Author Topic: Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?  (Read 22200 times)

Trouveur

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« on: April 23, 2003, 03:27:08 PM »
We all know that she is a Arvoreen's sword. And she acts like a paladin. In fact she even says something about that she is not a paladin only because D&D2 doesn't allow that. Now that BG2 uses D&D3, why should her rest a fighter? She even have some powers granted by her goddess in order to simulate paladin powers.

Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2003, 04:22:05 PM »
Because she says many times in dialogue she isn't allowed to be a Paladin. It's part of her character.

Though the rules do permit it now, I think she should stay as Fighter. Just assume there's some other reason she can't be a Paladin (maybe Arvoreen has some weird rules, or maybe there's some other reason)?
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Kiki

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2003, 05:26:46 PM »
In a banter with someone or another (Aerie?), Mazzy does say something like, "Now, if there were to be another version of halflings--a third edition, if you will--perhaps I could be a paladin." Maybe someone could do an Icewind Gate mod adding a quest that results in her conversion into a paladin.

Guest

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2003, 12:43:53 AM »
I think she should. I mean, with mutliclassing the player can make her one, anyway, so if they want her to be a fighter, just add fighter levels instead. or give her a few levels of both.

in the same train of thought, shouldn't minsc have some levels of barbarian?  i know dialogues in the game reinforce the fact that he's a ranger, but he could be half-half to get rage bonuses.

Samuel Coyote

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2003, 06:04:17 AM »
The whole charm with Mazzy is that she knows she cant be a paladin, but she still behaves like one. That makes her, in my book atleast, far more interesting than any regular goody-two-shoes. Starting her out as a paladin just makes her another mass-produced righteous crusader against blah blah blah. Although it would make for some interesting dialogue.. Mazzy: "I wish I was a paladin..." PC: "Uhhh.. you are a paladin." Mazzy: "No, Im afraid that's just not possible." PC: "But you're wielding a holy avenger and all!" Mazzy: "Im afraid as a halfling, I cant be a paladin. Maybe some day..." PC: "And I thought Minsc was bad."

As for in character reasons for Mazzy to be a fighter, not a paladin, here's a few:

Being a paladin requires more than good will. Its more than just being a really nice fellow with a sword, its about being a chosen warrior of your god. Because Avoreens church hasn't had any paladins(or they are so rare to be mostly unknown), there are no strictures to follow or trials to undergo in order to prove herself a paladin.

Lack of faith. While Mazzy seems quite devout to her godess, she doesn't have all that much faith in herself. If she's convinced that she cant be a paladin, she doesn't have the faith for it.

Avoreen doesn't support paladins. While she's a good goddess of war, she's also the halfling godess of war. Halflings are not a physically strong race, and so open combat is not something that should be encouraged. Avoreen might support rangers instead of paladins, leaving Mazzy pretty much out of luck.

The grand destiny. Mazzy will eventually become a paladin, but since she's the chosen one/the first halfling paladin/so darn cute/whatever, she must first learn humility and patience.  

Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2003, 06:31:43 AM »
Quote


in the same train of thought, shouldn't minsc have some levels of barbarian?  i know dialogues in the game reinforce the fact that he's a ranger, but he could be half-half to get rage bonuses.
He does in IWG2, he is a 2/2 ranger/barb at the start of the game.
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atym

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2003, 07:00:35 AM »
Personally I'd like her left as a fighter, leaving it up to the player to give her Pally levels as they see fit. If 'Paladin of Avoreen' was a kit option I'd probably feel differently, but it isn't, and the available gods feel like a bad fit. It's already a little distracting that only one of the god-botherers actually has the correct faith reflected in his class.

Not that I don't appreciate how cool she'd be smiting evil with Carsomyr - I made a Mazzy Pally when I played Icewind DALE 2, but her not being a Paladin is too intrinsic to her character. If the player decides to make her a Paladin, a Fighter/Paladin multiclass is a decent combo, much less problematic than say Aerie's Cleric/Mage in 3rd ed.  

atym

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2003, 07:31:57 AM »
Oh, and just another thought:

I have no idea if character's innate special abilities can be/will be implemented as they are in BG2, but if they can't how about giving Mazzy a special item - "Holy Symbol of Avoreen" or something similar, to hook her pseudo-Paladin abilities onto.  

Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2003, 08:05:52 AM »
Quote
much less problematic than say Aerie's Cleric/Mage in 3rd ed.
This is problematic?  :unsure:  
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Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2003, 08:06:25 AM »
Quote
Oh, and just another thought:

I have no idea if character's innate special abilities can be/will be implemented as they are in BG2, but if they can't how about giving Mazzy a special item - "Holy Symbol of Avoreen" or something similar, to hook her pseudo-Paladin abilities onto.
That seems like a good plan.
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atym

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2003, 10:48:25 AM »
Quote
Quote
much less problematic than say Aerie's Cleric/Mage in 3rd ed.
This is problematic?  :unsure:
Okay, I'm not 100% up on this, but say Aerie in plain BG2 has 2,250,000 exp, equal to a level 16 mage or a level 18 cleric. She's splitting that between two classes. 1,125,000 exp in each class gets her level 13 in mage and level 13 in cleric, if I've read the tables right.

In 3rd ed, a level 16 character has 16 character levels, and it's character levels that determine exp to next level, so she'd be a level 8 mage and a level 8 cleric. She hasn't even maxed her Magic Missile.

Also IIRC (may be getting confused with NWN) caster level helps overcome spell resistance. Aerie's not going to get through anything.

I'd expect Aerie fans to pick her up early and decide on a class for her to concentrate on - I'm certainly not advocating that she shouldn't be half cleric half mage when you pick her up. Just that multiclassed casters lose a lot when their other class also casts.

