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BG1 Completed Mods => Tutu Mods and Modding => Topic started by: Bursk on January 27, 2007, 03:11:02 PM

Title: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 27, 2007, 03:11:02 PM
I'm specifically wondering about the 'Lost Items' and 'Monks aren't lame' components.

Firstly, is there any other mod that does something similar to the Lost Items part?  If so, which mod is considered the more balanced?

Has anyone tried out the monk component and used it through both Tutu and BG2?  Is it a welcome change, or does it makes monks too powerful?

Finally, assuming that the Lost Items component is recommended to me, is there any way that I can remove the size 50 stacks that it implements?  I use other methods to increase my stack size (and I don't mean some sort of pump), and this is messing things up for me.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 29, 2007, 11:56:07 PM
The BG2 Tweaks 'Exotic Items (http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/content.php)' component probably does something similar to Lost Items, which adds a katana, wakizashi or two about the game.  I doubt they do so overpoweringly though or conflict, even if both used.

The anti-wuss monk component is probably similar to the Monk Remix in Sword and Fist (http://www.gibberlings3.net/swordandfist/), though it probably isn't as extensive.  They are probably also compatible, though you might want to install Lost Items first.  I have installed them both without errors, though I've never really played a monk, except in initial Lost Items testing.

As for your 'stack size' :P, I can't recall if that's an optional component.  Ascension64 updated the mod though, so maybe he can comment.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on January 30, 2007, 05:11:04 AM
No, from the description of the mod, the ammo stacks is part of the Lost Items component. I guess you can change this by finding a mod that allows you to change the stack size (such as Boorsook's MixMod) and installing it on top of Lost Items.

Alternatively, if you are more adventurous, simply find this single line in Setup-LostItems.tp2 (there are two instances of this):

WRITE_SHORT 0X38 50

and put a comment at the start of the line...

// WRITE_SHORT 0X38 50

Then, re-install the Lost Items component.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 30, 2007, 05:44:45 AM
Thanks for the replies.

I've never looked at Sword and Fist, so I'll have to have a look at the readme to see how it compares.  I have read that monks are crap at low levels, so it seems that something will need to be done.

Regarding Exotic Items, I seem to recall that Cam said something about the katana, wakizashi etc being very rare in the game, so these still weren't really viable weapon choices for a character.  But I also plan on using the BG2 Tweak Pack's 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies' component, so maybe that will even things up a bit.  I know these types of weapons are meant to be rare in the Sword Coast, but I'd still like every weapon choice to be okay to pick for a new character.

Ascension64, could you tell me how many of each item are put into the game by Lost Items, and where?  I'll also contact Cam and see if he can do the same regarding Exotic Items.  That should give me a better idea of what mod to install, or even if I should install them both.

I opened the tp2 and found that entry at both line 409 and line 694 (two instances, like you said).  There is meant to be a space between // and 'WRITE_SHORT 0X38 50', yeah?

Edit: Ah, I forgot to explain further the stack size issue.  I do use Mix Mod (with 100% ammo stack size increase) in conjunction with Tutufix's BG2 Ammo Stacks.  Using these two mods together (with BG2 Ammo Stacks installed first) gives me arrow stacks of 80.  This is the same as I use when playing BG2.

Problem is, if I install Lost Items before Mix Mod, I then get arrow stacks of 100, since Mix Mod is doubling the 50 from Lost Items, and not the 40 from Tutufix's BG2 Ammo Stacks.  It may seem like an odd thing to 'complain' about, but I want my max stack sizes for ammo, potions, scrolls etc to be identical for both BG Tutu and BG2.  That's why I'll have to edit the tp2, I guess.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 30, 2007, 05:37:28 PM
Regarding Exotic Items, I seem to recall that Cam said something about the katana, wakizashi etc being very rare in the game, so these still weren't really viable weapon choices for a character.  But I also plan on using the BG2 Tweak Pack's 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies' component, so maybe that will even things up a bit.  I know these types of weapons are meant to be rare in the Sword Coast, but I'd still like every weapon choice to be okay to pick for a new character.
Yes, these are kept very rare intentionally. "WARNING:  Magical katanas are very rare in Baldur's Gate 2!" is a bad enough joke in BG2. ;)

Some mod has also gone through and added unenchanted bracers and belts to a grip of stores. I don't know why but it's very obnoxious. (Edit: It's BG1UB.) One of the guys in Sirine's Call has an unenchanted katana, and there are some normal scimitars present on other SC creatures.

And now, for the spoilers (everything that's added by Exotic Items)...





Scrolls
Weapons
Other
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 30, 2007, 05:39:48 PM
And to save anyone a trip to the readme, the Add Bags of Holding component adds a gem bag to the Friendly Arms Inn store, a scroll case at the High Hedge, an Ammo Belt to Black Lily, a Potion Case to the Beregost Temple, and a Bag of Holding to the Sorcerous Sundries.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: berelinde on January 30, 2007, 05:47:36 PM
Was the potion case changed recently? I always find it in Nashkel, at the store.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 30, 2007, 05:52:16 PM
Oh yeah, scratch that. More readme errors--let's try a gem bag to FAI, scroll case to High Hedge, ammo belt to Thunderhammer, bag of holding to Sorcerous Sundries, and, indeed, the potion case at the Nashkel store.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: devSin on January 30, 2007, 06:16:33 PM
Some mod has also gone through and added unenchanted bracers and belts to a grip of stores. I don't know why but it's very obnoxious.
icelus thanking you muchly for your praise.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 30, 2007, 06:44:21 PM
Thanks for the list, Cam.

The only 'problem' I see with the items added is that if you're using the 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies' component from the Tweak Pack, creating a character who uses wakazashis/katanas is a mistake.  I can't see how a fighter who puts all his stars into this proficiency will survive.  But why should the game punish you for choosing this particular proficiency group?  Sure, the weapons are rare, but couldn't there be a standard, non-magical wakazashi or katana available a little earlier, just for those of us who use 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies'?

Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 30, 2007, 07:15:51 PM
Sure, the weapons are rare, but couldn't there be a standard, non-magical wakazashi or katana available a little earlier, just for those of us who use 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies'?
In 'Lost Items' you can get both in Candlekeep (you'll have to search a bit, but they're there) as well as potion, scroll and gem containers on Gorion's dead body.

Alternatively, if you are more adventurous, simply find this single line in Setup-LostItems.tp2 (there are two instances of this):
WRITE_SHORT 0X38 50
and put a comment at the start of the line...
// WRITE_SHORT 0X38 50
Any reason not to make the stack changes an optional component?  As I observed before, the original authors seem to have abandoned the mod and left it open to future community revision.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 30, 2007, 07:46:37 PM
The only 'problem' I see with the items added is that if you're using the 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies' component from the Tweak Pack, creating a character who uses wakazashis/katanas is a mistake.  I can't see how a fighter who puts all his stars into this proficiency will survive.  But why should the game punish you for choosing this particular proficiency group?  Sure, the weapons are rare, but couldn't there be a standard, non-magical wakazashi or katana available a little earlier, just for those of us who use 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies'?
Rebalanced or no, katanas and wakizashis are rare on the Sword Coast, as the prof warns you (be it rebalanced or no). From a roleplaying standpoint, how did you have access to them in Candlekeep and managed to become proficient with them anyway?

No, I'm not going to alter it for powergamers at the expense of roleplaying and common sense. Cheat in a weapon if you must.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 30, 2007, 07:57:40 PM
Rebalanced or no, katanas and wakizashis are rare on the Sword Coast, as the prof warns you (be it rebalanced or no). From a roleplaying standpoint, how did you have access to them in Candlekeep and managed to become proficient with them anyway?
I'm sure you could make up something.  Some wandering monk/weaponsmaster from the East (or wherever in FR terms) visits Candlekeep and teaches you the Art of War, grasshopper.  Then the assassins who are looking for you kill him in the process, leaving his rather odd items behind.

Little point in changing one mod if it's already available in another, in any case.

I've always wondered why katanas and wakizashis are different proficiencies from bastard swords and short swords anyway.  From what I know of fencing, you don't use them really all *that* differently.  A rapier is more different from a long sword than a scimitar or katana is.  Though I think there's a Tweaks component that changes this too.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 30, 2007, 08:06:08 PM
I've always wondered why katanas and wakizashis are different proficiencies from bastard swords and short swords anyway.  From what I know of fencing, you don't use them really all *that* differently.  A rapier is more different from a long sword than a scimitar or katana is.  Though I think there's a Tweaks component that changes this too.
Definitely different. The weight is distributed differently along the blade than short/long/bastard swords, and the curved blades make countering attacks much different (basically, it's a deflection and strike in one motion if done correctly). The curved blades (and lack of a bloodlet) makes them primarily fast, slashing weapons with few thrusting attacks. Dexterity and technique is a lot more important than strength. :)

(Yes, I was in kenjutsu classes with live blades.)
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 30, 2007, 09:03:12 PM
The weight is distributed differently along the blade than short/long/bastard swords, and the curved blades make countering attacks much different (basically, it's a deflection and strike in one motion if done correctly).
So they're similar to scimitars and sabers in that respect.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 30, 2007, 10:25:11 PM
Sabres are straight, so parrying is different. I believe scimitars have more weight at their end, whereas katanas and wakizashis are more or less equally weighted along their length.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 30, 2007, 10:48:24 PM
Sabres are straight...
They're usually curved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre) actually, though not as much as scimitars.  Also single-edged, which puts them in the same broad category as scimitars, cutlasses, shamshirs, falchions, katanas and wakizashis.  I'm sure there are differences in weighting and the like, just as there are amongst straight double-edged longswords of different types.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 31, 2007, 05:39:18 AM
The only 'problem' I see with the items added is that if you're using the 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies' component from the Tweak Pack, creating a character who uses wakazashis/katanas is a mistake.  I can't see how a fighter who puts all his stars into this proficiency will survive.  But why should the game punish you for choosing this particular proficiency group?  Sure, the weapons are rare, but couldn't there be a standard, non-magical wakazashi or katana available a little earlier, just for those of us who use 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies'?
Rebalanced or no, katanas and wakizashis are rare on the Sword Coast, as the prof warns you (be it rebalanced or no). From a roleplaying standpoint, how did you have access to them in Candlekeep and managed to become proficient with them anyway?

No, I'm not going to alter it for powergamers at the expense of roleplaying and common sense. Cheat in a weapon if you must.

Hold on, having access to a non-magical wakazashi or katana early on in the game is powergaming?  Don't you think it's a little harsh that a player can choose a weapon proficiency that they then aren't able to use?  What's the point in offering the proficiency during character creation if it's useless?  Why not just remove it from the game, after all 'how did you have access to them in Candlekeep and managed to become proficient with them anyway?'.  But isn't it possible that a culture-heavy place like Candlekeep would have a few of these exotic weapons?  I'm not suggesting that someone in Candlekeep would be selling these things, but maybe your PC took an interest in the exotic and was granted persmission to practice with one of them.

Not trying to be a dick, rather just stating an alternate point of view.  Still, I'm pretty sure I've explained things thoroughly and clearly, so will now drop the subject.  I think healthy debate on how to change and hopefully improve the game is a good thing.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 31, 2007, 05:47:03 AM
Sure, the weapons are rare, but couldn't there be a standard, non-magical wakazashi or katana available a little earlier, just for those of us who use 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies'?
In 'Lost Items' you can get both in Candlekeep (you'll have to search a bit, but they're there) as well as potion, scroll and gem containers on Gorion's dead body.

Alternatively, if you are more adventurous, simply find this single line in Setup-LostItems.tp2 (there are two instances of this):
WRITE_SHORT 0X38 50
and put a comment at the start of the line...
// WRITE_SHORT 0X38 50
Any reason not to make the stack changes an optional component?  As I observed before, the original authors seem to have abandoned the mod and left it open to future community revision.

Thanks for the info, Miloch.

I'll have to try the mod, but this is the kind of give-away that I hope to avoid in mods I use.  I think it's a little unbalanced to just gift the player these things.  I'm leaning towards just using Exotic Items, but I'll have to give it some more thought.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Kulyok on January 31, 2007, 05:54:47 AM
Quote
And to save anyone a trip to the readme, the Add Bags of Holding component adds a gem bag to the Friendly Arms Inn store, a scroll case at the High Hedge, an Ammo Belt to Black Lily, a Potion Case to the Beregost Temple, and a Bag of Holding to the Sorcerous Sundries.

What's that with BG2 Tweaks and potion cases? :) It is actually at Nashkel store.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on January 31, 2007, 06:01:53 AM
Well, here is the spoiler of all the changes made by the Lost Items component (I've highlighted the items that you would be interested in):

Ashirukuru, Shadow Warrior (in Durlag's Tower [TotSC])
Replaced Short Sword with Wazikashi +1
Added Boots of Phasing, Poisoned Throwing Dagger

Beyn (in the Ice Island cave [TotSC])
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Bracers of Defense AC4, Fail +2

Bishop (in the Chess game of Durlag's Tower [TotSC]
Added Full Plate Mail +1, Large Shield +1, Flail +1, Sling of Seeking +2, Sunstone Bullet +1

Davaeorn ('boss' of Cloakwood Mines)
Added Scroll Case, Bag of Holding, Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1

Gorion (umm, who is he?  :P Gets killed right after the tutorial)
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case, Potion Case, Scroll of Identify

Gnoll Chieftan (at Gnoll Stronghold and the area just South of the Lighthouse area)
Replaced Halbert with Spear +1
Added Hide Armor

Jardak (resides in a house in Baldur's Gate North)
Replaced Long Sword +1 with Katana +2
Added Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1

Nimbul (a hostile encounter at Nashkel)
Replaced Short Sword +1 with Scimitar +1
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case

Prism (Nashkel Mines exterior; the one hunted by Greywolf)
Added Gem Bag, Potion Case

Raemon (in Tazok's tent in the Bandit Camp)
Replaced Long Sword with Spear +2

Rashad (the poisoner of Duke Eltan in the final chapter)
Replaced Long Sword with Katana +2

Slythe (one of the assassins of Scar found in the final chapter)
Replaced Light Crossbow with Boomerang Dagger +2
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger

Tam (found in the exit of the Candlkeep Catacombs)
Replaced Short Sword with Spear +2

Teven (at Bandit Camp)
Replaced Long Sword with Wazikashi +1
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger

Teyngan (a bandit north-west of Nashkel)
Replaced Mace with Flail +1
Added Sling +1, Sunstone Bullet +1

Vax (a bandit south of Nashkel)
Replaced Halberd with Wazikashi +1
Added Ninja-To +1, 2 Ammo Belts, Poisoned Throwing Dagger

FW2602 - Candlekeep Introduction: Shank's Shack
Added to Container 3: Potion of Healing, unbreakable Ninja-To, unbreakable Katana

FW4800 - Nashkel
Added to Container 7: Ammo Belt, Bracers of Defense AC5, Dart of Stunning
Replace in Container 7: Ankheg Plate Mail with Hide Armor

Change stackable size to 50

As you can see, you get a number of 'gifts' right at the start of the game with Lost Items.

Oh, and it doesn't matter what you put after the '//' in the line, since that symbol simply comments everything after it out (till the end of line) no matter what follows it.

