Author Topic: speaking of stating the obvious.  (Read 24404 times)

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2004, 02:39:09 AM »
an addendum/addition on Holmes:

On Tuesday the Senate confirmed Bush judicial nominee J. Leon Holmes to the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas in a 51-46 vote.
Holmes has written that abortion is akin to the holocaust. He also said that concern for rape victims is a red herring because conceptions from rape occur with approximately the same frequency as snowfall in Miami.
In an article he co-authored with his wife, he said a wife has an obligation "to subordinate herself to her husband" and "to place herself under the authority of the man."
Holmes' judgeship is a lifetime position.
(Source: www.chicagotribune.com, Chicago Tribune Online Edition, July 7, 2004. Neil A. Lewis, "Senate OKs Bush judicial pick: 3 Republican women vote 'no' in fierce debate," Chicago Tribune Online Edition, July 7, 2004. www.pfaw.org, People For the Am.)
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2004, 02:58:05 AM »
George W. Bush is the first president since Herbert Hoover who has not attended a National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) convention.
Bush declined a recent invitation to speak at the NAACP's upcoming annual convention. NAACP spokesman John White said that Bush has rejected every invitation to speak at their conventions since the president has taken office.

(Source:  "Bush Declines NAACP Invitation," The Associated Press, Thursday, July 8, 2004. See article at: www.cnn.com.)
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline melora

  • The Quiet Storm
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 539
  • Gender: Female
  • I don't need your attitude, i have one of my own !
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2004, 07:24:46 AM »
an addendum/addition on Holmes:

. He also said that concern for rape victims is a red herring because conceptions from rape occur with approximately the same frequency as snowfall in Miami.


i wonder where he got those statistics ?  out of his own imagination, i bet.  besides which, even if conception from rape only happens ONCE , it is once too often.

Somebody had to be me; it might as well be me.<br />-Charles Barkley

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2004, 02:53:58 PM »
I am pro-abortion. I believe that it is a necessity in a society. For various reasons, rape, incest, health, human error, birth control failure, etc. My personal belief is that on demand should be performed until the fifth month, after that time there should be a compelling reason to perform the abortion, whether health reasons, or any other compelling reason. I believe that if a woman is murdered when she is pregnant that should be considered a double homicide. I am unsure whether a woman should be ever charged with endangering a fetus as it seems that the reason it occurs is usually addiction, mental instability or ignorance. There are times when the father should probably be informed of a woman's decision to abort but I believe ultimately the decision is made at the woman's discretion. I am unsure of whether a state should be obligated to either supply birth control or supply abortion, or insurance companies, unless it is attendant to other health problems, I am also unsure as to whether insurance companies should be compelled to pay for fertility problems unless it is dependant upon another illness. I believe most abortions are performed due to human error and birth control failures. Perhap I am overly optimistic.

 All that said, I also believe that abortion is the taking of innocent human life or potential innocent human life. It does not surprise me that there are opponents to this procedure. It does not surprise me that these people would be appalled by the roughly forty million abortions that have been performed since Roe v. Wade.† I am surprised that anyone finds their idealism morally repugnant.

 I am at times appalled by the rhetoric on both sides of this issue. I was appalled that anyone objected to the fact that Scott Peterson was charged with double murder. Yet pro-choicers did object to the charge. I am appalled that people bomb abortion clinics. I am for life yet I will take life to show you how pro-life I am.

 It puzzles me that pro-choicers are frequently anti-capital punishment, and a common reason cited is that innocent people have been wrongfully executed, and it equally puzzles me that pro-lifers are frequently for the death penalty.

 However I do not mock either side, nor pretend there is no moral ambiguity to the question of abortion.

† The issues are complicated and certainly could be better handled by both sides of the political spectrum. Instead of rational discourse there is commonly only hyperbolic rhetoric which depresses me, and seems to lead nowhere. Also for the hell of it, what if we all agreed that abortion could be performed in the cases of rape, incest, health reasons, both physicial and mental*. Would that be an equable agreement?† No it would definately not satisfy pro-choicers, nor me. Some truth in Holmes arguement that the rape issue is a red herring.

