Pocket Plane Group
Miscellany, Inc. => Mod Discussion and Announcements => Topic started by: jcompton on June 02, 2005, 12:53:54 PM
-
The Illithium quest makes the quest much longer (you have to find the duergar's brother in the Temple) but fails to add any in-depth role playing or desirable reward (say, 400 pounds of illithium, which would be enough to complete both the statue and the Mace of Disruption).
The whole point of the Temple quest is that you have to make a hard decision about what's most important to you, and what's most important to the Temple, for that matter. If you're approaching everything from the standpoint that "more lQQt should result", then yes, you might be disappointed from time to time.
-
jcompton: To some extent I agree with you, but for first time gamers there is no "choice". The first time that I played BG2 I aquired the illithium for the temple without even knowing that I could later use it to improve the Mace of Disruption instead. If the game were to force a situation wherein there was a clear choice between the good of the Temple and gaining a powerful item, your words would ring true. But, as it stands, the game offers no such depth. Also, I think that any mod that adds such a situation should take into account that the Temple might find equipping one of its priests with such a weapon far more desirable than possessing a silly statue.
SimDing0: I look foward to it, then. I look for one of two things in a quest mod: in-depth roleplaying or a desirable reward (not necessarily a power-gamer item, just some incentive not to skip the quest ;-)
a Wounded Lion
-
jcompton: To some extent I agree with you, but for first time gamers there is no "choice". The first time that I played BG2 I aquired the illithium for the temple without even knowing that I could later use it to improve the Mace of Disruption instead. If the game were to force a situation wherein there was a clear choice between the good of the Temple and gaining a powerful item, your words would ring true. But, as it stands, the game offers no such depth.
Is it a lack of "depth" if a farmer has to choose between eating his crop or saving it for seed?
I'll grant you that, given the way 95% of the game is designed (BG2 is fundamentally designed so that the player can win without too much trouble) this is an unusual situation. If you play some older games, such as the adventure games of the 80s, however, you'll find many such situations. (You find a bag of chocolate coins. You can eat them and they're delicious, but maybe there's someone much later in the game who will only take payment in chocolate coins. Oh, you ate them? Sucks to be you.)
Also, I think that any mod that adds such a situation should take into account that the Temple might find equipping one of its priests with such a weapon far more desirable than possessing a silly statue.
Most of the priests of the temple aren't out killing vampires every day. They're sweeping the floors and tending to the mundane concerns of their flock. A statue is far more "useful" to them anyway.
-
Besides, if you'd gone to rescue Imoen first, as any right-thinking follower of Lathander or Helm would do (or alternatley, if you'd gone to show Irenicus his own guts as any right-thinking Talosian would do), you'd be in chapter six by the time you started the quest and woudl probably be able to find out about this option.
-
Is it a lack of "depth" if a farmer has to choose between eating his crop or saving it for seed?
I know I don't know anything about modding, but this just screamed at me to say something.
One, I always get the MoD+2. I find the immunity to level drain more important than Helm's statue. Two, in reference to the farmer comment, (I come from a farming family) most farmers grow enough crop for A) food and B) seeds for the next growing cycle. If they don't, they're pretty stupid (not to mention hungry and/or poor) farmers.
I guess that makes me a 'cheater'. :D
Hmm, maybe I should CLUAConsole:CreateItem("IACORN03") for my folks this year.
;) ;D ;D
-
What if you only have two-hundred pounds of seed, though? I may not know much about farming, but I do know that one needs two-hundred pounds of seed to upgrade a mace or make a statue.
-
whee! I get to swing a 200 lbs. mace! ;D
my guess that a few grams would be more than enough to coat the mace for up grade and a couple of few pounds to replace it, either way the amount would not be missed by an uppidy artist.
-
If anything I find most games severely lacking in this department. Before I read about Ruad I carried along everything and the kitchen sink, because I expected to put very many things (even the books) to good use in the future. Not loosing the rewards of the other choices makes a decision futile and thus makes it a lame fedex quest. The problem IMO is that I sometimes tend to have a list in mind of the items and rewards I can get doing certain quests which reduces the replay fun. Perhaps a reward system like the one in IWD2 would stop that.
