Pocket Plane Group
Miscellany, Inc. => Ensign First Class Blather => Topic started by: Eral on March 25, 2005, 04:41:03 PM
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All children, except one, grow up
I have been thinking about "growing up" and what it means.
St.Paul said "Now I am a man and I have put away childish things", which I bet any money made his mum laugh her head off- sure you have Paul- and I wonder if this is actually a myth.
Maybe we say "growing up" because we don't want to say "sensible" and "old".
Are we really different to our childhood selves? We have more knowledge and responsibilities, we make more choices, our world expands, and we have figured out about Santa and the Easter bunny: but do we put away childish things?
I can still sing the theme song from "Gigantor".(There are about three people on this forum old enough to remember this.)
I have a "Kimba The White Lion" T-shirt.
One of my sisters still suffers from sibling rivalry and she's had 30 years to get over the birth of the sibling in question.
I admit it might be that we are just really immature.
But look at how popular fantasy fiction is, and all the fantasy in computer games: the fantasy/magical element is what attracts people.
So is growing up real? Or is it just a pat on the back we give ourselves when we take responsibility for ourselves and others?
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I have found that there are two stages to growing up.
The first is when you appreciate that actions have consequences, and to some degree internalize them even if they do not directly affect you.
The second is when you realize that everybody older than you, whom you thought was a pillar of knowledge and insight and wisdom, is faking it.
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Realising that I was not going to be a pillar of insight and wisdom and knowledge, oh and tall and good-looking as well, was a major turning-point in growing up for me.
I had misspent a lot of my late childhood and early adolesence reading L.M.Montgomery's Anne of Green Gables books, and had gained the impression that growing-up was a magical and rapid transformation from ugly and dumb, to beautiful and wise and tall.
I was very disappointed when I realised that the magical transformation she meant was puberty. And that Lucy Maud hadn't been biologically accurate in her descriptions of the process.
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Growing up ... hmmm ... let's see. Growing up is when I realised that my hair was not going to do what I wanted it to, that I couldn't get my own way all the time, that life was more complicated than I had thought. As you grow older, it is also the realisation that nearly all policemen and doctors are younger than you are.
Growing up is only realism, the ability to face the problems life throws at you and being able to solve them without adversely affecting others too much. However, there is a child in all of us - the excitement of Christmas, the joy of amusement parks, the simple pleasures of a walk in the forest. Roleplaying is simply another childish thing that we don't put away.
PS - I still have Pink Panther towels and pillowcases. I always wanted a train set as a child so now I compensate by playing train software on the computer.
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i may grow older, but i wont grow up, not if it means i cant have fun. btw, i will be 52 in a couple months.
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It is logically impossible for me to grow up.
Fact: When I was a kid, my parents--who were grown-ups--were older than me.
Fact: To this very day, my parents--who remain grown-ups--are still older than me.
Fact: When I was a kid, I wanted to eat an entire package of cookies for dinner.
Fact: I still do.
Fact: Bedtime was around 8 or 9 o'clock when I was a kid.
Fact: Bedtime is still 8 or 9 o'clock these days. (Damn you, work.)
I could go on, but I think the evidence is irrefutable.
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I play tons of computer games! I'd say that's like being a kid.
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It was Aldington in either Death of a Hero or the ...uhm do not remeber the title any more, so old I am, who had a very good monologue on the fact that it is an error to think that people grow wiser and smarter with age; in fact, he says we do our best while we are still young. Then he gives the example fo Napolen. It is, like all Aldington only partially serious, but I really liked this way of thinking when I was 16.
I like modding (not so much the games itselves, because I play ridiculously little ever since I discovered modding) because it creates a comfortable reality, where many things can be changed, replayed and fixed. It is probably very childish. :)
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One can definitely be immature, to some degree, forever. (But not in a vacuum. :-*)
"Immature" has such negative connotations so, to compensate, I like to play word games.
