Betray Edwin?

[SixOfSpades]

This idea pretty much sprang from Virtue: It is in the interests of a Paladin to destroy evildoers, especially those who thrive in organized guilds such as Mae'Var's. But a Paladin cannot exterminate Mae'Var, because doing so would necessarily involve working for Edwin, who orders you to kill Rayic Gethras, which is a Virtue hit, which means instant Fallen Paladin.

Therefore, in the same vein as betraying Renal Bloodscalp, I suggest a Betray Edwin quest: When Rayic Gethras initiates conversation with you, you get a 3rd response option that indicates that you have been sent to kill him by Edwin Odessiron, but that does not mean you have to carry out that order. In the ensuing dialogue, you can negotiate with him a deal wherein you will bring him Edwin, and Gethras will pretend to be dead in the meantime--and also forgive you for killing his Mephits and Golems. If he accepts the deal, Gethras will Dimension Door away until you return.

Afterwards, when you have recruited Edwin, you can take him to Gethras's house under the pretense of scouring the place for any odd notes about Cowled Wizard activity that Gethras may have left lying around. Gethras Dimension Doors back in, and you can hand Edwin over to him....or even turn right round again and betray him, and help Edwin to kill him. (This approach will require some pretty fancy talking to keep Edwin in the party afterwards, since you A] Lied to him, and B] Went against his Lawful nature.)

If you have Edwin in the party for more than 2 days and don't go to Gethras's estate, he gets impatient and ambushes the party with a group of Cowled Enforcers.

Comments?

[jester]

Certainly a nice plot twist.

[Senka]

But paladin cannot betray anybody, I afraid... In Renal/Mae'Var quest paladin havn't any choice, if Virtue is install, and need to refuse to perform this quest at all (and lost a lot of exp as a result). If somebody can make an alternative quest "for paladin only..."

[SimDing0™]

This is rather a good idea, and worthy of a "why didn't I think of that?!" I'll probably throw it into the next Quest Pack release pretty much exactly as you describe (full credit, blah blah).

As for paladins falling even this way... betrayal is not lawful, I'd imagine, but it's certainly not necessarily evil. Therefore, within the scope of the Virtue mod, it's not going to cause a paladin to fall.

[Bons]

I suggest a Betray Edwin quest: When Rayic Gethras initiates conversation with you, you get a 3rd response option that indicates that you have been sent to kill him by Edwin Odessiron, but that does not mean you have to carry out that order.

Awesome. Dealing with Gethras and cooperating with Edwin are definitely situations where I would welcome more options.

[mcruz]

Definitely a good idea...though i'm not sure why a Cowled Wizard would want to help Edwin in ambushing the PC....maybe he could get help from somewhere else 

[Caswallon]

Not "Edwin ambushes the PC" but "Gethras with a bunch of CW ambushes the PC", because you didn't keep your promise to deliver Edwin to Gethras.

Anyway - great idea!

[mcruz]

Ah okay...really should have read it more carefully 

[SixOfSpades]

I'll probably throw it into the next Quest Pack release pretty much exactly as you describe (full credit, blah blah).

Wheee!   

One minor change, though: Thanks to Stealth and/or Invisibility, it's not truly necessary to kill the Mephits and Golems to get to Gethras. If you strike your deal with Gethras without killing any of his minions, he does give you a material reward--his Wand of Fire and perhaps 2,000 gold. (This would require moving the Wand of Fire from the nearby table to his person, though.)

[Senka]

This is rather a good idea, and worthy of a "why didn't I think of that?!" I'll probably throw it into the next Quest Pack release pretty much exactly as you describe (full credit, blah blah).

Quest Pack? But why not in Virtue?

[SimDing0™]

Virtue doesn't have quests. There's only one case I can think of where Virtue really adds any content to the game, and that's a single dialogue option where the player's intent was previously unclear.

[Lord Kain]

you don't need a mod. Just refuse to perform murder for edwin repeatedly and he attacks you. Kill him take the key get the papers and bam your done.

[SixOfSpades]

you don't need a mod. Just refuse to perform murder for edwin repeatedly and he attacks you. Kill him take the key get the papers and bam your done.

