The Compleat Anomen

[Kish]

And later--if any deity would insist on full formal process of law for a criminal, it's Helm.

And what if Saerk, who Helm assumedly knows to be guilty, was found to be innocent under due process of law? What would Helm do then, besides look really stupid?

Attempt to reform the justice system of Athkatla, treating the cause rather than the symptom.

[jester]

If he was found innocent, then he would be considered innocent unless there is another trial. Paladins would adhere to the ruling IMO.

[Idobek]

Since a mod of mine is being discussed I thought I ought to chip in. AFAIK (I, admittedly, haven't done much research) a berserk state can be obtained via training or naturally. The berserker kit, however, suggests some kind of the former. A naturally occurring berserker could prospectively be of any kit, class or alignment (or mental stability). I chose to allow Anomen to gain a berserker kit on failing his test simply to balance his gaining of a priest of Helm kit on passing. I knew that I would get requests Anomen to get something on failing. I also wanted the BioWare kits to be used by more of by the NPCs and, in this case, berserker was the best fitting.

[SixOfSpades]

I knew that I would get requests Anomen to get something on failing. I also wanted the BioWare kits to be used by more of by the NPCs and, in this case, berserker was the best fitting.

True, dat, and I happen to find the Berserker kit very fitting on Anomen. Some mod's kits are motivated by nothing but power, even if that means dropping roleplay and character background by the wayside (Valygar uses a Katana, so that must mean he's supposed to be a Kensai. Uh....yeah). But I happen to think the Berserker makes a world of sense on CN Anomen, and can even be considered a drawback: 2 Berserker Rages per day ain't that hot when you consider that he can't Grandmaster in Slings any more.

[Kish]

Why would anyone give a character with 18/xx Strength and 10-11 Dexterity more than one point in slings--much less spend five points there, when he only gets proficiency points at the rate of a cleric?

Put that against being able to become immune to level drain and Imprisonment, plus other combat bonuses.

[AkashaCatBat]

If Saerk is indeed guilty, and Anomen kills Saerk without any actual proof of his guilt, is Helm then going to punish Anomen for killing the right man for the wrong reason? Such an act would appeal to Helm's Neutrality, but not his Lawfulness. Or, consider the situation where Anomen waits until Saerk's guilt is known. Any god that punishes one of their best & brightest for not waiting for a trial is, in my opinion, a worthless cad who deserves to be thrown out on his ear. In these circumstances, Anomen
A) Knows Saerk was largely responsible for Cor's financial ruin
B) Has proof that Saerk was behind Moira's death. No fair trial yet, but the proof is there.
C) Knows that Saerk killed Cor. (All right, so Saerk was within his rights here, considering the situation.)
Given this setup, does Helm actually expect Anomen to NOT avenge his entire family, on a man who's rich enough to buy an entire jury and thus get off, no matter his guilt? If so, he's got one powerful casting of Bigby's Bruising Boot headed his way, and it doesn't look too pretty.

Doesn't matter what Helm thinks of Anomen's killing Saerk. Anomen clearly states, "Killing for revenge is murder according to the tennants of the Order." So therefore, if he kills Saerk, he has violated one of the Orders tennants, and will fail.

Kish: Blame my poor choice of words when I said, "There is no "wrong" choice". What I should have said is that the outcome of who acutually killed Moira has little to do with the act of killing Saerk being right or wrong.

[jester]

Perhaps after he fails the test he could be a priest of Hoard (or Hord) the god of revenge? Idobek I feel a new kit coming up for ya.

[Andyr]

He could just become a Fighter.

ChangeClass(FIGHTER) might work.

[SixOfSpades]

Why would anyone give a character with 18/xx Strength and 10-11 Dexterity more than one point in slings--much less spend five points there, when he only gets proficiency points at the rate of a cleric?
Put that against being able to become immune to level drain and Imprisonment, plus other combat bonuses.

Incorrect. Anomen actually has 18 DEX, since there's no one more deserving of the Gauntlets (except perhaps Keldorn, but when forced to choose between the two, the Gauntlets go to Anomen, since Keldorn's weapon proficiencies support keeping him as a Backup Tank anyway, as opposed to Anomen, who is capable of being the primary Tank). By the same token, Anomen's Strength of 18(52) isn't all that hot when you consider that his companions have Strengths of 19 and either 21 or 25, plus the possibility of 18(77) and 18(93) [or 19 if you've got UB], and that's leaving out what the PC's Strength might be. So Anomen Grandmastering in Sling is quite an asset, since it's around all day, and as cool as having 2 Berserker Rages certainly is, they only last for a few rounds.


