Author Topic: speaking of stating the obvious.  (Read 30291 times)

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #175 on: April 08, 2005, 08:02:36 AM »
So a quick checkup on world security:

Country is run by religious fanatics? Has all sorts of WMDs and every biological and chemical weapon in the book? Has a massive worldwide reach and enough financial power to pursue policies at a whim? Does not adhere or ratify most of the treaties to make the world a better place to live in? Government and administration are basically the same people who don't have to answer to anyone else? This country is responsible for financing and training terrorists, backing dictators and staging coups all around the world.

a) North Korea
b) Iran
c) Saudi Arabia
d) France
e) None of the above, but I cannot quite put my finger on it. Sorry next question. There is a next question right?

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #176 on: April 08, 2005, 08:45:50 AM »
(I love you, Jester.   8))
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Hendryk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 138
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #177 on: April 08, 2005, 10:34:48 AM »
Might the next question involve the very considerable difficulties such a willful and powerful hypothetical entity would experience in exacting even a minum of compliance from its supposed vassals and dependencies? 

Or perhaps a query might be in order about the economical unwisdom of such an entity which persists in maintaining an illusion of domestic prosperity only by an unprecedentedly massive sale of its assets to the world at large?

Or, as it may be, the question could consider whether or not the hypothecated waywardness of some such purely notional entity might be symptomatic of social disintegration, given that the interests of the politically persistant (and, therefore, successful) class now diverge from, to the point or outright opposition to, those of the overwhelming majority of its imaginary citizens.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #178 on: April 08, 2005, 10:49:16 AM »
@Jester - Maybe Kim is not a religious fanatic but he is certainly a fanatic. He supports NK by three main exports. Drugs, enriched uranium and counterfeit US dollars. As in the style of the average communist leader he is responsible for more deaths of his own people than people outside his borders. As to his cache of weapons, I don't know.

Iran - Well let's not forget the Iran/Iraq war that is estimated to have killed a million Iranians and Iraqis. Again I cannot claim to know what their cache of arms consist and neither does the US government. Certainly through their ineptitude (think 40,000 dead in Bam alone) which was admittedly caused by corruption among the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of deaths since the ascension of the theocratic government. Not to mention the Iraqi prisoners who were kept incarcerated for years. The oppression of their students, etc, etc.

 A footnote to the Iraq/Iran war, I read a memoir by a Iranian several years ago that had a story that the government would arrange false visisitations by the Ayatollah Khomeni (sp?) to the battle field, luminescent paint and all.

 Also, huge supporters of terrorism.

 Saudi Arabia I believe has only conventional weapons. Charges of supporting terrorism is common. There appears to be a soupcon of theocracy.

 I almost forgot France. I don't know if you have been following French history, from their involvement in foreign adventures, not to mention their African excursions, and their unwillingness to act in the Darfur situation, to the testing of nuclear weapons in the Pacific, including that unfortunate little incident involving the "Rainbow Warrior" in the 80s, and their support of dictators, etc. Not to mention their very warm friendships with numerous dictatorships.The French government has, imo, a very pragmatic world view. Frankly, I can't quite envision the French allowing any of their citizens to be tried before the world court.

 I know of few governments that do not deal or support dictators when it is in their national interests or when dealing with inconvenient rulers, do not work against the rulers. As to the treaties, many of them should be re-visited, and many have been signed for political expediance and status and of course are not followed. As to coups, American interferance has been sited in the recent Ukraine elections, again, foriegn intervention into a sovereign state is neither new nor the sole province of the US.

 Your post is much funnier and pithier than my post and not without truth.  ;)

(Cyber  :))

 As to our political system. I think a major flaw with our politicians is that they always play to a friendly audience. They rarely need to face a hostile crowd and win an arguement. When they go to sell a policy, they go to a friendly outlet. I think they live with a false sense of reality and much of what we (the people) see is simply theater. As to our low voter turnout, you have to have a pretty strong stomach in order to listen to a politician on the campaign trail. It is very easy to become revolted, imo. I still vote but I have yet to vote in any election with enthusiam.

