found elsewhere in ToB (and means the 35th level, father of Aerie's child PC in ToB would only be 12 years old! ::)), but then you can't fault ToB for this when the problem was inherited - this is perhaps an example of a time where there should have been a retcon but wasn't! :D

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Liking ToB's version better is one thing.  Denying that it's a retcon is quite another.

Saying that there are retcons is one thing.  Insisting that every tiny little, easily explainable detail is a retcon is quite another ;D.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 03:13:57 PM by NiGHTMARE »
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Offline neriana

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2004, 04:07:34 PM »
Gee, I didn't think being raped or not was a "tiny little, easily explainable detail."

Bhaal... not aware of Alaundo's prophecies? Er, he's a god, right? How on earth would he not know every prophecy involving him?

Bhaal impregnanting a bunch of priestesses, who then readily and easily sacrifice their babies, is stupid, and not just because it's about the lamest, most simplistic story the ToB people could possibly come up with. Sarevok's father strangled his mother because she was unfaithful, remember? No priestess, no adoption -- Sarevok's mother cheated on his father with an avatar of Bhaal. But what the hell, that's a tiny detail, a fact, so it doesn't matter any more then the fact that the PC's mother was raped and died in childbirth.

ToB's story is every bit as stupid as the Star Wars prequels, and for the same reasons.
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Offline Veloxyll

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2004, 04:30:31 PM »
IIRC Bhaal was sleeping around before the Time of Troubles :)

What the hell else aside from Rape is 'Forced Upon' supposed to mean?!
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Offline Ghreyfain

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Re: Throne of Bhaal Question-Why does it suck?
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2004, 04:40:37 PM »
It's a euphemism for "regaled them with clever witticisms and insightful conversation, leaving them utterly incapable of resisting his suave advances".
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