Author Topic: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros  (Read 5412 times)

Offline jcompton

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A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« on: May 20, 2004, 11:15:37 PM »
maidros     
Posted: Apr 22 2004, 03:32 PM


I noticed that killing the Shambling mounds gives no experience at all. I hope it is not intended to be that way (checked in Shadowkeeper as well and it says there is no experience for killing the Shambling mounds). I hope it will be corrected

On a side note, I noticed that Faldorn can cast her creeping doom at invisible targets as well - is it intentional or is it a bug? An answer would be appreciated. She is monstrously tough, but not unbeatable.
Regards,
Maidros

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weimer    
Posted: Apr 24 2004, 02:42 PM

   
No XP for shambling mounds? Hmm. What do people think they should be worth? They're pretty easy.

The power of the druid grove allows Faldorn to see through invisibility. I'm glad that she wasn't unbeatable.

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kopywrite    
Posted: Apr 26 2004, 05:48 AM

   
QUOTE (maidros @ Apr 22 2004, 11:32 PM)
She is monstrously tough, but not unbeatable.

How did you manage to beat her? Tried with Jaheira at levels 10/12 and got thrashed...

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Guest    
Posted: Apr 26 2004, 01:58 PM

   
QUOTE (kopywrite @ Apr 26 2004, 05:48 AM)
QUOTE (maidros @ Apr 22 2004, 11:32 PM)
She is monstrously tough, but not unbeatable.

How did you manage to beat her? Tried with Jaheira at levels 10/12 and got thrashed...

Had to use some cheese, I am afraid - like recharging the ring of the ram and disrupting her nature' beauty and creeping doom. Get a character to stand on the edge of the arena and give him/her all the stuff you want Jaheira to have in the battle. Then once the battle begins, have this character give all the stuff to Jaheira. Even so, you will have to prevent her from getting off her nature's beauty. Buff up Jaheira as much as you can - improved haste followed by free action, a strength potion and at least a couple of Ironskins are an absolute necessity.

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Guest    
Posted: Apr 26 2004, 02:26 PM

   
I'm of the mind, after trying this component, that Faldorn is now almost retardedly overpowered. After failing to defeat her with a measly level 10 Cernd (since Jaheira'd left for good and my PC is a kensai) a few dozen times, I lost my patience and beefed him up to level 20. I still lost every time. I eventually tired of the stupidity of the situation and CLUA'd 7 of your newly improved pit fiends. I sat just inside the arena with Protection from Evil and a Minor Globe of Invulnerability (pause, inventory screen, drink potion, swap slot with MGoI scroll, return to main screen, unpause -- when all else fails, having a fighter cast a Self targeted spell can be fun) to defend against fireballs. After a good 5 or 7 minutes (leaving the ring to rebuff occasionally), they wore her down to almost nothing. I used the Ring of the Ram and, somehow, managed to bypass her MR and deal a finishing blow.


So, when a lone druid, even a phenomenally powerful one, can cast spells while shapeshifted, has a permanent whatever-it-is (spell or projectile reflecting... thing), deals massive damage in melee, sees invisible creatures, and survives more than 5 minutes in a pit with some monstrously strong fiends (excellent work making those things fearsome, by the way -- I flee from any Gate-happy liches now like Death itself is hot on my heels, which it is), that druid seems just a wee bit too powerful.


So, I might be off my rocker, but Faldorn sure seems rather silly to me (even more so than liches summoning your party, but that's far more tolerable).

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kopywrite    
Posted: Apr 27 2004, 09:23 AM

   
Long gone are the days when imp. invis. would win that fight. Looks like Faldorn gets to keep the grove for a little bit longer.

Improved pit fiends are truly terrifying...great work Wes! Make clerics a tad more useful now that prot from evil is (even more) essential for low level groups. But should the lichs that appear with the 'toughest random spawns' come with a pit fiend in tow? As soon as I entred the 1st level of the shade dungeon or the undead lair in unseeing eye all hell broke loose as the pit fiend went to work on the lich's buddies. Lord knows how Gorje Hilldark survived..
Maybe a lich could cast 'Gate' as a last resort spell as the manual suggests after all else has failed.
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maidros    
Posted: Apr 27 2004, 10:18 AM

   
QUOTE (kopywrite @ Apr 27 2004, 05:23 PM)

Long gone are the days when imp. invis. would win that fight. Looks like Faldorn gets to keep the grove for a little bit longer.


I had a horrid time getting rid of Faldorn.

Spoiler:
















This was what I did - I had Jaheira at level 10/12. Had her drink a potion of cloud (storm) giant strength. Then cast improved haste and free action on Jaheira, had her summon a simmy through a Vhailor helm and cast a pro. from magic using the simmy on Faldorn. This neutralises all the spells of Faldorn - then attack Faldorn with all you have got - both the simmy and the original. Soon Faldorn will be dead.

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Guest    
Posted: Apr 27 2004, 10:55 PM

   
Yet another use of cheese to beat her. So, she's still either tremendously difficult or retardedly overpowered. Anyone beat her yet sans dairy products?

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kopywrite    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 02:16 AM

Hmm, going to go back with a much more buffed Jaheira. At least Faldorn doesn't have shatter magic. Or might try recruiting Cernd with the rebalanced shapeshifter stuff if that fails...