Instead of "childish" it's "child-like"
Instead of "responsible" it's "reasonable".
Instead of "punctual" it's "timely"
... You get the idea.
Who says maturity is the pinacle of achievement anyway? All "growing up" really means is "being responsible" - getting a job and ... all that stuff.
And before I depress myself, I'll stop that sentance. ;)
But, I've a sneaking suspicion that St. Paul referres to something similar. Haven't we all been fed the "grow up, get a job, get a wife/husband, get a child, get another, live happily ever after" scheme in some form or another? ::)
But look at how popular fantasy fiction is, and all the fantasy in computer games: the fantasy/magical element is what attracts people.
So is growing up real? Or is it just a pat on the back we give ourselves when we take responsibility for ourselves and others?
Growing up is real, though the extent varies from person to person. The "pat on the back we give ourselves" is the fantasy/escape/vacation. (Or is that what you meant to say?) Better that than alcoholism, spousal abuse and the myriad of ailments that come about from the lack of ..er ..pats.
We all need breaks. Responsiblity is stressful. Stress is bad. Breaks are good. Fantasy is gooOood. 8)
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I was born a pillar of insight and wisdom.
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on second thought, i think i am aging backward, like Merlin. i was much more intense and serious as a kid than i am now. of course, part of that comes from feeling like, at my age, i have the right to just say f*** it, and do what i want.
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I was born a pillar of insight and wisdom.
So when did it all go wrong?
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You're just blinded by my brilliance.
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:D
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Can you be immature forever?
God, I hope so.
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Maturity is in the eye of the beholder. ;)
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I always believed that maturity was a relative term... In other words what seems mature to one person can be immature to another... Similarly, by law of averages, there will always be someone out there more mature than you (unless you are the most mature person on Earth, about a 1 in 5 billion chance), so why bother reaching some society's "benchmark" of maturity....
In a more personal way maturity, to me, means always doing your best to keep your promises, thinking of the consequences of your actions, and having the willpower to resist temptation or forgo gratification when it's in the interest of the greater good... And you can still do all of these, and enjoy a little bit of escapism every now and again...
A while ago, on a MUD I used to inhabit infrequently someone posted a letter they gave to their younger brother upon his 18th birthday, and I'm not sure exactly where it came from... It's a list of rules to live by, a sort of maturity wake-up call...
Rule 1: Life is not fair; get used to it.
Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.
Rule 3: You will NOT make 40,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with a car phone until you earn both.
Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. He doesn't have tenure.
Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping; they called it opportunity.
Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes. Learn from them.
Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes, and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.
Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers but life has not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades; they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This, of course, doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYHTING in real life.
Rule 9: Life is not divided into semseters. You don't get summers off, and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourelf. Do that on your own time.
Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.
Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.
<BDG>
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Maturity?
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Who says maturity is the pinacle of achievement anyway? All "growing up" really means is "being responsible" - getting a job and ... all that stuff...
The "pat on the back we give ourselves" is the fantasy/escape/vacation. (Or is that what you meant to say?)
But we do present maturity as the pinnacle of achievement...(And every time I look at my brother-in-law I am totally in agreement)...You only have to get a job if your parents aren't rich (that's a lot of us, I know)
I guess the question is, is there ever a point when you say "I am grown-up. Done." There is a body of thought that says no, you are never done, you always grow and change: but then how do we explain my grandad?
What I meant by "the pat on the back" was do we compensate ourselves for getting old by saying being grown-up is better?
I think the real reason adults are allowed access to nicotine, alcohol, cars and drugs (and we get shitty when kids do) is because it's to make us accept getting old. Compensation, if you like. ;D
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Well, I don't know that I think of maturity as the pinnacle of achievement - that is to say that it's not on my list of things to accomplish, but I suppose I will along the way. It's all in the definition, however. What does maturity mean to you? Responsibilty? Wisdom? Compassion? Financial Wealth? Personal freedom? All of it? Some of it?