Hmmm....assuming you're correct, many players would not even know they had that option--there is at least 1 point when you're working for Edwin where refusing to do his bidding (or, at least maintaining your cover of being a good little Shadow Thief) results in his turning Hostile to you and Dimension Dooring away....but not before summoning Arkanis Gath to gib your party into chunks.

[Hendryk]

If the only idea is to be able to do something nasty to Edwin, then betraying him to the Cowlies will do.  I've always wondered though:  Edwin says that Reyic Gethras is a cowled wizard sent to investigate him and Gethras' cre file indicates he's a cowlie but nothing he says or does in the game gives any substance to Edwin's claim.  All he says about himself if that he's a great mage and you're interrupting his studies.  So who is he really?  Just a personal enemy of Edwin's?  A Red Wizard spying, incognito, on Edwin?  A renegade ex-Red Wizard whose death would gratify Edwin's Thayvian masters but who has nothing to do with Edwin or the Shadow Thieves?  Or is he just an innocent victim of Edwin's paranoia?  An innocent victim who had powerful friends who will come to check up on him?

[SimDing0™]

I always assumed he was just a personal enemy of Edwin, but I'm not sure if there's anything ingame to confirm or disprove this. If there's no evidence either way, I'm not above adding some hint into Quest Pack if it's necessary to develop this aspect of the quest further.

[Drugar]

Just a thought; why would a Paladin work with the Shadow Thieves any more than he'd have to, aka, why go on Renal Bloodscalp's quest at all if you're concerned about roleplaying?
Aside from that, Paladin Code clearly states that lying is forbidden (along with using poison), so tricking everyone isn't really an option either.

[SixOfSpades]

Well, I'm not Lawful Good myself, but I can definitely say that if I were a Paladin, and somebody (Bloodscalp) told a member of my party (Yoshimo) of a way to kill a large number of Shadow Thieves, I would definitely jump at the chance. Now, let's examine the niceties:
1. You don't exactly have to lie to anyone, at least as far as I know.
2. You do have to rob a church (although not your own), which I believe is classified as blasphemy. And since the item vanishes once you give it to Mae'Var, you can't give it back afterwards.
3. You have to do the bidding of Thieves.
Now, I (as a Paladin) would have no problem with these tasks, if I knew that it would all result in the culling of an entire Thieves' Guild.

So, maybe Paladins should still Fall as a result of this quest, and maybe they shouldn't. Personally, I would rather they didn't, as that's a nice, fun quest that would be closed off, and also because Keldorn doesn't even put up a real stink about it. (The double-standard of only PC Paladins Falling also raises my hackles somewhat.)

[Kabuki]

It is not about lying, it is not about robbing the church... it is simply:  You work for someone who is evil.

This is a no-no.

Indiscriminate slaughter is also a no-no (which is what kiling Mae'var and his members is).  A point: Going and investigating Mae'var's guildhall, then spotting him torturing poor Lin and then killing him (which is what you would have to do)... that would be according to code.  But you still can't accept the quest from Renal...

As a side note:

The thieves guilds operate under a LEGAL agreement with the state in Amn.  In fact they are on the ruling council.  You would be breaking the LAW to attack them (or don't you think the guard would have done something...)

Now, if Aran Linvail as a member of the council of six asks you to clear out a guild of thieves that have been disobeying the law, now it's ok.  Simply accepting the word of a known evil thief is not good enough.

As a Paladin you should not accept quests from evil people, even if the quest involves killing evil people (a paladin never deals with the devil)... Now... hearing a person out, detecting evil, and then killing them both (one for suggesting the assassination - accessory to murder - and one for whatever crimes he had committed) is ok.  Rewards are immaterial and should not factor in, i.e. no deal -> kill -> reward -> kill.

[Blitzerland]

I'd hate to be a Palidan..  

[fallen demon]

but it's ok to pick the reward they would give you out of the said evil persons cold, dead hands, right?

[-guest-]

Aran Linvail isn't on the Council of Six, he doesn't even exist in any officially printed FR sources.

But I agree with the main points, there.

[SimDing0™]

This is implemented, incidentally.