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weimer    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 12:46 PM

   
I am getting the impression from many sources that Imp Faldorn is, shall we say, a bit strong. However, I'd like to give this a bit more time -- almost invariably a tougher opponent is initially viewed as impossible before some common strategy comes to light. For example, a certain battle involving three revenge spiders was widely reviled as impossibly difficult when it was first introduced. :-)

Anyway, if Imp Faldorn's current difficulty is 10 and you are all suggesting that it be reduced to 5, I'll probably actually reduce it 8 and you'll end up toasting her anyway. I would like to reduce the difficulty so as to keep the fight fun. One possibility here involves reducing the power and rate of her melee attacks ... presumably your druid challenger would then have more time to defeat her with tricky spells and whatnot.

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Userunfriendly    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 02:58 PM


Guard Button Super Cheese
Now here is one that is truly fiendish.....certain npcs, like Keldorn and Mazzy, have this button on their screen that resembles a shield... have Keldorn or Mazzy equipped with a ranged weapon, like long bow, then buff up a fighter, like Minsc or Saravok, (who can also do this trick) and send him into a room full of monsters, and close the door behind them...click on the guard button of the support ranged fighter, then click on the meelee fighter sent into the room alone, the ranged fighter is now "guarding" the meelee fighter, but he/she cannot be reached thru the closed door...so the ranged fighter will now FIRE THRU THE WALLS in support of the meelee fighter he/she has been assigned to guard...any enemies that the guarded npc attacks will be shot by the ranged fighter if it is within range of the ranged fighter...
tips
this is almost tailor made for abuse, like when you get solafein, you can dimention door him into a room full of nastys and guard him with minsc. activate greater deathblow by minsc, and the slaughter is disgusting....long bows are the best weapon for this, since the long bow range is the best in the game....also, and now we just get really evil, you can guard summons like mordenkainen swords, skeleton warriors, invisible stalkers and such...use wizard eye or farsight to keep control of your summons, send them into a room full of mind flayers, have minsc activate greater deathblow, and add up the experience points....any summons capable of attacking is a valid guardable target. now specific examples....remember gorf the squisher who duels mazzy when you get to the copper coronet? when the duel happens, mazzy is stripped of all her good equipment, but use the guard button with minsc or keldorn, and gorf dies fast...this is also good for the druid grove duel, with faldorn....making the guarded npc, invulnerable to attack, using protection from magic weapons and mislead, just adds to the fun....and you knew i love cheating on duels of honor.




try this...

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Guest    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 03:26 PM


Eh, that's still cheese. News to me, and hilarious besides, but definitely still cheese.

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Zaephir-Moth    
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 07:35 AM


YES ! And another 'uber-cheese' method by our specialist !!
Thanks for your dedication to such noble goals, Userfriendly !!!


Cheers.

*****


Guest    
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 10:45 AM

Err... I don't quite get the pratctical applications of this particular cheese, outside duels... in all other situations, having a lone fighter (even buffed and with ranged support) face a bunch of enemies, rather then having the whole party help him, seems sort of pointless...

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Imrahil    
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 12:20 PM

Who says it has to be one of your characters? I imagine Mordenkainen's Sword (+ maybe Wizard Eye or Farsight) would work just as well.

- Imrahil

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Userunfriendly    
  Posted: Apr 30 2004, 01:33 PM

   
QUOTE (Imrahil @ Apr 30 2004, 08:20 PM)
Who says it has to be one of your characters?  I imagine Mordenkainen's Sword (+ maybe Wizard Eye or Farsight) would work just as well.

- Imrahil

yep...

also, what if it was sola, or a sorceror...with many, many protection from magic weapons memorized???

vulnerable party is in next room, minsc or keldy with longbow is with them...and invulnerable "deployable decoy" is ranging ahead, supported by minsc, invulnerable to damage and attacking with melf minute meteors...while minsc is pumping the enemy full of arrows of biting...

other ways to whack faldorn...possibly use a cursed scroll of weakness on her???

use potion swap to make jaheira spell immunity illusion?? (this makes her immune to blindness...) spell immunity conjuration will make her immune to creeping doom...

improved haste, chaotic commands, bless, chant...the usual buffs can be applied on her before the dialog triggers, and she starts the duel...and don't forget free action will protect her from stun...

lots of things you can do, with or without cheese to prepare for this...


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Offline jcompton

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Re: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2004, 11:18:36 PM »
For $25,000, here is your first subject... GO!


Guest     
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 04:59 PM

Eh... completely missed the part about summons being defendable as well...

This still won't work with improved illthids (I think you used illthids as one of the examples...?) who just teleport over to you... btw, anyone noticed that these guys are actually LESS effective against a straight summon-buff-charge party then the usual illthids...?

Oh, and I'm just wondering... Userfriendly... why do you keep recommending level 16+ cheese tactics for chapter 2-3 encounters?

This isn'tat noticeable here, but what really messed me up is "Using multiple mage casting sunfire" at the sewers party... which can be massacred via straight bashing and abuse of their AI tactics...

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Guest    
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 09:29 PM

   
Many of your suggestions involve potion swapping or handing your druid equipment when they're in the arena. Both of these are cheesy tactics since one is a blatant abuse of the engine and the other is "illegal" (they remove all your equipment for a reason).

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Userunfriendly    
  Posted: May 1 2004, 12:04 AM

   
QUOTE (Guest @ May 1 2004, 12:59 AM)
Eh... completely missed the part about summons being defendable as well...