 *In France, in the 50s that policy was followed by the French and a woman if she used the mental illness reason, would have to interviewed by two psycologists in order to procure an abortion. All she had to say was that she would harm herself if she was not allowed to abort. I understand it was an incredibly stressful process, and usually resulted in later abortions.

 

 

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2004, 07:59:55 PM »
It puzzles me that pro-choicers are frequently anti-capital punishment, and a common reason cited is that innocent people have been wrongfully executed, and it equally puzzles me that pro-lifers are frequently for the death penalty.
pro-choice does not = anti-life, it means pro-choice.  Pro-life, one can hope, does not = anti-choice... But the two sides will be forever locked in debate because they're speaking 2 different languages.

(yes, I am intentionally avoiding a debate  ;))
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Shed

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
  • ZOMG!
    • OMGWeRTehFuny
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2004, 08:53:20 PM »
I can't work out which is more scary:

George Dubya being Head of the USA's Armed Forces

or

A little under half of American people voted for him. This number is unlikely to change in the Presidential Election, saying disturbing things about most Americans

or

He mixes religious fundamentalism and right wing views with intimidating stupidity.
Quote from: jcompton
Whatever, man. We'll just see what happens when Seifer and Shed have another attack of "omg we are teh funy".

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2004, 09:21:12 PM »
In a 2002 Defense Department report that examined the policies and execution of the war in Afghanistan, retired Army colonel Hy Rothstein concluded that the victory in Afghanistan was not a strategic long-run success.

He noted that the bombing campaign was an ineffective way to hunt down Al Qaeda operatives. Moreover, it resulted in a number of civilian deaths that could have been avoided if Special Forces had been deployed and able to use methods of unconventional warfare. Finally, Rothstein believed the Special Forces would have negotiated with anti-Taliban elements to ensure that postwar Afghanistan did not degrade into its present state of anarchy.

When Rothstein delivered his report in January 2003, the Pentagon returned it to him with the message that he had to cut it drastically and soften his conclusions. When asked for comment, the Pentagon said, "We did not support all of his conclusions."

An unidentified former senior intelligence officer said, "It wasn't like he made it up ... the reason they're petrified is that it's true, and they didn't want to see it in writing."

(Source: Seymour M. Hersh, "The Other War," The New Yorker, issue of April 12, 2004.)
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2004, 12:49:29 AM »
The media watch group FAIR just released a study of Fox's flagship evening news program, finding Republican guests outnumber Democrats by 5 to 1.

Having an opinion is one thing. Insisting it is "fair and balanced" journalism is quite another.

(http://www.moveon.org/front/ Taking On Fox)

Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2004, 01:54:41 AM »
Friday, April 30, 2004
The Sinclair Broadcast Group ordered its seven ABC stations not to broadcast Friday's "Nightline" because host Ted Koppel intends to read the names of more than 500 U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war, as well as more than 200 others who died noncombat deaths.  Sinclair charges Koppel is merely trying to sway public opinion.

(source: http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/30/koppel/)

Sinclair's move caught the attention of Rep. Maurice Hinchey (D-N.Y.), a leading critic of media consolidation,
who said Sinclair is the company making a political statement, not ABC.

(http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000500784)

[Our major media outlets are currently controlled by a mere 5 corporations - who luvs ya  :(]
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline Regullus

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2004, 08:13:45 AM »
  I actually like Brit Hume's special report there are two reasons but the main reason is that the day Michael Jackson was booked, he was the only news program not to discuss nor mention the (non) event. All bias means is that you need to listen attentively and simply realize that most of what we get is op/ed news.  A viewer needs to be an informed consumer.   

Offline BigRob

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 78
  • Cruel and unusual trousers.
    • Aklon's Homepage
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2004, 11:03:05 PM »
Oh, for the days of honest politics, when the king was a crazed warmonger, but at least he said: "We're going to war so I can steal all their land and cash. Come along and you'll get a share. Who's on for that?"  ;D
Come on down to the Gibberlings Three! Home of Delainy, The Haer'Dalis Romance, Aklon, the Lands of Intrigue, the Tiefling Sisters, Tabiya and more! A veritable cornucopoeia of Modding goodness!

Aristothenes

  • Guest
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2004, 04:07:00 AM »
Since when was politics honest?