The idea of Anomen completely losing faith (dropping his Cleric half and reverting to Fighter) is quite an interesting move--an un-Dual-Class if you will, but I don't think it makes sense for Anomen, since one of his CN Romance dialogues states that he knows Helm has not abandoned him, since he can still cast spells through his faith; his Order may have cast him out, but his god has not.

Becoming a Priest of Hoar is also a very interesting idea, but is argued against by that very same banter. Also, Anomen's CN alignment would seem to prohibit it: Hoar is the LN demigod of revenge, retribution, and poetic justice--his followers are most commonly of all non-Chaotic alignments. Odd--like it's out of character for a CG person to whack somebody who deserved it!

Hmm--the same page I pulled that info about Hoar from (http://www.daggerford.com/daggerford/frgods.htm) lists Helm as the god of "Guardians and Protection." Nothing about Law, or Justice, or Obedience, or Anal-Retentive Restraint is mentioned--those fall strictly in the domain of Torm and Tyr.

[neriana]

Why would anyone give a character with 18/xx Strength and 10-11 Dexterity more than one point in slings--much less spend five points there, when he only gets proficiency points at the rate of a cleric?
Put that against being able to become immune to level drain and Imprisonment, plus other combat bonuses.

Incorrect. Anomen actually has 18 DEX, since there's no one more deserving of the Gauntlets (except perhaps Keldorn, but when forced to choose between the two, the Gauntlets go to Anomen, since Keldorn's weapon proficiencies support keeping him as a Backup Tank anyway, as opposed to Anomen, who is capable of being the primary Tank). By the same token, Anomen's Strength of 18(52) isn't all that hot when you consider that his companions have Strengths of 19 and either 21 or 25, plus the possibility of 18(77) and 18(93) [or 19 if you've got UB], and that's leaving out what the PC's Strength might be. So Anomen Grandmastering in Sling is quite an asset, since it's around all day, and as cool as having 2 Berserker Rages certainly is, they only last for a few rounds.

The only NPCs with naturally higher strength than Anomen are Minsc (18/93), Sarevok (18/00), and maybe Korgan (his is 18/xx, can't remember what exactly.) Now, I'll bash Anomen more than anyone, but his Strength is extremely high and he makes a great front-liner. Grandmastering in sling -- why would you do that, even if Anomen were left a cleric/fighter, leaving out the great Berserker assets? Slings are the weakest weapons in the entire game, except for darts. I don't think Anomen would be happy throwing little stones at enemies either. He's a brute force bullheaded crush his enemies musclebrain. Having him sit in the background playing with a strip of leather and some rocks is just... wrong.

[Kish]

Anomen actually has 18 DEX, since there's no one more deserving of the Gauntlets (except perhaps Keldorn, but when forced to choose between the two, the Gauntlets go to Anomen, since Keldorn's weapon proficiencies support keeping him as a Backup Tank anyway, as opposed to Anomen, who is capable of being the primary Tank).

The idea that a paladin should be a secondary tank while a fighter->cleric should be a primary tank is...really bizarre.  And why would a "primary tank" spend five proficiency points in a ranged weapon, now?  Anomen will probably not have Grand Mastery in more than one weapon by the end of ToB--at which point, incidentally, "primary tank" Anomen will be nearly always casting spells or turning undead while "secondary tank" Keldorn is Greater Whirlwinding.

[jester]

Sorry, I forgot that Hoar is LN.

[Andyr]

Why would anyone give a character with 18/xx Strength and 10-11 Dexterity more than one point in slings--much less spend five points there, when he only gets proficiency points at the rate of a cleric?
Put that against being able to become immune to level drain and Imprisonment, plus other combat bonuses.

Incorrect. Anomen actually has 18 DEX, since there's no one more deserving of the Gauntlets (except perhaps Keldorn, but when forced to choose between the two, the Gauntlets go to Anomen, since Keldorn's weapon proficiencies support keeping him as a Backup Tank anyway, as opposed to Anomen, who is capable of being the primary Tank).