This still won't work with improved illthids (I think you used illthids as one of the examples...?) who just teleport over to you... btw, anyone noticed that these guys are actually LESS effective against a straight summon-buff-charge party then the usual illthids...?

Oh, and I'm just wondering... Userfriendly... why do you keep recommending level 16+ cheese tactics for chapter 2-3 encounters?

This isn'tat noticeable here, but what really messed me up is "Using multiple mage casting sunfire" at the sewers party... which can be massacred via straight bashing and abuse of their AI tactics...

oh yeah, improved illithid are nasty...for them, i like using fireseeds/arrows of detonation and g deathblow...

i actually don't really write recommendations...i actually in the cheese guide try to come up with ways of doing encounters, and using spell triggered sunfires is really a tactic i designed to attack dragons...I happen to mention it on the guide for that particular encounter, and i think i was simply stating an example of a tactic you can use for that particular encounter...

tactically, i would actually use summon insects for that encounter...and actually in version 2, soon to be released, i list an evil naughty new trick...cast summon insects on a friendly, like valygar, and have him rush to the attack...the rest of the party is well out of sight range, so can't be hurt...the summoned insects will jump from valygar to all hostiles..

yep, its illegal to give jaheira or cernd equipment in the arena, but its actually quite simple to do...simply give all jaheira's or cernd's equipment to a npc, and station them near the duel pit, and as long as the npc is close enough, in the inventory screen you can transfer equipment to jaheira once she's in the pit...

yes, of course I'm cheesy and use blatant abuses of the game engine, and use illegal tactics...that's because I am VERY naughty...

just installed new tactics mod component...will try a 10th level cernd with faldorn...with of course every single cheesy tactic i know of, or invented...

****


Guest    
Posted: May 1 2004, 05:59 AM

No - I'm not saying cheese is bad... I don't think I ever let that Druid fight be won in an honoruable manner...

What I'm wondering about, is using stuff like simularcum/sunfire - high level stuff, for encounters that you'll run into in chapter 2-3... Seriously - Greater deathblow for illthids? If you complete every quest before going to the underdark, how many characters can you have in your party for even one of them to gain the level to get ToB abilities?

Anyways, about improved illthids... maybe I'm missing something, or mine aren't working the way they're supposed to be - ok, so they illiminate the "close the doors and cloudkill/summons" cheese (actually, sending in summons isn't cheesy, and I wish they would deal with the summons before the teleport over to me...) but if your party approach is a cheese free "Summon help, buff up, rush the bastards" tactic, the improved illthids are actually less effective:

They go invisible, wait a while, use some minor damage dealing attack, and then consider using mind blasts or dominations... when the party and the summons are already upon them, and hacking them up.

While the regular illthids, would respond to a party rush with a whole bunch of psionic blasts... and unless your entire party had chaotic commands or an equivalent on, it was a toss up wether the encounter would end with a save or a load...

As for teleporting over to the party, all to often, that can be used to lure the illthids out one at a time via summons - the entire party is waiting for them to DD in, hacking up the Umber Hulk (free exp) and then the illthid...

In other words, with regular illthids, 70-80% of the rooms (I clear them a room at a time) would be cleared with no damage or lives lost, and 20-30% would get 2-3 NPC's killed and a reload.

With improved illthids, 95% of all encounters end with moderate HP damage and no dead NPC's...

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Userunfriendly    
  Posted: May 1 2004, 08:14 AM


that would depend on the number of people in the party...

a party of four, or even 3 can easily have greater deathblow before the underdark...and its not just the underdark that has improved illithid, you know...

there's a lot in watchers keep...and most people will have g deathblow by the time they get to watcher's keep..

the cheese guide has never been a tactics guide, it never does list the optimal tactics and strategy...lots of tactics guides are around...my guide is actually an exploration of what's possible with cheese, what works, a guide into expoiting the game engine...its up to the reader to try out their own tactics, to make and test their own cheese...

so my suggestions are really examples...one path or possible method of doing an encounter...

oh yeah...I cheat a lot...

i mostly play the game to check out quest mods, and relationship mods, and I've been quite active in beta testing... and when i test components of a mod, i test them using a fairly heavily hacked party...

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Guest    
Posted: May 1 2004, 11:54 PM


QUOTE (weimer @ Apr 28 2004, 12:46 PM)
I am getting the impression from many sources that Imp Faldorn is, shall we say, a bit strong. However, I'd like to give this a bit more time -- almost invariably a tougher opponent is initially viewed as impossible before some common strategy comes to light.

Getting there...managed to survive her onslaught of spells (2X potions of magic resistance from Roger the fence) but after that I could not beat her without being handed equipment.

She also seems to throw something which looks like restoration but deals damage and bypasses my 100% MR...?

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kopywrite    
Posted: May 1 2004, 11:56 PM


^^^^^

Was me

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Guest    
Posted: May 2 2004, 01:01 AM

   
It's been a few days since I last dealt with her, so my memory is a bit hazy, but doesn't Improved Faldorn has a permanent, undispellable Regeneration effect? That, more than anything else, is probably what transforms her from "very difficult" to "stupid."

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kopywrite    
Posted: May 2 2004, 01:52 AM

   
I don't recall the Revenge Spiders or even earlier versions of improved mindflayers being so unbeatable without cheese... or even the early immproved Adalon who'd retreat and heal several times (ahh, nostalgia!). Tough yes, but several reloads (cheese in itself?) would usually result in victory...

