Stopping Paladins from falling.

[Kish]

Also I don't think it's possible to make them Rebuke Undead, only Turn Undead.

That's odd.  I remember someone who played an un-Baldurdashed game (and thus his paladin didn't automatically Fall upon going Neutral Evil in the Tears of Bhaal test) talking about "once I realized that in ToB Turn Undead controls undead rather than scaring them," which made me think commanding undead rather than destroying them was purely alignment-linked.  You're sure the evil paladin you're testing with is high enough level to command the undead you're testing on?

[Andyr]

Yeh, went up to the Tutu cap, summoned one of the little skeletons... He ran away when I Turned instead of becoming allied.

The Alignment thing works for Clerics but not it seems Paladins. Will experiment more if this can be confirmed when my BGII install is fixed.

[Kish]

The conversion cap?  I have my doubts about the ability of the equivalent of a sixth-level evil cleric to command skeletons.  I mean, did you test sixth-level Viconia?

*checks*

Well, a Shadowkeepered 34th-level Chaotic Evil paladin commands (does not Turn) zombies and ghouls.

[Andyr]

Thanks - that would be one problem down, then. I'll have to fix my BGII install and test again.

[Wounded_Lion]

How do you stop a paladin from falling?

The answer:  Don't.  Let them fall (the fall is glorious, is it not?  lol).

Create a Blackguard kit.  Then create a carbon copy of your kit's 2DA but rename it CLABPA05.2DA and place it in your override directory.  When your paladin falls (after committing the first "evil" act), he or she will stop using the Blackguard 2DA and begin using the Fallen Paladin 2DA, which is identical.  Slick, huh?

This works because a Fallen Paladin does not cease to be a Paladin.  The Fallen Paladin simply starts using the Fallen Paladin 2DA, which contains three spells:  remove priest spells button, remove turn undead button, and remove lay on hands (I think those are the three spells anyway, its been awhile since I've scripted the Blackguard of Bane).  Your paladin should retain his abilities and continue to gain priest spells at the appropriate levels and whatnot.

I suggest that your Blackguard gain "Doom" in place of "Detect Evil" and gain "Protection from Good" instead of "Protection from Evil".  I also suggest giving your Blackguard several uses of a custom "Charm Undead" spell - it is only appropriate.  ;-)  (I have a custom Blackguard of Bane kit that uses these abilities... and could send it to you if you desire).

Your class will, unfortunately, list as Fallen Paladin on the portrait screen, but your kit description will remain Blackguard.  Also note that this method cannot be used to add multiple Blackguard kits (because there is only one CLABPA05 file).  Note, too, that a normal paladin will become a Blackguard if he or she falls (the dark gods are eager to embrace and empower those fallen from the light...  LOL.  I love being evil...  its just so damn fun).

I hope this helps.

Dark blessings on you,

a Wounded Lion

[Ghreyfain]

Note, too, that a normal paladin will become a Blackguard if he or she falls.

I was about to point out that this would happen, but I see you thought of it already.  In my opinion, this flaw makes the entire idea unworkable.  That and the class being listed as Fallen Paladin on the character screen.

[Wounded_Lion]

Does it?  I rather like the idea of Fallen Paladins being embraced by the dark gods that empower Blackguards...  Honestly, if your character falls, then you're not much of a Paladin-spirited player to begin with...     But, to each his own, I suppose.  The portrait screen listing is unavoidable, to my knowledge, and requires a little re-interpretation...  I like to think of "Fallen Paladin" as meaning a Paladin of the fallen gods (Bane, Bhaal, other dark powers, etc).

Another point to consider:  is there a better solution?  The Anti-Paladin solution is awful, in my opinion.  The Death Knight provides a viable alternative, but is not truly a Paladin if I recall correctly.

a Wounded Lion

[Ghreyfain]

What about those Paladins that fall just because they couldn't live up to the rigorous demands of being a paladin?  What if they shift to CG, or LN, or... y'know, whatever?

[Reverendratbastard]

.  The Death Knight provides a viable alternative, but is not truly a Paladin if I recall correctly.

  understatement.  esp. with improved tactics DKs?
  [my favorite thing about death knights is they remind me of the dead kennedys]
 
  you'd have to Fall quite deliberately and sinisterly, i imagine.  only an alternative for a heavily twisted bhaalspawn (the best time to perpetrate the blackguardry might be just after irenicus yanks yr immortality - profound bitterness over charname's loss fuses with remnants of the savage dream-bhaal, and they drive the 'spawn into a fugue or fury that ends in an irrevocable plunge, into the abyss of what is left of charname's soul.
  and you may switch to the death-knight avatar if it helps.

  and i second ghreyfain's question.

[Kish]

I like to think of "Fallen Paladin" as meaning a Paladin of the fallen gods (Bane, Bhaal, other dark powers, etc).