@Miloch: Yes, I can move to the ammo stacks part to a separate component.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 31, 2007, 06:55:57 AM
Hold on, having access to a non-magical wakazashi or katana early on in the game is powergaming?  Don't you think it's a little harsh that a player can choose a weapon proficiency that they then aren't able to use?  What's the point in offering the proficiency during character creation if it's useless?  Why not just remove it from the game, after all 'how did you have access to them in Candlekeep and managed to become proficient with them anyway?'.  But isn't it possible that a culture-heavy place like Candlekeep would have a few of these exotic weapons?  I'm not suggesting that someone in Candlekeep would be selling these things, but maybe your PC took an interest in the exotic and was granted persmission to practice with one of them.
There's been no valid reason presented so far other than "it's unfair, I want them!" They are rare. They remain rare. Any player who's roleplaying would probably read the prof description and not pick them, just like they probably wouldn't select the feralan kit. Normally I don't care about the powergaming stuff (after all it's Tweaks :) ), but this is one of the few content components of the mod.

A wandering trainer coming to Candlekeep, wanting to visit a big library, wanting to visit it enough that (s)he has 10k gold or the rare book to enter, wanting to stay long enough to meet you, having met you deciding to train you (afer all, wandering masters that just spent 10k gold to visit a library would definitely want to spend all their time with an untrained stableboy), and having decided to train you can stay long enough to actually make you proficient (much less multiple pips) is just a bit of a stretch.

Play Lost Items instead. There's a katana right there in Candlekeep for you.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 31, 2007, 07:37:08 AM
A wandering trainer coming to Candlekeep, wanting to visit a big library, wanting to visit it enough that (s)he has 10k gold or the rare book to enter, wanting to stay long enough to meet you, having met you deciding to train you (afer all, wandering masters that just spent 10k gold to visit a library would definitely want to spend all their time with an untrained stableboy), and having decided to train you can stay long enough to actually make you proficient (much less multiple pips) is just a bit of a stretch.
Sounds perfectly plausible to me.  Candlekeep has basically a Great Library so it'd be sought out by folks from afar.  And I'm sure they could be carrying books considered rare enough on the Sword Coast (though perhaps fairly common to the visitors) to let them in.  Moreover, the PC's heritage isn't exactly that big of a secret.  Some clandestine foreign organisation could have found it out by means of divination, revelation, espionage or any number of means.  Hence it sends an agent to help prepare/defend the PC, just as other organisations are sending agents to assassinate the PC.  But, the agent gets whacked by the other team unfortunately.  (Kind of like Connery crossing several countries to prepare the Highlander because he knows the Kurgan is out there, although the Kurgan takes Connery's head.)

But... I'm not arguing for redundant inclusion of more exotic weapons in Tweaks... I'm just saying it's a plausible scenario. :D

@Ascension64: Urk.  I was trying to avoid actually looking at the mod's code, lest I be tempted to drop a gigantic nerf bomb upon it.  Though this one would be fairly easy to add an optional nerf to, as opposed to some other mods (DSotSC anyone?).  And I guess these items are still relatively rare, considering all the regular swords and other weapons out there.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 31, 2007, 09:33:45 AM
Hold on, having access to a non-magical wakazashi or katana early on in the game is powergaming?  Don't you think it's a little harsh that a player can choose a weapon proficiency that they then aren't able to use?  What's the point in offering the proficiency during character creation if it's useless?  Why not just remove it from the game, after all 'how did you have access to them in Candlekeep and managed to become proficient with them anyway?'.  But isn't it possible that a culture-heavy place like Candlekeep would have a few of these exotic weapons?  I'm not suggesting that someone in Candlekeep would be selling these things, but maybe your PC took an interest in the exotic and was granted persmission to practice with one of them.
There's been no valid reason presented so far other than "it's unfair, I want them!" They are rare. They remain rare. Any player who's roleplaying would probably read the prof description and not pick them, just like they probably wouldn't select the feralan kit. Normally I don't care about the powergaming stuff (after all it's Tweaks :) ), but this is one of the few content components of the mod.

A wandering trainer coming to Candlekeep, wanting to visit a big library, wanting to visit it enough that (s)he has 10k gold or the rare book to enter, wanting to stay long enough to meet you, having met you deciding to train you (afer all, wandering masters that just spent 10k gold to visit a library would definitely want to spend all their time with an untrained stableboy), and having decided to train you can stay long enough to actually make you proficient (much less multiple pips) is just a bit of a stretch.

Play Lost Items instead. There's a katana right there in Candlekeep for you.

I thought I'd managed to explain myself well enough, but I guess not.

Firstly, I don't understand how being able to use a particular non-magical weapon is powergaming.  Perhaps you could shed some light on this for me.

Secondly, it's not a case of "it's unfair, I want them!".  What I do want is for someone, anyone, to be able to start a new game, create any kind of character they want, and then not be like 'WTF?  What's the point in being able to choose a weapon proficiency if there aren't any weapons of this type to use'.  Just because they are rare doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one, just one FFS, until much later in the game.  This is all I'm trying to say.  Belive me, I understand what you're saying, I just wish that I could get my points across more effectively.

Regarding someone training you in exotic weapons, I was thinking more along the lines of a visitor donating one or more of these weapons to Candlekeep, and then one of the trainers there, who can train people in more than one weapon type and has used exotics in the past (maybe he's well-travelled or something), helping you learn how to use it after you express a keen interest.  I don't see how that's such a stretch.

Edited for typos.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 31, 2007, 09:37:39 AM
*a helpful list*

Thanks for that.

Is it possible to comment out certain entries from the list?  The reason I prefer the look of Exotic Items is because I think it's much more balanced, and I'm not a powergamer.  I may still want to use some of the items added by Lost Items, but I'd really like stuff such as Gorion's entry removed from my game.  Gorion's entry being just one example, I'm sure I'd also remove a lot of the others.

Edit: To further expand on my above question, now that I've had a look at the tp2, can I edit it to change the items the NPCs have without causing any errors e.g. for Beyn, change REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC14~ to REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ to give him Bracers of Defense AC 5 instead of Bracers of Defense AC 4? Also, let's say I want Beyn to only have the Poisoned Throwing Dagger and Bracers of Defense, could I comment out the flail +2 entry e.g. by doing this:

//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant

Further edit:  Would it also be possible for me to completely change the item a NPC gets?  For example, Jardak's Long Sword +1 is replaced by a Katana +2 (lordy!), but if I instead wanted him to have a normal katana, could I just change:

REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SW1H55~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05

to

REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SW1H43~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05

And if I were to do such a thing, would it make the NPC automatically proficient in the new weapon (I'm curious as to how the mod deals with this already)?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 31, 2007, 10:36:31 AM
Firstly, I don't understand how being able to use a particular non-magical weapon is powergaming.  Perhaps you could shed some light on this for me.
Katanas are far and away the most powerful of the swords: 1d10, one-handed, can be used for backstabbing, has very minimal attribute requirements, and has a greater attack speed than bastard/long/two-handed swords and scimitars. The proficiency text warns you that they're going to be difficult to find. Why invest in a weapon that they're unlikely to find and doesn't make a lot of sense RPG-wise unless the eventual pay-off is worth it? I think we've just defined powergaming.

Secondly, it's not a case of "it's unfair, I want them!".  What I do want is for someone, anyone, to be able to start a new game, create any kind of character they want, and then not be like 'WTF?  What's the point in being able to choose a weapon proficiency if there aren't any weapons of this type to use'.  Just because they are rare doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one, just one FFS, until much later in the game.  This is all I'm trying to say.  Belive me, I understand what you're saying, I just wish that I could get my points across more effectively.
And I think we've hit the crux of the disagreement. Not all characters are created equal and I don't think the game should nanny poorly designed characters. If someone wants to create a fighter with 9 strength and 3 constitution, I don't think they should be able to find Bracers of Hardiness and a Stone Giant Girdle. Similarly, if a player wants to set aside the two warnings in the weapon proficiency selection screen and sink their pips into a rare and hard-to-find weapon, perhaps the weapon should be rare and hard for them to find. Yes, I believe the decisions of the players have consequences, and in this case the consequences are clearly spelled out. Twice.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 31, 2007, 10:48:58 AM
Firstly, I don't understand how being able to use a particular non-magical weapon is powergaming.  Perhaps you could shed some light on this for me.
Katanas are far and away the most powerful of the swords: 1d10, one-handed, can be used for backstabbing, has very minimal attribute requirements, and has a greater attack speed than bastard/long/two-handed swords and scimitars. The proficiency text warns you that they're going to be difficult to find. Why invest in a weapon that they're unlikely to find and doesn't make a lot of sense RPG-wise unless the eventual pay-off is worth it? I think we've just defined powergaming.

Secondly, it's not a case of "it's unfair, I want them!".  What I do want is for someone, anyone, to be able to start a new game, create any kind of character they want, and then not be like 'WTF?  What's the point in being able to choose a weapon proficiency if there aren't any weapons of this type to use'.  Just because they are rare doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one, just one FFS, until much later in the game.  This is all I'm trying to say.  Belive me, I understand what you're saying, I just wish that I could get my points across more effectively.
And I think we've hit the crux of the disagreement. Not all characters are created equal and I don't think the game should nanny poorly designed characters. If someone wants to create a fighter with 9 strength and 3 constitution, I don't think they should be able to find Bracers of Hardiness and a Stone Giant Girdle. Similarly, if a player wants to set aside the two warnings in the weapon proficiency selection screen and sink their pips into a rare and hard-to-find weapon, perhaps the weapon should be rare and hard for them to find. Yes, I believe the decisions of the players have consequences, and in this case the consequences are clearly spelled out. Twice.

Fair enough.  This certainly is a reasonable justification.  I must say that I was unaware that the katana was so powerful.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on January 31, 2007, 11:04:14 AM
It feels very odd for me to champion roleplaying concerns in Tweaks because several components can be used for convenience, powergaming, and/or outright cheating. Exotic Items was one I deliberately designed (much like Map Notes) to be minimal, balanced, and sensible. That's what makes me leap to its defense. :)
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on January 31, 2007, 11:27:16 AM
It feels very odd for me to champion roleplaying concerns in Tweaks because several components can be used for convenience, powergaming, and/or outright cheating. Exotic Items was one I deliberately designed (much like Map Notes) to be minimal, balanced, and sensible. That's what makes me leap to its defense. :)

I certainly understand your position a lot better (I didn't really understand it at all before) now that we've had this discussion, and I agree with what you're saying.

Neato.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 31, 2007, 04:49:26 PM
Is it possible to comment out certain entries from the list?
Yes.
Quote
can I edit it to change the items the NPCs have without causing any errors e.g. for Beyn, change REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC14~ to REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ to give him Bracers of Defense AC 5 instead of Bracers of Defense AC 4?
Erm, yes, for the most part.  Those are both BG2 resources but I guess that's ok, since it's Tutu and they aren't otherwise in Tutu.
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Also, let's say I want Beyn to only have the Poisoned Throwing Dagger and Bracers of Defense, could I comment out the flail +2 entry e.g. by doing this:
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant
Yes - that should restore the normal Hammer he had originally.  Now you might leave the flail on him and make it ~UNDROPPABLE~ instead of ~NONE~ so he hits harder but the PC can't loot the flail.  If you want the PC to get the hammer but not the flail, just change REPLACE to ADD (Ascension64 invented this technique for another mod I'm working on :D).
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Further edit:  Would it also be possible for me to completely change the item a NPC gets?  For example, Jardak's Long Sword +1 is replaced by a Katana +2 (lordy!), but if I instead wanted him to have a normal katana, could I just change:
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SW1H55~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05
to
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SW1H43~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05
Yep (this is pretty much the same as your 2nd question above).
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And if I were to do such a thing, would it make the NPC automatically proficient in the new weapon (I'm curious as to how the mod deals with this already)?
Well yes and no.  I don't think the mod does deal with it, which is another reason for my "Urk."  If you're changing the type of weapon the NPC has, you also want to check their proficiencies and set it accordingly.  You can look this up in the IESDP (http://iesdp.gibberlings3.net/ieformats/cre_v1.htm), and the syntax would be something like:
Code: [Select]
WRITE_BYTE 0x6e 3 //Large swords proficiency of 3 (was # [whatever it was])Now in this case, the large swords probably covers both long sword and katana, so you probably don't have to mess with it.  We've been going back and forth on this on the G3 forums but the experienced modders seem to say the BG1-style 'blanket' proficiencies cover the respective BG2/Tutu-style proficiencies.  I think there's an entry that replaces a halberd with a wakizashi, so that should be checked.

And if you're going to do all that for this mod... cheers, it takes something off my to-do list. :D  I would suggest doing it in an optional group component so when installing you get something like:
Quote
Install Component: Lost Items
1) Use original items
2) Use balanced items (nerfed if you prefer)
So the uber-powergamer-cheaters won't complain about the original stuff being gone. :P  Normally you'd want to ask permission from the original modder(s) before doing this but the guys in the readme seem to be long gone and also seemed to imply whoever wanted to fix things up a bit could do so.

It would be cool to add a splotch of dialog explaining the presence of the 'exotic' items in Candlekeep (if you choose to keep them there).  Another plausible explanation occurred to me.  Candlekeep is a library, but also basically a big monastery what with all the monks running around, the pilgrim chanters and whatnot, right?  Just like historical and modern monasteries, the monks in the order come from all over the place, as do pilgrims who visit it.  So it's quite likely one of them could have or be acquainted with 'exotic' weapons, and have passed on some knowledge to the PC, maybe even have some weapons hidden about.  It could in fact be Parda, the "concerned monk" who talks to you after the initial battle with the assassin where the 'exotic' items are stored (and Parda disappears into this building - little does he know you just looted his weapons though :P).
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on February 03, 2007, 12:48:32 PM
Thanks for the info, Miloch.

I have had some further thoughts on how to customise this mod to my tastes (note that I'll also be using the 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies' component from G3 Tweaks), but before I get into all that I need to know how feasible it is for a character to play the first part of the game with a weapon they aren't proficient in?  Is it do-able, or would the THAC0 difference be suicide?

To elaborate, I'm trying to think of a way to 'naturally' introduce a normal wakizashi into the game, in a way that the player is guaranteed to encounter it.  I was wondering if having Nimbul wielding it would be a good choice (swapping out his Short Sword +1, or maybe making it so that he still uses the SS +1 but only the wakizashi is present when he's dead).  Would a player with the katana/wakizashi proficiency be able to get by with another weapon until the Nimbul encounter?  If so, I think this may be a good compromise between the powergamer being given one of the best weapons for free early on, and being punished for choosing the 'wrong' proficiency.

Feedback is very welcome.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 03, 2007, 10:00:17 PM
To elaborate, I'm trying to think of a way to 'naturally' introduce a normal wakizashi into the game, in a way that the player is guaranteed to encounter it.  I was wondering if having Nimbul wielding it would be a good choice (swapping out his Short Sword +1, or maybe making it so that he still uses the SS +1 but only the wakizashi is present when he's dead).
Why would you bother with that?  Unless you want to just give him the +1, the PC won't notice a huge difference.  And my main problem with this guy is the spells if I recall arightly, not his hit/dam potential.
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Would a player with the katana/wakizashi proficiency be able to get by with another weapon until the Nimbul encounter?
I guess that's highly speculative.  There are some who say the game is too easy, some too hard.  I'd argue that if you're picking something like an 'exotic' proficiency that warns you against it, you're getting what you ask for, meaning a harder challenge.  And if you're doing that, you probably know the game well enough that it should be fairly easy.  Though ultimately the game will become easier once you get your filthy mitts on even a regular katana, let alone a magical one.  Like Cam said, it's 1d10 like a two-handed sword, and you can dual-wield the buggers, and you can do it quickly.