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maidros    
Posted: May 3 2004, 11:03 AM

   
Okay finally did the battle without cheese. I was partially guided to the solution by Kopywrite's technique.

Spoiler:

















This is what I did - I had my PC - kensai dualled to druid at 12 with grand mastery in quarterstaffs and I was at 12/13 level. I had my PC drink a potion of cloud giant strength, a potion of invulnerability, 2 potions of magic protection effectively raising the magic resistance to 100, a potion of magic shielding and had improved haste cast on him by Aerie. Then I had spells of chant, defensive harmony, and bless on the PC before allowing him to take on Faldorn. Grabbed the staff immediately and pounded her with everything my PC had. Even so I had to reload three times before, I hit the right strategy in the fight - as when to recast my PC's ironskins twice during the fight. Once I disrupted her heal spell, the rest was easy. Before she could recover to recast her ironskins, she was dead. This is a monstrously tough battle and I think there are a few things that are extremely unfair.

1) The dread wolves land right on the staff so you have to lead them away from the staff before you can get it.
suggested change - the staff should begin in the challenger's inventory - come on, Faldorn did not have to run for the staff even during the Bio version - she started with the staff in her hand.

2) She can be casting a spell and still attacks - even Demogorgon cannot do this. This is blatantly unfair. She should either cast a spell or attack - she should not be able to to both simultaneously.

3) Her number of attacks is far too high - 4 per round. A dual wielding fighter class PC at the end of ToB does not have that many attacks.
suggested change - reduce the number of attacks to 3 or 2.5
All in all, it is a very challenging fight - thanks to Wes Weimer for creating it.
Regards,
Maidros

This post has been edited by maidros on May 3 2004, 01:10 PM

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Guest    
Posted: May 4 2004, 08:25 AM

   
Maidros duel-wielding haves 4, two handed guy has 3 attacks.

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maidros    
Posted: May 4 2004, 08:37 AM


QUOTE (Guest @ May 4 2004, 04:25 PM)
Maidros duel-wielding haves 4, two handed guy has 3 attacks.

Only with some weapons. With some weapons, the number of attacks is 3.5 (try dual wielding the Answerer or some such weapon)

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Guest    
Posted: May 4 2004, 09:52 PM

   
This all depends, in part, on whether or not you have a mod installed that includes the "True Grandmastery" fix. If you don't, a single-weapon warrior gets at most ~2.5 attacks per round. A dual-wielding warrior would thus get ~3.5 attacks per round. With the fix installed, the single-weapon warrior should get ~4.5 attacks per round while the two-weapon fighter gets ~5 attacks per round.

I say approximately ( "~" ) because my memory is a wee bit hazy. My point is that there's a difference based on what mods you have installed (as always).

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Userunfriendly    
  Posted: May 7 2004, 10:33 PM


QUOTE (Zaephir-Moth @ Apr 30 2004, 03:35 PM)
YES ! And another 'uber-cheese' method by our specialist !!   
Thanks for your dedication to such noble goals, Userfriendly !!!


Cheers.

I just killed faldorn using CERND...

wot....

and boy, is wes naughty and tricky...

first, most of the shadowdruids are either above level 12 or deathwarded, so my hacked characters with g deathblow and fireseeds got laughed at...since my pc doesn't like being laughed at by annoying nature boys, out came celestial fury +5...laugh now, treehuggers...hee hee...

this is perfectly acceptable, since druids do get deathward spell, so it makes sense for them to have it...

faldorn is evil...evil...evil...

minsc guarded cernd and every time he hit faldorn with a bolt of biting, he took major damage...i guess the druid grove doesn't like cheating cheesers...

so i took a step back, and reconsidered my options...

he was just high enough level to get g werewolf paws, thank you ease of use mod, and summon g bear weres...

so i loaded up cernd with righteous magic, had vico cast champion strength on him, (his thaco is worse than imoen's... ) improve hasted him, and more iron skins...

jaheira stood by with gnasher club and the g werewolf paws...just outside circle, so she can pass important equiment to cernd once he's in the circle..

duel commenced...cernd summoned werebears, and changed to werewolf form..forget about the blinding, or the creeping doom, or any stuff faldorn throws at you...your first job is to summon g werebears, and turn into a werewolf...

several times cernd was hurt badly, even with the obscene regeneration of g werewolf..rod of resurrection cast on him instantly healed him...it took a while, but i wore faldorn down...in fact when she cast firestorm, it actually helped me, since vico kept using the rod on either bearweres, if they looked hurt, or on cernd...

after a while, cernd prevailed...so i am off to athkatla, to let him get his baby, and kick him out of party...his dialog is even more annoying than i remembered...



This post has been edited by Userunfriendly on May 7 2004, 10:35 PM
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Re: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2004, 10:21:31 AM »
Userunfriendly, you say you beat Improved Faldorn with Cernd. His HP got low on several occasions and it seemed hard. However, shouldn't Cernd be able to defeat Imp. Faldorn with no usage of cheese at all? I read that in that fight he'll be wearing a MINHP-item like Imoen's Belt, thus he can't die.

That's not what I wanted to report, I was just wondering if Tactics altered the script so he wouldn't get the MINHP-item.