"They're fallen, and they can't get up!"

Evil gods are not "fallen."

[Wounded_Lion]

What about those Paladins that fall just because they couldn't live up to the rigorous demands of being a paladin?  What if they shift to CG, or LN, or... y'know, whatever?

You have to commit seriously wrong acts to fall (i.e. - murder, robbery, etc).  It may be easier to fall in the pen and paper version of D&D, but falling is rather deliberate in the computer games.

a Wounded Lion

[Kish]

Sir Reynald de Chatillion is a fallen paladin.  He is hardly a Blackguard.

[Wounded_Lion]

 you'd have to Fall quite deliberately and sinisterly, i imagine.

Indeed.   

a Wounded Lion

[Wounded_Lion]

Evil gods are not "fallen."

That would be a matter of opinion, in my opinion.   Some hard core D&D buffs might disagree with me though...   

a Wounded Lion

[Kish]

Evil gods are not "fallen."

That would be a matter of opinion, in my opinion.

Explain.

[Wounded_Lion]

Can one be born evil?  Is it possible?  If it is not possible, then one MUST "fall" to become evil.

Anyone who chooses to be evil, whether once good or not, could be said to be fallen from the sight and comforts of the benevolent gods of the multiverse and the company of most of his fellow men.

Also, I believe that the term "fallen" is commonly used,  in some circles, to denote "evil" or "forsaken".

~The Challenge~
Really, though, if you don't like it, then don't use it or come up with something better...   

a Wounded Lion

[Kish]

Can one be born evil?  Is it possible?

If one is a god, the embodiment of a concept, and that concept is "cruelty" or "bad luck"?  Hmm, let me think.

[Wounded_Lion]

Ah, see.  There is a difference of views at work.  You think of the gods as abstract representations of concepts and ideals.  I was arguing under the premise that gods were individual beings.  So our arguments were destined to discord...  I'm not sure that we can continue without heavy philosophy, which would probably be out of place here.

a Wounded Lion

[Kish]

We're not talking about real gods here, but Forgotten Realms gods.  Anyone can pick up a book and learn that Talos, Beshaba, Talona, and Loviatar were never good.

[Wounded_Lion]

We're not talking about real gods here, but Forgotten Realms gods.  Anyone can pick up a book and learn that Talos, Beshaba, Talona, and Loviatar were never good.

AHHHH!!!  The lines between reality and fantasy are blurring!!!  HELP!!!  lol.   

I have only just begun to explore the pen and paper version of D&D (or AD&D if you prefer).  So...  who knows?  Maybe you are right...  not that I think so...  but I don't see this debate progressing anywhere when we are arguing from different sources of knowledge...

And at core, is it really that much to live with that the portrait screen says "Fallen"?  It is a mod, after all.  Not everything is do-able.

a Wounded Lion

[neriana]

Well, Kish is right about what the books say. If you have a different philosophy that you wish to use in your P&P games, that's cool. But canon is that certain gods are and always were evil, and certain other gods are and always were good. That's not really a matter of opinion.

I wouldn't particularly care about the screen saying "fallen" either, much... but then, I'd probably never play a blackguard anyway, so my opinion on this is moot.

[SimDing0™]

In FR, a mortal can ascend to godhood, no? That pretty much rules out the concept of gods being abstract beings. In which case, if you accept childhood innocence or whatever, then presumably evil gods could indeed be "fallen", whether or not the books bother to mention it.

[Echon]

In FR, a mortal can ascend to godhood, no? That pretty much rules out the concept of gods being abstract beings. In which case, if you accept childhood innocence or whatever, then presumably evil gods could indeed be "fallen", whether or not the books bother to mention it.

Cyric and Midnight certainly good, although I am not sure if it was a result of the Time of Troubles. I can only recall one book that details rules for ascending, Dungeon Master Guide: High-Level Campaigns, and as far as I recall, the rules were rather poorly made.

-Echon

[Wounded_Lion]

Since the discussion seems to be moving towards P&P...

I wonder if you all might have any advice on whether I should I learn AD&D 2E or learn D&D 3.5E.  I am aware that there are differences between the two (Wizards of the Coast bought TSR, and changed everything to the D20 system, etc.).  Wizards of the Coast strikes me as a sell-out company (they managed to completely ruin the Magic: The Gathering franchise), but in terms of the actual game, what are the differences?  Any helpful advice would be appreciated...  I do not take major investments of my time and money lightly, and would like to make a good decision.

a W.L.

[Echon]

In relation to the IE games or just in general? I prefer AD&D 2E to D&D 3E but I think I am the only who is going to recommend that to you. In practical terms, 2E is cheaper but harder to come across, 3E is the other way around of course.

-Echon