Having said all that, I rarely rush in to kill Nimbul.  It's tough for me even with a buff party and some rather cheesy tactics (a lot of potion swigging for starters) at low levels.  A wakizashi isn't all that great though really, is it?  Where would you propose getting the first katana?  If you can just buy it at Nashkel Carnival (isn't that in 'Exotic Items'?), surely that would be easier (and a better weapon certainly) than trying to hold out for a wakizashi by killing an assassin?

Edit: Ok I actually went back and reread the spoilers above. :P  In Exotic Items, the first katana appears to be available at Firewine and the first Wakizashi at the bandit camp.  I think the Ninja-To in the flesh golem cave, which is pretty much the same as a wakizashi only a bit faster.  You could argue that a Scimitar +1 (available around Nashkel in Exotic Items and even earlier in the unmodded game) is a better weapon, or around the same at any rate.

So how about this.  You can get all those weapons earlier (maybe via Lost Items) - they're just crappy versions.  Not exactly cursed, but they're maybe made of bronze or sub-standard iron (even poorer than what's about normally in BG1 :D), slower and have either penalties or cause less damage.  They're also rare when you compare them with stuff like short and longswords.  But this would make sense both balance-wise and logically, and also give the player who chooses that proficiency the ability to get a weapon he/she specialised in (albeit, like I said, a crappy one).  There's certainly precedent for this - in most CRPGs you start off with 'shoddy' items and built up to 'masterwork' or whatever the case may be.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on February 04, 2007, 05:52:21 AM
Miloch, I've been giving the matter a lot of thought (probably too much) and all I really want to do is complement Exotic Items with a number of additional weapons, so that there's no 'wrong' proficiency choice at the start of the game.  But this doesn't mean that I want to make the game easy for those who choose exotic weaponry.

Keep in mind that my changes are based on using 'Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies', so the katana and wakizashi will share the same proficiency.  I took a look at a couple of characters using a weapon they don't have any stars in, and I found the following (I'm sure you already know this):

Fighter
THAC0 4* Prof = 17
THAC0 0* Prof = 21

Ranger
THAC0 2* Prof = 18
THAC0 0* Prof = 21

I'm guessing that it's possible these characters could make it to (and past) the Nimbul encounter using a weapon they aren't proficient in, provided they have a solid party to support them.

The reason I suggested keeping Nimbul equipped with his short sword +1 was so as not to make him easier, but then I did a test and found that he wields a throwing axe, so it won't make any difference if I swap the SS +1 with a wakizashi.  For my other changes, I wanted there to be a couple of greater magical non-exotics added, as I believe these aren't available in the stock game.  These added items appear late, so I don't think it will unbalance things (rather, it may balance up the spread of magical items to make any item type - expect maybe exotics - a decent late-game choice).

Here's the changes I propose to the Lost Items component:

Beyn - Change the Bracers of Defense AC 4 to Bracers of Defense AC 5 and remove the Flail +2 and Poisoned Throwing Dagger.
Gnoll Chieftan - Remove the Hide Armour.
Jardak - Change his Katana +2 to a Flail +2. Also remove the Sling +2 and Sunstone Bullet +1.
Nimbul - Swap Short Sword +1 with normal Wakizashi. Remove Gem Bag and Scroll Case.
Tam - No changes necessary.

I believe the tp2 changes should look like this (although I'd really appreciate someone checking this for me):

COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant

COPY_EXISTING ~_GNOLL_C.CRE~ ~override/_GNOLL_C.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~_SPER02~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP TWOHANDED //was _HALB01
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~LEAT10~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~ARMOR~

COPY_EXISTING ~_JARDAK.CRE~ ~override/_JARDAK.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H05
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SLNG04~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV3~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BULL04~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV4~

COPY_EXISTING ~_NIMBUL.CRE~ ~override/_NIMBUL.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~_SW1H46~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _SW1H08
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SWBAG02B~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV2~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SWBAG03C~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~INV3~

COPY_EXISTING ~_TAM.CRE~ ~override/_TAM.CRE~
 REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~SPER05~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ EQUIP TWOHANDED //was _SW1H07

These are the only parts of the 'Lost Items' component I wish to use.  Again, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to stop the other parts i.e. the other NPC changes and the location changes, being installed, be it through commenting-out or text deletion.

I'm afraid the part about reassigning BG1 proficiencies to the above NPCs went right over my head, so I could also use some help with that.  Sure, I know both bo and diddly about modding, but I am trying to learn.

Miloch, I'm sorry I'm not planning to do the major overhaul that you were proposing, but I really don't feel that this mod should provide too much if it's also being used with 'Exotic Items'.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on February 04, 2007, 04:58:37 PM
Well, you could simply delete the parts of the code you don't like. There will be two instances of each, so if you use Tutu, just delete the ones where the CRE names start with an underscore ('_') and the ARE names start with FW. If you want to keep the code there, you can use /* for a start comment that spans multiple lines, then */ to end the comment. Use // to comment out a single line.

Using an example, you can comment out the _BEYN.CRE patch in three ways:

Code: [Select]
COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant
Code: [Select]
//COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant
Code: [Select]
/*COPY_EXISTING ~_BEYN.CRE~ ~override/_BEYN.CRE~
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~DAGG16~ #50 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON2~ //was _DAGG05(20) redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BRAC13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~GLOVES~ //was _BRAC02 redundant
REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant*/
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 04, 2007, 10:46:35 PM
My 2 cents.

On Kara-Turan weapons: If the proficiency exists during Character Creation, then CHARNAME must have some sort of access to the weapon(s) in Candlekeep, or at least something similar enough to serve for training purposes. But due to their rare and exotic nature, the proficiency must have significant penalties. I would suggest capping the Katana/Wakizashi proficiency at a maximum of 1 point during Character Creation, as there's nobody who could train you. Any itinerant Kensai or Monk would be there solely as the attendant bodyguard of a passing Wu-Jen who happened to be able to read Common, and would in all probability have neither the time nor the inclination to instruct a local ruffian in anything more than a few basic cuts & feints. Nor would the Watchers be of any help in training--quite the opposite, really, as they would all laugh at CHARNAME's attempts to wield a curved sword, and urge him to take up a real weapon instead.

Nor would this theoretical Kara-Turan swordsman just casually dump his blades into some random container in the Barracks. What the heck were you thinking? Is this still Baldur's Gate 1 we're talking about here, or has this thread migrated to the Duke Nukem boards? Gifting CHARNAME with over 250gp worth of Oriental steel, free to dual-wield to his heart's content, and all for overcoming the horrifically daunting archfiend known as Shank, is the kind of thing that will make your mod suck, no doubt about it. No, this samurai would have sold his spare weapon, not given it away--he would have given CHARNAME his boken to practice with, if that. I do agree, though, that all Kara-Turan steel should be unbreakable: It was made far away and well before the advent of the iron crisis, so unless you actually dunk the blades in mineral poison or rub them with contaminated ore, they should be perfectly trustworthy.

My idea of distribution would be as follows:
Katana -- dropped by Melium, dropped by one of the adventuring party encountered in the Basilisk map
Katana+1 -- dropped by Tamoko
Wakizashi -- sold by Winthrop, sold by Taerom Fuirim, dropped by one of the Iron Throne party at the Nashkel Mines backdoor
Wakizashi+1 -- dropped by one of Sunin's guards
Ninja-to -- dropped by Nimbul, dropped by Credus, dropped by Thaldorn
Ninja-to+1 -- sold by Black Lily
Rare? Difficult to obtain? Late in the game? Guilty as charged. You were warned. If CHARNAME wants to use his Katana/Wakizashi proficiency right from Day 1, he should have to pay for it--probably even being forced to sacrifice the purchase price of the Splint Mail.

Ashirukuru, Shadow Warrior (in Durlag's Tower [TotSC])
Replaced Short Sword with Wazikashi +1
Added Boots of Phasing, Poisoned Throwing Dagger
Why? They're already nasty enough as it is, especially if you don't want to abuse (or have used up) Durlag's Goblet. Personally, I don't think invisible-by-nature creatures should have any loot at all.

Quote
Beyn (in the Ice Island cave [TotSC])
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Bracers of Defense AC4, Fail +2
I can see how he might be considered to be more powerful than Davaeorn, but then again he doesn't have the backing of a powerfully rich mercantile organization. His Bracers should be AC6, if that.

Quote
Bishop (in the Chess game of Durlag's Tower [TotSC]
Added Full Plate Mail +1, Large Shield +1, Flail +1, Sling of Seeking +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
The Full Plate and Slings are too much, methinks.

Quote
Davaeorn ('boss' of Cloakwood Mines)
Added Scroll Case, Bag of Holding, Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
Personally, I would lose the sling & bullets, and move the BoH to one of the chests in his treasury.

Quote
Gorion (umm, who is he?  :P Gets killed right after the tutorial)
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case, Potion Case, Scroll of Identify
Lose the Gem Bag and Potion Case and that's more like it.

Quote
Gnoll Chieftan (at Gnoll Stronghold and the area just South of the Lighthouse area)
Replaced Halbert with Spear +1
Added Hide Armor
I'd make it a Halberd+1, and frankly, I find it easier to picture a Gnoll wearing ragged bits of Chain armor.

Quote
Jardak (resides in a house in Baldur's Gate North)
Replaced Long Sword +1 with Katana +2
Added Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
Katana--no. Just no. And I think his (existing?) Crossbow is more appropriate than a Sling.

Quote
Nimbul (a hostile encounter at Nashkel)
Replaced Short Sword +1 with Scimitar +1
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case
I see no real reason for the Scroll Case, but the Gem Bag is appropriate in the sense that he expects to collect loot and riches from his vitims. The change to Scimitar is good (since the party just got a SS+1 from Mulahey), but more important would be correcting his hacked AC, giving him a pair of droppable Bracers of AC8, and changing his Throwing Axes to Throwing Daggers.

Quote
Prism (Nashkel Mines exterior; the one hunted by Greywolf)
Added Gem Bag, Potion Case
This quest is overburdened with phat lewt as it is--let it be.

Quote
Raemon (in Tazok's tent in the Bandit Camp)
Replaced Long Sword with Spear +2
A Spear+1 would be better on Britik, the Gnoll. Leave the +2 verson on Tam.

Quote
Rashad (the poisoner of Duke Eltan in the final chapter)
Replaced Long Sword with Katana +2
Apart from the Kara-Turan weapons issues I blabbed about above, as a general rule Doppelgangers use no weapons at all. Are you sure he carries a Longsword?

Quote
Slythe (one of the assassins of Scar found in the final chapter)
Replaced Light Crossbow with Boomerang Dagger +2
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger
Only if you remove his Crossbow & Bolts. Let the Boomerang Dagger be of +1 enchantment, leave the +2 for BG2.

Quote
Tam (found in the exit of the Candlkeep Catacombs)
Replaced Short Sword with Spear +2
Good. As long as he's not the Gnome, that is.

Quote
Teven (at Bandit Camp)
Replaced Long Sword with Wazikashi +1
Added Poisoned Throwing Dagger
He's too much of a low-level flunky to have good loot.

Quote
Teyngan (a bandit north-west of Nashkel)
Replaced Mace with Flail +1
Added Sling +1, Sunstone Bullet +1
What's with all the Sunstone Bullets? I say this guy is fine as-is, anyway. Not everybody in the world gets an enchanted weapon, after all.

Quote
Vax (a bandit south of Nashkel)
Replaced Halberd with Wazikashi +1
Added Ninja-To +1, 2 Ammo Belts, Poisoned Throwing Dagger
I would lose all of that except for 1 Ammo Belt--and it goes on Zal, not Vax. And Darts and Throwing Daggers use different proficiencies.

Quote
FW2602 - Candlekeep Introduction: Shank's Shack
Added to Container 3: Potion of Healing, unbreakable Ninja-To, unbreakable Katana
An extra Potion of Healing in the beginning can be a lifesaver, and carries no risk of unbalancing the game. The weaponry, however, is right out.

Quote
FW4800 - Nashkel
Added to Container 7: Ammo Belt, Bracers of Defense AC5, Dart of Stunning
Replace in Container 7: Ankheg Plate Mail with Hide Armor
I don't get this change at all. First you store thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items in a little hole in the ground, and then you remove the Ankheg Plate, because the people of Nashkel don't leave thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items lying in a little hole in the ground. Wtf? The only things that might logically be found here are a low-level gemstone (not a Pearl), or a gold piece or two.

Quote
Change stackable size to 50
I see no problem with this at all, unless there's already some other mod that changes it to 40, which I think is good enough. 20 is just too low, I ALWAYS run out of ammo in the Cloakwood, even if I stuff my guys' backpacks completely full before heading off.

Quote
As you can see, you get a number of 'gifts' right at the start of the game with Lost Items.
See my point re: Duke Nukem.


[ADD] One thing I would add, though: There are two major changes between the loot found in BG1 and BG2. One, containers, has already been well taken care of. The other, Regeneration items, has yet to be addressed.  A Pearly White Ioun Stone could be added to The Surgeon and to one of the Red Wizards of Thay without upsetting anything, and since one of the major components of a Ring of Regeneration is part of a troll's brain, it seems right to put it in the abode of someone with access to plenty of these: Durlag Trollkiller. I'm thinking it would be perfect on the finger of the King in the chess game. Speaking of whom, however, the World's Edge needs some help: It's fine for BG1, but come BG2 and it's just a 2-Handed Sword+3, hardly worthy of the inflated title and the "it seems improbable that such a mighty weapon could ever be forged by the hands of mortals" that the Item Description keeps blathering on about. I'd say that this weapon could really do with an additional enchantment or two, to make it more unique, and less presumptuous in retrospect. A copy of it could even be added to the Improved North Forest component of the Tactics mod, along with the other loot from Durlag's Tower that's already there.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 05, 2007, 02:22:33 AM
The reason I suggested keeping Nimbul equipped with his short sword +1 was so as not to make him easier, but then I did a test and found that he wields a throwing axe, so it won't make any difference if I swap the SS +1 with a wakizashi.
He has both the short sword and the axe in his weapon slots, and the short sword is equipped by default.  But that change probably doesn't make a big difference, as I said above.  If you wanted to keep a +1 hit/dam bonus *and* give him the wakizashi, I would raise his STR from 13 to 17.
Quote
For my other changes, I wanted there to be a couple of greater magical non-exotics added, as I believe these aren't available in the stock game.  These added items appear late, so I don't think it will unbalance things (rather, it may balance up the spread of magical items to make any item type - expect maybe exotics - a decent late-game choice).
Fair enough, but I still think there could be shoddy exotics available early on.

Your other changes seem reasonable, but you might want to take SixOfSpades' comments and mine into consideration.  Once you get something you're happy with, I'll take a look and assign any missing proficiencies, and maybe make the changes you don't want to use an optional component, or just nerf them so they make more sense.

Any itinerant Kensai or Monk would be there solely as the attendant bodyguard of a passing Wu-Jen who happened to be able to read Common, and would in all probability have neither the time nor the inclination to instruct a local ruffian in anything more than a few basic cuts & feints.
Not if you buy the possibility one of the many Candlekeep monks could easily be Kara-Turan, and at Candlekeep either to seek enlightenment or specifically because of the Bhaalspawn prophecy, to train the PC.
Quote
Nor would this theoretical Kara-Turan swordsman just casually dump his blades into some random container in the Barracks. What the heck were you thinking?
It's the priest quarters, and the monk in question (Parda for example) is quartered there (dunno if you read my post above even).  I did not design this mod (neither did Ascension64), but let's not be too close-minded about it. :P  But I think these weapons you get in Candlekeep should be bronze or some other inferior quality for balance purposes so the shoddy katana is more in line with, say, an average long sword (not sure why people aren't getting this idea either).

