Incest Please

[MERLANCE]

I didnt mean it "that way", just to point that out.

I apologize for becoming angry with your comment, as when people dont have any refutations or anything better to say, they attack grammar and word use. I assumed you were doing that. Again, I apologize.

[julwise]

Well, thanks for the apology. Everyone misinterprets words sometimes. I mean I did misinterpret your comment about the rape scence after all. So all's well.

*Wishes she had something more to add to the topic at hand*

[chaz58]

Just because incest isn't acceptable in the real world, doesn't mean you shouldn't make a mod about it. Killing people is also not acceptable, but we do that ingame.

Exactly, I agree 100%.

Whenever I see people complaining about how horrified they are at having incest in a computer game, it pisses me off quite a bit.  It's a game.  It isn't real.  Not only that, it's a game that, as Sim says, allows the player to indulge in all manner of unacceptable behaviour, from stealing from shop owners to murdering innocent children.  It would be a different story if someone, for example, made an incest related mod for the latest Harry Potter game, that would be entirely inappropriate for the setting. 

[Ruben]

[Exactly, I agree 100%.

Whenever I see people complaining about how horrified they are at having incest in a computer game, it pisses me off quite a bit.  It's a game.  It isn't real.  Not only that, it's a game that, as Sim says, allows the player to indulge in all manner of unacceptable behaviour, from stealing from shop owners to murdering innocent children.  It would be a different story if someone, for example, made an incest related mod for the latest Harry Potter game, that would be entirely inappropriate for the setting. 

I can agree with you perfectly to one exception. Yeah theirs nothing terribly wrong with stealing, incest or such topics being included in video games, they have been included in books of many genres for years. Though what I do have a problem dealing with, is an entire setting of a game being based around those topics.  Though Baldur's Gate does not fall into that catergory.

[Domi]

I will speak in defence of the inscest in fiction as well and in BG in particular, because inscest sometimes is associated with "pure" blood of kings/gods, and BG with its narrow focus on PC and his/her siblings descent from a god is a good breedimng ground for it. I nthis atmosphere someone is bound to harbour the idea that the only worthy mate for a Bhaalspawn is another Bhaalspawn. I think it is an interesting enough situation to explore - in the game reality.

[BobTokyo]

the only worthy mate for a Bhaalspawn is another Bhaalspawn.

Which is why CHARNAME must marry the Chinchilla!

I see another romance mod on the horizon. . .

[jester]

I really liked Domi's point. The Imoen romance for me feels like the film 'The Cement Garden' (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106535/). It is an interesting addition to the game.

Besides you could always romance Sarevok instead for those who consider the Chinchilla sodomy.

[Kish]

I think you may mean "bestiality," Jester.

[jester]

Having sex with an animal is bestiality? I think Bhaalspawn romances should not be platonic.

[nurgles_herald]

Having sex with an animal is bestiality? I think Bhaalspawn romances should not be platonic.

Actually, yeah.  Having sex with an animal is bestiality, believe it or not.  Back on topic....

My five cents-

@ Domi- the "pure blood" thing could be even more believable, depending on your characters alignment.  Personally, as Bhaal was the evil god of murder, I think that a good aligned character would hardly want the seed of Bhaal to remain concentrated and alive.  However, an evil or (possibly) neutral character might think differently.  The evil character might actually want daddy to come back, whereas a neutral character may just not care.  Personally, though, I think that chaz is absolutely correct- it is just a game.  Just as we indulge all our evil, perverse, or secret wants and lusts through movies, books and other media, so too do we live in fantasy in BG2.  It's important to point out that it's fantasy.  That doesn't just mean there are elves and dwarves and such.  Fantasy encompases much more than that (for instance, Star Wars is a fantasy.  Lucas said so himself.  No elves, though).

However, the "I need to pee" and "I need to poo" lines are just dumb.  Even a CN character could come up with more intellegent lines than that, and they would probably express more CNness than the two lines that appear in the actual mod.  Personally, I think those lines are just dumb.  Not funny.  Potty humor should be reserved for six-year-old boys or tomboys.  Everyone else just sounds dumb when they use it.  Just my five cents on the matter.

[jester]

OOOps my Denglish led me astray, although I was quite certain it could also be used.

