Author Topic: Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?  (Read 22199 times)

Tancred

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2004, 10:10:10 AM »
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I really hate your tendency for multiclassing npc's to keep their flavor, you don't need that. Nalia could be a pure mage with some rouge skill and the martial weapon bow feat and so you can evan remove some dual/multiclassing that 2e edition rules forced upon them. Mages can learn to open locks, at a price.

I really need to get my E-mail working again so I can register...
In Nalia's case, multiclassing her makes sense; there's a dialog in which she remembers that her family started tutoring her in magic to curtail her rogue activities. She was a thief (well, a noble who could pick locks) before she became a wizard... likewise, Anomen was a squire before he joined the ranks of clericdom.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2004, 10:28:12 AM by Tancred »

raptor

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2004, 01:11:18 PM »
Reading all this, i would say that she shoule not even be able to multiclass as paladin, but that probablly wont be posible. And "unlock" the paladin level if you solved a quest. But that will not be in IWG2, posiblly a mod later on. One thing that could be interesting however, would be to "auto pick" Class for the NPC's, as you arent really allowed to "change class" on any persons in Bg2 from before. (I belive Valygar is one of the very FEW that can be even dualclassed ?)

It feels alittle wrong that Yoshimo could be multiclassed as a wizard for example, and never thought any spells to, so he would be easier when you foght him later on ?

Grumpy Guy

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2004, 08:12:47 PM »
After lurking around this and other FW forums for a while now, I think maybe I'll offer up an opinion.

The problem we really have here is one of character.  Several Mazzy dialogues center around the fact that she cannot become a paladin.  THis makes sense, given the timeperiod of the story.  At the time, non-human FR deities did not take on paladins, and human deities didn't take on non-human paladins.  So, according to official FR history, she really couldn't be a paladin at the time - unless she was one hell of an exception.

IDW2, however, takes place at a later point in FR history when non-human deities took on paladins, and human deities took all comers.

My suggestion is that, for the IWG mod itself, leave her a fighter.  Weimer said that additional quests and major changes were not within the scope of IWG, and I think that's a good thing.

Now, an enterprising soul could, after IWG is completed, make a Mazzy is a paladin mod for IWG.  This mod would involve some hefty dialogue changes, but what mod doesn't?  Alternately, it could be a Mazzy Becomes A Paladin mod, with a special quest allowing her to become the first-ever paladin to Avoreen.  This mod would, by necessity, also have to include minor modifications to the Paladin class - creating a "Twinsword of Avoreen" option that would allow multiclassing with the Fighter class, thereby making the experience hit for multiclassing a minimal one.  I don't even know if adding new paladin variants is even an option in IWD2 - can you make mods like that?  I know so little about IWD2 modding...

But for IWG, she kinda needs to be a Fighter.  She has too much dialogue lamenting her inability to become a true paladin to do otherwise.  Ideally, it would be best if she were unable to be multiclassed as a Paladin, but that's probably not possible.

I, personally, would not multiclass her that way.  It renders a lot of her dialogue kind of silly.  As one person said "Ahh, if only I could be a real paladin..."  "But, Mazzy - you are a real paladin."  "Oh, yes.  My apologies, my friend.  I forgot."

domi

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2004, 08:22:17 PM »
Alternately, it could be a Mazzy Becomes A Paladin mod, with a special quest allowing her to become the first-ever paladin to Avoreen. This mod would, by necessity, also have to include minor modifications to the Paladin class - creating a "Twinsword of Avoreen

I like this idea especially as additional ToB content ^_^  

kirkjobsluder

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2004, 10:15:58 PM »
Well, I have some mixed thoughts about this.

On the one hand, there is nothing in the rules that says Halflings cannot be paladins.  An important much-overlooked concept within 2e is that anything is possible, if the player and the DM can negotiate how to make it believable, and not disrupt game balance.  (Other gaming systems are a bit more explicit about the rule #0 of roleplaying "never let the rules get in the way of a good story.")