Your other recommendations seem reasonable enough, at first glance anyway (only playtesting would really say for sure).  Specifically, though:
Quote
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Davaeorn ('boss' of Cloakwood Mines)
Added Scroll Case, Bag of Holding, Poisoned Throwing Dagger, Sling +2, Sunstone Bullet +1
Personally, I would lose the sling & bullets, and move the BoH to one of the chests in his treasury.
I wouldn't think Davaeorn not having a missile weapon would be an issue, but conceivably, he could run out of spells eventually I guess.  Might make sense to give him a normal sling and bullets or +1 at least.
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Gnoll Chieftan (at Gnoll Stronghold and the area just South of the Lighthouse area)
Replaced Halbert with Spear +1
Added Hide Armor
I'd make it a Halberd+1, and frankly, I find it easier to picture a Gnoll wearing ragged bits of Chain armor.
Normal chain?  Just FYI, this guy has base/effective AC of 2 wearing nothing.  A mod I'm working on gives him the halberd +1 and undroppable studded leather +2  I guess chain is roughly the same AC, though maybe also undroppable since any chain a gnoll would wear probably wouldn't fit a PC (and would likely reek something fierce :D).
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Rashad (the poisoner of Duke Eltan in the final chapter)
Replaced Long Sword with Katana +2
Apart from the Kara-Turan weapons issues I blabbed about above, as a general rule Doppelgangers use no weapons at all. Are you sure he carries a Longsword?
Yup.  Hasn't he shifted form?  A doppleganger duplicates its victim's clothing and equipment, so he might have a sword anyway.
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FW2602 - Candlekeep Introduction: Shank's Shack
Added to Container 3: Potion of Healing, unbreakable Ninja-To, unbreakable Katana
An extra Potion of Healing in the beginning can be a lifesaver, and carries no risk of unbalancing the game. The weaponry, however, is right out.
Ok, so how do you resolve that comment with this one?
If the proficiency exists during Character Creation, then CHARNAME must have some sort of access to the weapon(s) in Candlekeep, or at least something similar enough to serve for training purposes.
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FW4800 - Nashkel
Added to Container 7: Ammo Belt, Bracers of Defense AC5, Dart of Stunning
Replace in Container 7: Ankheg Plate Mail with Hide Armor
I don't get this change at all. First you store thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items in a little hole in the ground, and then you remove the Ankheg Plate, because the people of Nashkel don't leave thousands of gp worth of rare and powerful magic items lying in a little hole in the ground. Wtf? The only things that might logically be found here are a low-level gemstone (not a Pearl), or a gold piece or two.
I don't get it much either, unless one were questioning how ankheg armour would be lying around a Nashkel farm.  The hide armour may make more sense, since even the description says it could be made of multiple layers of cowhide.  So maybe some bored farmer/wanna-be armourer's project... I dunno.  Being as how it's an easter egg in the original game, I'd be tempted not to mess with it, but I suppose it could be optional too.
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...the World's Edge needs some help: It's fine for BG1...
Enough said, then.  Modding BG2 would be beyond the scope of this mod (unless you're suggesting a change for BG2 Tweaks or something).
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on February 05, 2007, 04:01:19 AM
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What the heck were you thinking?
Heh, yep, I just converted the mod, I didn't write it.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on February 05, 2007, 07:06:05 AM
There's not a mod in the universe that can't improve significantly with good feedback, and it doesn't come much better than from the Ding0 and 6oS.

I do agree, though, that all Kara-Turan steel should be unbreakable: It was made far away and well before the advent of the iron crisis, so unless you actually dunk the blades in mineral poison or rub them with contaminated ore, they should be perfectly trustworthy.
Agreed; the katanas, wakizashis, and ninja-tos from Exotic Items do not break.

[ADD] One thing I would add, though: There are two major changes between the loot found in BG1 and BG2. One, containers, has already been well taken care of. The other, Regeneration items, has yet to be addressed.  A Pearly White Ioun Stone could be added to The Surgeon and to one of the Red Wizards of Thay without upsetting anything, and since one of the major components of a Ring of Regeneration is part of a troll's brain, it seems right to put it in the abode of someone with access to plenty of these: Durlag Trollkiller. I'm thinking it would be perfect on the finger of the King in the chess game. Speaking of whom, however, the World's Edge needs some help: It's fine for BG1, but come BG2 and it's just a 2-Handed Sword+3, hardly worthy of the inflated title and the "it seems improbable that such a mighty weapon could ever be forged by the hands of mortals" that the Item Description keeps blathering on about. I'd say that this weapon could really do with an additional enchantment or two, to make it more unique, and less presumptuous in retrospect. A copy of it could even be added to the Improved North Forest component of the Tactics mod, along with the other loot from Durlag's Tower that's already there.
I'm not tremendously worried about The World's Edge, as it's already awe-inspiring for BG. Sure, BG2 makes it look lame (and especially ToB when everyone in Saradush has a +3 weapon) but it's still appropriate for the game in which it was intended. I think a regeneration item is an excellent idea. I think a full-blown BG2 regen ring is probably a bit overpowered, but something a bit less would definitely be appropriate.

One other item mod that applies to Tutu that hasn't been mentioned yet is Song & Silence. Raoul the merchant is at the Nashkel Carnival with his items, and some good thieving stuff has been added to Black Lily. I don't recall anything jumping out as being inappropriate; I bought some Caster's Chain and a Thieves' Hood from Raoul and the returning throwing dagger +1 from Black Lily.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on February 05, 2007, 07:47:09 AM
Just time for some quick replies since I need to get back to work.  I'm pleased to see such a good response to this topic.

SoS, thanks muchly for your feedback.  Most of the changes you propose are way beyond anything I can do, but they seem very well considered.  One thing I do wish to draw your attention to is the description for Bracers AC 6:

These bracers were held for decades by an undefeated gladiator, and found extensive use in arena combat.  The death of this champion marked the disappearance of this magical item, but rumors persist that they are used to this day in competitive combat across the lands.

I guess there should only be one pair of these in the game.  If you think Beyn having Bracers AC 5 is too much, perhaps he could just get the AC 7 version.

Oh, and Lost Items adds not one but three Potions of Healing to Shank's shack, so this may need to be reduced to just one.

Miloch, I used the 'move to area' cheat to get to Nimbul on two separate occasions, and each time he had an axe in his hand.  As I mentioned above, the changes I suggested earlier are based on my ablility to mod i.e. zero. So all I'm able to do is tweak those NPCs that the mod already alters. Despite this, I still think the small number of changes I've made (although that's not to say they can't be improved by people with more knowledge of the game/setting than me) are good.  The spear +2 on Tam (which is in the stock mod) is very late in the game, and I do like the addition of a flail +2 since I don't think there is one in unmodded BG. Perhaps the Jardak encounter is too soon to see this flail +2 but, like I said, I'm only able to tweak those characters already altered by the mod. In this context, I couldn't see a better candidate for the flail +2 than Jardak.

Regarding SoS comments on Doppelgangers using no weapons at all, I also found that the Ashirukuru didn't drop any weapons or loot in the stock game, so I'm not sure how adding anything to them makes sense; something to keep in mind if you're going to be making your own version of the mod.  I like the spear +1 on the Gnoll since it seems a decent time in the game to find one, considering that you don't normally get one until you reach Baldur's Gate.  Would the normal Wakizashi (SW1H46) added to Nimbul be unbreakable by default?

I'm basing my changes on using Exotic Items alongside Lost Items. If an alternate version of Lost Items is made, I think it should be designed to be used as well as Exotic Items, not instead of, and should be balanced accordingly.  Hmm, forgot about S&S. Perhaps that should be taken into account as well when making changes to Lost Items.

Miloch, if you are going to be taking on this challenge, please give consideration to my changes.  The only things I am unsure about are the Bracers AC 5 on Beyn (is this overpowered?) and the flail +2 on Jardak (does it come too soon in the game?).  The spear +1 should be available reasonably early (certainly before the party travels to BG) even if it's not on the Gnoll Chieftan, the late spear +2 on Tam is fine, plus it just seems 'cool' that a character like Nimbul has an exotic blade.  I also like the fact that the party is guaranteed to come across Nimbul's blade, which is useful if there aren't any katanas/wakizashis available earlier.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 05, 2007, 11:47:24 AM
One other item mod that applies to Tutu that hasn't been mentioned yet is Song & Silence. Raoul the merchant is at the Nashkel Carnival with his items, and some good thieving stuff has been added to Black Lily. I don't recall anything jumping out as being inappropriate; I bought some Caster's Chain and a Thieves' Hood from Raoul and the returning throwing dagger +1 from Black Lily.
They're good items and not too overpowered - just cheap as hell (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=8942).  Maybe some Cam butt-kicking @Andyr could get a new release out soon, for at least that one simple fix. :D

Miloch, I used the 'move to area' cheat to get to Nimbul on two separate occasions, and each time he had an axe in his hand.
Doh, well I guess I read it wrong - it says his selected slot is weapon1, which I interpreted to mean the first slot (where the sword is) but in fact that slot is weapon0. :P
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Regarding SoS comments on Doppelgangers using no weapons at all, I also found that the Ashirukuru didn't drop any weapons or loot in the stock game, so I'm not sure how adding anything to them makes sense; something to keep in mind if you're going to be making your own version of the mod.
What *is* an Ashirukuru?  It's coded as an undead human with a female elf thief animation and a male gender (note to self: fix this).  It should drop the sword at least, as far as I can tell.
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I like the spear +1 on the Gnoll since it seems a decent time in the game to find one, considering that you don't normally get one until you reach Baldur's Gate.
You can get a spear +1 in Firewine and Cloakwood as well in the standard game (and even Beregost if you kill Bjornin).  You can get a halberd +1 in Firewine, BG and Durlag's - it's slightly rarer too (and a better weapon at 1d10 vs. 1d6, but slower and not as powerful as a katana).  Up to you.
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Would the normal Wakizashi (SW1H46) added to Nimbul be unbreakable by default?
Yes - it is a BG2 weapon.  Only the Tutu/BG1 nonmagical metal weapons (those with underscores) have the breakage by default (it's coded as a spell/effect on the item).
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I'm basing my changes on using Exotic Items alongside Lost Items. If an alternate version of Lost Items is made, I think it should be designed to be used as well as Exotic Items, not instead of, and should be balanced accordingly.  Hmm, forgot about S&S. Perhaps that should be taken into account as well when making changes to Lost Items.
I would agree, being as BG2 Tweaks is so widely used.  I don't think the S&S items really conflict - they add different types of items, whereas Lost/Exotic Items add the same kinds of items.
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Miloch, if you are going to be taking on this challenge, please give consideration to my changes.  The only things I am unsure about are the Bracers AC 5 on Beyn (is this overpowered?)
I dunno... I don't think adding a single AC5 bracers late in the game would be that unbalancing (note to self: also fix nonsense gender of 0x9e on Beyn).  Also I'm reading the AC6 description as the possibility of there being several ("used to this day in competitive combat across the lands").  Not like that's a big deal - we could always use an alternate desc.
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and the flail +2 on Jardak (does it come too soon in the game?).
Jardak is in N. Baldur's Gate, right?  Isn't that fairly late in the game?  I guess you could put it on Tamoko who has a flail +1, but that doesn't give you much opportunity to use it.  It really isn't all that powerful of a weapon compared with some things, so I think it's ok.

I'll try to come up with something that incorporates everyone's suggestions, makes more of the components optional, and retains the original content as an option for those who want it (and to be fair to the original authors).  It shouldn't be too tough, since I don't have to come up with a bunch of new items or BAMs (maybe just for what 'shoddy' exotics you might get early on).  If you have other revisions or suggestions, just post them and I'll try to work them in. ;)
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on February 05, 2007, 12:20:50 PM
My mistake about the spear.  Still, the Gnoll Stronghold is early in the game, so perhaps a halberd +1 would be too much.  But I'm happy to go along with the SoS suggestion, since he knows more about this sort of thing than me.

I agree that the ice island and Beyn will be tackled late in the game, so think the AC 5 bracers are okay.  I disagree with you about the AC 6 bracers description.  The only part you quoted could mean there's more than one set, but 'These bracers were held for decades by an undefeated gladiator, and found extensive use in arena combat.  The death of this champion marked the disappearance of this magical item...'.  This is clearly talking about a specific set of bracers, and having these plus another set (the ones you get from Davaeorn) saying the exact same thing would be daft.  If the Beyn bracers are AC 6, we will definately need an alternate desc (like you said).

Jardak is indeed in North BG.

What are your current thoughts on how the mod will take shape?  I'm curious about the shoddy exotics you mention.  Please try to make sure that the alternate, nerfed version of the mods pleases Cam and his balance issues!
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 05, 2007, 11:12:09 PM
I had just written a neat, elegant to reply to everything in Burk's post and most of CamDawg's, and had copied what I wrote so I could include it in the same post when I replied to the next poster down . . . and Internet Explorer encountered a bug and needed to close. Gee, do you think my computer remembered what I had just copied to the clipboard? Of course not!

Therefore, everything I say from now on is 10 times more valid and self-evident than it sounds, 'cause I'm not typing that crap all the hell over again.

Yeah, I suppose a Kara-Turan might join Candlekeep as a Monk, but it's not really likely. Remember that we're only a few years after the Tuigan Horde overran Faerun, they're not exactly welcome. Exceptions exist, of course.

Why should Katanas, etc. be made of bronze or whatnot? Having them be exceedingly rare, and comparatively plain, should be enough. Besides, why would anyone carry a crappy weapon all the way to the Sword Coast?

Davaeorn still has a missile weapon--Throwing Daggers. I saw no need for a Sling as well.

Gnoll Chieftain drops unwearable Broken Armor, with a description that it was once enchanted Chain, split open so the Gnoll could wear it, and with or random armor oddments tacked on. It might lower his AC by a point or two, it might do nothing at all, it's mainly just there for flavor.

Doppelgangers' regular Claws seem to be more effective than a sword, and even if Rashad does actually use the weapon, he's the only one.

"Available" is not the same as "available immediately and for free." I did say that CHARNAME could have trained with a boken or even a curved stick, and there's a big difference between a Wakizashi that you can buy from Winthrop, and a Katana + Wakizashi that get dropped into your lap just for surviving a Level 1 Simpleton.

If you want to hide something, I can think of about a zillion better places to bury it than in a freshly-plowed field in rich farmland.

The fact that this isn't a BG2 mod is no reason not to mod an item that's currently only in BG1.

My "What the heck were you thinking" was aimed at the mod's author(s), not Bursk or Ascension or whoever.

If people like CamDawg didn't do all the work of actually writing this stuff, there'd be nothing to offer feedback on at all.

The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring: I consider it well outstripped by the Staff+3, Spider's Bane, and the SSoBackstabbing. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name. And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.

I'm wrong: Pearly White Ioun Stones shouldn't go to the Surgeon and a Red Wizard: They should go to the Surgeon and the stock of Sorcerous Sundries. 90% of the truly good items in the game come as loot, there should be more that you have to buy.

A Ring of Regen late in Durlag's is not overpowered; swiping it off somebody's finger on Day 1, THAT'S overpowered. Personally, I think it's fine for Chess Game loot.

I've always held that items with unique descriptions should be just that--unique. The Weimer mods add HOW many Rings of Protection+2?!?

Player decides to go to the Gnoll Stronghold early: Spear+1 in the cave in the Cloudpeaks, Halberd+1 on Gnoll Chieftain.
Player decides to stick to the Main Plot: Halberd+1 on Britik, Spear+1 in the Cloakwood Mines.

Where do you get a Spear and Halberd+1 in Firewine? Killing Poe might net you one, but the other?

