BALDUR'S GATE GAME MISTAKE

[irenicus]

ahem

dear <charname>
i killed your B**** of a mother who worshiped the b****** of a god Bhaal, i loved her and she loved me and the cow gave birth to the evil lords child well she is a absolute b**** but i did care for you dont go evil  cus i would of wasted my time

Gorion

yeah i see what you mean, it is kind of, well, puts you on a evil track

[Ashara]

Gorion's concern for keeping the PC on the right path may have had something to do with his little white lie in the BG1 letter too.  Knowing that your foster father killed your mother who was high priestess to you dead father might tend to sour some people; undo the good effects that Gorion tried to instill in your upbringing and all that.

that's what I tried to say, but then him telling the truth in ToB was an insanity, because that way PC feels much, much, much betrayed and used and that's right when s/he is standing close to take that Throne. I'd say he'd stick to his initial version in ToB if that was the case

[irenicus]

well it always seams that way

game one- saves the sword coast then they acuse him/her of murder

game two- some git nicks his/her soul

game two (expansion)- used abused and got to choise godship or mortality


poor old life ay?

[NiGHTMARE]

Oh, and to follow up on my original post, yes people will often delude themselves (and consequently others) that something awful happened to the person they love, rather than face the reality that the person they love did something awful.

[irenicus]

Oh, and to follow up on my original post, yes people will often delude themselves (and consequently others) that something awful happened to the person they love, rather than face the reality that the person they love did something awful.

he shouldn't of killed her he should of spared her and tried to change her, not kill her

[NiGHTMARE]

For all we know he may well have tried to change her back many times before that final, fateful encounter.  But when it came to trying to help the woman he loved (especially if she clearly didn't want his help) and saving the life of his lover's innocent child, he had a difficult decision to make.

BTW it would have made a nice addition to the final Sarevok encounter in BG1, if he'd come out with the truth about your mother.

[irenicus]

if i could make mods i would make one adding more about the pc's mother it would make a good mod

[irenicus]

i dont think Gorion loved her enough, and why did elminster follow you? why did he not apear when you find out your heritage WHY didnt he give some indercation or help

[Kish]

And it's not plausible at all that Gorion thinks "your father was an evil god" is something you can handle but "and your mother was one of his priests" is not.  No, they just threw out the BG1 backstory in favor of lots of retcons in ToB.

I thought the storyline followed through Ok, but it may be just my own opinion. I thought Gorion never informed <CHARNAME> of his mother's fate because it would bring up too many questions, which could ultimately lead to his or her discovery of being a Bhaalspawn.

So you think Gorion lied in the letter where he told the PC the PC is a Child of Bhaal because...if he told the truth it could lead to the PC discovering s/he is a Child of Bhaal?

(As Ashara already noted, I see.)

[Ashara]

BTW it would have made a nice addition to the final Sarevok encounter in BG1, if he'd come out with the truth about your mother.

it implies that Sarevok is intimately familiar with both Gorion and Aliana's relationship development that you try to make extremely complicated and introduces a soap-opera feel to the ending of the game...

Just imagine:

(The doors of the Temple in AR0123 open and you see Z MOVIE)

Sarevok: Here stand I your brother and I am going to kill you once and for all, since you screw me up on numerous occasions lately, pup!

(short and to the point)

Wait! I forgot!

Let me put you through the moral torture first!

Remeber that Gorion's letter you got? Well, Gorion in truth was a delusional old man, who bored your mother to death with his goodness and his grey hair. So she decided to try the evil magic and went astray... Unlike all other women, she actually gladly went into Bhaal's avatar's bed and begotten you, my ill-conceived half-<PRO_BROTHERSISTER>.

But that's not the end of the story...

Gorion was chasing her, trying to convert her back every time he caught up with her. But she would not relent.

So when he learnt that she was  pregnant, the old man lost the rest of his wits and imagined that the child she is carrying is actually his and should not be raised as EVIL.

Now, sit down, <CHARNAME>

THE REVELATION is coming.

It was GORION who killed your mother!

Yes, in his half-fanatical, half-mad state he had killed your mother and snatched you away.

*Sighs*

And, yeah, forgot to mention.

I am Alianne's son, just like you. That's how I know it all.

PC:

1. (falling in Sarevok's hands, weeping)
2. O, the Hells! The NINE FLAMING HELLS! Let us fight already!
3. Why do I have a distinctve feeling that the genre request one more revelation?!
4) Are you done with your villan's exposition bit, Sir?