-
whee! I get to swing a 200 lbs. mace! ;D
my guess that a few grams would be more than enough to coat the mace for up grade and a couple of few pounds to replace it, either way the amount would not be missed by an uppidy artist.
That sounds like a (mini) mod idea. I'm pretty damn sure that sarles wouldn't notice if you gave him 198 lbs of illithium instead of 200 pounds. It's always bothered me as well that you don't get the illithium back. Cromwell should probably mention if he plans on keeping the rest of the illithium as payment, no?
-
What if you only have two-hundred pounds of seed, though? I may not know much about farming, but I do know that one needs two-hundred pounds of seed to upgrade a mace or make a statue.
Then I won't have to worry about little Ghreyfain's running around, will I?. :pirate
The better comparision Jason should've made was with cattle or hogs.
I didn't know you could upgrade the damned MoD until I read a Dan Simpson's WT.
For first time players - you're best off doing what Jester did: packrat EVERYTHING you find. Stuff it inside one of the tables/barrels/crates in Athkatla. I typically use the ones in front of the Copper Coronet.
Other than becoming a packrat, (and reading WT) the only in game way to find out about the upgrade is to stuff MoD in the bag of holding and talk to Cromwell. IIRC, he digs through your stuff and mentions something about needing a special metal. And depending on your style of gameplay (ie: how fast you save Imoen), reloading from a save isn't always a choice.
I do agree that making the choice is very roleplay. What's more important to your PC: helping the temple of Helm (and thusly increasing the workload of countless acolytes and workman's comp. suits due to repetative stress disorder from polishing) or sticking it to a snooty 'ar-teest' by blagging him the wrong material?
-
<---- another one who didn't know you could use Illithium with the mace until I was told on the 'net.
-
Is it a lack of "depth" if a farmer has to choose between eating his crop or saving it for seed?
I'll grant you that, given the way 95% of the game is designed (BG2 is fundamentally designed so that the player can win without too much trouble) this is an unusual situation. If you play some older games, such as the adventure games of the 80s, however, you'll find many such situations. (You find a bag of chocolate coins. You can eat them and they're delicious, but maybe there's someone much later in the game who will only take payment in chocolate coins. Oh, you ate them? Sucks to be you.)
This kind of situation is just annoying. Do you, as a player, honestly enjoy having to 'packrat' every item that you come across, just because it may (or may not) be useful elsewhere in the game? Do you enjoy having an inventory of several hundred items that you're afraid to use or sell because you might (or might not) need them later? I think it blows donkey, myself. I think there should, at the least, be some sort of hint that an item might possess another use.
Most of the priests of the temple aren't out killing vampires every day. They're sweeping the floors and tending to the mundane concerns of their flock. A statue is far more "useful" to them anyway.
The number of priests tasked to each job is irrelevant. The hunters of the Temple stand to gain an very useful weapon which will enable them better protect the flock. The improved Mace of Disruption requires the illithium. The statue, while it may magnificent and all, can be made from any material by any talented artist, when it comes down to it.
a Wounded Lion
-
Besides, if you'd gone to rescue Imoen first, as any right-thinking follower of Lathander or Helm would do (or alternatley, if you'd gone to show Irenicus his own guts as any right-thinking Talosian would do), you'd be in chapter six by the time you started the quest and woudl probably be able to find out about this option.
Interesting that you think so. I nearly always complete this quest early if I am a cleric. After all, if you are a cleric, then the first place that you are sent (and would logically go even if you were not sent) is the Temple district... and I generally accept all the Temple quests to raise the necessary money and experience to go after Imoen/Irenicus.
;-) a Wounded Lion
-
CLUAConsole:CreateItem("bag31") made my packrat life easier. I just told myself I found it in E's room instead of Spellhold.
The statue, while it may magnificent and all, can be made from any material by any talented artist, when it comes down to it.
@ The people better served by yet another mace?
You are definitely not an art person when it comes to Illithium statues. :P
-
Scrounged up an old save game the check with Cromwell. I ditched every component piece I knew of and kept only the MoD+1. The dwarf didn't saw boo about it.