On the other hand, my reading of Avoreen (doing some research on Halflings for the possible  Forrest Fentan mod) suggests that paladinhood might be a bit out of character for Avoreen who is a very defensive war god, as opposed to the rather evangelical view of fighting evil wherever it occurs.  I get the impression that Avoreen does not go looking for trouble, and I get the feeling that Mazzy sees Avoreen more like a Halfling Helm or Torm.  Every now and then I have to ask myself, in what ways is her quest to investigate the Umar Hills mystery compatible with Avoreen's call to be ready to defend halfling communities at any time?  Perhaps the reason she has not been favored by paladinhood by Avoreen, is because she has not earned it by devoting herself to the defense of Trademeet?

Mike

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2004, 10:53:28 AM »
As I stated before, Mazzys main problem is that "The most noble order of the radiant heart" doesn't allow non-humans as members. Anomen kan be an member even thou he isn't evan an paladin. Thus the order is NOT a paladin order but an order for lawful warriors. This includes but does not limits to paladin members. Mazzy is a victim of rasism--- :angry:  

Trouveur

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2004, 03:36:00 PM »
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THis makes sense, given the timeperiod of the story.  At the time, non-human FR deities did not take on paladins, and human deities didn't take on non-human paladins.  So, according to official FR history, she really couldn't be a paladin at the time - unless she was one hell of an exception.

IDW2, however, takes place at a later point in FR history when non-human deities took on paladins, and human deities took all comers.

 
Totally wrong. IWD2 takes place many years before Time of trouble, and BG2 takes place after Time of trouble.
The only thing that differs about the two game is the rules: in AD&D2 non human paladins don't exist, but in D&D3 they do.

Kish

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2004, 12:53:07 AM »
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As I stated before, Mazzys main problem is that "The most noble order of the radiant heart" doesn't allow non-humans as members.
You don't have to be a member of the Order to be a paladin.
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Anomen kan be an member even thou he isn't evan an paladin. Thus the order is NOT a paladin order but an order for lawful warriors.
Lawful Good.

Grumpy Guy

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2004, 12:10:52 PM »
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Totally wrong. IWD2 takes place many years before Time of trouble, and BG2 takes place after Time of trouble.
The only thing that differs about the two game is the rules: in AD&D2 non human paladins don't exist, but in D&D3 they do.
Crap.  I stand corrected.  I stand before you, sheepish in my error.  How the hell did I miss that?

You're right - the problem is one of game mechanics.  

The actual problem, though, is one of continuity.  Mazzy's character is centered around the fact that she can't be a Paladin.  It would be messed up to make her one - her dialogue would sound silly.

As I stated before - she should be a Fighter in IWG, since she was a fighter in BG2.  Any changes to her character would have to be addressed in later mods.  Weimer has stated, re-stated, and then stated again that changes (like making Mazzy a paladin and the associated dialogue changes) were not within the scope of IWG.

Therefore, she should be a Fighter for IWG because changes are not within the scope of the project.  So sayeth Weimer, and since he's THE MAN, I don't think we should argue.

I can tell you, however - making Mazzy a Paladin in a later mod would win the love of Mazzy fans everywhere (myself included).  I'd love to play a mod with a quest that ended in Mazzy attaining paladinhood - or being forever denied the mantle, depending on choices made.

Actually, someone could do a mod for BG2 rather than IWG to accomplish this; I know that with Shadowkeeper, I can make a Halfling Paladin, so I don't really see a problem doing it in BG2.

Of course, I would far prefer to do it in a completed IWG...

Mike

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2004, 08:54:27 AM »
I will patiently awate the completion of this mod, inpatienly actually but I will try. :)  I will add mods to it to fit my personal taste, no point in bugging you developers with that. I expect an explosion of mods for this when it is done. Apperently evan some of the dreaded hardcoded problems has been defeated. At least according to some posts on this board.  

kirkjobsluder

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2004, 12:18:03 PM »
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You're right - the problem is one of game mechanics. 