Now, I don't know if I should make a new thread but I thought it belonged better here.
When I try to fight Improved Faldorn with my PC druid, the screen fades (as it should) and then the game crashes to the desktop. The game isn't closed yet, but it simply won't respond. I have to shut it down manually.
I tried clearing the temp, tempsave and cache folders to see if that might help. It didn't.
I uninstalled the Improved Druid Grove component and tried again. This time I got the fight. I reinstalled the component only to find the game crashing again.

I'll give a list of current mods installed:
Installed:
-Official SoA Patch
-Baldurdash bugfixes for SoA (V3.61)
-Baldurdash game text update (V1.3)

Mods:
-Unfinished Business
-Banter Packs
-Ease-Of-Use
-Revised Hell Trials
-Tactics Components
-Turnip Golem Encounter (already uninstalled this "mod")
-Oversight

Another small thing I found earlier this week (this probably doesn't belong here, but hey):
As SixOfSpades reported in his "Review of the Tactics MOD" the De'Arnise Keep gives me the same crash as the Faldorn-fight, when I try to move upward from the bottom of the map (take a look at SixOfSpades's map, it'll become clear).
I got past this by using the CLUAConsole. At that time I was coming from the City Gate. I used the console to move me there (as I didn't know of the problem at that time and thought I could solve it this way) which resulted in my party being in the top left corner. We then revealed the map (clockwise) and didn't encounter the crash anymore.

Offline Dudakawawa

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Re: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2004, 08:38:56 PM »
maidros     
Posted: Apr 22 2004, 03:32 PM


I noticed that killing the Shambling mounds gives no experience at all. I hope it is not intended to be that way (checked in Shadowkeeper as well and it says there is no experience for killing the Shambling mounds). I hope it will be corrected

On a side note, I noticed that Faldorn can cast her creeping doom at invisible targets as well - is it intentional or is it a bug? An answer would be appreciated. She is monstrously tough, but not unbeatable.
Regards,
Maidros

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weimer    
Posted: Apr 24 2004, 02:42 PM

   
No XP for shambling mounds? Hmm. What do people think they should be worth? They're pretty easy.

The power of the druid grove allows Faldorn to see through invisibility. I'm glad that she wasn't unbeatable.

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kopywrite    
Posted: Apr 26 2004, 05:48 AM

   
QUOTE (maidros @ Apr 22 2004, 11:32 PM)
She is monstrously tough, but not unbeatable.

How did you manage to beat her? Tried with Jaheira at levels 10/12 and got thrashed...

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Guest    
Posted: Apr 26 2004, 01:58 PM

   
QUOTE (kopywrite @ Apr 26 2004, 05:48 AM)
QUOTE (maidros @ Apr 22 2004, 11:32 PM)
She is monstrously tough, but not unbeatable.

How did you manage to beat her? Tried with Jaheira at levels 10/12 and got thrashed...

Had to use some cheese, I am afraid - like recharging the ring of the ram and disrupting her nature' beauty and creeping doom. Get a character to stand on the edge of the arena and give him/her all the stuff you want Jaheira to have in the battle. Then once the battle begins, have this character give all the stuff to Jaheira. Even so, you will have to prevent her from getting off her nature's beauty. Buff up Jaheira as much as you can - improved haste followed by free action, a strength potion and at least a couple of Ironskins are an absolute necessity.

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Guest    
Posted: Apr 26 2004, 02:26 PM

   
I'm of the mind, after trying this component, that Faldorn is now almost retardedly overpowered. After failing to defeat her with a measly level 10 Cernd (since Jaheira'd left for good and my PC is a kensai) a few dozen times, I lost my patience and beefed him up to level 20. I still lost every time. I eventually tired of the stupidity of the situation and CLUA'd 7 of your newly improved pit fiends. I sat just inside the arena with Protection from Evil and a Minor Globe of Invulnerability (pause, inventory screen, drink potion, swap slot with MGoI scroll, return to main screen, unpause -- when all else fails, having a fighter cast a Self targeted spell can be fun) to defend against fireballs. After a good 5 or 7 minutes (leaving the ring to rebuff occasionally), they wore her down to almost nothing. I used the Ring of the Ram and, somehow, managed to bypass her MR and deal a finishing blow.


So, when a lone druid, even a phenomenally powerful one, can cast spells while shapeshifted, has a permanent whatever-it-is (spell or projectile reflecting... thing), deals massive damage in melee, sees invisible creatures, and survives more than 5 minutes in a pit with some monstrously strong fiends (excellent work making those things fearsome, by the way -- I flee from any Gate-happy liches now like Death itself is hot on my heels, which it is), that druid seems just a wee bit too powerful.


So, I might be off my rocker, but Faldorn sure seems rather silly to me (even more so than liches summoning your party, but that's far more tolerable).

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kopywrite    
Posted: Apr 27 2004, 09:23 AM

   
Long gone are the days when imp. invis. would win that fight. Looks like Faldorn gets to keep the grove for a little bit longer.

Improved pit fiends are truly terrifying...great work Wes! Make clerics a tad more useful now that prot from evil is (even more) essential for low level groups. But should the lichs that appear with the 'toughest random spawns' come with a pit fiend in tow? As soon as I entred the 1st level of the shade dungeon or the undead lair in unseeing eye all hell broke loose as the pit fiend went to work on the lich's buddies. Lord knows how Gorje Hilldark survived..
Maybe a lich could cast 'Gate' as a last resort spell as the manual suggests after all else has failed.
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maidros    
Posted: Apr 27 2004, 10:18 AM

   
QUOTE (kopywrite @ Apr 27 2004, 05:23 PM)

Long gone are the days when imp. invis. would win that fight. Looks like Faldorn gets to keep the grove for a little bit longer.