Does this mean the upgraded MoD+2 is an Easter egg? :)
I don't like packratting everything either. Usually, I just play through, selling the stuff I don't need/want/use. Then I play again after reading WT and things off the net.
-
The statue, while it may magnificent and all, can be made from any material by any talented artist, when it comes down to it.
Just recalled - the high priest mentions Prism would've been commissioned to do the work, but alas, his untimely death. Now I feel bad about his suicide in Nashkel! :'( Hmmm, there would be a mod thing. Keep Prism alive in BG1 and he'll show up to make the statue in BG2, not requiring the illithium(sp) at all.
-
Perhaps changing the description of the Ore would be easier?
"This is 200 stones of pure illithium ore. Illithium is renowned for both its luster and its unique property of never becoming soiled. Illithium is also prized by armorer's for it's use in creating magical items."
Subtle but hinting at the obvious.
-
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?
-
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?
My only presumption is that you should have the choice. Personally, I would enjoy being able to do both. But if its a choice between the two, then the player should be aware of such.
a Wounded Lion
-
Another interesting option for Evil players: Kill Sir Sarles, insuring that none of the churches may commission his services. Recieve reward from the Temple of Talos. Use Illithium to gain the MoD+2. Hehe. Now that's some roleplaying, if I do say so. :P
a Wounded Lion
-
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?
Oh, puh-leeeze, I just poked my head in since Kuemper was fiddlin' with BG2 earlier and I know the answer to that:
They're succumbing to their inner-twinks. ;D They want to have better weapons.
Seriously, tho: ---UPDATE--- K was testing situations with Cromwell, and if you have JUST the Illithium and no MoD on hand, he comments that he could do something if you find a MoD... still, it's an awkward arrangement to just happen to swing by Cromwell's while on you way back to the temple with stuff you know is intended for something other than buffing your weapons. Otherwise, as many people said - you never know you could upgrade your MoD.
Empath, a sucker for the obvious joke. :)
-
Another interesting option for Evil players: Kill Sir Sarles, insuring that none of the churches may commission his services. Recieve reward from the Temple of Talos. Use Illithium to gain the MoD+2. Hehe. Now that's some roleplaying, if I do say so. :P
Aye, apt roleplaying, with a little twinkish rollplaying too, but that's just evil! Why, oh WHY, would anyone do that? :pirate
Empath likes how this kid thinks... ;D
-
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?
Jase, I presume nothing.
I hate frickin' undead. I've hated undead since 1st edition. That's why I want MoD+2.
As Empath stated above - the game doesn't give you much choice. Unless for some ungodly reason, you've been packratting 200# of metal in your pack, you don't know what good it's for except for a blippin' statue. I think the point Wounded Lion makes is that there might be more OBVIOUS choices. I agree.
The entire game is skewed toward being good. Or am I presuming that as well?
-
Unless for some ungodly reason, you've been packratting 200# of metal in your pack, you don't know what good it's for except for a blippin' statue.
As Rabain mentioned, if the description makes it evident that your character *does* know its other capabilities, it works well. Presented with this knowledge, the player has the choice between deciding to hold on in the hope that they'll get the opportunity to use it as the description mentions (why may or may not pay off to their knowledge), or to give it away as the quest requires. This is distinctly less cheesy in my eyes with presenting the player with a blind question of "do you want to finish the quest or get a powerful item?" It promotes greater roleplaying and character awareness, and less out-of-game consideration of which path will get you the biggest reward.
-
You misread that, actually. He's suggesting it be changed. The italics are his suggested addition. Currently it just reads "This is 200 stones of pure illithium ore. Illithium is renowned for both its luster and its unique property of never becoming soiled."
-
As Rabain mentioned, if the description makes it evident that your character *does* know its other capabilities, it works well. Presented with this knowledge, the player has the choice between deciding to hold on in the hope that they'll get the opportunity to use it as the description mentions (why may or may not pay off to their knowledge), or to give it away as the quest requires. This is distinctly less cheesy in my eyes with presenting the player with a blind question of "do you want to finish the quest or get a powerful item?" It promotes greater roleplaying and character awareness, and less out-of-game consideration of which path will get you the biggest reward.