I think there is a certain strange bonding process between the tainted ones, if they only spend enough time together. This ends a Viekang romance prematurely, everybody else tries to kick your head in. So your friendly Bhaalspawn neighbour is a natural choice. For the weak story see Kish's critique on BG1 background tweaking of Imoen. Doing a prequel could be just as hard as the failed attempt to create a vivid, catching story for 1-3 showed us all.

[Domi]

Personally, as Bhaal was the evil god of murder, I think that a good aligned character would hardly want the seed of Bhaal to remain concentrated and alive.  However, an evil or (possibly) neutral character might think differently.

Or a good character can be corrupted trhough such a union or there can be a need for a good character to do so... After all even Gandalf the Grey said that "I will take it out of desire to do good..." There are plenty of possibilities. And of course it is a fantasy story, though I do not think that it is necessarily the actual dark desires that drives us to seek out the unusual and corrupted plots, but rather curiosity to see how it might have happened

[Sovran]

Since I have some spare change rattling in my pocket... I haven’t played the Imoen Romance, so I’m talking on a general level here.

In the real world, the nice people in white coats mainly set the rules for the children of the gods. Barring that, what kind of moral code is there – in the real world, or in FR? I don’t think that demigods, or their relationships, are quite commonplace in Faerun, either, even though they do exist.

Everyone, myself included, may have his or her own opinion on the matter. If we have trouble deciding on what’s allowed and what isn’t, why would the characters themselves find it any easier? Why not make the points that have been made in this discussion in-game? By now, it should be safe to say that different protagonists, played by different people, could have different reactions to his/her heritage, as well as Imoen's. Suppose, for instance, that Charname has had this soft spot for Imoen for some time now. He finds out she's a Child of Bhaal as well, feels queasy because of the implications, tries to figure it out, and finally decides she's off limits. That's one simple possibility, and there are others besides "torrid incestuous affair" and "uncomplicated, siblingly and platonic coexistence". And, as has been stressed before, "character" is the operative word here.

[Cybersquirt]

This isn't trolling. I saw Neriana's post on Studios about it, and it intrigued me, so I posted rather than drag it off topic.

This post was/is where?  (before I begin my usual rant, I'd like to see what prompted this  )

[SimDing0™]

I can't remember. It was a regular "oh my god, you can't put incest in a game!" post.

[Kish]

I can't remember. It was a regular "oh my god, you can't put incest in a game!" post.

You know, I'm fairly confident Neriana would not agree this is an accurate paraphrase of her post.

I would guess you're referring to this post, though in the interests of showing more courtesy than you have, I won't claim to know for sure, since only you really know what post you're thinking of.

[SimDing0™]

She looks to be implying that modders "shouldn't" put incest in the game to me.

[jester]

Any decent game should not contain foul language, drugs, nudity or publicly shown affection. Slaughter is mandatory for creatures of another mostly non-humanoid race, but incest like every other sexual deviance in any form should be banned for the sake of the players. Since computer players do not get enough real life, the shock of adaption to real Suburbia after being introduced to such shocking material could kill them.


...or their pets!

[Cybersquirt]

Well, I'm quite speechless.. ... ... ..see?    That can't be what prompted this, can it?

If it is: Evil, I guess, is the operative word - undoubtedly as it relates to human relations.  Consenting adults, I guess, would be the over-looked one.

Anyway, to be general, I happen to like the Imoen-romance mod.  Incest?  Well, imo, that's debatable (but what isn't  ).  While romancing Imoen is the biggest reason for playing the mod, if you believe she's your sister and you don't want to see her as anything but, you can leave it at that.  So there is more to the mod than "incest"; subsequently, it would be nice to see it not merely dubbed the incest mod and relegated to the corner without further comment.  SO, in this particular case, I'd have to agree that there should be more of a reason for trashing it other than calling it incestuous and throwing it in that corner.

Jester - I don't even wanna begin thinking about what a few, select folks would term deviant; nor do I want to think about what they do to their pets.     

[Kish]

So there is more to the mod than "incest"; subsequently, it would be nice to see it not merely dubbed the incest mod and relegated to the corner without further comment.

