Sendai as an ally... hmmm?

[Anko]

  I wonder whether it is possible in further versions of Ascension to recruit Sendai? It doesn't make much sense planning to recruit Yaga-Shura or pompous Abazigal, as they aren't of playable classes. But... Sendai? There's still no "tougher battle" in the Ascension... well, maybe other people don't like her and don't care.
  The first time I came to this idea was when the drow outside Sendai's enclave revealed themselves and Viconia had nothing to say... I was really disappointed, having in mind how often she conversed with the drow in the Underdark/Ust Natha.
  Then I recalled Viconia's words that drow loathe those weaker and in lower position than themselves, but they respect and obey those stronger and more powerful. In fact, dark elves are meant to be really vicious, but they usually make some temporary coalitions and work together, when they hope to gain something that way. After all, they are neutral-evil egoists.

  Some time ago I read some "classical" books from the "Forgotten Realms" universum. And there were many examples that dark elves don't always kill their enemies, even though they ussually kill relatives  Sometimes they enslave their foes, sometimes they even let them work for their family if they lack priestesses or fighters...
  So my conclusion was that Sendai shouldn't be so stupid to choose death when she has a possibility to survive (and plot some further schemes). Maybe she would like to join you just to betray you a while after you defeat Melissan - just a knife in your weakened back... and she's the last Child of Bhaal, the Goddess of Murder! (Well, not in my Aslyferund Elven Chainmail +5...  )
  So, maybe depending of your behavior (nobody forces you to trust a wicked drow) and maybe whether Viconia is in your party or not, you could convince Sendai that you should fight together against Balthazar (and Melissan).
  And then, maybe, if you are really strong and fearless, Sendai would not betray you, as she would suppose you are a really die hard and it would be she who is not going to survive this fight, even a REALLY UNFAIR one. Well, my Charname was such a person. 

  I played an evil character (for example I gave the Adalon eggs to that demon, which made the dragon attack me. I got the blood with no loss of Rep.  ) and my dream ending was I being a god of murder and Viconia being my priestess (after she broke with the cultists of Shar). I really liked it that way - the ending where "her fate remained unknown", because if I stayed mortal, she would die from poison    and a 40-lvl cleric shouldn't end that way.
  And then I dreamt that maybe I (the god) need a Second Grand Priestess, and why not Sendai? She's a cleric after all and probably if she lives near the surface, she's a runaway like Viconia. So she doesn't worship Lolth (or Lloth, whatsoever). Therefore it would be very profitable to gain protection from a powerful deity. (Only if Sendai gave hope for becomin the goddess herself, that is.)
  She isn't more twisted than any drow, even being a child of Bhaal (killing the captain was nothing surprising, since we saw a mother killing her son the same minute we entered Ust Natha).

  It's a pity I'm a total lamer and can't write a single line of script... especially something that isn't explained in the first lesson of any tutorial, and this seems to be fairly complicated, so I can't express my idea on my own. Thanks for any help, hope you'll find this idea interesting.

Greetings.
-- Anko.

[Da_venom]

ehm when u fight sendai you don't know mellisan is your enemy right?
so how the F*CK can she help you defeating mellisan? and besides they are the five meant to kill all other bhaalspawn no matter the cost even when it means death

[mcruz]

I guess one possibility is in that Sendai sort of regrets that the Big Five did not bring the PC into the fold when they had a chance if any....and based on this it is possible for her to change her mind (especially knowing that for sure Illasera and Yaga-Shura are dead)...

However if she was to change her mind then she probably would still want to go forward with the originial plan of brining Bhaal back or something along this lines which might be only suitable for evil/neutral PCs (i.e she won't want to stop Mellissan simply because it's the right thing to do)...

So it wouldn't really fit wit the current ending of ToB, but if the ending could somehow be altered then it would certainly be interesting...

[Ivy2004]

I guess one possibility is in that Sendai sort of regrets that the Big Five did not bring the PC into the fold

 That's a good note - Sendai says that "they should have recruited you but it is too late now".

Maybe it's not too late, if it's not for Bodhi....

And if you're evil it doesn't always mean you like vampyres, so maybe another option wouldn't be a bad idea...

