Incest Please

[SimDing0™]

As an interesting note, I'm fairly sure the Realms have 100% effective contraception, which rather changes the genetic argument against incest.

Still, it's pretty sick...

[Kish]

Notice how they are the only two kids raised in the keep?

Actually, no--I don't notice that at all...

So there is no genetic bond,

...in the opinion of Viconia.  Imoen disagrees.  Viconia is hardly an authority.

[Domi]

A notable exception is Egypt

I believe that Inca is such an exception as well. The direct cause of incest in both cases is divinity-related, so it is just asking imo to be put in BG. Though Imoen will not be my pick for that line. Sarevok or Illasera harbour more possibilities imo.

[jester]

I hate to date people with sunglasses or glowing eyes.

Illasera would be a good choice (aha, another ranger ), but I would prefer Sendai.

[Mongoose87]

I wouldn't be surprised if ancient Greeks aproved of incest.  Theirgods' family tree is a wreath.

[Domi]

I think not, actually. As far as I remeber it was treated as a subject of a tragedy. Oedipus (however you spell it in English) comes to mind immideatly. I got this quote form somewhere, though it is a very short summary, and I do not know how unbias it is. I am not sure I agree with their estimate of Zeus though That guy got around. :

The gods were protectors of the moral order when particularly needed -- some things were just not done: perjury, incest, violation of hospitality. The sexual affairs of Zeus were a matter of genealogy, not lust, in order to bring some system into the divine society. An order of justice (nemesis) stood behind human beings. On the human level, Homer represents a shame culture [what was "not done"], as distinct from a guilt culture [the idea of sin in a Jewish or Christian sense]. In general, the standard was public opinion and not a code of conduct.

[MERLANCE]

Is anybody in this thread actually arguing against the mod?

*raises hand*

I am!

Not because of the incest factor, but because of the deus ex machina, the raping, and the atrocious writing.

[jester]

The meaning of deus ex machina is something I don't get in that context.

[Cybersquirt]

If anyone is going to start bashing the mod I dare you to take it to Lord M's forum. 

So - the question is why should incest be allowed in a (or should that be A) mod?  Is that correct, Sim?  I just want to make sure because I sense a bit of waffling here. 

[jcompton]

Yes, that's Sim's question.

[SimDing0™]

The question is "Why shouldn't incest be in a mod?"

Yes, it's disgusting, but I don't really see that as a good reason not to include it.

If anyone is going to start bashing the mod I dare you to take it to Lord M's forum.

I'd love to, but I have no doubt that people would get pissy and it would be locked by some well-meaning moderator.

[Quitch]

I find it fascinating that anyone leapt in crying incest, yet didn't notice the fragile foundation they were standing on, even as it collapsed underneath them.

Where exactly is this proof of incest?  Brother and sister are just names to be bandied around, but incest is to do with the genetic make-up.  Where is the proof that the player and Imoen have anything genetically in common?  No one knows how Bhaal spawned his children, for all we know he sprinkled magic pixie dust on the womb of the mother.  You're dealing with a god, yet everyone, while taking magic for granted, treats this as a sure fire genetics issue.  Who says?

Even Bioware tackled it as noted earlier

Viconia : "I am curious over something, Imoen.  Your sibling saved you from imprisonment and restored your soul.  Yet for all this you have never shown proper gratitude.  Why is that?"

Imoen: "Proper gratitude?  I'd hate to think what your idea of proper gratitude would be, Viconia."

Viconia: "You owe <CHARNAME> your entire being.  You should, at the very least, act as <PRO_HISHER> personal slave.  Cater to <PRO_HISHER> every whim."

Imoen: "<CHARNAME> is my half-<PRO_BROTHERSISTER>, you know!  I owe <PRO_HIMHER> my life, but let's not take it that far!"

Viconia: "Your common parent is a god.  This hardly counts towards any sort of common genetic bond, and even less of a reason to shirk what you owe <CHARNAME>."

Imoen: "<CHARNAME> and I grew up together.  I love <PRO_HIMHER> just as I loved Gorion.  <CHARNAME> may feel differently, I don't know... but it doesn't matter."

This banter is representative of the players, and probably Bioware themselves, the never ending, unprovable argument of whether the player and Imoen are genetically related.

Now while you may argue against the writing and other ideas, I fail to see the problem with this.  It is the most fascinating basis for a romance there is.  Basically, it all comes down to what Imoen and the player believe.

As for rape, I think the priorities of some people are well off.  You can slaughter innocents, and that's fine, but OH MY GOD SOMEONES WRITTEN A RAPE SCENE!  Woah!  Lynch the man.

Perspective is something some of the people here could do with a hefty dose of.  I'm sure there are many valid points against the Imoen Romance mod, but the issues Lord M chose to tackle should be ones of the pros of the mod, not the cons.  It's fresh and hasn't been done before.  Do we really need another Bioware romance copy?  Thank God someone didn't think so.

[Cybersquirt]

(actually Viconia was discounted as not being an authority  )

[jester]

As incest (at least for me implies consent) I think it cannot be compared to ripping your neighbours head of. If it is even consenting adults it is off limits to the general public. If they are not clerics of a particular faith that does not like it, it is their choice. The rape portion is about sexual desire going awry. I read a statistic once about the huge number of rape victims who knew their assailants before. Writing about rape is not condoning it, but I subscribe to the idea that there are enough 'regular' romances around to cater for this segment.