The big word there is IF.
Yes, ROLEplaying is good.
-
Okay, here's a hypothetical question.
How do all these people know the Mace of Disruption even exists? Even if they've heard some fourteenth-generation rumour about it, how do they know what it is when they find it? Priests have no way of doing this in the game engine BGII uses, so they can't without the help of a powerful wizard. Given there aren't any NPC wizards of sufficient power in Athkatla to identify the item for you (except the Cowled Wizards, who would most probably lie to you about its properties and offer to buy it from you at a 'generous' price) the whole argument is academic.
For that matter, how does anyone in BGII (Cromwell included) know how to 'upgrade' a frickin' artifact? Furthermore - there's no justification for the description suggesting potential uses. Only an master smith dealing in exotic weapons would have any idea a precious metal could be used in forging weapons. How else could one possibly obtain this knowledge? Besides all this, you'd never find it in a pool of blood in a vampire's house - that's like Superman having a nice block of kryptonite on ice in his fridge!
There's really no advantage to having one party member immune to level drain if you're roleplaying properly anyway. Why the heck would ten vampires all attack the same fighter? What group would allow a fighter to fight ten vampires by himself?
It's a level 4 (3 with Cleric Remix) spell called 'Negative Plane Protection.' I think y'all need to get over the MoD already.
What else are you using those 12 level 4 spell slots for anyway?
-
Unless you are planning to make a mod that removes all erronious description from items in the game that argument is pointless.
Many items in the game have descriptions that you/or anyone else couldn't possibly know. (for example all the artifact pieces for weapons that can be assembled).
As it stands these are in the game and it makes much more sense to be told/know that illithium can be used in the forging of weapons/armour than to know the full history of some random sword/shield/armour you found on some dead enemy.
At least with the artifact pieces they can only be used to upgrade/create artifacts...with the illithium you could give it away without ever knowing its other use.
-
All this presumes that the game should be designed to ensure you get the Mace of Disruption +2. Why, exactly, are you people presuming this?
Because there are quite a lot vampires in the game and with the Mace of Destruction +2 my cleric/fighter is save against level drain wich is a good thing because if not he gets level drained and looses the high level spells that are needed to cure my other party members from level drain! I didn't know how to finish the game without the MoD+2. Saying I got nearly depressive trying to do so.
-
First off, at some point Aran gives you an amulet which gives immunity to level drain, and which a cleric/fighter can wear, so you should be set there. I think you even get it before you face Bodhi for the first time. Second, you need to take advantage of the surroundings to minimize the harm they do. Try to face them in a doorway - put a fighter-type in the door and don't move. Let the foes come to you. Have your other characters stand behind and cast spells/use missle weapons. Your cleric/fighter should be healing the heck out of the tank in the door, and using the level drain protection spell to protect him/her. I use this method in Firkraag's dungeon and it works quite well.
-
The argument isn't really about he necessity of having the MoD +2 but more about this upgrade being one of the few (the only?) which requires an item that is used to complete another quest. Added with the fact that there is no clue as to what the illithium could be used for the player doesn't have much choice...none at all really...if they have completed the Sarles quest and used the illithium there.
If it was even hinted at...it would be enough imho.
-
It's a level 4 (3 with Cleric Remix) spell called 'Negative Plane Protection.' I think y'all need to get over the MoD already.
What else are you using those 12 level 4 spell slots for anyway?
Do you understand how short the duration of NPP is? I'm sorry, but I use my cleric/druid spells mostly for healing, restoration, death ward. Ya know. Helpful spells. ::)
Yes, the point is whether to give the illithium up for the quest or keep. Has no one ever played chaotic or evil characters? Sometimes, these kinds of people (the ones I play anyway) just don't want to give shit up. Ooo, the temple of Helm wants this chunk of weird-ass metal? Wonder what I can get by selling it? Maybe I'll just stash it away somewhere safe, just to pissoff those Helmite bastards. Mmm, yeah, now *that* sounds like a plan!! <beg>
Mentioned also was the amulet of power. What if you're playing someone with no spellcasting ability? NPP only lasts five turns - way too short IMO. There aren't that many ways to protect against level drain in SoA.