 As to truth, I don't know, it takes so much effort to get. I still don't know if Bush won with the largest majority since Reagan or if it was the slimmest margin since Woodrow Wilson and I don't care but the fact that I would need to research for at least an hour to find out is ridiculous.

 As to abortion, I stated (probably in this thread) my opinion on abortion earlier and I won't go into it again except to say that I think it should be an option that is reasonably available but I will tell you about a recent experience that I had.

 When I was about seven weeks pregnant I was kicked in the back accidentally by a pony which resulted in bleeding kidneys for about seven months. Between 10 wks and 12 wks, I had an ultrasound to make sure there was no visible injury to the kidneys. During the ultrasound we also got a view of the baby, and while I did not see any smiling as I don't believe she was developed enough to see a smile, she was very active, and it was amazing to watch. But what does that mean? Does that mean I had an realization that I was carrying a child? No, I did not need to see the fetus, the baby in order to realize what an abortion means. Frankly, ghoulish pictures are meaningless.

 As to evolving/devolving cycles, well, whatever is old is new again (look at fashion) but on a more positive note I think by re-visiting old ideas, mores, rituals, etc, may have merit. Forinstance, the idea of family, today most of us realize that family is important, whether the family is comprised of the classic father/mother, it is an extended family through divorce, or same-sex couples and children, there has definately been a evolution of thought regarding family. Sexual restraint, not necessarily one partner for life, but restraint due to the rise of sexually transmitted diseases that are widespread, resistant and deadly, is perhaps not a bad idea. I think in many ways we have evolved socially, and in some cases we are more humane.

 I must end this post. Cyber will be the only one to read it.

@Hendryk - Something to ponder.

 

 

 

 

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #179 on: April 08, 2005, 11:09:48 AM »
@I must end this post. Cyber will be the only one to read it.

What makes you think that? I do not deny almost everything you said about those countries, but then again being on the Axis of Evil must have some benefits other than a breathing aparatus and a shiny helmet. If you base your actions on any kind of moral superiority, showing some from time to time would benefit the entire western world and the US in particular. And, yes, you mastered that test brilliantly. I suppose you would have picked d). :P

@Hendryk

Wow, I know I always go for cheap laughs and simplistic explanations and I see now, why I should leave the asking questions to the experts. :D They are a treat however.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #180 on: April 08, 2005, 11:54:12 AM »
@ Jester

What makes you think that?

 I am a mixture of realism and optimism. The realist realizes that if you ramble too much people get bored and the optimist in me hopes that Cyber might be more tolerant.

If you base your actions on any kind of moral superiority, showing some from time to time would benefit the entire western world and the US in particular.

 Nah. I figure the EU/Canada has more than enough moral superiority to protect the western world's reputation. Don't they?

 And, yes, you mastered that test brilliantly. I suppose you would have picked d). :P

 I must admit that I am the only member of my family for generations not to be a complete francophile and I do have an unreasonable antipathy (yes but I am joking) towards the French (not to do with freedom fries, or take your trash with you) but no. :-*


 

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #181 on: April 08, 2005, 04:10:20 PM »
@I figure the EU/Canada has more than enough moral superiority to protect the western world's reputation.

Sadly no. :( Do you think my kids will think about all the awful things Saddam did in Abu Ghraib? I guess every 50 years or so someone sets a new standard in non-civilization, but I fear the timeframe might be even shorter.

A casual Ghandi quotes for good measure:

"I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ."
--Ghandi

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #182 on: April 08, 2005, 08:16:14 PM »
I don't know Jester, sometimes it seems it takes 50 (or more) years just to begin discussing an event with a little rationality, clarity and perspective.
 
 I think you are being exceptional generous on your timeframe for atrocity. What is a new standard on non-civilization? The term genocide was coined in 1946, did that mean genocide had never existed before ww2? History would seem to tell us it existed. Our leaders would and do debate the term. How long did it take to term Rwanda a genocide? Too long. :(

 I have gone and depressed myself.