Except he doesn't actually have 18 DEX. And there's nothing to say that another NPC or your PC won't wear the gauntlets, or that you'll even pick them up at all in the game. What about early on, before you get them? Or does only the party makeup at the final battle count? By the same argument, Viconia has 25 STR because she can hold the Hammer of Thunderbolts.  I think this is a silly argument.

The idea of Anomen completely losing faith (dropping his Cleric half and reverting to Fighter) is quite an interesting move--an un-Dual-Class if you will, but I don't think it makes sense for Anomen, since one of his CN Romance dialogues states that he knows Helm has not abandoned him, since he can still cast spells through his faith; his Order may have cast him out, but his god has not.

Becoming a Priest of Hoar is also a very interesting idea, but is argued against by that very same banter. Also, Anomen's CN alignment would seem to prohibit it: Hoar is the LN demigod of revenge, retribution, and poetic justice--his followers are most commonly of all non-Chaotic alignments. Odd--like it's out of character for a CG person to whack somebody who deserved it!

Like Hoar, Helm *is* LN, though, so shouldn't grant spells to a CN Priest except under very special circumstances. I don't think Anomen would qualify for those. Whatever Anomen says, it's not Helm abandoning him, it's him having abandoned Helm's path.

I think the original game would've made more sense if CN Anomen had lost his casting powers.

[SixOfSpades]

I am clearly *not* only considering party makeup in the final stags of ToB. That's why, in my listings of possible STR stats among the party, I notably left out 18(00), 20, and 22. To be specific, I am considering a party that is in Chapter 6 and has most likely killed a couple of Dragons (and/or optional battles of similar difficulty). Many players like to rush for Imoen quickly, and many others realize that there's more EXP in the game in general if you rush through the early game, so I'm figuring that the majority of the game is spent in Chapter 6. Those playing Improved Bodhi will spend even longer in Chapter 6.


neriana, you have impressed me with your game knowledge and rhetoric before, so I'm amazed that you could think that Slings are the weakest weapons in the game. Consider that
1) They have the highest enchantments of ammo (even in SoA, Sunstone Bullets are +4 enchanted)
2) The Sling of Everard doesn't even need bullets, striking as +5 if you go without 'em
3) Can be used with a Shield
4) Combines Sling + Bullet THAC0 and Damage bonuses
5) And the big one--ALL enchanted Bullets add the user's STR damage. Anomen. 18(52) Strength. 18 DEX. Sling of Everard. Bullets+2. Grandmastery in Sling. That's a -11 THAC0 bonus and +13 Damage bonus with every attack (as opposed to -7 and +8 with Keldorn + Carsomyr), and Anomen would get 3.5 attacks per round, I believe, with an average of 48 damage a round, assuming no misses or Critical Hits.
In short, Slings kick ass.

As for a Fighter->Cleric Tanking while a Paladin sits in the background: To some, the measure of a Tank is how much damage they can dish out. To me, it's how much damage they can absorb or avoid, and what spells they can shrug off. Now, the idea of my primary Tank being without a Shield is abhorrent to me--that's an automatic +5 penalty to AC. Now, Anomen's a fella who can run up front, block the hits, suck up the damage from the hits he does take, and in general be a competent blocker to shield my party while they launch a volley of missile fire and spells. His hitpoints are comparable to Keldorn's, his AC is better, and he's skilled with the FoA and the DoE, Tank weapons if there ever were any. True, his Saving Throws are notably worse--but not all that shabby, when you think about it; I actually used him as my main Tank in one game, and liked him, too. He needed all the Saving-Throw help he could get, but that's understandable. I would rank him perhaps as high as the 3rd best Tank in the game, after Korgan and Mazzy, though Valygar, Minsc, Jaheira and Keldorn are admittedly roughly as good. (Jaheira is better if you like Ironskins, but I prefer Insect Plague.)

As for my apparent split personality on whether Anomen is a Tank or a Slinger, not all fights are Tanked by the Tank. Who stands up to Adamantite Golems--is it the Fighter, or the Mordy's Sword? Who stands up to Improved Bodhi--is it the Fighter, or the Mage under PfMW? Who stands up to Beholders--is it the Fighter, or the Mustard Jelly? Who stands up to Dragons--is it the Fighter, or....um.....a bunch of people using ranged weapons and running around? A sling-happy Anomen can deal some real carnage in all of these situations. (Well, nothing really deals carnage to Adamantite Golems, so leave them out.)