I like the idea of Tamoko getting a Katana (if there's to be a Katana+2 in the game, she's the only one worthy of having it). It fits her background, her weapon choice in ToB, and the fact that she's a pureclass Cleric who casts Flame Arrow: A rulebreaker!

I still don't see why Beyn would have better Bracers than Davaeorn.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 06, 2007, 01:53:02 AM
Yeah, I suppose a Kara-Turan might join Candlekeep as a Monk, but it's not really likely. Remember that we're only a few years after the Tuigan Horde overran Faerun, they're not exactly welcome. Exceptions exist, of course.
I'm not an FR history buff.  And I'd rather not get into another discussion of "Why I don't read Cunningham, Salvatore, et al. (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=9244&view=findpost&p=78331)" :D  But if you are familiar with FR history, that's cool, maybe you can enlighten me.  So if some eastern horde just invaded, isn't it conceivable they could've left some weapons lying around (either their own or others they had contact with)?  I mean, wouldn't it be odd if they *didn't*?
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Why should Katanas, etc. be made of bronze or whatnot?
Well I've been doing a little research.  In our own world, Japanese longswords started out as straight (chokuto) with shorter broad swords and daggers, some with partial double edges (warabiti-tachi).  Bronze predates both of those, which would end up as different proficiencies anyway (kind of defeating this whole purpose).  So none of that is really an option.  There are some who think a katana is some sort of godlike sword (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=778717), that there were no substandard ones and they were all masterwork.  All of that is rubbish - poorer quality katanas were mass-produced for the run-of-the-mill infantry, just as better ones were made for daimyo lords and whatnot (also contrast Japanese Bizen katanas with Edo or Shinto work).  That doesn't means the poorer ones are complete crap, they're just not as high quality.

So there's that option.  Now I also considered the option that the katana (and other exotics) that might be available to you early might not be a katana at all, but some other sort of blade that would share the same proficiency.  In my same research, I came across several that would fit the bill, but one in particular, the Burmese dha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dha_%28sword%29):
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The dha, although superficially similar to the Japanese katana, lacks the quality of most Japanese weapons.
Fits our beginning 'shoddy' exotic to a T, doesn't it?  For an image, see here (http://www.tribaltrappings.com/ATW_2.html) - there is also a Yao hilltribe sword that could fit.  So our 'mystery monk' could be a wanderer from whatever the FR equivalent of Burma is, perhaps closer to the Sword Coast than the Japan equivalent (maybe Durpar, Estagund or Malatra - I'm sketchy here, so if anyone wants to shed some geographical light on the subject, please do ;)).  The Turkish yataghan might also fit the bill, somewhat smaller (perhaps more like a wakizashi) and curved but not as much as a scimitar, if you prefer our guest to be from Mulhorand or Murgom.  And if you're still like 'wtf would a Murgomi or Durpari be doing in Candlekeep?' well (aside from what I've sketched above) 'wtf would a Thayan be doing in Nashkel?'  Trying to kill someone who is Rashemeni? :D  The point is, the region isn't all that secluded and obviously gets a lot of traffic.

And you're not open to any of those suggestions... well *too bad*! :P  I'm making the component anyway and if you don't like it, don't install it. :P :P

(If you're interested, my research is largely from 'Swords of India and Southeast Asia' by Frederick Wilkinson, 'Japanese Swords' by Victor Harris and 'Swords of Islam' by Anthony North, in Swords and Hilt Weapons.  I also did some summary reading in the FR supplement Faiths and Avatars, on how commerce and various faiths can traverse continents on Toril.)
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Besides, why would anyone carry a crappy weapon all the way to the Sword Coast?
Why the heck not?  A simple pilgrim or monk would've carried whatever weapons he had, to protect him on the journey.  And he could've been quite good with the weapons (or he might not've survived the trip).  Like I said above, the weapons aren't complete rubbish necessarily, they're just not as high quality as others.  If he didn't have hundreds of GP to spend on new weapons, he probably didn't do so.  Moreover, the weapons could have ritual significance - perhaps handed down from ancestors.  Hence, they may be antique as opposed to 'modern' but still decent weapons.
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"Available" is not the same as "available immediately and for free." I did say that CHARNAME could have trained with a boken or even a curved stick, and there's a big difference between a Wakizashi that you can buy from Winthrop, and a Katana + Wakizashi that get dropped into your lap just for surviving a Level 1 Simpleton.
So you're saying the weapons should be available for purchase?  I appreciate your suggestions but I appreciate them more when there's less bandying about to figure out what the recommended approach should be. :P  Perhaps our mystery traveler sold them to Winthrop to get other weapons so he'd 'fit in' more?
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If you want to hide something, I can think of about a zillion better places to bury it than in a freshly-plowed field in rich farmland.
Discuss. :)  Though as I said above, inasmuch this is an easter egg in the original, I'd prefer not to muck about with it.  That and the fact that container removing/adding code is really messy, or extensive at any rate (ask Ascension64 :)).
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The fact that this isn't a BG2 mod is no reason not to mod an item that's currently only in BG1.
But you said the weapon in question was ok for BG1...
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My "What the heck were you thinking" was aimed at the mod's author(s), not Bursk or Ascension or whoever.  If people like CamDawg didn't do all the work of actually writing this stuff, there'd be nothing to offer feedback on at all.
Ok well we're talking about two different mods here - Cam was not involved in Lost Items (what the above refers to) either.  Exotic Items in BG2 Tweaks is his.  I'm not sure we know the Lost Items authors' whereabouts, so I guess we're considering the mod essentially GPL (and why we can debate all this with impunity :)).
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The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring: I consider it well outstripped by the Staff+3, Spider's Bane, and the SSoBackstabbing. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name. And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.
I'm confused... I thought you said this was ok for BG1, or are you talking about changing it for BG2 now? ???
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Player decides to go to the Gnoll Stronghold early: Spear+1 in the cave in the Cloudpeaks, Halberd+1 on Gnoll Chieftain.
Player decides to stick to the Main Plot: Halberd+1 on Britik, Spear+1 in the Cloakwood Mines.
Bleh.  Not sure if I want to (or *can*) code in logic that sophisticated, unless Ascension64 or Cam want to help ;).
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Where do you get a Spear and Halberd+1 in Firewine? Killing Poe might net you one, but the other?
Spear +1 on Poe, yes; my mistake on the halberd +1 - it is in Dryad Falls Cave (the area number is right next to Firewine Ruins).
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I still don't see why Beyn would have better Bracers than Davaeorn.
Balance, grasshopper.  Ice Island is later in the game (and only if you have TotSC) than Cloakwood.  The fact someone happens to have a better item than someone else doesn't mean they're more powerful or anything, any more than it does in real life. ;)

What are your current thoughts on how the mod will take shape?  I'm curious about the shoddy exotics you mention.  Please try to make sure that the alternate, nerfed version of the mods pleases Cam and his balance issues!
Well, that's what I'm trying to sort out! And satisfy your and SixOfSpades' suggestions. :P Pleasing Cam on the other hand, might be wholly out of the question :D.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: pro5 on February 06, 2007, 06:55:32 AM
There's a problem in this mod:
Code: [Select]
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.STO~ ~override/SWBAG19.STO~the bag of holding given to Davaeorn uses the contents of existing BAG19.STO which in unmodded TOB game is filled with following:

Arrows +2 x 40
Bolt +2 x 40
Potion of Extra Healing x 2
Haste Scroll
Flame Arrow Scroll
Stoneskin Scroll
Ghost Armor Scroll
Shadow Door Scroll
Chain Lightning Scroll
Breach Scroll
Dart +1 x 40
Short Sword +2
Long Sword +2
Bastard Sword +2
Two-Handed Sword +3
Dagger +2
Battle Axe +2
Spear +3
Halberd +3
Cleric's Staff +3
Morning Star +2
War Hammer +2
Mace +2
Long Bow +2
Short Bow +2
Light Crossbow +2
Sling +2
Leather Armor +3
Chain Mail +2
Plate Mail +1
Full Plate Mail +1
Helmet
Medium Shield +2
Boots of Speed
Adventurer's Robe
Small Shield +2
Bracers of Defense AC 7
Ring of Protection +1
Buckler +1
Katana +1
Bullet +2 x 40
Bullet x 40
Bolt x 40
Arrows x 40
Scimitar +1
Flail +2


 I think you might want to, errr... balance this a little. :P
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on February 06, 2007, 07:06:30 AM
The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring: I consider it well outstripped by the Staff+3, Spider's Bane, and the SSoBackstabbing. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name. And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.
Fair enough, and I think you've got a good idea of about where to keep the enchantments. I'd eschew the charisma bonus in favor of something else, though--with BG1 NPC adding a Ring of Human influence ( :( ) to the game, this would allow the PC to pump up their charisma to 22 (+ RoHI + Nymph Cloak + Helm of Glory). There are already enough charisma bump items. Toss in some random elemental immunity, perhaps, or a minor life drain a la Adjatha the Drinker.

I like the idea of Tamoko getting a Katana (if there's to be a Katana+2 in the game, she's the only one worthy of having it). It fits her background, her weapon choice in ToB, and the fact that she's a pureclass Cleric who casts Flame Arrow: A rulebreaker!
Originally, I wanted her to have the katana +1, mainly because it would taunt the observant player from the opening cutscene. But it works just as well (and legally) on one of her cohorts.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 06, 2007, 07:36:32 AM
There's a problem in this mod:
Code: [Select]
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.STO~ ~override/SWBAG19.STO~
That's messed up like a bad car accident.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Gorilym on February 06, 2007, 10:02:13 AM
...And it can hardly be considered overpowered, especially with only 3% of the game left in which to use it.
That would depend on when you go to Durlag's Tower - I usually go there right after killing Davaeorn, leaving the other expansion areas as well as the last three chapters for when the tower has been cleansed.

Ice Island is later in the game (and only if you have TotSC) than Cloakwood.
Not necessarily. After all, Ulgoth's Beard (and thus Ice Island) is accessible from the beginning of the game - the Cloakwood is not. Whether a low level party would actually survive a trip to I.I. is a different matter.

...with BG1 NPC adding a Ring of Human influence ( :( ) to the game...
I thought that had been removed sometime during the v12 beta 2 - beta 3 interval?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on February 06, 2007, 10:13:19 AM
I'm playing v12 beta 3, and th RoHI is still there.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Gorilym on February 06, 2007, 10:24:07 AM
Gah. The change must have been rolled back then - I remember distinctly that it wasn't there in my most recent run, with an internal version of v12 b3 installed. That ring REALLY needs to go.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 06, 2007, 11:11:02 PM
I'm not an FR history buff.  And I'd rather not get into another discussion of "Why I don't read Cunningham, Salvatore, et al." :D  But if you are familiar with FR history, that's cool, maybe you can enlighten me.  So if some eastern horde just invaded, isn't it conceivable they could've left some weapons lying around (either their own or others they had contact with)?  I mean, wouldn't it be odd if they *didn't*?
I found an online "Roll of Years" somewhere once, and naturally I have since lost the URL. I was Googling Alaundo's prophecies at the time, as I recall. But no, my point was to wonder why anyone would have gone to such great lengths to carry a shoddy weapon across two continents. There would naturally have been plenty of Kara-Turan weapons left at the site of each major battle--but these would likely have been used as improvised farm implements, or forged into other tools, or whatnot, because the Faerunian survivors would have preferred their own, familiar blades. Note that this is what would happen to the poor-quality Katanas. The stronger and fancier ones would have been kept as souveneirs or relics, or (rarely) taken up by some open-minded Faerunian warrior. (Valygar's katana is somewhat different, as it's an heirloom and therefore predates the Tuigan invasion. But as he's the only black NPC in all of SoA, it's quite likely that the Corthala family emigrated from a region much closer to Kara-Tur.) And that's why I see little reason to leave "substandard" Oriental blades lying about. True, these less spiffy weapons could have ritual or family significance to those who brought them to the Sword Coast, but that's not the kind of thing that gives them value in other peoples' eyes.

As to the possibility of a Kara-Turan monk being among the scholars of Candlekeep, it's quite plausible to say that he/she entered the cloister well before the Tuigan invasion had even begun, and thus had practically no stigma at all. Of course, it would have been nice if BioWare had included a Monk, or even just a Watcher, with even just the slightest bit of Oriental flavor at all, but we can hardly blame them for that, as all of BG2 was just a glint in their eye at that point.

Quote
Perhaps our mystery traveler sold them to Winthrop to get other weapons so he'd 'fit in' more?
That's pretty much exactly what I suggested in my original post, the hired sword-arm who sells his spare blade for walking-around money, or for gifts to try to woo Phlydia, or to purchase trinkets that he could then turn around & sell at a profit when he got home. Either way, it forces CHARNAME to sacrifice something if he wants to use (let's face it) an out-of-character weapon proficiency right from Day 1. Purchasing a Wakizashi with the limited means available means giving up the Dagger+1 (if you can get it), or the Splint Mail, or perhaps the entire stock of Healing Potions available to you, or it forces you to go to extremes and steal the Diamond. Any one of those is better than the current setup of the mod: I will always oppose anything that tends toward "Obviously the Best Weapon to Use," and therefore I will never support just sticking a Katana in a random box at the very start of the game.

Quote
But you said the weapon in question was ok for BG1...
Okay, what I meant was "At least there's no reason to laugh at it in BG1." But in retrospect, how the heck could this sword have ever gotten a name or reputation so grandiose when there are +4s and +5s wandering around just south of the Cloudpeaks? Besides, if a weapon is to truly be interesting or appealing, it simply must have auxiliary enchantments. I mean, seriously. Raise your hand if you have ever purchased Warblade.

Quote
I'm confused... I thought you said this [changes to World's Edge] was ok for BG1, or are you talking about changing it for BG2 now?
The changes I suggested (or, indeed, any number of similar improvements) would work for both games: Make the World's Edge worthy of its inflated status in BG1 (maybe even making it worth the trouble of going & getting it), and make it so it won't be completely outclassed if somebody should mod it into BG2. The latter is not really our concern, but the former is.

Quote
Quote
Player decides to go to the Gnoll Stronghold early: Spear+1 in the cave in the Cloudpeaks, Halberd+1 on Gnoll Chieftain.
Player decides to stick to the Main Plot: Halberd+1 on Britik, Spear+1 in the Cloakwood Mines.
Bleh.  Not sure if I want to (or *can*) code in logic that sophisticated, unless Ascension64 or Cam want to help.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't implying any "IF MinscQuestAccepted OR EdwinQuestAccepted, THEN create SPER08.ITM on GNO1234.CRE" or anything like that. I was just expressing my satisfaction that whichever major course the player decides to take in early Chapter 3, they will soon have access to both types of enchanted polearms. (And I believe there's another Halberd in the Ulcaster dungeon, too.) Speaking of which, I'd like to urge that there should be at least one additional Axe+1 floating around in the early game; it doesn't really matter where. It just sucks that there's only ONE enchanted Axe in the entire first 4 chapters of the game, you have to buy it at the store with (I think) the most exorbitant prices in the game, and if you want an Axe+2, you either have to know just how to make it available, or wait until Chapter 6.


The World's Edge is far from awe-inspiring. Have it grant +1 to Charisma and a 5% chance per hit of the victim fleeing in Panic, and then you have some unique enchantments to justify the unique name.
I'd eschew the charisma bonus in favor of something else, though . . . There are already enough charisma bump items. Toss in some random elemental immunity, perhaps, or a minor life drain a la Adjatha the Drinker.
Yeah, I was just tossing out something that seemed fairly in-character for the weapon. Ideally, the enchantment should have something to do with the alleged extraplanar origin of the blade . . . like creating a small dimensional tear in the flesh of the victim, for additional Bleeding damage or something like that.