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2004, 07:00:02 AM »
A viewer needs to be an informed consumer.† †
I can do nothing but† :D

(Funny.† And here I thought they were (responsible for) giving us that information so we can be informed.† ::))

(ahem) next up:

"I want to thank my friend, Sen. Bill Frist, for joining us today.† He married a Texas girl, I want you to know. (Laughter.) Karyn is with us. A West Texas girl, just like me." Nashville, Tenn., May 27, 2004

"[T]he illiteracy level of our children are appalling." Washington, D.C., Jan. 23, 2004

"This is historic times." New York, N.Y., April 20, 2004

"Just remember it's the birds that's supposed to suffer, not the hunter." Advising quail hunter and New Mexico Sen. Pete Domenici, Roswell, N.M., Jan. 22, 2004

"One of the most meaningful things that's happened to me since I've been the governor - the president - governor - president. Oops. Ex-governor. I went to Bethesda Naval Hospital to give a fellow a Purple Heart, and at the same moment I watched him get a Purple Heart for action in Iraq and at that same --right after I gave him the Purple Heart, he was sworn in as a citizen of the United States--a Mexican citizen, now a United States citizen." Washington, D.C., Jan. 9, 2004

"Now, there are some who would like to rewrite history... revisionist historians is what I like to call them." Elizabeth, N.J., June 16, 2003

"y the way, we rank 10th amongst the industrialized world in broadband technology and its availability. That's not good enough for America. Tenth is 10 spots too low as far as I'm concerned." Minneapolis, Minn., April 26, 2004

"My job is to, like, think beyond the immediate." Washington, D.C., April 21, 2004

"Recession means that people's incomes, at the employer level, are going down, basically, relative to costs, people are getting laid off." Washington, D.C., Feb. 19, 2004

"I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." Washington, D.C., May 25, 2004

"God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear." Los Angeles, Calif., March 3, 2004

"I'm the master of low expectations." Aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things." Aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"King Abdullah of Jordan, the King of Morocco, I mean, there's a series of places--Qatar, Oman--I mean, places that are developing--Bahrain--they're all developing the habits of free societies." Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2004

"My views are one that speaks to freedom." Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2004

"[A] free Iraq is essential to our respective securities." Washington, D.C., June 1, 2004

"In my judgment, when the United States says there will be serious consequences, and if there isn't serious consequences, it creates adverse consequences."

"[W]e've had leaks out of the administrative branch, had leaks out of the legislative branch, and out of the executive branch and the legislative branch, and I've spoken out consistently against them, and I want to know who the leakers are." Chicago, IL, Sept. 30, 2003

"Washington is a town where there's all kinds of allegations. You've heard much of the allegations. And if people have got solid information, please come forward with it. And that would be people inside the information who are the so-called anonymous sources, or people outside the information--outside the administration." Chicago, Sept. 30, 2003

"[T]hat's just the nature of democracy. Sometimes pure politics enters into the rhetoric." Crawford, Texas, Aug. 8, 2003

"The recession started upon my arrival.† It could have been -- some say February, some say March, some speculate maybe earlier it started -- but nevertheless, it happened as we showed up here. The attacks on our country affected our economy. Corporate scandals affected the confidence of people and therefore affected the economy. My decision on Iraq, this kind of march to war, affected the economy." Meet the Press, Feb. 8, 2004

"I glance at the headlines just to kind of get a flavor for what's moving. I rarely read the stories, and get briefed by people who are probably read the news themselves."† Washington, D.C., Sept. 21, 2003

"We had a good Cabinet meeting, talked about a lot of issues. Secretary of State and Defense brought us up to date about our desires to spread freedom and peace around the world." Washington, D.C., Aug. 1, 2003

"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction." Milwaukee, Wis., Oct. 3, 2003

"My answer is bring them on." On Iraqi militants attacking U.S. forces, Washington, D.C., July 3, 2003

"Obviously, I pray every day there's less casualty." Fort Hood, Texas, April 11, 2004
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline jester

  • Here be dragons...
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 2416
  • If you fail, fail gloriously.
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2004, 07:39:03 AM »
[i"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction." Milwaukee, Wis., Oct. 3, 2003[/i]

Hahaha *sniff* No really, this is sad. I want to go back to cold war times. There we had at least hopes for disarmament. Now half of the world fears the guy with the big stick (and I do not mean BobTokyo!) and the rest fears the retaliation of the other side. More aid, fair trade and everybody can stay home and live happily ever after.
People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Why spend all your day surfing for porn?