The mod's name is the Imoen Romance mod.  This would appear, to me, to indicate that whatever more there may be to it is secondary to romancing your sister.  Kelsey is not the Salvanas Acknowledges Imoen mod, and the Imoen Romance mod is not the You Turn Chaotic Neutral If You Act Crazy With The Pirate Lord mod.  Someone who objects to the Kelsey mod doesn't need a reason that doesn't relate to the sorcerer to object, and someone who objects to the Imoen Romance mod doesn't need a reason that doesn't relate to the romance.  The point of the Kelsey mod is Kelsey; the point of the Imoen Romance mod (unless it's misnamed) is the incestuous romance.

[SimDing0™]

Let's take the Nalia Romance.

People are quite entitled to put forward "it allows you to do something you couldn't do in the game before" as a reason for disliking it. That doesn't make it a good reason.

So the issue seems to remain: why shouldn't a game allow an incestuous relationship? Whether or not you object to it is in itself irrelevant... I'm curious as to why.

[Domi]

So the issue seems to remain: why shouldn't a game allow an incestuous relationship? Whether or not you object to it is in itself irrelevant... I'm curious as to why.

Am guessing that it pertains to the 19th century argument if the Art should serve Education and Promoting Good or be art... the answer I belive was it can promote Public Good, but it can be art as well. We had seen mods or in-game events which can be classified as explicit sexual content, homosexual love, premarital sex, interracial sex, casual sex, fighting to death over the object of sexual desires - ie the mods that stepped over every thing that someone might object to on the moral grounds. Why inscest should be different?

[Caswallon]

Just out of curiosity - what exactly does the English word "romance" imply?

[Lord Kain]

I give you Imoens BG1 Bio.

"when asked about her past. IMOEN slaps your shouolder playfully. She says you of all people should know. seeing as how you grew up together. Indeed. Some of your fondest memories are of meeting this sprightly young lass. She apparently came to candlekeep much as you did, though 10 years later in life, and she spent much more time with the gruff Winthrop then Gorion. "Puffguts" she would call him. much to the old innkeep's dismay.
She seems the eternal child. and is quite content to play the part of little sister. though you are both of comparative ages. You can tell by her heartly smile that she will alwaYS be willing to travel with you. no matter what path you take."

She was still another of Gorions wards however she spent more time with Winthrop. Notice how they are the only two kids raised in the keep? I think bioware was planing on the hole Imoen really IS your sister thing. As Jon said "You must have suspected" Go back and play BG1 again.

Oh here's some more stuff some ToB content.
Viconia : "I am curious over something, Imoen.  Your sibling saved you from imprisonment and restored your soul.  Yet for all this you have never shown proper gratitude.  Why is that?"

Imoen: "Proper gratitude?  I'd hate to think what your idea of proper gratitude would be, Viconia."

Viconia: "You owe <CHARNAME> your entire being.  You should, at the very least, act as <PRO_HISHER> personal slave.  Cater to <PRO_HISHER> every whim."

Imoen: "<CHARNAME> is my half-<PRO_BROTHERSISTER>, you know!  I owe <PRO_HIMHER> my life, but let's not take it that far!"

Viconia: "Your common parent is a god.  This hardly counts towards any sort of common genetic bond, and even less of a reason to shirk what you owe <CHARNAME>."

Imoen: "<CHARNAME> and I grew up together.  I love <PRO_HIMHER> just as I loved Gorion.  <CHARNAME> may feel differently, I don't know... but it doesn't matter."

Then it goes off a few more dialogs. You can only see this if your romancing Viconia. at first i thought it was form the banter pack but the first dialogs are voice acted.

So there is no genetic bond, just some supernatural taint. So really Imoen is the PC's step sister. Not because of Bhaal but because they grew up under the care of Gorion.

[jester]

Incest in most societies I believe is frowned upon for genetic reasons (even though many rules based on religious notions have been around for very much longer, but I suspect it is something like a certain degree of ' common sense' that made it unwanted early on). A notable exception is Egypt, but the Pharaos were not like gods. They were gods. So the basic rules for commoners did not apply I guess.

1. There is no genetic bond between Imoen and the protagonist. The incest argument in this department is irrelevant. This mod is not about incest.
2. You share the taint and she is the only other friendly Bhaalspawn, but I think I am going in circles here.

Is anybody in this thread actually arguing against the mod?