The actual problem, though, is one of continuity.  Mazzy's character is centered around the fact that she can't be a Paladin.  It would be messed up to make her one - her dialogue would sound silly.
Actually, game mechanics has very little to do with it anymore.  (Except for Black Isle.)  Folks were designing non-human paladin kits for 2nd edition.  Even in 1st edition, people playing D&D invoked rule 0:  "never let the rules get in the way of a good story or good gameplay."  How do you think we got the Swashbuckler and Blade kits?  You could play a Gnome paladin, if you were able to come up with a plausible background and ways for it to not overly disrupt game play.  ToB even has Gith anti-paladins.  

But as with my previous post.  My biggest objection to paladinhood for Mazzy is that in my mind it still seems like a very human thing.  Mazzy already has something of a kit with special powers from Avoreen.  What are the advantages to paladinhood over additional powers by Avoreen.  And perhaps more importantly, how is the evangelical nature of paladinhood compatible with Avoreen's very defensive description?

raptor

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2004, 11:52:02 AM »
From IWD2 whenever a character level upp, you get to choose from alist of all the classes, could this be "fixed" so that NPC's pick this for you ? aka, Imoen lets say level 3 Rouge and level 10 wizard, and levels upp, now normally you could let her choose any class on the list including barbarian, bard, cleric and so on ... It should be posible to make IWD2 "lock" this so we wont see a : Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Rouge, Monk, Sorcerer, Wizard with 1 level each, Minsc .... it would kinda of ruin the fun if ANY character could be multiclassed to anything, since that really wasent posible in BG2.

 

Kish

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2004, 02:07:13 PM »
Uh?

If you want to play a version of BG2 in which nothing is possible that wasn't possible in BG2, why do you want the conversion?

raptor

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2004, 09:12:19 AM »
Heh, true....

well i just find it a bit to strange that Edwin, that have been born and raised in thay, trained as a wizard hes entire life, and seems quite proud of it, could be multiclassed into a bard ... or even a cleric... i can imagine he would be pretty pissed off if you did that to him :) it just feels like you can alter them to much. oh well... its all about how you play really...

 

James

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2004, 12:27:25 AM »
You can only take 3 lasses, so you couldnt have 1 level in everyrthing, and only idiots would multi minsc to a wizard or edwin toa cleric. Most of the characters wont have ability scores high enough to take from classes other than there main. i.e to cast level 1 priest spells you need wisdom 11. Edwin doesnt have wisdoom eleven let alone a score high enough to get any good spells. Id say its the same with the others, if they do have scores high enouh to take certain classes, they still qouldnt be suited t it so they'd suck. Then you have the XP penalty until you even out levels, and you lose power in your main class! IT's poitnless. On top of that you dont have to take any new classes anyway, just becasue its an option, doesnt mean you have to take it. Just keep your edwin /minsc what you want him to be.

Trouveur

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2004, 08:16:28 AM »
It is NWN who limits multiclassing to three classes, in IWD2 we can take as many classes as we want to.

Jerr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2004, 06:00:38 PM »
:huh:

Hehe, anyway, about Mazzy investigating the Umar Hills instead of Defending (As per Arvoreen Edict?), well technically, if she thought of all of Faerun as her home and not just Trademeet, then wouldn't she be defending her home either way? Even though I'm loathe to use a Cliche, home is where the heart is.

As far as the whole 'can't be a paladin' aspect, that's not all that makes up Mazzy! She's still a fighter and striver for justice, remember? Remember, these characters aren't one-sided cardboard cut-outs.

Gherald

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2004, 03:45:57 PM »
Mazzy is a Paladin in function if not in name.  The closest class in IWG to the abilities she has in BG2 is the Paladin class.

So I think she should be given the paladin class in IWG.

If someone wants to add extra dialog that makes her a paladin in name (ie, she actually gets the title "Paladin of Avoreen", or whatever), then make a mod.