Balance in all things
I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2004, 09:29:57 AM »
(ayuh.† It's highlighted because it's so hypocritical it's sickening)

and then, for more on the Whoopie/Bush/Kerry saga -
Quote
http://www.politics.com/discussion.html?cid=1&mid=237376
Slime-Fast fires Whoopi over Bush jokes furor

(CNN) -- Weight loss product manufacturer Slime-Fast announced Wednesday it had dropped Whoopi Goldberg as its spokeswoman, following a controversy over comments she made last week at a fund-raiser in New York for presumptive Democratic nominee Sen. John Kerry.

"We at Slime-Fast trust the public understands that the way in which Whoopi Goldberg chose to express her own personal beliefs at the recent fund-raiser at Radio City Music Hall does not reflect the views and values of Slime-Fast," said a statement from Terry Olson, general manager and vice president of marketing.

"We are disappointed by the manner in which Ms. Goldberg chose to express herself and sincerely regret that her recent remarks offended some of our consumers. Ads featuring Ms.Goldberg will no longer be on the air," the statement added.

Some conservative groups and GOP supporters had threatened to boycott Slime-Fast products if it did not take action.

Goldberg said she wished "godspeed" to Slime-Fast and its users and hoped "that everything will be better digested, now that I'm no longer representing them."

"I've done material on every president in the past 20 years, from Reagan to Carter, from Clinton to Bush. I have used portions of the material I did at the fund-raiser in shows, speeches and even on national television and it seems now that people from the other side are using this to further their own agenda," her statement continued.

The Bush-Cheney campaign has demanded that the Kerry-Edwards campaign release video or film footage of the event, saying Americans deserved to decide for themselves about it.

In response, the Kerry campaign said it would not release the footage unless the Bush campaign released a raft of documents "relating to Bush's performance in office" -- including records of Vice President Dick Cheney's energy task force, among others.

Letter to Bush Cheney í04

Campaign Manager Ken Mehlman

Yesterday, I received a letter from Bush Cheney í04 Campaign Manager Ken Mehlman asking our campaign for a tape of a recent fund-raising event.

Today, I sent the following reply:

July 13, 2004

Ken Mehlman
Campaign Manager
BUSH-CHENEY '04, Inc.
P.O. BOX 10648
Arlington, VA 22210

Dear Ken:

Over the past several months, allies of the President have questioned John Kerryís patriotism while your staff has criticized his service in Vietnam. Republicans and their allies have gone so far as to launch attacks against his wife and your campaign has run $80 million in negative ads that have been called baseless, misleading and unfair by several independent observers.

Considering that the President has failed to come even close to keeping his promise to change the tone in Washington, we find your outrage over and paparazzi-like obsession with a fund-raising event to be misplaced.

The fact is that the nation has a greater interest in seeing several documents made public relating to the Presidentís performance in office and personal veracity that the White House has steadfastly refused to release.

As such, we will not consider your request until the Bush campaign and White House make public the documents/materials listed below:

● Military records: Any copies of the Presidentís military records that would actually prove he fulfilled the terms of his military service. For that matter, it would be comforting to the American people if the campaign or the White House could produce more than just a single person to verify that the President was in Alabama when said he was there. Many Americans find it odd that only one person out of an entire squadron can recall seeing Mr. Bush.

● Halliburton: All correspondence between the Defense Department and the White House regarding the no-bid contracts that have gone to the Vice-Presidentís former company. Some material has already been made public. Why not take a campaign issue off the table by making all of these materials public so the voters can see how Halliburton has benefited from Mr. Cheney serving as Vice-President?

● The Cheney Energy Task Force: For an Administration that claims to hate lawsuits, itís ironic that the Bush White House is taking up the Courtsí time to keep the fact that Ken Lay and Enron wrote its energy policy in secret behind closed doors. Please release the documents so that the country can learn what lobbyists and special interests wrote the White House energy policy.

● Medicare Bill: Please release all White House correspondence between the pharmaceutical industry and the Administration regarding the Medicare Bill, which gave billions to some of the Presidentís biggest donors. In addition, please provide all written materials that directed the Medicare actuary to withhold information from Congress about the actual cost of the bill.