Sarevok (repy to 1, random 50%): YES! My EVIL plan had worked! (kills <CHARNAME>)/game lost
Sarevok (reply to 1, random 50%): (the big spikey man weeps in your arms) the game tries to finish itself off, but has no idea how to without the final battle... CTD results

Sarevok (reply to 2): Yes, yes, I am getting to that! (game proceedes as normal)

Sarevok (reply to 3): *Yawns* Indeed (yawns) Remember Imoen? She's our sister too... (the game freezes, and you can almost see the expression of confusion on the avatars)

Sarevok (reply to 4): Pretty much. Shall we? (game proceedes as normal)

[jester]

I think that would definitely be UB for BG1. A few subtle hints would really be stirring and welcome, I guess.

[Ashara]

Well, I would not want my BG1 tempered in favour of making it consistent with what I consider an inferrior game BG1 has plenty of encounters that hint, if not tell you outright what is afoot. The Chanters in CK, Lord Foreshadow, Arkushule,  Koveras, Gorion's letter, Tamoko and finally Sarevok...

[Ghreyfain]

Well, I would not want my BG1 tempered in favour of making it consistent with what I consider an inferrior game BG1 has plenty of encounters that hint, if not tell you outright what is afoot. The Chanters in CK, Lord Foreshadow, Arkushule, Koveras, Gorion's letter, Tamoko and finally Sarevok...

Lord Foreshadow is something other than an ad for NWN?

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure Jester was jesting.

Anyone who seriously thinks about altering BG1 to go with ToB's revisionist backstory should be banned.  Forever.  And for two months on top of that.

[Veloxyll]

What about altering BG2/ToB to go with BG1?

[Reverendratbastard]

  i was hoping there'd be a variety {possibly based on class/race/choices-up-to-that-point, but preferably completely random} of backstories.  darn.
  i'm not trying to defend any ToB decisions, but a little more rationalization {especially in light of UB having such stringent parameters} shouldn't hurt.
  never did i think, "then why didn't he tell me more about her in the letter?"  even a wise and intelligent sage might selectively, emotionally and intellectually, interpret her death as ultimately bhaal's doing, without considering that part of the letter to be an outright prevarication.  and since he raised you on {was it 'a thousand'?} tales and legends, then metaphor and/or allegory are certainly not out of the question.
  if (as is not going too far out on a limb if i may say so) gorion wanted to'engineer' as much free will as he thought possible into his ward's mind/life, it doesn't seem implasuible to me that he would reveal the bhaal-taint and not reveal the truth of mama's motives/demise...  firstly, the bhaal parentage is something that would soon become more dangerous to >not< know than to know, and would also become more and more {generally, not specifically} obvious.  secondly, i >do< think it's more easy {*not* *easy*, but...} to cope with the knowledge that you are the child of an evil {and dead} god than it is to cope with the knowledge that *both* of your parents intended for you to become {at the very least} an avatar of Murder{optional extra burden: AND your kind guardian killed your mother!}.
  to me, the existence, ever, of, say, a halfling priestess of bhaal is substantially less plausible than such a decision being deliberate and rational.

[Reverendratbastard]

What about altering BG2/ToB to go with BG1?

  a noble notion.  to quote jim raynor, "i'm into it."

[Kish]

There's also the matter of the other mismatches between BG1's version and ToB's version.  In BG1, the Children of Bhaal were supposed to fight each other until one emerged as supreme.  This was in Alaundo's prophecies, so Bhaal knew about it, and Tamoko guessed correctly that the prophecy meant he would take over the body of the winner and thus be reborn.  In ToB, apparently, none of the Bhaalspawn were meant to survive their first few days of life.  In BG1, Sarevok set out on a course that would have resulted in his being taken over by Bhaal if he had succeeded, because he desperately wanted to read the prophecies of Alaundo in a way that meant his real father cared about him.  Tamoko helps the PC stop him because she suspects the truth, that obliteration would be Sarevok's reward for success.