Offline Hendryk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 138
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #183 on: April 09, 2005, 04:27:51 AM »
@Hendryk

Wow, I know I always go for cheap laughs and simplistic explanations and I see now, why I should leave the asking questions to the experts. :D They are a treat however.

Thank you for that kind endorsement.  I must confess, though, that mocking American 'statesmen' has gotten so easy that it is no longer much fun.

The political heir of FDR was JFK.

The political heir of Ronald Reagan is George Bush, Jr.

One can only hope that the devolution of the American polity will not generate such friction as to render the entire globe uninhabitable.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #184 on: April 09, 2005, 05:00:05 AM »
(I think more people glance at this thread than post, but whether they read all the ramblings or not is another story)

The only reason I mention abortion is as it relates to the Pro-Life movement - and the Pro-Life movement as it relates to the good Christian folk.

Did anyone know that 10 states have now passed Conscience laws?  Not only do they apply to abortion but they also allow a Pharmacist to refuse to dispense birth control?  Because birth control is also murder, don't ya know.  11 more states are considering them.  Nice to know they can apply their religious beliefs to yet another aspect of my life.

Some ideas need to stay old and gone.

With regards to Jesters pop quiz... those countries, with the possible exception of France, aren't supposed to be models of decency and humanity.  We are.  Those countries make no attempts, really, to hide the acts they commit.  We do - at all costs. 

Maybe that's why Bush can't put a sentance together; he knows he lying though his teeth.  ;D

And the only reason Jr is Reagan's heir is because Sr didn't have 9-11.  He feared the backlash because he didn't have 9-11 to drive the fear of terrorists into the average american.  I suppose it's also possible that he didn't have the stomach, and Sr was no idiot.  (ahem)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 05:20:30 AM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Hendryk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 138
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #185 on: April 09, 2005, 05:20:41 AM »
George Sr. did have the first Iraq war - with the irrefutable causus belli of the occupation of Kuwait.  He may have done a lousy job of raising his kids but, I suspect, deep down he was, himself,  old-fashioned enough to have had some shreds of that now-extinct encumbrance known as moral fiber.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 05:22:40 AM by Hendryk »

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #186 on: April 09, 2005, 05:26:01 AM »
(oops.  ;D)

Well, one thing is for sure: this administration has raised the bar like no other has raised it before.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #187 on: April 09, 2005, 07:07:41 AM »
The only reason I mention abortion is as it relates to the Pro-Life movement - and the Pro-Life movement as it relates to the good Christian folk.

 Not to disrespect the Pope or to offend and pick on Catholics but the stance the Church took against even condoms (not infallible, of course) strikes me as criminal.

Did anyone know that 10 states have now passed Conscience laws?  Not only do they apply to abortion but they also allow a Pharmacist to refuse to dispense birth control?  Because birth control is also murder, don't ya know.  11 more states are considering them.  Nice to know they can apply their religious beliefs to yet another aspect of my life

 As I have said before, I does not surprise me that there are people and many people worldwide who vehemently oppose abortion but to oppose contraceptives and the morning after pill is ridiculous and frankly murderous and detrimental to women. I don't claim to be an expert on conception but the process of conception takes awhile and I believe I read somewhere that 50% of initial conception (sperm meets egg) naturally fails. It takes a certain amount of time for the fertilized egg to attach to the womb. There is no real scientific or ethical reason to oppose contraception or the morning after pill. The prevention of pregnancy is not murder. There is an arguement that abortion is a type of murder or simply extinction of potential human life.

 As to the "conscience" laws I must admit that I have heard of them but I have not read the laws. My feelings on them is twofold. In theory, I think a person should have the right to refuse if it is ethically repugnant yet if you have chosen to be a pharmacist it seems ridiculous to think that contraception would not be a large part of your professional life. The other issues are "state rights." Again, in theory, I usually agree with state rights to a degree.