● Prison Abuse Documents: A few weeks ago, the White House released a selected number of documents regarding the White Houseís involvement in laying the legal foundation for the interrogation methods that were used in Iraq. Please release the remaining documents.

We also wanted to wish you a happy anniversary.

As we are sure you and the attorneys representing the President, Vice-President and other White House officials are aware, today marks one year since Administration sources leaked the identity of a covert CIA agent to Bob Novak in an effort to retaliate against a critic of the Administration.

In light of the fact that the Administration began gutting the laws protecting the nationís forests yesterday, we hope you will accept the paper on which this letter is written as an anniversary gift as the one year anniversary is known as the ďpaper anniversary.Ē

Sincerely,

Mary Beth Cahill
Campaign Manager
Kerry Edwards '04
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 10:30:23 AM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline BobTokyo

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 129
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2004, 09:41:56 AM »
(ayuh.  It's highlighted because it's so hypocritical it's sickening)
http://www.politics.com/discussion.html?cid=1&mid=237376


You are quoting an altered article. The real situation is bad enough; you weaken your position by altering source material / quoting obvioulsy altered source material.

Note that I do not object to your position as such.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 09:49:10 AM by BobTokyo »

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2004, 10:17:06 AM »
It's the blurb and letter in it's entirety - what are you talking about?† ???

Uh.† Guess I'll make it a little clearer.† :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 10:22:06 AM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline BobTokyo

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 129
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2004, 10:30:24 AM »
It's the blurb and letter in it's entirety - what are you talking about?† ???

Uh.† Guess I'll make it a little clearer.† :)
Here is the original article:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/07/14/slimfast.whoopi/

The changes may have been for humorous effect, but any change to source material damages credibility.



Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2004, 10:36:18 AM »
Gosh.  Thanks Bob, but I'm not exactly worried about my credibility.  btw, That article was quoted/linked in the other thread and this was a continuation of that. 

I didn't change the source material.  ;)
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline BobTokyo

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 129
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2004, 10:45:09 AM »
Gosh.† Thanks Bob, but I'm not exactly worried about my credibility.† btw, That article was quoted/linked in the other thread and this was a continuation of that.†

I didn't change the source material.† ;)

So you quoted obviously altered source material.

As to your worries about your credibility, I guess that depends on how seriously you take the issue. If you're just trying to rally the faithful, it may not matter as much. If you want to change minds, credibility has value.

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2004, 11:16:02 AM »
Okaaaaayyyy.  Just so we're clear here, Bob:  (ahem)

The only alteration I am aware of in the above quoted post http://www.politics.com/discussion.html?cid=1&mid=237376, is the change from "Slim" to "Slime".  I actually didn't notice the alteration at the time I posted said letter/post.

Are we done now?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 11:18:39 AM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline BobTokyo

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 129
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2004, 12:35:33 PM »
Okaaaaayyyy.  Just so we're clear here, Bob:  (ahem)

The only alteration I am aware of in the above quoted post http://www.politics.com/discussion.html?cid=1&mid=237376, is the change from "Slim" to "Slime".  I actually didn't notice the alteration at the time I posted said letter/post.

Are we done now?

Sorry Cyber, I am taking an internet discussion too seriously. Alteration of source material in a debate is just a pet peve. :)

I recently had a student show up with an article he claimed had been taken from the AP about the Edwards nomination. The first half was (mostly) the original AP article. The end was a series of obvious attacks on Edwards. The student, who had received the article by email, took it very seriously. I've seen an endless series of similar bits of stupidity over the past couple of years, just part of the glory of net propaganda. I feel strongly that we are no longer capable of functioning as a country once we accept that kind of nonsense. You can't have an honest debate when you no longer care about the validity of your own arguments.

No need to spill that over into a half serious political discussion on a game board. ;)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 01:22:49 PM by BobTokyo »

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2004, 01:05:56 PM »
fair enough, Bob.  You make a good point.  :) 

(besides, I'm sure were I to admit that I take quite a few of them too seriously you would not be surprised, hmm?  ;D)

I am trying to show due diligence, as I do want people to -think- and -ask questions- (er.. not of me, but anyway..), but I sure in hell hope to "rally the troops" as well.  It's not like there's a shortage of material  ;)

for complete satire, check this: http://bush2004.net/greensheet/gs_22.html
(yes, the whole site is spoof.. really.)