What Vic said is irrelevant, perhaps Nightmare would know how gods multiply. Either they are genetically linked or not. In the first case it is a matter of moral qualms and society vs consenting adults and gameplay, in the second case, it would make the word incest inappropriate.

As for something being disgusting: I find torture to be the most degrading and repulsive thing. Compared to that incest is peanuts.

[nurgles_herald]

In DnD, particularly the FR, gods could never physically enter the prime material plane.  They could travel everywhere else, but their power couldn't get them into the prime material plane due to the extreme amount of divine attention paid to said plane.  If gods/godesses wanted to influence the prime material plane, they had to send an avatar.  More powerful deities could manufacture and control more avatars, while some of the lesser gods could use only one (demigods rarely had any).  Therefore, because Bhaal had to spawn all of his children long before the Time of Troubles (which was the only time in recorded history that the gods came into the prime material plane), it can be assumed that Imoen and <CHARNAME> are not directly genetically related.

An avatar, as powerful as it is, is a spiritual manifestation of a deity's power and lacks certain anatomical abilities- namely the ability to reproduce.  Therefore, Bhaal must have come up with some other way to spawn his children.  Btw, I'm getting this from both Legends and Lore (a source book for AD&D 2nd Ed) and the box set for Forgotten Realms.  If you can prove me wrong, please do, because all this is guess work and is most probably wrong in some way or another.

Conclusion- Imoen and <CHARNAME> cannot possibly be genetically related, unless they were (impossibly) spawned by the same mortal parents.  Which they weren't.

[BigRob]

An avatar, as powerful as it is, is a spiritual manifestation of a deity's power and lacks certain anatomical abilities- namely the ability to reproduce. 

Zeus/Jupiter certainly never had any problems of this kind. The creation of the Bhaalspawn could be by avatar, posessed mortal or just because Bhaal wanted there to be a Bhaalspawn there. The only real info we have is that Bhaal "Walked the Realms" which could mean practically anything. 

[jester]

'A possessed mortal' would not be very likely be the very same person for the PC and Imoen IMO.

[mcruz]

In BG there doesn't seem to be any indication of Bhaalspawn having a father as a vessel (i.e Bhaal possesing someone) so it seems that Bhaal used another way to reproduce his offspring.......to me this is just a mystery......

If we're talking in terms of genetics it's kinda funny to think that Bhaal didn't have any DNA because the PC for instance gets half the DNA from mommy and the other half from daddy (thus any PC would be walking around with half the DNA of a normal being, unless of course Bhaal did possess another being and you know the rest....), of course though whether genetics has a place in FR is another matter

[BobTokyo]

In BG there doesn't seem to be any indication of Bhaalspawn having a father as a vessel (i.e Bhaal possesing someone) so it seems that Bhaal used another way to reproduce his offspring.......to me this is just a mystery......

If we're talking in terms of genetics it's kinda funny to think that Bhaal didn't have any DNA because the PC for instance gets half the DNA from mommy and the other half from daddy (thus any PC would be walking around with half the DNA of a normal being, unless of course Bhaal did possess another being and you know the rest....), of course though whether genetics has a place in FR is another matter

The PC could get all of her DNA from her mother; a male PC would be more of a problem, but you can always say that "Add Y Chromosome" is a level 0 cantrip that many gods know . . .

Personally I prefer the possessed mortal father theory.

[Domi]

Conclusion- Imoen and <CHARNAME> cannot possibly be genetically related, unless they were (impossibly) spawned by the same mortal parents.  Which they weren't.

That is why I would insist on the same mortal mother to qualify as an incestual mod. 

inscest - sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that they are forbidden by law to marry; also : the statutory crime of such a relationship

I believe that half-brothers and half-sisters are forbidden to marry...

[mcruz]

If the PC gets all of the DNA from the mother then the PC would be a clone of the mother (unless you mutate it without horribly messing it up) but it''s not impossible though..........

[Dark Raven]

Conclusion- Imoen and <CHARNAME> cannot possibly be genetically related, unless they were (impossibly) spawned by the same mortal parents.  Which they weren't.

That is why I would insist on the same mortal mother to qualify as an incestual mod. 

inscest - sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that they are forbidden by law to marry; also : the statutory crime of such a relationship

I believe that half-brothers and half-sisters are forbidden to marry...

I should hope so.

[BobTokyo]

If the PC gets all of the DNA from the mother then the PC would be a clone of the mother (unless you mutate it without horribly messing it up) but it''s not impossible though..........

How do we know that a female CHARNAME isn't a clone of her mother? A male CHARNAME would be a magically altered clone.

The Imoen romance is a Clonecest mod.

[Kish]

The question that would raise in my mind is--why is a male Bhaalspawn magically altered?  Why would Bhaal bother?  What does he care if all his spawn are female?  If he thinks males are better in some way, then I'd expect them all to be male.  The fact that they can be either gender suggests that the gender of a Child of Bhaal, like the gender of a fully human child, is generally randomly determined rather than chosen.

[BobTokyo]

The question that would raise in my mind is--why is a male Bhaalspawn magically altered?  Why would Bhaal bother?  What does he care if all his spawn are female?  If he thinks males are better in some way, then I'd expect them all to be male.  The fact that they can be either gender suggests that the gender of a Child of Bhaal, like the gender of a fully human child, is generally randomly determined rather than chosen.

Which works fine with the "Posessed Mortal Father" or "Y Chromosome from the Avater" theories of how the children were conceived. The magical alteration idea only applies to the "Bhaalspawn Parthenogenesis" theory.