Quote
Originally, I wanted her [Tamoko] to have the katana +1, mainly because it would taunt the observant player from the opening cutscene. But it works just as well (and legally) on one of her cohorts.
I'm not really concerned about Clerics not legally being allowed to wield bloodletting weapons, particularly as this is a Kara-Turan god we're talking about her serving. Besides, BioWare had all the time in the world to think about what kind of gear to give her in ToB, and they saw fit to have her dual-wield a Katana & Wakizashi.
[ADD] Oh, and Haseo isn't one of Tamoko's cronies. She's there to protect Sarevok from those seeking revenge--mainly, CHARNAME--while the Iron Thronies are there to kill Sarevok for destrying their reputation.


That would depend on when you go to Durlag's Tower - I usually go there right after killing Davaeorn, leaving the other expansion areas as well as the last three chapters for when the tower has been cleansed.
Really? I tend to leave most non-Main-Plot areas for right after the beginning of Chapter 7, so I can stomp through them quickly and then go pull some smackdown in the Duchal Palace. But, in general, I believe that most people don't go to Durlag's until they've sampled at least a few of the tastier morsels in BG City.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 07, 2007, 04:16:06 AM
I found an online "Roll of Years" somewhere once, and naturally I have since lost the URL.
There's a timeline of Faerun on Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Faerūn:_Present) (of course).  It looks like that Tuigan invasion happened about eight years before BG1, and got as far as at least Rashemen before it was stopped by an alliance largely from Waterdeep and Tethyr.

The Tuigans were not Kara-Turans of course - I get the feeling of more of a Mongol (a la Genghis Khan) horde, but they had invaded Kara-Tur the previous year.  In any case they'd have exotic weapons of some sort, and probably quite a few Kara-Turan weapons.  And the invasion may not have gone as far as the BG region, but it's certainly plausible there would've been enough trade in 'souvenirs' as you say, to satisfy any screams of 'NOO!  Katanas and wakizashis are ultra ultra rare on the Sword Coast!"  Bleh. :P

Having said all that, I'm leaning toward our mystery monk being from Estagund.  It's close enough to the Sword Coast where he could've conceivably joined a caravan to BG or Athkatla as a guard, and decided to seek enlightenment at Candlekeep afterwards.  And the description (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fr/20010509b) fits in pretty well:
Quote
Estagund: "Durpar, but with warriors exalted over merchants. Noble slayers, but slayers nonetheless -- and dangerous because of their honor and discipline. This is where the Durpari get their guards. Wealthy but with more places to ride hard, more walls for defending, and fewer gardens. They love beautiful weapons, and buy and sell such things as eagerly as children devour candy..." (It is modeled after an Indian culture mindset.)
So I'm thinking this guy has some decent weapons from his homeland, nothing fancy, pretty commonplace to him, but decides he really wants to swap out for these fancy, exotic (to him) long swords and whatnot.  Maybe he's an outcast Marquar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84356.jpg) crusader (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige2.pl?Maquar_Crusader) (dunno if I want to run with that though).  He's also a bit of a scholar and has a book or two from his homeland (which could've explained any entry requirements - again, what may be common to him might be considered rare to Sword Coasters).  And my work is already cut out because there is a 'History of Estagund' already in the Candlekeep Library.  Where did they get it?  Ok, maybe it's not all that rare, but still. :P  It also seems a bit absurd the only 'exotic' weapons are Kara-Turan.  Have you *seen* a map (http://koti.mbnet.fi/~cerberus/kuvat/forgotten%20realms%20map%20full.jpg) of Faerun?  Place is huge, and there are a lot closer 'exotic' places to the Sword Coast than Kara-Tur.

Rather than just stick his weapons on Winthrop, I might even introduce the Estagundan himself as a CRE, give him some dialog and make him a store so's CHARNAME can buy his weapons (if the PC isn't too insulting), if I'm feeling crazy. ;)  So I'm thinking he might have a dha (http://www.antiques-arms.com/catalog/popup_add_image.php?imagesID=4903), a shamshir (http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/20/002220/ph-0.jpg) and a kastane (http://www.ashokaarts.com/edgedweapons/ewsold/ew-kastane2.jpg), in lieu of a katana, a wakizashi and a ninja-to.  They'd be either -1 dmg (so 0-9 for the dha) or slower than their counterparts, or both.

I promise I won't give him the voice of Apu (http://animatedtv.about.com/od/apu/p/apuprofile.htm) from the Simpsons.

I don't want to get too carried away but what if, 'and believe me this is hypothetical' (says in his best Bob Slydell (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/quotes) voice) I was to introduce shuriken (throwing stars) as rarities?  Which proficiency should they be (without inventing a new one of course) - throwing axe, dagger, maybe dart?  Any thoughts on damage or placement?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Guest on February 07, 2007, 10:07:14 AM
If you are going to introduce completely new weapons, won't that hurt the continuity between BG1 and BG2?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 07, 2007, 10:15:54 AM
I doubt it.  The items are rare, after all.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 07, 2007, 11:46:22 PM
The Monk/Watcher/traveler being from Estagund sounds quite solid--but frankly, the part about him being a Murquar crusader sounds less like you're rationalizing the presence of Kara-Turan steel in Candlekeep, and more like you're designing a recruitable NPC--which might not be a bad idea, really.

A wider array of interesting weapon types never hurts, and AoE has already made a pretty good start, what with its Bolas, Katars and Throwing Spears. I too have some weapons to add (Shuriken=Dart, Nunchaku=Flail, War Pick=Warhammer, Glaive/Billhook/Partisan/Naginata=Halberd, etc), but the thing is, that doesn't seem to be this mod's intention. It appears that its only goal was to disperse some BG2 items throughout BG1, not create entirely new weapons imported from locales foreign to the Sword Coast. Besides, many of the weapon types you mention might well already exist: Take a look at the weird-ass shapes of the unique weapons already in BG2. Compare the Equalizer with Dragonslayer with the Drow Longsword--they're just as different as the various bladed weapons developed by Earth's cultures, but they're still grouped as "Long Swords." So go ahead, develop your Kukri with my blessing, but players are just going to see it as simply another Sword Sword with a funky shape to it.

Not all the "exotic" weapons in the game are Kara-Turan in origin--Scimitars are most likely considered exotic, what with their association with Calimshan, and especially with Djinni and Rakshasa (whose swords are curved while they're alive, and straighten when they're killed--go figure).
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 08, 2007, 04:26:40 AM
The Monk/Watcher/traveler being from Estagund sounds quite solid--but frankly, the part about him being a Murquar crusader sounds less like you're rationalizing the presence of Kara-Turan steel in Candlekeep, and more like you're designing a recruitable NPC--which might not be a bad idea, really.
Hmm.  I dunno how far I'd want to take that at this point.  It takes longer than one day to design a real NPC. :D  I was vaguely considering him leaving Candlekeep after you talk to him and reappearing somewhere else later (maybe BG) as part of his story or something.
Quote
It appears that its only goal was to disperse some BG2 items throughout BG1, not create entirely new weapons imported from locales foreign to the Sword Coast.
Yeah, that's one reason I said the shuriken thing was hypothetical.  I have a number of other weapons of my own I'd also like to add that aren't that exotic (rapiers, sabres, swordbreakers, whips, etc.).  I've already designed a blackjack (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=8199&view=findpost&p=72403) for a potential Thievery mod.  I could give the Estagundan a tulwar or falchion also, but I dunno if I want to make him a full-fledged arms dealer.
Quote
Besides, many of the weapon types you mention might well already exist: Take a look at the weird-ass shapes of the unique weapons already in BG2. Compare the Equalizer with Dragonslayer with the Drow Longsword--they're just as different as the various bladed weapons developed by Earth's cultures, but they're still grouped as "Long Swords."
Yeah, but most of them are more 'exotic' in a fantastic (e.g. dragon hilts, clawed crossguards) sense rather than a cultural one.  Or they're just souped-up scimitars or katanas.  Besides, these ones are normal weapons, not magical weapons, and it's the proficiencies that count in this case (really the only purpose for these particular weapons, but they also give a bit of flavour I guess).
Quote
...Rakshasa (whose swords are curved while they're alive, and straighten when they're killed--go figure).
Heh.  What's up with that?  Oh by the way, did anyone ever figure out what an ashirukuru or whatever is?  Some sort of shade or spectre or something?  I tried poking around a bit but stuff like this (http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=10901) isn't helping much.  Oh well.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on February 08, 2007, 05:40:32 AM
Sounds like the remake has taken on a life of its own!  Neato!

Tell me, Miloch, if these weapons do use existing proficiencies, will you be able to take into account the fact that some people e.g. Bursk, are using 'Rebalanced Weapon Profs'?  I mean, will the description of your weapons and the proficiencies they use be wrong when using 'Rebalanced Weapon Profs'?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 08, 2007, 08:09:11 AM
From what I understand of the Rebalanced Proficiencies code (or the explanation (http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?s=626267e06ee238e654342690b3539436&showtopic=23380&view=findpost&p=273658) of it by way of Cam and the bigg), it goes through and replaces all descriptions and actual proficiencies accordingly.  So it should work on these weapons, as long as I don't do something boneheaded like call it a 'wakazashi' instead of a wakizashi :o.  Though it should still modify the proficiencies correctly.  This should also hold true if you want to revert to BG1-style proficiencies (they'll just become short or long swords).

Of course, all of that depends on the assumption you're installing Tweaks after this mod (which is the recommended order (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=8122) anyway). :)
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on February 08, 2007, 09:17:21 AM
Cool.  I look forward to using my new wakazashi and katona weapons.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 14, 2007, 09:45:48 PM
Quote
//REPLACE_CRE_ITEM ~BLUN13~ #0 #0 #0 ~NONE~ ~WEAPON1~ EQUIP //was _HAMM01 redundant
@Ascension64 - what exactly does "was ... redundant" mean in your comments?  I'm looking at Beyn in stock EasyTutu and the only real item he has is a wand - no hammer, bracer or daggers.  Maybe you had some other mod at the time that gave him other items?

Also, why is this mod copying bags as both items and stores to the SW namespace without making any changes?  Can't we just refer to bag##.itm?

In other news, I think I've reimplemented the ammo stacking using an include (by cannibalising code from Tweaks and MixMod :D) so you can set it to 50, 60, 80, 100 or 200 for all ammo available at the time of mod install.  This is different from the percentage changes in MixMod since these are hard numbers.  And if you want unlimited ammo then install Tweaks you filthy cheater :P.  Personally carrying around a hundred or more arrows without encumbrance is pushing the bounds of pseudo-reality for me, but the options are there.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on February 15, 2007, 12:42:32 AM
Um, these were checked against Tutu v6b, which probably isn't the best choice I made to compare.

For the bags, you must copy the store, otherwise two bags will use the same store. It would make for some interesting "bag"-lifting.  ;)

Otherwise, further developent of Lost Items is now Miloch's property, not mine, so you can send all your hate-mail to him.  :D *j/k*
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 15, 2007, 08:48:00 AM
Um, these were checked against Tutu v6b...
Okaaayyyy.... dunno why Tutu v6 would've added items to CREs but anything is possible I guess (you sure it isn't BG1UB?).  Anyway, what's the 'redundant' mean?  You have it on the Bishop too, who has no eq, and usually you don't put comments if you're replacing nothing (or sometimes you do '//was none' but I've never seen '//was redundant').

Regarding the standard BG2 katana and ninja-to... won't they be unbreakable by default unless the breakage effect is specifically applied to them?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 15, 2007, 12:31:46 PM
For the bags, you must copy the store, otherwise two bags will use the same store.
Alright, I'm thoroughly confused by this bag business (see what happens when you get me modding).  This is what is was in the code - I've only added the comments:
Code: [Select]
//Items
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG03.ITM~ //Scroll Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG19.ITM~ //Bag of Holding - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG02.ITM~ //Gem Bag
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG03B.ITM~ //Scroll Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG06.ITM~ //Potion Case - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG02B.ITM~ //Gem Bag
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG03C.ITM~ //Scroll Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG02C.ITM~ //Gem Bag
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG06B.ITM~ //Potion Case - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG05.ITM~ //Ammo Belt - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG05B.ITM~ //Ammo Belt - read error
//Stores
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.STO~ ~override/SWBAG03.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.STO~ ~override/SWBAG19.STO~ //Bag of Holding full of items - clone BAG31.STO instead
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.STO~ ~override/SWBAG02.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.STO~ ~override/SWBAG03B.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.STO~ ~override/SWBAG06.STO~ //Potion Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.STO~ ~override/SWBAG02B.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.STO~ ~override/SWBAG03C.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.STO~ ~override/SWBAG02C.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.STO~ ~override/SWBAG06B.STO~ //Potion Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.STO~ ~override/SWBAG05.STO~ //Ammo Belt
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.STO~ ~override/SWBAG05B.STO~ //Ammo Belt
Now, oddly, DLTCEP gives me a 'cannot read file' error for those items where the store *does* exist, but not for those items without a store of the same name (NI seems to be ok with either, so maybe it's a DLTCEP bug).  The bags that don't exist are present in BG2 but not EasyTutu.  I guess (???) they all work to some extent anyhow, or maybe there are subtle differences between the types of bags.  Do they really all need stores?  Some apparently aren't getting them, or maybe they're getting null stores from a nonexistent copied file - see below also.

  • Thunderhammer Smithy sells a Case of Plenty +0
  • Nashkel General Store sells a Bag of Plenty +0
  • One of the Nashkel Carnival tent stores sells a Quiver of Plenty +0
The case (cdplcase) is coded as a bolt, the bag (cdplbag) as a bullet and the quiver (cdplquiv) as an arrow, as opposed to bags (0x24).  None of them have associated stores as far as I can tell.  Is this intentional?  How are they coded to be containers then?

Quote
  • Haseo has a katana +1 (group with Tamoko right outside of Sarevok and the final battle)
  • Krumm has a cursed katana +2 (one of the dolts bothering the dryad and her tree in the Cloudpeaks)
Yeah... if a -1 WIS modifier is your idea of 'cursed'.  Most warrior classes wouldn't give a fried gibberling bollock about that (and I'm fairly certain Krumm wouldn't :D).  No offense, but this seems kind of ass-backwards to me - Krumm should have -maybe- a katana +1 (and more likely just a normal one, if that) and Haseo should get the so-called 'cursed' katana +2.

Also I'm assuming you wrote all that complex patching code before the advent of ADD/REPLACE_CRE/STORE_ITEM, or you're just being intentionally overcomplicated. :P
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on February 15, 2007, 07:23:29 PM
Um, these were checked against Tutu v6b...
Okaaayyyy.... dunno why Tutu v6 would've added items to CREs but anything is possible I guess (you sure it isn't BG1UB?).  Anyway, what's the 'redundant' mean?  You have it on the Bishop too, who has no eq, and usually you don't put comments if you're replacing nothing (or sometimes you do '//was none' but I've never seen '//was redundant').

Regarding the standard BG2 katana and ninja-to... won't they be unbreakable by default unless the breakage effect is specifically applied to them?
//was redundant simply means that the item entry was in the CRE, but it was never placed anywhere in that NPC's inventory/equip slots. Hence, replacing those items wouldn't change anything.