And well, there are some dialogue options after destruction of Saradush showing that you are suspicious and don't believe Melissan... she denies that, but you really needn't believe her if you smell a rat. You don't want to be anyone's puppet, right?

And Sendai *would like* to kill Melissan just because that wench wanted to steal something that belonged to children of Bhaal - their fate, their destiny, their might. It's a good reason to show her how the children of god treat such thieves.

Of course, it all becomes clear after defeating Balthazar, but he's a good one enemy for Sendai at the beginning, isn't he? And then, when everything becomes clear, Sendai wouldn't approve what Melissan had done just because she doesn't like to be tricked and devoured of her power.

It is the power Sendai wanted, isn't it?

---
And about you, Da_venom:
 

they are the five meant to kill all other bhaalspawn no matter the cost even when it means death

Some creatures are INTELLIGENT. But maybe you don't know what this word means...

[Da_venom]

first of all Sendai doesn't know the "REAL" plans of mellisan, mellisan made the five to kill other bhaalspawn so they would be invincible  at least that's what they thought untill they met u and killed some of the 5

and besides someone strong needed to keep the five together so drow's keep their alliance to that person

so she can't betray her

[Ivy2004]

When your PC kills 2 or 3 (including Abazigal) members of the five, the alliance is somewhat weak now - Sendai just has to choose: fight with Balthazar against you or with you against Balthazar. Both choices lead to death of one Bhaalspawn, so it is one step nearer the victory. And she as a drow needn't keep the promise to be still the member of the five.

And when Balthazar is dead, all Melissan's schemes become clear, so Sendai can *then* (when it comes out) choose to kill Melissan. Not earlier.

And she has no profits from dying from PC's hand. Why she would like to die anyway? She's neither honourable nor Chaotic Evil.
Why would she like to kill you more than any other powerful Bhaalspawn? Isn't it the same, besides she can save her life when surrendering to you. Balthazar (or Abazigal, if still alive) can't punish her for her treachery. It is the time when PC is *stronger* than the rest of the five (very small rest, indeed).

And I say Sendai would like to kill Melissan, when it comes to this - when you battle Melissan, everything is clear. About this issue Sendai can decide *later*, why not?
 

[Da_venom]

the five were created by mellisan to kill other bhaalspawn although underling they still wonder who is the strongest, but mellisan made sure they won't fight eachother or let any other bhaalspawn come in cause the five don't know anything of mellisan's true plan

and there needs to be someone real powerfull to keep the five together. assumeably stronger than the pc

so if u killed 2 or 3 from the five and then fight sendai it would be logical that she rather fight's u than mellisan
she has more chance fighting u and besides even if she choosed u mellisan would surely take out sendai or at least makes balti or abazigal to do it so there is just no way to let sendai be yur companion

[mcruz]

In the end i think Mellisan did intend them to fight each other or otherwise her plan would have been that much harder to achieve....it was just convenient for her that the gullible PC came along to play like a harp (and Balthazar would have done so anyway)

Also i don't think they follow Mellisan because they think she's powerful but rather because has promised them great power when Bhaal is brought back and she's the one who's going to perform this ritual...

[Da_venom]

her plan was to let them kill eachother in the end, but u are speeding the plans


even if the were promised great power when bhaal is brought back, mellisan is the only one who can perfom the ritual so she cannot betray mellisan if they want bhaal's powers

[Ivy2004]

However, you don't need any Melissan's rituals to become the God.

And Melissan can send Abazigal or Balthazar after pc or/and Sendai, but if you can kill Abazigal or Balthazar yourself, it would be no threat for you needing to face them because of Sendai.
And think of these xp's for the dragon 

[Da_venom]

well mellisan has the information for the ritual the others don't

so ye they need melibitch ^^

[Ahrimal]

Well, it might be possible if another ending were added. For example, besides choosing godhood or mortality, the Solar would present you with the third choice of returning your father's essence to him, and in the process being rewarded by him as one of his godly agents. If you go that route, then I suppose you could alter the plot a bit to be given an option of convincing Sendai to join you. I don't care much for Yaga-Shura either. Abazigal, it might be able to work, it you have him in your party in his humanoid form. As for how that would work, you weaken Abazigal nearly to the point of death, and he tries to make you an offer, giving you an option of having him join or killing him. That would be interesting as well. After all, we are all Bhaal's beloved children.