Now, I know there are ways all the inconsistencies can be explained away.  ("Gorion was actually Alianna's lover before she became a priestess of Bhaal, and she was both raped by Bhaal and experienced great joy at the prospect of bearing one of the Children of Bhaal, and Bhaal tried to have the Bhaalspawn sacrificed despite knowing they would survive to battle each other as adults, and Sarevok was actually entirely on top of the situation in BG1 because preserving the silly ToB backstory is far more important than how badly making him know what he's doing there weakens the BG1 story and the character of Sarevok, and Tamoko interferes with his plot because she's drunk...")  But really, why is this desirable?  Is saying, "Oh, yeah, it's a retcon" really that painful?  If making the story consistent is the goal, changing the shallow, illogical ToB backstory, which supports nothing but the Solar's immediate morality test, seems far better than making changes which make the relationship between Gorion, Bhaal, and the PC's mother far more complicated and contrived, and incidentally strip Sarevok of all the humanity he ever shows.

[Reverendratbastard]

  it's all entirely out of hand re: sarevok; he could use an overhaul any time.
  the gorion/alianna matter is nowhere near that level of inconsistency, imo.

[NiGHTMARE]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks "oh dear, your mother was raped by Bhaal.  Oh dear, then she died in child birth" is immensely contrived, boring and just plain lazy story writing... though maybe that's what the developers of ToB were thinking too.  Of course, it's not as lazy as just completely ignoring the issue of Imoen's mother, to the extent of Imoen never wondering about her even once.

Anyway, regarding "and Bhaal tried to have the Bhaalspawn sacrificed despite knowing they would survive to battle each other as adults".  If you think about it, it was the church of Bhaal who tried to have the Bhaalspawn sacrificed, not Bhaal himself.  The sacrifices happened when the PC was still a baby, which would be something like 19 years before BG1, or around 1349-1350 DR.  This is almost a decade before the Time of Troubles, so Bhaal would have been very much still alive and would obviously not have wanted anything to happen to the Bhaalspawn just yet.

However, it's doubtful Bhaal would have told any but his most trusted priests (e.g. Mellissan) about his impending death and plans for resurrection (backed up by the fact so many converted to Cyric, Xvim, etc - if they knew Bhaal was coming back, they'd also know he'd be rather pissed off when he found out they'd betrayed him), and so the rest of them may well have misinterpreted the prophecies/their god's intentions, and began the slaughter far earlier than he had intended.  Likely they assumed the Bhaalspawn were simply around to give their god even more power than he already had (bearing in mind that in those days, a deity's power didn't depend on the number of worshippers they had), so it didn't matter when they were sacrificed.

BTW, what about the inconsistency in BG1 itself? Apparently if a Bhaalspawn kills - either directly or indirectly - a vast number of people, Bhaal will be reborn.  Fair enough, so lets go kill everyone and everything from Baldur's Gate to Nashkel.  What's that, no Bhaal? Whoops! Adding SoA to the mix, there's still no sign of Bhaal appearing even if you wipe out the entire population of Athkatla, Tradmeet, Ust'Natha, Suldanessellar, etc.  Not to mention the inconsistency with pnp - Bhaal was the Lord of Murder, not the Lord of War.  A Baldur's Gate/Amn conflict would give power to Tempus, and even any massacres committed during the time would favour the current Lord of Murder (i.e. Cyric), not the previous deity to hold the portfolio.

I also like the way BG1 gives Sarevok and Rieltar's last name as Costak at one point .

[Reverendratbastard]

  sad.  where's the Costak?

[NiGHTMARE]

1354: They are led by Rieltar Costak.

1355: They are led by Sarevok Costak.

1359: A man named Sarevok Costak is responsible for the frame.

7237: The seer told us that the leader of the Iron Throne was Reiltar Costak.

7238: The seer told us that the leader of the Iron Throne was Sarevok Costak.

7243: The seer tells us that Sarevok Costak was the man who framed us for the murders at Candlekeep.

[Reverendratbastard]

 yeep.  how many of those are currently "wired in", as it were? (what would be the proper technical term - enabled?)  not that i've gone through too many permutations of the last two chapters, but i missed those if they're around.
 not that i can remember where i saw anchev, either.  i just remember a lot of letters with first names only.


 EDIT: must be eating too much pizza.

[Echon]

I also recall a dialogue where Sarevok's last name is Costak instead of Anchev.

-Echon

[Veloxyll]

The war of Murder to make Sarevok Bhaal was Sarevoks plan, it required him to do some ritual or other as well as the war thing. We stopped him from that tho and didn't start a war/perform the ritual, so no return.