For katana and ninja-to, you are probably right, but perhaps Aramis/Vedran thought differently. In other words, I think it might be safe just to use the standard weapons, but just make sure they don't shatter (unless you decide otherwise).
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on February 15, 2007, 07:29:40 PM
Quote
For the bags, you must copy the store, otherwise two bags will use the same store.
Alright, I'm thoroughly confused by this bag business (see what happens when you get me modding).  This is what is was in the code - I've only added the comments:
Code: [Select]
//Items
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG03.ITM~ //Scroll Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG19.ITM~ //Bag of Holding - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG02.ITM~ //Gem Bag
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG03B.ITM~ //Scroll Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG06.ITM~ //Potion Case - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG02B.ITM~ //Gem Bag
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG03C.ITM~ //Scroll Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG02C.ITM~ //Gem Bag
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG06B.ITM~ //Potion Case - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG05.ITM~ //Ammo Belt - read error
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.ITM~ ~override/SWBAG05B.ITM~ //Ammo Belt - read error
//Stores
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.STO~ ~override/SWBAG03.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG19.STO~ ~override/SWBAG19.STO~ //Bag of Holding full of items - clone BAG31.STO instead
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.STO~ ~override/SWBAG02.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.STO~ ~override/SWBAG03B.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.STO~ ~override/SWBAG06.STO~ //Potion Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.STO~ ~override/SWBAG02B.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG03.STO~ ~override/SWBAG03C.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG02.STO~ ~override/SWBAG02C.STO~ //doesn't exist
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG06.STO~ ~override/SWBAG06B.STO~ //Potion Case
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.STO~ ~override/SWBAG05.STO~ //Ammo Belt
COPY_EXISTING ~BAG05.STO~ ~override/SWBAG05B.STO~ //Ammo Belt
Now, oddly, DLTCEP gives me a 'cannot read file' error for those items where the store *does* exist, but not for those items without a store of the same name (NI seems to be ok with either, so maybe it's a DLTCEP bug).  The bags that don't exist are present in BG2 but not EasyTutu.  I guess (???) they all work to some extent anyhow, or maybe there are subtle differences between the types of bags.  Do they really all need stores?  Some apparently aren't getting them, or maybe they're getting null stores from a nonexistent copied file - see below also.
It might be DLTCEP, I use NI almost exclusively. The only way to find out for real is to CLUAConsole:CreateItem() them in-game. If the bags don't exist in EasyTutu, you'll have to install them manually (i.e. export the STO from a BG2 install, put them in the Lost Items directory, then COPY those bags over).

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Also I'm assuming you wrote all that complex patching code before the advent of ADD/REPLACE_CRE/STORE_ITEM, or you're just being intentionally overcomplicated. :P
Errm, which? I know there are a few ADD_ARE_ITEM equivalents in the code, but I don't have the .tp2 to look at at the moment.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 15, 2007, 07:57:34 PM
It might be DLTCEP, I use NI almost exclusively.
As it turns out, it was DLTCEP or perhaps user error.  The 'BG1 style dialogs (no freezing dialog type flag)' - whatever that means - should not be set for Tutu.
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The only way to find out for real is to CLUAConsole:CreateItem() them in-game.
Whoa, wait a second.  That would imply I'd have to actually (gulp) *test* something, a procedure I'm firmly against and totally unfamiliar with. :D
Quote
If the bags don't exist in EasyTutu, you'll have to install them manually (i.e. export the STO from a BG2 install, put them in the Lost Items directory, then COPY those bags over).
I just copied other bags that *are* present in EasyTutu.  I'm not sure why E22 would've dropped BG2 resources - I thought it only dropped unused BG1 resources.
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Also I'm assuming you wrote all that complex patching code before the advent of ADD/REPLACE_CRE/STORE_ITEM, or you're just being intentionally overcomplicated. :P
Errm, which? I know there are a few ADD_ARE_ITEM equivalents in the code, but I don't have the .tp2 to look at at the moment.
Sorry, that last was directed at Cam's Exotic Items.  And I guess it was sort of rhetorical, though the other questions weren't.
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//was redundant simply means that the item entry was in the CRE, but it was never placed anywhere in that NPC's inventory/equip slots.
Where/how are you seeing these (Tutu/BGT or the Lost Items v1 CREs)?  I'm not getting how you view items on a CRE not assigned to a slot... ???
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 16, 2007, 08:42:43 AM
The case (cdplcase) is coded as a bolt, the bag (cdplbag) as a bullet and the quiver (cdplquiv) as an arrow, as opposed to bags (0x24).  None of them have associated stores as far as I can tell.  Is this intentional?  How are they coded to be containers then?
Quivers of Plenty and the like are not Containers--they are ammunition. You do not open them and store arrows inside, you simply stick them in your Ammo slot and forget about them.

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Krumm should have -maybe- a katana +1 (and more likely just a normal one, if that) and Haseo should get the so-called 'cursed' katana +2.
No way should Krumm or Caldo get a Katana--those dolts wouldn't even know which end to hold. Besides, the Girdle + Potions + Rep boost is more than enough loot from a fight that easy. Consider giving the Katana+1 to the Ogre-Mage in either the Firewine dungeon or the Cloakwood Mines, since there's strong suggestions that the Bastard Swords all Ogre-Magi carry were pretty much meant to be Katanas anyway.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on February 16, 2007, 09:22:09 AM
Quote
  • Haseo has a katana +1 (group with Tamoko right outside of Sarevok and the final battle)
  • Krumm has a cursed katana +2 (one of the dolts bothering the dryad and her tree in the Cloudpeaks)
Yeah... if a -1 WIS modifier is your idea of 'cursed'.  Most warrior classes wouldn't give a fried gibberling bollock about that (and I'm fairly certain Krumm wouldn't :D).  No offense, but this seems kind of ass-backwards to me - Krumm should have -maybe- a katana +1 (and more likely just a normal one, if that) and Haseo should get the so-called 'cursed' katana +2.
You may want to look again. A greater than 1-in-3 chance of losing one attribute point permanently (any of them, not just wisdom) permanently, every time it's used, seems fairly cursed.

Also I'm assuming you wrote all that complex patching code before the advent of ADD/REPLACE_CRE/STORE_ITEM, or you're just being intentionally overcomplicated. :P
Yes.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 16, 2007, 11:13:57 AM
Quivers of Plenty and the like are not Containers--they are ammunition. You do not open them and store arrows inside, you simply stick them in your Ammo slot and forget about them.
Hmm ok.  Not sure how I feel about those being available so early, but I guess it's a convenience tweak.
You may want to look again. A greater than 1-in-3 chance of losing one attribute point permanently (any of them, not just wisdom) permanently, every time it's used, seems fairly cursed.
Ah.  Yes that's fairly messed up... possibly *too* cursed for the unwitting Tweaks user, but whatever.
No way should Krumm or Caldo get a Katana--those dolts wouldn't even know which end to hold.
Quite right, Krumm doesn't have proficiency in any swords that I can see, being as how the cursed katana is replacing a blunt.  And the fight is easy, as you say.  I would suggest giving Krumm at least 1 star in Large swords (and perhaps more) if you're replacing his club with a blade.  And as a player, I'd also be asking "Where did he get this thing?"  I doubt those two could've overpowered a samurai (as the description sort of suggests), though who knows, maybe Krumm got suckered into it on the Kara-Tur arms-trading black market or something...
Consider giving the Katana+1 to the Ogre-Mage in either the Firewine dungeon or the Cloakwood Mines, since there's strong suggestions that the Bastard Swords all Ogre-Magi carry were pretty much meant to be Katanas anyway.
Would you really want a katana +1 that early (well midgame, really) being as how Cam seems to have it on Haseo as sort of a 'final prize'?  Not that you'd get a chance to use the latter that much.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on February 16, 2007, 01:50:20 PM
You may want to look again. A greater than 1-in-3 chance of losing one attribute point permanently (any of them, not just wisdom) permanently, every time it's used, seems fairly cursed.
Ah.  Yes that's fairly messed up... possibly *too* cursed for the unwitting Tweaks user, but whatever.
If it wasn't right there in the description, maybe.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 16, 2007, 03:09:12 PM
Well, it doesn't actually say it's cursed, even upon identification, like for example the Cursed Berserking sword does.  It merely implies a wielder who doesn't respect Kara-Turan customs might experience bad luck.  How do you know the PC (particularly one who managed to become proficient in such weapons somehow) does not show that respect?

But I guess being more obvious would take all the fun out of playing a nasty joke on the players. :P  Anyway, I don't really care about that - I'm more concerned about the (lack of) proficiency and the question of how Krumm got it.  Either he hasn't had it long, or he's been exceptionally lucky with it not affecting his STR of 18/32.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: CamDawg on February 16, 2007, 03:27:07 PM
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As a result, this cursed blade has a chance to drain the wielder every time it is used.
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Chance to permanently drain life or attributes from wielder when used
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 16, 2007, 03:46:28 PM
Ok, fair enough... was reading the wrong desc. :P  So how did a Sword Coast low-life like Krumm end up with 'the Coveted Blade... forged in the nation of Wa more than five centuries ago...'?  I'm not saying it's not possible, it just could use fleshing out a bit, story-wise.  If you're not interested in doing something like that in Tweaks (which I can understand I guess) then nevermind - I'll stop wasting your time.  I still think a proficiency reassignment shouldn't be out of the question though.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 16, 2007, 11:57:33 PM
Hmm ok.  Not sure how I feel about those [Ammo of Plenty] being available so early, but I guess it's a convenience tweak.
Just so. Since the ammo isn't enchanted, it's no different than renting a mule to help carry the hundreds of arrows you need (okay, I need) to get through the Cloakwood in one trip. If BioWare had tweaked the Travel Times so that a journey to the Mines & back took less than a week, or flagged the Wyvern ambush so that it only happens once or twice per game, I could see clearing the Cloakwood in stages. As it is, I demand that it be scoured clean in one fell swoop, and that means Tons O' Ammo.

Besides, nobody in the game uses Slings or Crossbows, so if any of my characters wants to (or has to) use anything but a Bow, they've got to fill their backpacks with ammo every time we leave town.

You may want to look again. A greater than 1-in-3 chance of losing one attribute point permanently (any of them, not just wisdom) permanently, every time it's used, seems fairly cursed.
Holy crap. Who designed this? Have they no idea of the power level of BG1? Hell, this would be overpowered even in ToB.

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Would you really want a katana +1 that early [Cloakwood Mies or Firewine] being as how Cam seems to have it on Haseo as sort of a 'final prize'?
In general, +2 versions should be gained only after completing difficult quests/battles, spending a great deal of money, or simply playing the game for a good long amount of time. But +1 versions are a different matter: First off, it's essential that your Tank has a weapon that won't snap at the worst possible moment. Kara-Turan weapons are exempt from this, but you still need magical weapons in order to not be stopped dead by things like Vampiric Wolves, Mustard Jellies, Flesh Golems, and the like. So I support scattering +1 copies of every weapon type in the game randomly around Chapters 1-3. And in accordance with the rarity of the imported Oriental weapons, finding a Katana+1 in Chapter 4 seems about right. And while I'm on the subject, let's not forget CLUBS! There's not so much as a single Club+1 in all of unmodded BG1, and one must install ToSC and go all the way to bloody Werewolf Island just to get a decent weapon for their Cleric/Thief. UB adds the Root of the Problem, but I'd still like to see a Club+1 somewhere . . . the Song of the Morning Temple might sell it, perhaps.

But yeah, Ogre-Magi. The more I think about this, the more I think I'd like to see a Katana or Wakizashi on every Ogre-Mage, most of them unenchanted of course. The one in the Cloakwood Mines and the "leader" of the 5 in that house in BG would each have +1 versions. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 17, 2007, 12:03:06 PM
But yeah, Ogre-Magi. The more I think about this, the more I think I'd like to see a Katana or Wakizashi on every Ogre-Mage, most of them unenchanted of course. The one in the Cloakwood Mines and the "leader" of the 5 in that house in BG would each have +1 versions. Thoughts?
This is from the 2nd Ed. MM:
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Ogre magi are taller and more intelligent than their cousins and they dress in oriental clothing and armor... In battle, ogre magi prefer the naginata (75%) or scimitar and whip (25%).
I guess if we're aiming for canon authenticity, I could introduce a naginata and perhaps a whip here and disburse them on the ogre magi accordingly.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 17, 2007, 11:11:46 PM
I was aiming more for consistency with the Ogre-Mage sprite ingame, rather than canon equipment.
Well, Naginata = Halberd easily enough, but Whips are so different from every other type of weapon that they demand their own proficiency. . . which there isn't room for. Yeah, I'd like to see Chain-based and Rope-based weapons have their own proficiency, but I'm pretty sure the game won't support it.

Besides, then you run into characters that have "Grandmastery in Kinky," and claiming that Viconia should have at least 2 stars in it.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Ascension64 on February 19, 2007, 05:28:01 AM
Miloch, if you have any more questions about the coding or my comments, PM me somewhere. This thread is getting a bit too busy for me to check often.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 19, 2007, 05:15:52 PM
@Ascension64: Been doing that on SHS (and you've been responding there).  Just using the thread now to get user feedback.  So feel free to ignore it.  I know how busy you are with Mequel and the like. ;)

@SixOfSpades: Those comments about whips and Viconia got me thinking.  No, not like that (well if it did I'd keep those thoughts to myself anyway :D).  Is it really necessary to have a whip proficiency, being as how it only does like 1d2 damage (according to 2e Arms & Equipment)?  Still, it might be an interesting addition (if not to this mod, then another) since you could give it a chance to entangle the victim (and probably lose or disable your whip in the process).  Also, there are unused proficiencies in the game, but like you, I don't know if you can take advantage of those - certainly not during PC creation or leveling anyway.  Maybe it's possible to augment them via script or spell, I dunno.  But a flail is a chain weapon after all, so it wouldn't be too dissimilar from that proficiency.  Not exact matches, but same ballpark anyway.  Or maybe the same sport at least.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 21, 2007, 07:42:43 PM
Is it really necessary to have a whip proficiency, being as how it only does like 1d2 damage (according to 2e Arms & Equipment)?  Still, it might be an interesting addition (if not to this mod, then another) since you could give it a chance to entangle the victim (and probably lose or disable your whip in the process).  But a flail is a chain weapon after all, so it wouldn't be too dissimilar from that proficiency.  Not exact matches, but same ballpark anyway.  Or maybe the same sport at least.
It's not really what it's made from that concerns me, but how it's used. A hypothetical two-handed Footman's Flail and Nunchaku would belong in the Flail proficiency, as they're all swung in pretty much the same ways, but compare them to a six-foot-long chain with an iron weight at one end and a sickle at the other. I think Ashes of Embers was right to group the Bola in with the Sling proficiency, as it's a weighted cord you spin around over your head, but trying to sneak a Lasso or Whip in there would be asking too much.

But then again, it's not like the existing setup is anything like perfect either. Important safety tip for your travels through Amn: Carry a bunch of spearheads with you. That way, if you get attacked by some guy who's just insanely good with his Quarterstaff, just slip a spearhead onto the end of it! He suddenly won't know how to use it any more, and he might even be forced to drop his weapon altogether and flee for the hills!
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 23, 2007, 05:48:40 PM
A hypothetical two-handed Footman's Flail and Nunchaku would belong in the Flail proficiency, as they're all swung in pretty much the same ways, but compare them to a six-foot-long chain with an iron weight at one end and a sickle at the other.
What kind of weapon is *that*?  I was talking about a standard whip, which is similarly wielded (superficially perhaps) to a flail.  More so than nunchaku anyway.