[Da_venom]

if another ending was added then it would be after sendai's death

besides the five really don't care about someone else or join a npc

they only care for their own wits

and *Even* if they did join the npc would be real insane cause she would betray the npc anyway

2 who are at first enemy's can't just be friends in such a short term

so death is the onyl way for them

[mcruz]

I don't think Sendai for instance changing her mind to join forces with the PC would be out of the norm, it seems to me that the reason behind why the Big Five came to be was that they all wanted power, lots and lots of power, and through their allegiance they would have enough might to fulfill this legacy (i.e safely bring Bhaal without any fo them dying and once he was brought back they would once and for all have what they wanted).  Yes they do in fact care for themselves only, but I also think that they are at least smart enough to recognize that without each member they would become more vulnerable to any resistance they would surely encounter along the way (i.e other armies, etc).  So by the time the PC reaches Sendai, the Big Five are already down two members (and Yaga Shura was probably a heavy loss), so they can either try to fight and most likely end up dying and see their plan fail or do something else due to the change in their current situation.  I know the game is not designed for this but for those reasons is why I think that Sendai forming an alliance with the PC could have been a possibility. 

[Anko]

I wonder why there are still the same 2-3 people answering (besides small exception, thank you Ahrimal ). I appreciate all your replies contributing to this discussion.

In my opinion, the more choices the better game. I really can't enjoy a linear adventure, as I don't feel I'm playing a role - or it is the one role all the time, so what for to play that game again? Versatility is the key! 

So, nobody would lose when another option is added. And some fun is to be gained, I suppose.

I wonder what the WeiDu creators themselves think about it, however I can't expect they'll have time for some not quite very popular ideas... 

Well, maybe someday the Gurus will speak and answer me. 
I think it wouldn't be really much work with this option, and it'll be fun to feel you have the control on the action.

You, Da_venom , seem to like just cutting through loads of cannon fodder. Yeah, it can be fun, and there are many people who like RPG just for the GP and XP (and this we get due to hordes of various monsters). But hey, if my option was be available, nobody would force you to change your way of play. And some other people may like it.

[Ivy2004]

It isn't really fair - what has Bodhi, Irenicus, Sarevok or Balthazar in common Sendai doesn't? Why only that four, nobody else?

And if Edwin, Viconia, Korgan, Xzar and others didn't betray you (well, Xzar maybe didn't have enough time to), it isn't certain Sendai would. She's not bound by geas like Yoshimo.

And about "Melibitch" - I said, you can become god without her! She's not essential by any means.

And better live, than die. Everytime. I think Sendai knows it.

And besides, she's a refuge fron the Underdark (she lives there no more, probably worshipping Bhaal/herself, not Lolth). She may feel not engaged emotionally with the five - they're just a tool for her survival and plans. She can betray them.

And you? It's just a simple drow question: "Will I profit more when PC's dead or by PC's side?" Drow aren't stupid destructors of everything which moves. They are just selfish to the core, want profit, and calculate all pros and contras.

[Da_venom]

isn't it like this: mellissan makes the 5 to eradicate bhaalspawn..she tells the five that if they kill all bhaalspawn but themselves they would become lord of murder(like sarevok tried slaughtering many people to show his worth)the five were created the same way
not any of the five know's of mellissan's real plans getting any dead bhaalspawn into the pool of bhaal for the ritual

and ofcourse the five would betray eachother in the end cause only one can become a trye god ofmurder

and "IF" sendai really would  see more profit in joining the pc..wouldn't it only to know more of the pc and letting him kill the other 4 of the 5? so she would in the end backstab you

besides you would have to rewrite the whole TOB story anyway to do it anyway

and sure if u want sendai as ally why not create it?

i sure wouldn't play it

[Kish]

The Five (except Balthazar) think they're going to resurrect Bhaal, in return for which he'll make them his lieutenants.  So each of them gave up his or her chance at truly being a god in favor of a better chance at a lesser degree of power.  Sendai could ally with the PC instead, if she was convinced the PC could win, and if the PC offered her the same thing she hoped to get from Bhaal--a position as his/her lieutenant.