Or this up and comer: http://www.gore4dean.com/
(now that should be obvious, hmm?  8))
« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 01:28:39 PM by Cybersquirt »
Stupid is as stupid does.

Offline BigRob

  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 78
  • Cruel and unusual trousers.
    • Aklon's Homepage
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2004, 10:20:41 PM »
"This is historic times." New York, N.Y., April 20, 2004

 :o Oooookaaayyy.
Come on down to the Gibberlings Three! Home of Delainy, The Haer'Dalis Romance, Aklon, the Lands of Intrigue, the Tiefling Sisters, Tabiya and more! A veritable cornucopoeia of Modding goodness!

Offline Cybersquirt

  • Socialist Evil-Doer
  • Planewalker
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
  • Gender: Female
Re: speaking of stating the obvious.
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2004, 07:15:10 PM »
In January 2002, Vice President Cheney refused to let a congressional oversight body see records of his Enron meetings. The records might have helped determine how much influence the company may have had over the energy policy Cheney's task force developed in 2001.

Cheney explained his refusal to publicize what took place at the meetings by saying that he and the president should be allowed to do their work in secret.

He told CNN in 2002:

"I have been in town now off-and-on for 34 years. And during that period of time, there's been a constant, steady erosion of the prerogatives and the power of the Oval Office, a continual encroachment by Congress, War Powers Act, Anti-Impoundment and Budget Control Act, previous instances where presidents have given up, if you will, important principles. So the office is weaker today than it was 30, 35 years ago."

The administration that was in office 30, 35 years ago was the Nixon administration, in which Cheney served. Watergate took place during this same period in Nixon's first term, causing Congress to later establish reforms that made it more difficult for a president to conduct politically motivated burglaries.

(Sources: "Cheney: We're keeping papers secret on principle," CNN, Jan. 29, 2002. Elisabeth Bumiller, "Enron's Many Strands: The Vice President; Cheney Is Set to Battle Congress to Keep His Enron Talks Secret," New York Times, Jan. 28, 2002. Adam Clymer, "Judge Says Cheney Needn't Give Energy Policy Records to Agency," New York Times, Dec. 2002.)


On December 10, 1985, then-Congressman Cheney voted against the Community Right to Know Act, an amendment that would require oil, chemical, and other polluting facilities to report their toxic emissions. On the same day, he voted against the Citizen's Right to Sue Polluters Act, an amendment that would allow citizens to sue in federal court if they were harmed by pollution from abandoned toxic-waste sites.

(Source: www.commondreams.org. "Cheney Pick Would Be Threat to Environment, Supported Oil Industry on Many Issues," The Sierra Club, July 24, 2000.)


Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has refused to let Congress see all the information pertaining to the Air Force's proposed lease and purchase of one hundred 767 aerial refueling tankers from Boeing Co.

The inspector general began auditing the proposed $23 billion deal when it was revealed that Air Force official Darleen Druyun helped negotiate the tanker contract while Boeing was offering her a job. Nine months later she accepted a position as deputy general manager of Boeing's missile defense systems. In April she pleaded guilty to conspiracy charges for her actions.

The Congressional Budget Office found that the deal would have cost as much as $5.7 billion more than a conventional purchase.

In addition, a 2001 Air Force study found that the current fleet could last until 2040. Nevertheless, President Bush has been a strong supporter of the deal, saying "Boeing is going through a difficult period ... I do support it [the deal]."

Documents hidden from Congress include communications between the White House and the office of Management and Budget. Republican Senator John McCain said that Rumsfeld's refusal to share information will "eviscerate the responsibility of Congress to provide oversight in such matters."

(Source: Galloway, Joseph, "Rumsfeld Restricts Senate Access to Documents in Boeing Deal," Knight-Ridder Newspapers, Thursday June 3, 2004. "U.S. Air Force Ex-official Admits to Boeing Deal," Columbia Daily Tribune, April 21, 2004. "Feds Probe Boeing Deal," CBSNews, Sept. 18, 2003.)
Stupid is as stupid does.