I had a horrid time getting rid of Faldorn.

Spoiler:
















This was what I did - I had Jaheira at level 10/12. Had her drink a potion of cloud (storm) giant strength. Then cast improved haste and free action on Jaheira, had her summon a simmy through a Vhailor helm and cast a pro. from magic using the simmy on Faldorn. This neutralises all the spells of Faldorn - then attack Faldorn with all you have got - both the simmy and the original. Soon Faldorn will be dead.

*****

Guest    
Posted: Apr 27 2004, 10:55 PM

   
Yet another use of cheese to beat her. So, she's still either tremendously difficult or retardedly overpowered. Anyone beat her yet sans dairy products?

*****
   
kopywrite    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 02:16 AM

Hmm, going to go back with a much more buffed Jaheira. At least Faldorn doesn't have shatter magic. Or might try recruiting Cernd with the rebalanced shapeshifter stuff if that fails...

*****

weimer    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 12:46 PM

   
I am getting the impression from many sources that Imp Faldorn is, shall we say, a bit strong. However, I'd like to give this a bit more time -- almost invariably a tougher opponent is initially viewed as impossible before some common strategy comes to light. For example, a certain battle involving three revenge spiders was widely reviled as impossibly difficult when it was first introduced. :-)

Anyway, if Imp Faldorn's current difficulty is 10 and you are all suggesting that it be reduced to 5, I'll probably actually reduce it 8 and you'll end up toasting her anyway. I would like to reduce the difficulty so as to keep the fight fun. One possibility here involves reducing the power and rate of her melee attacks ... presumably your druid challenger would then have more time to defeat her with tricky spells and whatnot.

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Userunfriendly    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 02:58 PM


Guard Button Super Cheese
Now here is one that is truly fiendish.....certain npcs, like Keldorn and Mazzy, have this button on their screen that resembles a shield... have Keldorn or Mazzy equipped with a ranged weapon, like long bow, then buff up a fighter, like Minsc or Saravok, (who can also do this trick) and send him into a room full of monsters, and close the door behind them...click on the guard button of the support ranged fighter, then click on the meelee fighter sent into the room alone, the ranged fighter is now "guarding" the meelee fighter, but he/she cannot be reached thru the closed door...so the ranged fighter will now FIRE THRU THE WALLS in support of the meelee fighter he/she has been assigned to guard...any enemies that the guarded npc attacks will be shot by the ranged fighter if it is within range of the ranged fighter...
tips
this is almost tailor made for abuse, like when you get solafein, you can dimention door him into a room full of nastys and guard him with minsc. activate greater deathblow by minsc, and the slaughter is disgusting....long bows are the best weapon for this, since the long bow range is the best in the game....also, and now we just get really evil, you can guard summons like mordenkainen swords, skeleton warriors, invisible stalkers and such...use wizard eye or farsight to keep control of your summons, send them into a room full of mind flayers, have minsc activate greater deathblow, and add up the experience points....any summons capable of attacking is a valid guardable target. now specific examples....remember gorf the squisher who duels mazzy when you get to the copper coronet? when the duel happens, mazzy is stripped of all her good equipment, but use the guard button with minsc or keldorn, and gorf dies fast...this is also good for the druid grove duel, with faldorn....making the guarded npc, invulnerable to attack, using protection from magic weapons and mislead, just adds to the fun....and you knew i love cheating on duels of honor.




try this...

*****


Guest    
Posted: Apr 28 2004, 03:26 PM


Eh, that's still cheese. News to me, and hilarious besides, but definitely still cheese.

****

Zaephir-Moth    
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 07:35 AM


YES ! And another 'uber-cheese' method by our specialist !!
Thanks for your dedication to such noble goals, Userfriendly !!!


Cheers.

*****


Guest    
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 10:45 AM

Err... I don't quite get the pratctical applications of this particular cheese, outside duels... in all other situations, having a lone fighter (even buffed and with ranged support) face a bunch of enemies, rather then having the whole party help him, seems sort of pointless...

*****


Imrahil    
Posted: Apr 30 2004, 12:20 PM

Who says it has to be one of your characters? I imagine Mordenkainen's Sword (+ maybe Wizard Eye or Farsight) would work just as well.

- Imrahil

*****
   
Userunfriendly    
  Posted: Apr 30 2004, 01:33 PM

   
QUOTE (Imrahil @ Apr 30 2004, 08:20 PM)
Who says it has to be one of your characters?  I imagine Mordenkainen's Sword (+ maybe Wizard Eye or Farsight) would work just as well.

- Imrahil

yep...

also, what if it was sola, or a sorceror...with many, many protection from magic weapons memorized???

vulnerable party is in next room, minsc or keldy with longbow is with them...and invulnerable "deployable decoy" is ranging ahead, supported by minsc, invulnerable to damage and attacking with melf minute meteors...while minsc is pumping the enemy full of arrows of biting...

other ways to whack faldorn...possibly use a cursed scroll of weakness on her???

use potion swap to make jaheira spell immunity illusion?? (this makes her immune to blindness...) spell immunity conjuration will make her immune to creeping doom...

improved haste, chaotic commands, bless, chant...the usual buffs can be applied on her before the dialog triggers, and she starts the duel...and don't forget free action will protect her from stun...

lots of things you can do, with or without cheese to prepare for this...