As for superman having kryptonite in his fridge: depends on what color.
-
Mentioned also was the amulet of power. What if you're playing someone with no spellcasting ability? NPP only lasts five turns - way too short IMO. There aren't that many ways to protect against level drain in SoA.
I mentioned that in response to someone griping that his cleric/fighter was getting drained and thus couldn't use restoration. There's no excuse for that, really; either put the amulet on your priest, or go hide behind a tank and use the geometry of the terrain to force your foes to only hit the tank. Hell, slap the amulet on a paladin/ranger/other casting tank and solve both problems.
-
Mentioned also was the amulet of power. What if you're playing someone with no spellcasting ability? NPP only lasts five turns - way too short IMO. There aren't that many ways to protect against level drain in SoA.
Not to be too pedantic or anything, but it lasts for five ROUNDS not turns. If NPP lasted for five turns, the whole convo would be moot! :) But I'm with you, I'll take an item that grants this protection, constantly, over a spell that doesn't last for the duration of a good anti-Undead fight. Sheesh even Bless lasts for SIX rounds... ;) Plus you "lose" one round at least just casting the spell, on ONE person, so it sure isn't of any use in a party. And its pretty lame for pre-fight buffing, since the first cast will have EXPIRED by the time you cast it on #6.... O_o
Anyway, NPP is certainly, IMHO, no replacement for the amulet or the MoD.
For those looking for more protection vs level drain, check out the Item Upgrade mod - you can make a nifty little buckler with that property, from the relatively useless +1 Buckler from Maevar's guildhall.....
-
All of which goes back to clearly establishing that the game developers intended for vampires to be fairly challenging threats to any party that doesn't have a cleric of sufficiently high level to just explode them at will. (Which you can get Anomen up to, and the effect is really great.)
-
All of which goes back to clearly establishing that the game developers intended for vampires to be fairly challenging threats to any party that doesn't have a cleric of sufficiently high level to just explode them at will. (Which you can get Anomen up to, and the effect is really great.)
Really?
He's usually too busy polishing his mace...uh, that didn't come out...nevermind.
-
All of which goes back to clearly establishing that the game developers intended for vampires to be fairly challenging threats to any party that doesn't have a cleric of sufficiently high level to just explode them at will. (Which you can get Anomen up to, and the effect is really great.)
LOL yes, it is really great. One time I had Anomen and I hadn't done the Umar Hills before leaving for Spellhold.... so I did it after returning. <chunk> <chunk> :) It was ridiculously easy what with him destroying virtually all of the foes simply by walking around anywhere near them! Nothing like a 14+ lvl Cleric to reduce your Undead "problems" to insignifigance.... ;) Obviously, I ALWAYS do Umar before leaving for Spellhold now.....
-
Since the Umar Hills are crawling with undead that is a reasonable choice or are you talking about the visitors Tactics (IIRC) puts there?
The usual CRPG approach would be something like the paladin in Malavorn's lair (way too late in IWD for me and I missed him twice). He had the weapon and failed. But perhaps the clumsy reason for the mace being in the lair is something along this line. They killed the former wielder, but none of the vampires wanted to touch it (again) or they felt powerful enough to protect it in their lair rather than give it away or it was just the hybris of the new vamps on the block.
-
Since the Umar Hills are crawling with undead that is a reasonable choice or are you talking about the visitors Tactics (IIRC) puts there?
I don't use Tactics, and in 99% of my games, Umar and Imnesvale is one of the first things I do, often before I do Nalia's Keep. I often play a Ranger, so it only makes sense to go there quickly, and with my Blade or other PCs, its one of the easier out of town areas so I just got in the habit of doing it right off the bat.
In the case I described, I had taken a bit of a break from playing the game and when I started from my old save, I simply forgot that I hadn't done it yet! <sheepish grin> Yeah, yeah, check the Journal... ;)
The usual CRPG approach would be IMO like the paladin in Malavorn's lair (way too late in IWD for me and I missed him twice). He had the weapon and failed. But perhaps the clumsy reason for the mace being in the lair is something along this line. They killed the former wielder, but none of the vampires wanted to touch it (again) or they felt powerful enough to protect it in their lair rather than give it away or it was just the hybris of the new vamps on the block.