[Da_venom]

and how does someone who is in the five be conviced that the PC can win?

with the 5 sure

but that would mean u need to rewrite TOB

by that time you fight sendai U don't know who your real enemy is but the five.

so how in !^@*! name would a PC let someone of the five join him/her?

mellissan say's "the five" are the enemy's. you will need to destroy them

the only exception is balthazar cause u met him last and he reveals his plans

besides if one of the five joins the PC wouldn't he/she be hunted by the others of the five? wich are likely stronger than him/her?

[Ivy2004]

and sure if u want sendai as ally why not create it?

Well, I encountered some problems with creating Sendai (through cheats): her voiceset doesn't work when she's in your team, she can't change armor or weapon, she doesn't have any experience (yes, her EXP=0, even though she has 40 hit dice!), she doesn't have many of her spells she uses in battle, and she uses as a helmet a Ioun stone which is exclusive for monks. The creators of the game didn't put much effort in making everything match... And this is a cheat, after all.

[Da_venom]

so the whole point is that his just won't work 

[Araushnee]

so the whole point is that his just won't work

So, if there are bugs in the game they should be elliminated, it's no excuse that "Sendai is non-playable, so the PC would never see her stats/inventory". And Sendai.cre should be definitely exchanged for a bug-free one. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do this, I'm no good at programming.

and how does someone who is in the five be conviced that the PC can win?

Because she sees PC is winning? Because she's facing her death??? 

mellissan say's "the five" are the enemy's. you will need to destroy them

I fought the 5 just because I needed to defend myself. As the pride test in Nine Hells says "I don't kill anybody just because it stands on my way". I don't do something only because I'm told to. Why don't try to insight into 5's plans? Join to reach similar goals? Why Sendai would think I'm worse or easier to elliminate than other members of the five? Killing any Bhaalspawn nears the finale - you or the member of the 5 are on the same position, aren't you?

besides if one of the five joins the PC wouldn't he/she be hunted by the others of the five? wich are likely stronger than him/her?

Nobody said THEY are stronger. I'm hunted by the 5, so nothing changes. The 5 are hunted by me, and that's the reason why they should start worrying. 

[Anko]

The Five (except Balthazar) think they're going to resurrect Bhaal, in return for which he'll make them his lieutenants. So each of them gave up his or her chance at truly being a god in favor of a better chance at a lesser degree of power. Sendai could ally with the PC instead, if she was convinced the PC could win, and if the PC offered her the same thing she hoped to get from Bhaal--a position as his/her lieutenant.

Very good idea, indeed. I wouldn't find better words to express it!  That's what I thought about. 
I'm happy there are people who think similarily to me.
Best wishes, Kish 

And greetings for everybody!
-- Anko.

[Ivy2004]

And Sendai.cre should be definitely exchanged for a bug-free one. Unfortunately, I don't know how to do this, I'm no good at programming.

I wonder is there anybody capable of doing this bugfix? I would highly appreciate it. 

[Anko]

Besides, don't you think that if not every single "faerie" elf is good - they can be of different alignment, character and temperament, not every drow is the same? It's like human races or nationalities - we all have prejudices, more or less accurate or true, the climate some people live in, the history of the nation, religion, everything contributes to characteristic traits of a nation. But are all American/Russian/Arabia/Chinese people the same? Of course not. And I think they have more in common between themselves than differences.
And I suppose all the elven/dwarf/human/etc. hostility in fantasy genre is just emphasized hostility between human cultures around the world. People are different, not always can they understand each other, sometimes their cultures seem strange or even awful to others, but above all, we're all people. And in fantasy they're all intelligent races. They're not mindless beasts.
That's why I like RPG more than FPP. In FPP games, no matter who you face, is just a moving shooting target, a walking source of XP/frags/items/gold/points - whatsoever. And I don't like RPG games which are too much like this - more fighting than actual role-playing. Maybe it's because I'm a woman or maybe it's because I'm just odd.