Quote from: Andyr

Like Hoar, Helm *is* LN, though, so shouldn't grant spells to a CN Priest except under very special circumstances. I don't think Anomen would qualify for those.

Really? I would think that being ostracized and [turning away from / being turned away by] another deity because of a specific act of revenge, the principal element in Hoar's portfolio, should make him an obvious "lost soul" to take under his wing.

[Andyr]

Well, not if you're going to keep him CN, as Hoar is LN.

[SixOfSpades]

According to that website (which looks to be a darn good one), many gods have followers that are two steps away from their deity's alignment. Hoar, the demigod in question, is indeed LN, but has worshippers who are NG and NE. Why, then, should CN be out of the question?

[Kish]

That's considered more than two steps, even though you can literally get there in two steps (to True Neutral and then to Chaotic Neutral), since it's to the alignment directly opposed to LN.  It would be like Bhaal having Chaotic Good priests, or Tyr having Chaotic Evil ones.

[jester]

Well, if you change him into a priest of Hoar, his alignment could be changed accordingly. Would make sense in the story and I am sure it is not hardcoded. CN just makes him go nuts, but his shift to another deity would give him more profile and character. Priest of Helm (Paladinesque) if he passes, simple priest of Hoar, if he fails (read seeks retribution outside the law).

[SixOfSpades]

That's considered more than two steps, even though you can literally get there in two steps (to True Neutral and then to Chaotic Neutral), since it's to the alignment directly opposed to LN.  It would be like Bhaal having Chaotic Good priests, or Tyr having Chaotic Evil ones.

Bhaal (LE) to CG is four steps, as is Tyr (LG, I'm assuming) to CE.

Well, if you change him into a priest of Hoar, his alignment could be changed accordingly. Would make sense in the story and I am sure it is not hardcoded. CN just makes him go nuts, but his shift to another deity would give him more profile and character. Priest of Helm (Paladinesque) if he passes, simple priest of Hoar, if he fails (read seeks retribution outside the law).

That all works. LG or LN Priest of Helm, TN Priest of Hoar, CN Berserker?

New thought: Barbarians quite arguably use more "natural" and "feral" means to channel their rage, so what's the general reaction to not exactly making Anomen a Berserker, but just giving him a couple of Barbarian Rages?

[jester]

M y problem is exactly that a fighter/cleric can easier change deity than class over night. Though I think that some deities wouldn't take too lightly to this, but in Anomen's case that may seem plausible.

[SimDing0™]

Having re-read this, it occured to me that the outcome of Saerk's trial varying depending on your actions (this is the case both in vanilla BG2 and the proposal here) is rather unsatisfying. Yes, out-of-game knowledge, blah blah, but it's still cheap. As such, I'm vaguely contemplating better handling of events.

[Murdane]

It is true that back in 2nd edition, Helm did allow CN priests (not in 3rd edition though!).  However, having read the CN Ano dialogue, I felt that his CN personality is rather divergent from what Helm expects of his followers and priests.  Anomen constantly rattles on about how happy he is to be free to do whatever the heck he wants, but that is a far cry from following such dicates as "never betray trust", remain ever vigilant", and "stand, wait, and watch carefully" from a stern and uncompromising deity.  Of course there is room to rationalize that Anomen can still do those things, but when I look at the whole picture...I have trouble coming to terms with a tempermental, free-spirited (and quite violent) priest of a famously disciplinarian god.

Above all Helm's followers--regardless of alignment--are supposed to be protective guardians.  Isn't Anomen betraying trust and failing as a guardian when and if he kills Aerie or Keldorn in a state of rage, just because he loses his temper with them?  From my standpoint, even some evil characters would be able to understand that in an adventuring group, there is a sense of trust that exists, and each person must, to an extent, rely on the others in the group.  If a priest of Helm (of all gods) doesn't respect that, then he shouldn't be a priest of Helm any longer.

[Fawna]

  Hey anything to Anomen more depth im all for it....I just love them arrogant ones he does grow on ya

[Murdane]

I believe the LG version of Ano already has depth...

[Necaradan]

I like Anomen as he is w/ grandmaster in warhammer dualwielding Crom Faeyr and Runehammer/+4 Hammer Vs Golems/etc...Add combat buffs and you've got a killing machine.

But the Beserker idea sounds fine to me.