I cheesed Feldorn casting teleport field with my 12/13/15 fighter/mage/ thief. It threw her out of the pit to my party.
This was after several reloads. I think it must be possible to beat Feldorn one to one with your MC, and  I mean without cheese...
With the "use all " ability from the thief it is possible to have all the scrolls you can get at your service.
Potions might work as well.
However, Trademeed is not anymore for the beginning of the game, but for the later stages to my opinion.
Trademeed is a good place to gather equipement and rep. points. The rep points are important  to get the Harper pin with Jaheira. With my evil party I started out with 8 rep. points and managed to raise it to 15 without going to the donation place.I bought my last one to keep things flowing.This was all before completing the Druid Grove, where I was stranded at Feldorn in the early going. I took her with only Kangaxx, Twisted Ruin and Bohdi to go.



Mr.WaeseL

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Re: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2004, 06:24:56 AM »
I think the shambling mounds should be worth 2k or something...

Offline SixOfSpades

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Re: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2004, 02:45:16 AM »
Ironworks forums has a thread similar to this (gee, is anyone surprised?), which I shall summarize here:



Well, I finally beat the bitch.

The party had taken out everything except Improved Bodhi, and Jaheira was indeed Levels 16/14. Buffs included: Ironskins, Oil of Speed, Improved Haste, Potion of Storm Giant Strength, Potion of Agility, Potion of Fortitude, Potion of Heroism, Potion of Invulnerability, Potion of Absorbtion, Potion of Magic Shielding (or Blocking, or Protection, one of those), Magic Resistance (for a total of 90% MR), Death Ward, Armor of Faith, Chaotic Commands, Free Action, Resist Fear, Protection from Fire, Resist Fire/Cold, Regeneration, Improved Invisibility, and Hardiness. A Cure Disease was memorized to dispel the Blindness.

Once in the pit, Jaheira immediately cast Creeping Doom on herself, and was amazed to see that it actually got through Faldorn's Magic Resistance for once. But that happy thought quickly faded when I looked around the floor of the pit and saw that there was nothing to fight with--no Staves on the ground. Yes, I'm sure. Rightfully perturbed, I CLUA'd one in ("staf01") and passed it to Jaheira--who used it and got the dreaded Weapon Ineffective. Well, I certainly wasn't going to put up with that shit, so I had Anomen toss Pitchwife over the wall. As a result, Faldorn was finished long before she started casting Heal--damage over time bows to no spellcaster. Jaheira cast no spells other than her Creeping Doom during the fight, and still had some Ironskins left from the night before.

Then I did it again, with the same buffs, but with Jaheira using her Earth Elemental Transformation instead of Pitchwife. Faldorn fared better in this fight, eating through the Stoneskins and getting Jaheira down to about 50% health (even with Regeneration active) before she died.

Overpowered? You bet your ass.


My objections:

1) Improved Faldorn forces the player to include Cernd and/or Jaheira as a permanent member of the party, or to be a Druid on their own account, which is an unreasonable requirement for a major series of quests that were previously available to any party.

2) Improved Faldorn forces the player to wait until the very final stages of SoA (after Improved Bodhi, maybe even after Watchers' Keep) before they can even begin to stand a chance against her, which is absolutely ludicrous.

3) Improved Faldorn cheats in so many ways that I can't even number them. Among the most offensive ways are the fact that she casts spells while shapeshifted, the fact that she casts Nature's Beauty (and yet is immune to it herself), the fact that she has buffs and immunities not available to Druids of any level, and the fact that when she enters combat, all of her buffs are cast for her for free (whether she had them memorized or not) and in 0 time.



I have previously said that Weimer writes code well, but doesn't know jack about game balance. I think his own words of "I am getting the impression from many sources that Imp Faldorn is, shall we say, a bit strong," reveal just how out-of-touch he is. The concept that Improved Faldorn might be a bit strong should have occurred to him long, long before release. What, did he give her a permanent Mantle, then sit back and say, "Yeah, that looks about right?" Perhaps when he was playtesting the difficulty of Improved Faldorn prior to release, he was doing so with an AntiPaladin->Mage under All-Strongholds. And pardon my bluntness, but I've got better things to do than order my game around Weimer's twisted notions of what Druids should be.

If Faldorn was actually intelligent, meaning she depended on a smart AI to see what spells I was using and the best means to counter them, I would respect her. But the only reaction I can have to a creature that simply relies on cheesy immunities far beyond those available to the player (in what's supposed to be a fair fight) is to slowly ooze contempt.



It's always been my understanding that tapping into the power of the Grove makes Faldorn unkillable--OUTSIDE the Challenge Ritual. Once the challenge has been invoked, the Earth Mother is unsure of which Druid to grant her power to, and therefore withholds it, meaning Faldorn is pretty much just another Level 15 Druid with some slight (SLIGHT!) advantages, such as having a natural 19 Strength. She did, after all, apparently defeat whoever was Grand Druid here previously. I have no objection to Faldorn being made more challenging than her original incarnation; I obviously have plently of good objections to make to her Weimerized version.



Suggested Changes: The first order of business is to make the Improved Druid Grove and Improved Faldorn into separate components of Tactics.