Some ideas need to stay old and gone.

 Agreed.


With regards to Jesters pop quiz... those countries, with the possible exception of France, aren't supposed to be models of decency and humanity.  We are.  Those countries make no attempts, really, to hide the acts they commit.  We do - at all costs.  

 I doubt these various countries' leaders wake up every morning doing a little happy dance because they are not models of decency and humanity. The may wake up and do a happy dance because they are not the corrupt west. I think most of the countries on the list are known as "closed societies." We don't know what they are up to.

 As to the purported moral superiority of the US and other countries (not to lump all the countries under one umbrella) but what moral superiority? The only difference between the west (et al) and these regimes is that the people have the ability to hold their countries, (to some extent) their leaders to a higher standard.

 As to the US trying to hide at all costs our actions, well, how come a cache of wmds has not been suddenly found? Is that arrogance that we did not fake the evidence in finding weapons? I think the US is under a microscope. Not to sound paranoid but I think its actions are relatively known. Is it really surprising that the/a government would wish to downplay a Abu Ghraib? 

 


Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #188 on: April 09, 2005, 07:45:54 AM »
Damn you.  You're gonna make me dig up facts, aren't you?  :P

In the meantime, we didn't need to find WMDs.  Iraq was responsible for 9-11 and the world is better off without him.  Right?

 ::)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 07:48:24 AM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #189 on: April 09, 2005, 08:05:12 AM »
Damn you.  You're gonna make me dig up facts, aren't you?  :P

In the meantime, we didn't need to find WMDs.  Iraq was responsible for 9-11 and the world is better off without him.  Right?

 ::)

 No, no, you don't have to do sources because if you do sources than I will have to do sources and that is too much for me right now. :-[

 Well, yeah! Exactly. ;D

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #190 on: April 09, 2005, 08:45:54 AM »
As to the US trying to hide at all costs our actions, well, how come a cache of wmds has not been suddenly found?

There were none in the first place, because we did not restock our henchmen from the Iran/Iraq wars properly? :P

As for the Government Issued torture. I am not saying that you cannot do it. Just don't claim to do it because God told you so or for freedom and peace or for children and puppies. They had the means and the motivation. Fair enough. Now they should stand by their decisions.

People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #191 on: April 09, 2005, 08:56:07 AM »
As to the US trying to hide at all costs our actions, well, how come a cache of wmds has not been suddenly found?

There were none in the first place, because we did not restock our henchmen from the Iran/Iraq wars properly? :P


 exactly ;)

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #192 on: April 09, 2005, 09:57:47 AM »
Damn you.  You're gonna make me dig up facts, aren't you? 
No, no, you don't have to do sources because if you do sources than I will have to do sources and that is too much for me right now.
Good, because actual facts are even more depressing.  Am I'm tired of it, frankly.  :(

Something more troubling - My favorite quotable sight has not been updated since the election.  :-\

Torture:  Bush has said we do not do it.  Yet they elect people like Gonzalez.  Gonzalez has condoned the use of torture.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Veloxyll

  • Seeker of Shiny Things
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 781
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #193 on: April 09, 2005, 11:38:49 AM »
yes, but this is the same Bush who's made up an entirely new form of classification of PoWs so that he can elude any previous laws relating to ethics.
Shiny things, shiny things, shiny shiny shiny things!

Offline Eral

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 1281
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #194 on: April 09, 2005, 08:21:30 PM »
The political heir of FDR was JFK.
The political heir of Ronald Reagan is George Bush, Jr.

Why doesn't JFK have an heir? Why do we have Bush?  Who will Bush's heir be?
How much worse is it going to get?

I have gone and depressed myself.
Shall we meet at the pinot-noir thread?
If you see anything mysterious or unusual, just enjoy it while you can.  - Michael Leunig.

Offline Reverendratbastard

  • Perfunctory Psychopomp
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
  • Gender: Male
  • "to keep my metaphysics warm" -T.S.Eliot
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #195 on: April 10, 2005, 12:43:05 AM »
Why doesn't JFK have an heir?