But as far as an unmodded install of IWG is concerned, let her have the Paladin class (function)  but still be called a fighter in the dialogs (name).

In other words, when you are playing an unmodded IWG, just be clear on the fact that though her class is "Paladin", she's not really a paladin as far as the roleplay is concerned.

OK?

raptor

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2004, 06:23:13 PM »
This is a typicall :

"what came first, the chicken or the egg ?"

well, it looks like direct port, so it looks like well be stuck with fighter, and free multiclass later on. oh well.

the bigg

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2004, 06:55:37 AM »
I think Mazzy should start as a warrior (not a paladin as I had mistakenly written before, thus the "edited" thingie), to provide for continuity; however
1) IF a conversion is being made to let people be more free, THUS they have to be allowed to do what they want, such as multiclassing her to a Pallie or a thief, if they want (Ok, the thief part is silly, but if you want to do that...)
2) the 20% penalty isn't a really big issue: it keeps the average level down, allowing you to get more XPs due to Difficulty rate
3) I had just begun working on a BG2 mod which gives her a quest to become a Paladin, and I had read through all of her banters; only 9 or so refer directly to her inability to be a Pallie (but there are also interjections, which I cannot directly count, not having NI but only WeiDU to read dialogues); I can't direct you to my forum, not having already opened one.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2004, 08:03:52 AM by the bigg »

Jerr Bear

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2004, 12:42:39 PM »
Well, I'm all for a quest to make Mazzy a Paladin. However, I thought of an alternative.

How about a Fighter Kit called "Swordthane of Arvoreen"? It'd have all of the Paladin Abilities Mazzy has, but wouldn't actually be a Paladin. It'd just give her Fighter Status a really nifty title ;C)

As for Mazzy being a thief, that's not so far-fetched.

Spoiler Ahead


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After all, she can supposedly pick pockets. In the Government District, Yoshimo picks the pocket of a noble you talk to. When that noble wonders where his ring is, if Mazzy is in the party, she says she found it on the ground.

1. It's safe to assume that she yoinked it from Yoshimo, considering the Nobleman doesn't scream and rant about thieves stealing his rings.

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I'd say if Mazzy did multi to a thief, make it realistic, block out some skills so she can't put points in them.

Kish

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2004, 01:39:18 PM »
That's not exactly evidence of Mazzy being able to pick pockets.  Yanking away from Yoshimo=/=picking from a pocket.

And there are no kits in Icewind Dale II.

Guest

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2004, 03:19:43 PM »
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That's not exactly evidence of Mazzy being able to pick pockets.  Yanking away from Yoshimo=/=picking from a pocket.

And there are no kits in Icewind Dale II.
Well, I mostly assumed that if she had just yanked it from Yoshimo right in front of the guy, then he would have seen that it was in Yoshimo's posession and would have noted he stole it, but he didn't. He was right in front of them after all.

Besides, picking pockets isn't necessarily a bad thing. For one, it comes in handy to return stolen goods.

And if you think about it, there are kits in Icewind Dale II. Is not the Paladin of Ilmater a kit?

Kish

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2004, 03:24:59 PM »
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Is not the Paladin of Ilmater a kit?
No.

In IWD2, you have to choose which deity you're a paladin or cleric of--or which monk order you belong to--while in BG2, these things are abstracted (if you're a paladin or kitless cleric, you still worship a particular deity).  That doesn't make a religion into a kit, though.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2004, 03:31:26 PM by Kish »

Jerr Bear

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2004, 08:51:36 PM »
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Is not the Paladin of Ilmater a kit?
No.

In IWD2, you have to choose which deity you're a paladin or cleric of--or which monk order you belong to--while in BG2, these things are abstracted (if you're a paladin or kitless cleric, you still worship a particular deity).  That doesn't make a religion into a kit, though.
I still don't see much of a difference though, other than the fact that in BGII you can't pick a God to worship when picking a Paladin.

 

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