2000 EXP for the Shambling Mounds seems about right, but I'd also like to add in a behavior quirk where they don't turn Hostile to the party unless they see a non-Druid. I'd have to check to see what the other Shambling Mounds in the game are worth.

What I'd Like To See In Improved Faldorn:
  • Forget all this "entire party pre-buffs the party Druid" crap, let's just have a straight fight of Druid vs. Druid. That means purple-circling (as in "The Transformation and the Dream" sequence or Round 2 of Improved Irenicus) the rest of the party, as well as any Summons, during the fight.
  • Step 2 of the same vein involves removing all pre-buffs from the party Druid, to disallow things like Storm Giant Strength and Improved Haste. As soon as the challenge is issued, the party gets purple-circled, then the challenger gets hit with Spellstrike, Breach, and an Inquisitor's Dispel.
  • Both combatants are then given free castings of Barkskin, Ironskins, Bless, Armor of Faith, Resist Fire/Cold, Strength of One, Magic Resistance, Death Ward, and Defensive Harmony (nothing above Level 5), each of which is cast at their own level--so a Level 13 Druid would have weaker castings of Ironskins, Magic Resistance, Armor of Faith, etc., than Faldorn would, and would also be likely to be stripped naked if Faldorn were to cast Dispel Magic. Faldorn also has "Summon Dread Wolves" cast for her at the start of combat.
  • Faldorn is given a Staff of Thunder and Lightning, a normal Sling, and 80 normal Bullets. The challenger is given a Staff and Sling (with Bullets) as Quick Weapons, and a Scimitar, Spear, Dagger, Club, and 80 Darts in Inventory. All of the challenger's weapons are Normal.
  • In BG1, Faldorn's stats are 12/15/11/10/16/15, so let's say that she consumed all of the famous Tomes, and her BG2 stats are now 13/16/12/11/19/16. In addition, her THAC0, AC, and Saving Throws are all 2 points better than would be legal, she has 12 extra hitpoints, and an ApR of 2 in her Human form.
  • Faldorn has no other free buffs or resistances, apart from being immune to Nature's Beauty--which she does NOT cast.
  • Faldorn may not cast spells while Shapeshifted.
  • In her current version, Improved Faldorn picked Summon Fallen Deva as her HLA, and she has it memorized. I suggest either Globe of Blades, Aura of Flaming Death, or Storm of Vengeance instead.
Weimer must personally beat the Rebalanced Faldorn with a Level 14 Druid (any kit except the Overbalanced Shapeshifter, and no Fighter component) before she can be considered truly fit for release.

Opinions?

Offline the bigg

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Re: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2004, 03:57:35 AM »
[spam] A slight offtopic, but in my Mazzy the Paladin , I've included a fight that I was never able of winning myself  :(  butat least it's really optional, since you need to do 7 times a prior fight and you still may talk into peace. And a pair of other touch are... well.. out of touch  ;)  Including an avenger casting spells while morphed to a Sprider[/spam]

The only thing tht really bothers me is her immunity to blindness. How $%&/&%£&%£$%£$"%()/%&$£$"£ did she achieve that? Of cuorse, also immunity to Creeping Doom was annoying, but at least here it has a reason to be (Magic Resistance). Even immunity to Invisibility has really no real meaning (and was the main reason why I couldn't beat her with my beloved uber-backstabber F/T & Ease-of-Use)
Casting while shapeshifted is because Wes *supposes* that everybody uses Shapeshifting Rebalance, and anyway isn't really such a big fuss (try Mazzy the Paladin and attack Gyron for an example!). Forcing buffs has the usual meaning of "I apply the Seatbelt theory, so PCs are buffed and I will do so too".
About Summon Deva: it's just a leftover from when Wes created her as a HL druid, she doesn't cast it. Wes, if you remove the effect of "denotes High Level Ability: Summon Fallen Deva", it will run on SOA-only machines.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 04:00:06 AM by the bigg »
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Re: A bug in v18, Tougher Druid Stronghold bug -- maidros
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2005, 12:00:59 AM »
(Just a side note)
In the Sola mod+tactics it is not very hard to beat Faldorn. I did it with Jaheira and Solaufein. Sola uses DD to get into the pit.
I don`t consider this to be cheese, because he uses his special abillity and having that makes it legal to use it. Even now it is not a walk in the park.
Jaheira gets hit by CD, blinded and fire stormed, but she gets potions from Sola.
Solau makes simulacrum, Jaheira casts monsters.
The Solau`s give hell with the moonray spells.
After this Detect Illusion and CF+3 and Belm will bring Faldorn down for 50000 xp.
Don`t use Kuroi-San`s Katana! It will work against you, because the acid backlash will boomerang to you...
My level at that moment was:
Solaufein F13/M13
Jaheira F9/D12 (low, because I kicked her out after Castle Irinicus and picked her up in chp.6 to do the Harpers Quest and the Grove. She is not needed in my party, because my PC is a Cleric/Ranger, Half-Elf. The C/R combines the ranger and the cleric, but also the druid in one  character. I can cast all the druid spells with her(!), like insect plague, creeping doom and nature`s beauty. In this way I didn`t had to take Minsk with me and so I took just Dalis , Keldorn and Yoshimo to the Asylum. After that I went with Imoen for nr5 Solaufein. O.c. Sarevok will be nr 6  :)).
By the way..., thank you Weimer for these fantastic mods! It is all a sublime piece of Art!

 

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