 {mutters something about Cloud o' Conspiracy that obscures all image/goals/ambition of "The Democrats' Side"}
 nobody has been bold enough to make crazy decisions like having the treasury make 'honest' money, et al. ever since.
 well, that one bus driver showed me some of the old bills, anyway...  haven't seen him in 11 years...
 and because you didn't say political heir, we could start heaping up the jfk-jr jokes... look, new further conspiracy angles!  :P

Quote
Who will Bush's heir be?

 please please please don't let negroponte get any more power than he already has.

Quote
How much worse is it going to get?

 to the point where no one is asking that question?  or wanting to?

Quote
Shall we meet at the pinot-noir thread?

  gris for me. :D
the lord of murder shall perish, yadda yadda yadda.

Offline Hendryk

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 138
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #196 on: April 10, 2005, 01:38:06 AM »
Why did JFK lieave no political legacy?  Viet Nam.

Offline Nihilistic Dream

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 13
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #197 on: April 10, 2005, 06:01:25 AM »
Quote
Torture:  Bush has said we do not do it.  Yet they elect people like Gonzalez.  Gonzalez has condoned the use of torture.

Thats a smart one. if your not against it but you dont want to loose your political face then blame it on someone under you.
which is still very wrong, a leader should not state "We where misinformed". becouse that would meen your are a bad leader.
A leader should know everything that happens. (much like god knows everything)

Quote
As to the US trying to hide at all costs our actions, well, how come a cache of wmds has not been suddenly found?
The CIA had like a table with irak issuses, And which member of the CIA would come up with the best lies on the table would get a promotion. Pretty unfair, Saddam is evil but that was low of america.


Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #198 on: April 10, 2005, 12:09:58 PM »
http://www.bushbumperstickers.com/

The link says it all.  I particularly like: Impeach President Cheney & his little dummy, too.  Or: 51% is not a mandate.
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #199 on: April 10, 2005, 12:54:40 PM »
Old news, but it bears repeating now that I'm reminded of the 51% and I need closure.

from cnn.com Thursday, November 4, 2004 Posted: 2:26 PM EST

Quote
Despite Bush's appeal to Kerry supporters, Cheney said the popular vote victory gave Bush a mandate and the Bush White House would continue pushing for the Republicans' "clear agenda."

Bush received roughly 3.5 million more votes than Kerry did, thanks to strong backing from the GOP's conservative base as well as increased support from Latino, urban, Jewish, Catholic and female voters, according to exit polls.

Regular churchgoers, especially in the Midwest and South, turned out in disproportionate numbers to vote for the president, the exit polls indicated.

Bush thanked those supporters for their prayers on the rope lines during the campaign, and he indicated the direction of his own prayers.

The president's top political adviser, Karl Rove, said Bush was re-elected with a popular vote majority because the American people "recognize him as a consequential president" who had tackled both major domestic and international issues in his first term.

Rove said he was encouraged by the early reaction from some congressional Democrats, and said he expects "a period early in the new year where people reach out and work together, and we certainly want to do that."

Another article with #'s http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/02/election.main/index.html

Disturbing (liberal-progressive) article: http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1065

all the 2004 results, any way you want to see 'em: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/

The 'county by county' map: http://www.princeton.edu/%7Ervdb/JAVA/election2004/  (very cool to geeks like me as it adds terrain and pop. data, and has sources)

Democrats call the win 51%.  (Given a 62 million to 59 million vote count)  The republicans called this the greatest win since Reagan.  Reagan's win was over Mondale.  I could find #'s if I dug enough, but Mondale only carried (his home state of) Minnesota.  Kerry, while still a disheartening loss, carried 12 states.  (College vote of 286 to 252.)  So, as usual, who's zooming who?

 :pirate

[edited for typos; I hate typos]
« Last Edit: April 10, 2005, 06:07:32 PM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.