I'm trying to reconcile these suggestions:
Nimbul - Swap Short Sword +1 with normal Wakizashi...
My idea of distribution would be as follows:
Ninja-to -- dropped by Nimbul...
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Nimbul (a hostile encounter at Nashkel)
Replaced Short Sword +1 with Scimitar +1
Added Gem Bag, Scroll Case
The change to Scimitar is good (since the party just got a SS+1 from Mulahey)...
Personally, I don't care much.  There's not a huge difference between the three (though as I said before, the scimitar +1 is probably a better weapon).  Leaning toward Bursk's wakizashi.  Technically it's considered a short sword in BG1 whereas the other two are "large swords" (I'm just stating how they're coded, not saying I agree):
Ninja-To: 1d8, Speed 4
Wakizashi: 1d8, Speed 3
Scimitar +1: 1d8+1, Speed 4

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Vax (a bandit south of Nashkel)
Replaced Halberd with Wazikashi +1
Added Ninja-To +1, 2 Ammo Belts, Poisoned Throwing Dagger
I would lose all of that except for 1 Ammo Belt--and it goes on Zal, not Vax. And Darts and Throwing Daggers use different proficiencies.
You lost me on that last bit.  Vax has no darts (or ranged weapon of any sort).  Zal does, but already has missile proficiency (not daggers). So apart from the ammo belt on Zal, what are you suggesting?

As far as Beyn, I was thinking of just giving him the AC7 bracers and hiking up his Dex a bit (these mages are a complete pushover as it is, unless you have SCS Smarter Mages or something).  Then maybe giving the chessboard Queen the AC5 bracers.  The King, btw, is completely screwed up - fixed some scripting, incorrectly set items, hacked attributes and made him a fighter-mage so the 2-handed sword actually makes sense (he was a "mage" without the script to use his memorised spells and had the avatar of a cleric, rather incorrectly).

I think those were the main conflicts between your suggestions and Bursk's (if he even cares anymore - maybe he's sodded off to BG2 or NWN by now :o).  I did decide to put the spear +1 on the gnoll chief and the halberd +1 on the bandit camp gnoll Britik, who appears later and is a bit more powerful than a gnoll chief anyway.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on February 24, 2007, 01:03:22 AM
. . . a six-foot-long chain with an iron weight at one end and a sickle at the other.
What kind of weapon is *that*?
<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_weapons>An extremely effective one</a>, against a single opponent, anyway. A beginning or intermediate fighter wouldn't know what the heck to do with such a weapon, but a mastery would be quite deadly. A nasty disemboweling blade in one hand, a variable-range flail in the other, and in the middle, a length of chain to entrap an opponent's weapon or arm.

And I happen to think that the nunchaku has a lot more in common with the flail than a whip does (at least except for the part about how both ends of it are the "business end"). The whip works on an entirely different principle.

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So apart from the ammo belt on Zal, what are you suggesting?
Absolutely nothing--I think giving Zal a container to store his tools is just right. As for the rest of it, I was correcting the list of what the mod did--the original author seemed to have Vax and Zal confused, as well as to think that Zal used Throwing Daggers as well as Darts.

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As far as Beyn, I was thinking of just giving him the AC7 bracers and hiking up his Dex a bit (these mages are a complete pushover as it is, unless you have SCS Smarter Mages or something).  Then maybe giving the chessboard Queen the AC5 bracers.
Okay, I just think that AC 6 is perfectly fine for being the best Mage armor available in BG1. You may disagree, fine. I simply feel that Bracers of AC 3, 4, and 5 would be better left for BG2.

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I think those were the main conflicts between your suggestions and Bursk's.
There's no real need to reconcile all of our suggestions into one cohesive whole--besides, I've contradicted myself enough in this thread without any help from others. :) As long as the final setup makes logical sense, is rather consistent, makes Kara-Turan weapons more difficult to obtain than their equally enchanted Western counterparts, and doesn't create any more "candy store" areas where powergamers can go get superior weapons almost immediately after starting the game, then I'm happy with it.

  I did decide to put the spear +1 on the gnoll chief and the halberd +1 on the bandit camp gnoll Britik, who appears later and is a bit more powerful than a gnoll chief anyway.[/quote]
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on February 28, 2007, 03:04:21 AM
And I happen to think that the nunchaku has a lot more in common with the flail than a whip does (at least except for the part about how both ends of it are the "business end"). The whip works on an entirely different principle.
I decided to test this statement on a less-than-willing subject (heh, j/k).  The whip and flail both have a handle, a flexible part in the middle, and a "business end" used to strike the target.  And they're both used by raising the handle quickly and delivering the business end in a whipping or flailing motion.  How are they "entirely" different, apart from looks?  I'm not saying they're used *exactly* the same way, but proficiency oversplitting has already run amok in BG2, why make it any worse?  Besides, as we've already discussed, we're limited to the existing proficiencies in the engine.  And I want whips, dammit! :D

Edit:
I like the idea of Tamoko getting a Katana (if there's to be a Katana+2 in the game, she's the only one worthy of having it). It fits her background, her weapon choice in ToB, and the fact that she's a pureclass Cleric who casts Flame Arrow: A rulebreaker!
Originally, I wanted her to have the katana +1, mainly because it would taunt the observant player from the opening cutscene. But it works just as well (and legally) on one of her cohorts.
I'm not really concerned about Clerics not legally being allowed to wield bloodletting weapons, particularly as this is a Kara-Turan god we're talking about her serving. Besides, BioWare had all the time in the world to think about what kind of gear to give her in ToB, and they saw fit to have her dual-wield a Katana & Wakizashi.
I stumbled across a character profile for Tamoko in a Dragon article.  They have fairly accurate profiles of Jaheira and Sarevok too.  But Tamoko is described as a LN 11th-level human ninja shadow warrior (an assassin, I guess, in BG2 engine terms) with a katana +3, "one of the finest ever crafted by the swordsmiths of Kozakura."  It seems she got teleported to an island off Athkatla while trying to assassinate a high-ranking wu jen.

So, any particular reason they have Tamoko as a cleric in the game?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on February 28, 2007, 06:23:43 AM
I still care!
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on March 02, 2007, 08:56:29 AM
The whip and flail both have a handle, a flexible part in the middle, and a "business end" used to strike the target.  And they're both used by raising the handle quickly and delivering the business end in a whipping or flailing motion.  How are they "entirely" different, apart from looks?
LENGTH
Flail: 3-4 feet
Nunchaku: 2.5-3 feet
Whip: 4-10 feet

RANGE
Flail: 2-4 feet
Nunchaku: 1-3 feet
Whip: 5-10 feet (useless in true melee)

DAMAGE
Flail: Momentum generated by weight, breaks bone
Nunchaku: Momentum generated by speed, breaks bone
Whip: Momentum generated by speed, raises welts & cuts skin

MOTION OF USE
Flail: Swinging or spinning, then powerful swing
Nunchaku: Swinging or spinning, then powerful swing
Whip: Pulling back to bring length into the air, then powerful downward stroke to aim the whip at a specific point, then reverse follow-through from the wrist to crack the whip & begin backswing for next attack

ARMOR-PIERCING CAPACITY
Flail: High
Nunchaku: Moderate
Whip: None

BINDING CAPACITY (ability to wind around opponent's weapon, limb, or neck, restricting its movement)
Flail: Very Low
Nunchaku: None
Whip: High
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on March 02, 2007, 10:03:44 AM
Nunchaku have moderate armour-piercing capacity? ???

Let me put it this way: if I were to introduce a whip (and I will :P), which proficiency should I give it?

I'll think about introducing the nunchaku, but offhand, I don't have any Sword Coast CREs in mind that would have them.

Also, does anyone know about this:
So, any particular reason they have Tamoko as a cleric in the game?
Or to put it another way, does anyone give a flying gibberling's bollock if I make her an assassin or kensai (her BG2 kit) and give her a katana +2?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on March 03, 2007, 01:48:26 PM
Well, if you're wearing leather or chain armor, a good blow from a nunchaku is still going to cause a heavy bruise--even splint wouldn't be able to shrug it off completely. Whereas, if you're up against somebody armed with a whip, all you have to do is wear a half-decent cloak and make sure to protect your head, and you're invulnerable.

I do hear you, whips would make a very nice roleplaying addition--I just don't think they're that feasible. I mean, I'd like to introduce an enemy whose favored weapon is a short-handled spear with an envenomed whip at the butt end, I simply realize that it ain't gonna happen. As far as I know, BG2 (and therefore Tutu) still has BG1's proficiencies of Blunt, Large Sword, Spiked, etc., still lying around unused, and you could theoretically hijack those (or at least one of them, and rename it "Exotic"), but I don't believe you'd ever be able to increment that proficiency at Character Creation or Level Up--meaning the best you could do is have a recruitable NPC who specializes in exotic weapons, and give them a script to increment the Exotic proficiency at certain levels.
Failing that, all you could do is slap Whips into the Flail proficiency. As I've said, Whips are almost entirely unlike Flails, but at least that makes more sense than, say, Halberd.

Personally, I kind of like Tamoko as a Cleric. Making her an Assassin or Kensai goes against the grain of her dialogues, which are very pacifist--but Dragon magazine wants her to be Ninja. Either way, she's supposed to do a single hitpoint of damage to CHARNAME in the first cutscene, and I feel that a Cleric could accomplish that the easiest--just turn the (nerfed) Flame Arrow into a Magic Stone and there you go. As for a Kara-Turan Cleric wielding a Katana, I would have no problem with that at all.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on March 03, 2007, 05:25:08 PM
The BG1 proficiences aren't unused in BG2 - they're larger groupings that entail the smaller ones.  So if you give someone the Large Sword proficiency, for example, they'll get skilled in longswords, katanas, scimitars, etc.  Plus I'm pretty sure we can't rename any proficiencies as they're hardcoded.  There are a bunch of unused ones (intended I think for things like gun and blackjack originally) but they would have the issues you describe.

I don't think Tamoko is supposed to be that pacifist - cleric or otherwise.  As a cleric, she has Animate Dead and Flame Strike.  Not exactly peacekeeping spells.  Though a kensai is not necessarily militaristic either - many see swordplay as an artform.  How does she become a kensai in BG2?  A dual-classing the other way around might work, but not cleric -> kensai.

Flindbars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flind) are essentially nunchaku:
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Flinds use a nunchaku-like weapon called a flindbar, which consists of a pair of metal rods linked together by a chain.
I think there are three flinds in BG1 - two in the bandit camp and one at the archaeological site.  I guess I could dig up some weapon stats and make some flindbars.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: SixOfSpades on March 04, 2007, 12:41:53 AM
If you ever find out what the heck the flindbar is supposed to do on each hit (other than make the victim automatically succeed on their Save vs. Wands roll), please do let me know. :)
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on March 04, 2007, 01:16:24 AM
Well, funnily enough, I was just reading up on them.
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A flindbar is a pair of chain-linked iron bars.  In combat, the bars are spun around at great speed, striking up to twice in a round.  In addition, flindbars can be used to disarm opponents.  Each successful hit requires the victim to save vs. wands.  If the saving throw is failed, the victim's weapon becomes entangled in the chain and is torn from his grasp.
Flindbar
Cost: 8, Wgt: 6, Type: Blunt, Speed: 4, Damage 1d4 (from the Complete Book of Humanoids)

The disarming feature could probably be implemented with an effect opcode on the flindbar.  If not the "Drop Weapons in Panic" opcode (which may be flaky, causing someone to drop any piece of equipment), then maybe just a temporary THAC0 penalty.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Gorilym on March 04, 2007, 02:53:05 PM
I don't think Tamoko is supposed to be that pacifist - cleric or otherwise.  As a cleric, she has Animate Dead and Flame Strike.  Not exactly peacekeeping spells.
Well, there's not that much to go on, but she's pretty adamant about wanting Sarevok to survive despite having recognized the lunacy of his plans. As for the spells, aren't they simply part of the standard selection for a cleric of her alignment?

How does she become a kensai in BG2?  A dual-classing the other way around might work, but not cleric -> kensai.
Since Tamoko is almost certainly dead beyond resurrection by BG2 (i.e. Yoshimo working with Irenicus because he believes that Charname was responible for the death of his sister, which may well be the case), I'm of the opinion that the kensai Tamoko is not the same creature as the BG1 cleric.

I believe her appearance in ToB is basically a what-if scenario (albeit in hell, so it can kill you): if Gorion had not rescued Charname, would he/she have become like Sarevok? Thus you fight a party (including modified "incarnations" of Tamoko and Sarevok's other dead cronies) led by an alternate reality "Charname" with the opposite alignment as the PC.

If not the "Drop Weapons in Panic" opcode (which may be flaky, causing someone to drop any piece of equipment), then maybe just a temporary THAC0 penalty.
"Drop weapons in panic" is evil because creatures are too dumb to pick up items after morale failure ceases, and very few creatures carry multiple weapons.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on April 02, 2007, 08:25:40 AM
Any news?
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on April 02, 2007, 01:33:49 PM
I'm still working on it - in fact it's been my primary project lately, because I thought I could finish it quickly :o.  I haven't posted any news because I think I've answered most of the questions and even coded the bulk of the changes - it's just come down to fine tuning the details (always the time-consuming part).  Though as I've mentioned elsewhere (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=9277&view=findpost&p=84063), I've expanded the scope of the mod quite a bit, so I may decide to call it something else and perhaps just add an option to install the original Lost Items if you so desire.  It's strayed quite a bit from the original author's idea (http://forums.spellholdstudios.net/index.php?showtopic=6424) to just add a single item to dewussify monks :D.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on April 02, 2007, 02:39:52 PM
Thanks, Miloch.  Nice to know it's still being worked on.

I haven't been around much recently (not that I ever really do anything other than request additions/changes to mods), but I'll be sure to take a look at the mod once it's released.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Bursk on August 28, 2007, 09:35:55 AM
I've just read through the topic again and must say that I'm really looking forward to Miloch's version of this mod.  I think it'll be a fine addition to the game.  I haven't seen him around recently, so hope he's still working on this!
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on October 15, 2007, 09:06:05 AM
Yeah, this is still on my to-do list.  A move necessitated my break from modding for a few months.

I guess I'll share one of my more harebrained ideas - the "restoration" of the Ioun Stone of Luck (long known as a hoax item (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG/tricks.php)):
Ioun Stone of Luck (http://www.farseek.com/bg/iounstnd.gif)
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Soul Forge on December 20, 2007, 02:18:28 AM
Am I missing something? Isn't one of the mod's components supposed to give a monk +3 AC bonus if wisdom is over 15 ? This is the only component i installed. Is it because my Dex modifier is already higher than this (+4). I noticed a low dex , high wisdom character gains the +3 benefit. (I also tested the enemy rolls to match the indicated AC). If this is how it's supposed to work then, pfft...useless. I'd rather go for high dex. And speaking of monks, the flurry of blows from the Sword and Fist mod does not give the -4 THACO as is intended (It shows in Character screen, but rolls are the same as without flurry). Well actually i don't mind since this seems to be 1use/day (lvl1). Sorry if that last bit isn't related but I hope one of the enlightened regulars here could answer me.

edit: Grr.. ok i had the two bonuses stack with a new character (18 dex, 16 wis), then i reloaded and it went back to just the dex bonus.
Title: Re: Hey, what's this 'Lost Items' mod like?
Post by: Miloch on January 06, 2008, 04:28:36 PM
It should give you the +3 AC no matter what your Dexterity is.  I can't really speak for that component, since Ascension64 coded it, and he may have just copied the original mod's resources there.  I *think* we may need to change the timing from 'Permanent' to 'Permanent after death' on the monk tome.  Though I'm not sure if that would help with the oddness you're seeing, maybe someone more knowledgeable about the game engine can answer that.

As for Sword & Fist, you might have better luck posting in the mod's forum (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showforum=120) (and I say "might" because the authors haven't been around a whole lot lately, but maybe someone else there will know more).