Yes that's how I always rationalized them having it - much like the Lich in the Wall and Daystar, or Carsomyr and Firekragg - they won it in a battle and are now keeping the powerful item out of the hands of "Good". Its a pretty common enough plot device really.... :)
-
Has no one ever played chaotic or evil characters? Sometimes, these kinds of people (the ones I play anyway) just don't want to give shit up. Ooo, the temple of Helm wants this chunk of weird-ass metal? Wonder what I can get by selling it? Maybe I'll just stash it away somewhere safe, just to pissoff those Helmite bastards. Mmm, yeah, now *that* sounds like a plan!! <beg>
I like the way she thinks. ;-)
-
All of which goes back to clearly establishing that the game developers intended for vampires to be fairly challenging threats to any party that doesn't have a cleric of sufficiently high level to just explode them at will. (Which you can get Anomen up to, and the effect is really great.)
LOL yes, it is really great. One time I had Anomen and I hadn't done the Umar Hills before leaving for Spellhold.... so I did it after returning. <chunk> <chunk> :) It was ridiculously easy what with him destroying virtually all of the foes simply by walking around anywhere near them! Nothing like a 14+ lvl Cleric to reduce your Undead "problems" to insignifigance.... ;) Obviously, I ALWAYS do Umar before leaving for Spellhold now.....
I did something similar, but with Aerie and CHARNAME (paladin) - same effect :)
The usual CRPG approach would be IMO like the paladin in Malavorn's lair (way too late in IWD for me and I missed him twice). He had the weapon and failed. But perhaps the clumsy reason for the mace being in the lair is something along this line. They killed the former wielder, but none of the vampires wanted to touch it (again) or they felt powerful enough to protect it in their lair rather than give it away or it was just the hybris of the new vamps on the block.
A related idea is that the reason the Mace is in a pool of blood is that the vampires are attempting to either destroy or corrupt it.
Charles
-
Well don't forget the AzureEdge, it can be thrown, and can instakill vampires also, set someone up with AoP up front, pack the Mod and next one throws the AE over their shoulder, should be able to take out one vampire per turn, and have a cleric toss out a few holy smites, vimpires don't like those very much either.
Although I usually do keep the illithium and upgrade either the AE (using IU)or MoD, and get the Holy Buckler (IU), that with the AoP gives 3 with NPP.
-
I haven't done the Illithium quest as an evil cleric so I don't know what Talos has to say about it.
But the high priest of both the Temple of helm and Lathander are happier with the illithium ore then with an actual promise of an llithium staue.
if your a cleric geting working for Lathander. The High Priest is happier with the ore. He tells his subordinate (who gave you the quest) to display the ore as is.
Its pretty much the same deal at the temple of helm.
Okay, here's a hypothetical question.
How do all these people know the Mace of Disruption even exists? Even if they've heard some fourteenth-generation rumour about it, how do they know what it is when they find it? Priests have no way of doing this in the game engine BGII uses, so they can't without the help of a powerful wizard. Given there aren't any NPC wizards of sufficient power in Athkatla to identify the item for you (except the Cowled Wizards, who would most probably lie to you about its properties and offer to buy it from you at a 'generous' price) the whole argument is academic.
For that matter, how does anyone in BGII (Cromwell included) know how to 'upgrade' a frickin' artifact? Furthermore - there's no justification for the description suggesting potential uses. Only an master smith dealing in exotic weapons would have any idea a precious metal could be used in forging weapons. How else could one possibly obtain this knowledge? Besides all this, you'd never find it in a pool of blood in a vampire's house - that's like Superman having a nice block of kryptonite on ice in his fridge!
First off the mace is one of several items that grants immunity to level drain. It be nice to have two or three.
Second the Mace of Disruption IS NOT an artifact. It a mace of distruption not THE mace of distruption. The only real artifact Cromwell puts together is Crom Faeyr. And one of the required items was the instructions.