If I've read the tables wrongly I apologise, but I'm pretty sure a 3rd ed multiclassed caster/caster is a lot weaker than their 2nd ed counterparts.

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2003, 01:44:25 PM »
I get what you're saying, don't worry.....  :)  Thought you might've been talking about an engine problem or something!  :unsure:  :blink:  :rolleyes:

Yeah 50/50 multi casters do tend to be a bit weaker than their single class counterparts, though I still often take one. If I have one pure arcane caster and one pure divine, I like the backup of a multi too, even though that character is often less useful than the rest.  B)  
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Riklaunim

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2003, 03:53:27 AM »
In 3ed D&D she could be a paladin of Arvoreen or a “Halfling defender” (Prc). In BG2 she had special powers granted by hers deity. In IWG 2 she should be (and she is) a paladin (or paladin/fighter or paladin/ranger)

Guest

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2003, 10:33:49 AM »
The only problem with saying that her character revolves around the fact that she isn't a paladin is that we can MAKE her a paladin.  So in those dialogues when she's talking about not being able to be a paladin, we can say, "Oh, is that what you want?" and level her up as paladin.  This is basically the same as initially giving her paladin levels.  The issue will have to be addressed in any case.  Maybe she can only level in paladin after a special quest, or else can't become a paladin?

Kismet

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2003, 11:12:19 AM »
Quote
The only problem with saying that her character revolves around the fact that she isn't a paladin is that we can MAKE her a paladin.  So in those dialogues when she's talking about not being able to be a paladin, we can say, "Oh, is that what you want?" and level her up as paladin.  This is basically the same as initially giving her paladin levels.  The issue will have to be addressed in any case.  Maybe she can only level in paladin after a special quest, or else can't become a paladin?
Eh, I may be putting words in Wes' mouth, but I thought it was beyond the scope of this project to add quests, change dialog, etc.

Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2003, 09:43:44 PM »
Quote
In 3ed D&D she could be a paladin of Arvoreen or a “Halfling defender” (Prc). In BG2 she had special powers granted by hers deity. In IWG 2 she should be (and she is) a paladin (or paladin/fighter or paladin/ranger)
I think she should stay as a fighter because she says she can't be a paladin, that is her character hook. Otherwise it'd be like MCing Valygar to a mage or something.....
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AvatarofInsolence

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2003, 02:34:31 PM »
Which could also be done...

Samuel Coyote

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2003, 10:00:34 PM »
Yes. There is, however, a difference between being able to do something, and being forced to do it. You can easily have just about any multi class you want, even ones that make no sense at all, but they shouldn't be forced on you. The most practical solution(since we will never agree on this(or anything else)) would seem to be to start her without paladin levels, and let people decide what path they want to take.
Perhaps start her at a low level, but with high exp, so her levels wont be horribly unbalanced for those who want to multi her to paladin.  

Balfor

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2003, 12:14:38 AM »
A quick note about Halflings and Paladins:

I've 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms' Faiths and Pantheons sitting in my lap, and, well, Avoreen sponsors Paladins. ;) So does Yondala!

Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2003, 03:48:55 AM »
But Mazzy says she can't be a Paladin. The rules have changed but I don't think that's a reason to change her character.

If people really want her to be a paladin they can give her levels in it. But I think starting Mazzy should be a fighter, because that's what she was and she says she can't be a paladin.
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Kish

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2003, 05:41:52 AM »
Just one thing to bear in mind...
If she has 4 to 8 levels in one class (presuming, and certainly hoping, no one's considering making her a rogue),  she will not be able to multiclass to another--fighter or paladin--without being socked with an XP penalty until both classes become equal in level, after which the XP penalty will be lifted only for so long as they remain equal in level.  I'm not offering an opinion on which she should be, but making her either is setting up a problem for players who think she should be the other class that can't be fixed by just multiclassing her.

Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2003, 04:49:22 AM »
I think if people want to go against what Mazzy says they deserve to pay an EXP penalty..... *evil laugh*

20% isn't that bad. It's not crippling, and as you said it will go away with time.....
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Kish

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2003, 09:22:42 AM »
Quote
20% isn't that bad. It's not crippling, and as you said it will go away with time.....
No, I said it won't go away with time, unless the person keeps her an equal-levels fighter/paladin.

Offline Andyr

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2003, 09:37:23 AM »
That's what I meant, sorry.....

Even if she is uneven, though, there'll be 3 levels without the penalty.
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Mike

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Mazzy: Should she be a paladin?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2004, 07:56:17 AM »
I know this is a late stage to put this in but I se no reson why Mazzy should not be allowed to be a pure paladin. Mazzy's problem isn't that she cannot be a paladin but that "The most noble order of the radiant heart" only allows HUMANS as members. As I understand it, the order is open for human lawful warriors, whatever they are paladins or not hench why Anomen got his squirehood there. Thou I doubt that they would allow any LE person to be a member. So to be a member of the order you must be human, LN or LG and of a warrior class. The suitable warrior classes are fighter, paladin and ranger and maybe monks. Barbarians cannot be be members due to their inability to be lawful.

Now with third edition rules you can make your own non human paladin and so get the paladin stronhold but the PC are a Bhaalspawn after all. The order want to make sure that this Bhaalspawn stands on the rightioues path and so makes an exception in this case. Mazzy isn't exceptional enough until many years later according to the ToB epilogue for her.

I really hate your tendency for multiclassing npc's to keep their flavor, you don't need that. Nalia could be a pure mage with some rouge skill and the martial weapon bow feat and so you can evan remove some dual/multiclassing that 2e edition rules forced upon them. Mages can learn to open locks, at a price.

I really need to get my E-mail working again so I can register...

 

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