The vorpal sword, Gesen's Bow and the equalizer and the wave, are powerful items. But they just need to be put together. A sword isn't normally forged with the hilt attached to the blade. The hilt is attached to the blade afterwards. Gesen's bow just needs its string to be attached.
He's puting together the seperate components. He's not enchanting these items. Cespenar is doing some enchanting. As for the mace he's adding a coat of Illithium. The PC doesn't know Illithium can upgrade the mace, unless he talks to Cromwell. The original items discription doesn't say Illithium will upgrade it.
Its not good roleplaying to hold on to the Illthium when the PC hasn't been told by Cromwell that it can be used to upgrade a mace of disruption that he hasn't found yet. However lots of games have these kind of things.
There is magic to divine some of the history on a givin object in D&D. They just added that into identify spell.
Why is the mace of disruption in the pool of blood. Well they may have intended to corrupt the weapon. It could have belonged to some other foolish cleric who tired to take on the vampires alone. I mean the dragonslaying sword is in the red dragons lair. If you can't destory the item ment for destorying might as well keep it close.
-
Personally, I've been always more bothered by the crates of stakes lying around in the vampire lair.
-
Ever been in a gas station or fast-food restaurant where they have those "bathroom cleaning logs" up, and it calls for them to be cleaned every hour or something, and you notice that while it's fastidiously followed for a few days, for the past week and a half it hasn't been marked at all?
Presumably Bodhi established a similar sort of "stake-destroying duty roster" and... well...
-
Silly people!
It's for blood fondue!
-
I can't decide which I like more... the slacking vampires or the blood fondue.
-
Slack vampires - funny and plausible.
All of which goes back to clearly establishing that the game developers intended for vampires to be fairly challenging threats to any party that doesn't have a cleric of sufficiently high level to just explode them at will. (Which you can get Anomen up to, and the effect is really great.)
Exactly! In a PnP game you'd get about 3/4-standard experience for fighting vampires when wearing the Amulet of Power or wielding a Mace of Disruption, since that's what makes them difficult to defeat. Otherwise they're just good fighters and would be worth about 2500-3000 XP rather than the 8000 you get for them.
I'm still with Mr Compton on this issue - if anything, the game should force the party to make more decisions about what powerful items to forge - rather than just giving EVERYONE +3 or greater weapons and shredding everything effortlessly.
-
Slack vampires - funny and plausible.
All of which goes back to clearly establishing that the game developers intended for vampires to be fairly challenging threats to any party that doesn't have a cleric of sufficiently high level to just explode them at will. (Which you can get Anomen up to, and the effect is really great.)
Exactly! In a PnP game you'd get about 3/4-standard experience for fighting vampires when wearing the Amulet of Power or wielding a Mace of Disruption, since that's what makes them difficult to defeat. Otherwise they're just good fighters and would be worth about 2500-3000 XP rather than the 8000 you get for them.
Well, I dunno.... After all, In a PnP game, they would have all of their abilities besides a x2 level drain, like immunity to normal weapons, an extremely powerful charm person, ability to summon aid, ability to assume gaseous form, shapechange, spell immunities AND regeneration etc.... Not exactly "just" a tough fighter without their level drain.
Even without the level drain, I'd say that they were still worth the 4280 XP that 2nd ed suggests [with average HP].... Why they are worth 8000 XP in BG 2 is a bit puzzling, especially since they don't use so many of their powers in BG 2.... ??? Having 55 or so rats appear between you and the vamp would certainly make using the MoD a bit problematic... ;) for a couple of rounds anyway...
-
:D Summon rodent plague - brilliant!
-
All of which goes back to clearly establishing that the game developers intended for vampires to be fairly challenging threats to any party that doesn't have a cleric of sufficiently high level to just explode them at will. (Which you can get Anomen up to, and the effect is really great.)
Is there any way to tell what level is required to blow up undead?
like looking in SK for some variable, would like to know how high I really need, or what
can be done with a particular clerics level. Right now Aerie L12 can usually blow up skeletons and zombies but
not the more powerful.