I guess the question is, is there ever a point when you say "I am grown-up. Done." There is a body of thought that says no, you are never done, you always grow and change: but then how do we explain my grandad?
Done is when I'm dead. One of my favorite sayings/quotes, from I don't know where, is 'the more I think I know, the more I (realize I) don't." So I'm in the group that thinks 'you're never done' but it depends on what *you* believe. Forming your own beliefs is a huge part of maturity/growing up. ;)
What I meant by "the pat on the back" was do we compensate ourselves for getting old by saying being grown-up is better? I think the real reason adults are allowed access to nicotine, alcohol, cars and drugs (and we get shitty when kids do) is because it's to make us accept getting old. Compensation, if you like. ;D
I get the compensation part. But you lost me on the "it's to make us accept getting old". The sole thing that makes me accept getting old is "responsibilty". The sole thing that makes me decide being older is better is having more control over my life - or, at least having the illusion of control ::). But being young is by no means a curse, (depending on your household, of course).
And I think the real adults stay faaAaar away from cigarettes (and kids, for that matter), and most should stay faaAaar away from alcohol. ;D
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<stays far away from alcohol but blushes guiltily at the cigarettes bit>
Does that make me a non-real adult?
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Even being responsible doesn't necessarily make one 'mature' in all aspects I've found. Some people excel in being mature and responsible in one area of life and are the pinnacle of childishness, selfishness and immaturity where other things are concerned. I think if you truly examined most people, they'd fall somewhere in between. I know some fifteen year olds that behave better and more maturely than their 30+ year old counterparts and a kid of that age rarely has responsibilities beyond school and whatever chores given them by parents.
If immature means enjoying life and having fun without hurting anyone, then by all means, I'd prefer to be immature any day. :)
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<stays far away from alcohol but blushes guiltily at the cigarettes bit>
Does that make me a non-real adult?
Only if an adult is the sum of their vices. :D
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being mature is just another phase towards death, as you grow older you just find the things u once found fun les fun or not fun at all. so you seek others things to do, in meanwhile you grow older get more experience of life and such and most of all come more to realisy this is all an illusion, cause death is reality it wil take anyone sooner or later
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Da Venom, I think it is growing old that is the sign of death's inevitable progress: physical symptoms, you know, you lose muscle tone, hair, teeth, your marbles, your family has to find a nursing home for you to dribble out the few remaining pitiful days left to you, while they fight over your belongings.
Maturity is a mental state. As is depression, which in my experience is the mental state that causes you to believe that "death is reality" and "life is an illusion". Sometimes being drunk or stoned does as well.
I sincerely hope you are drunk/stoned.
If you are not, you really should go down and see your doctor. Today. And talk about how you are feeling.
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I have full confidence in us all that we can be immature forever.
I have also been informed - repeatedly - that impatience is synonomous with immaturity, if that makes anyone else feel better (or worse).
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I have also been informed - repeatedly - that impatience is synonomous with immaturity, if that makes anyone else feel better (or worse).
I'd been waiting for someone to post that for too long.
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Childhood ends, when your summers stop to be endless, when choices begin to matter and when death is actually an option. How much of the curiosity and excitement, the unlimited pleasures of the new and startling, you can take with you into all the little prearranged boxes of society you eventually inhabit, is up to you.
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Da Venom, I think it is growing old that is the sign of death's inevitable progress: physical symptoms, you know, you lose muscle tone, hair, teeth, your marbles, your family has to find a nursing home for you to dribble out the few remaining pitiful days left to you, while they fight over your belongings.
Maturity is a mental state. As is depression, which in my experience is the mental state that causes you to believe that "death is reality" and "life is an illusion". Sometimes being drunk or stoned does as well.
I sincerely hope you are drunk/stoned.
If you are not, you really should go down and see your doctor. Today. And talk about how you are feeling.
why should i?
It really doesn't matter what you do in life
you could be a murderer or be a good man either way you die eventually.
life is just a thing of things you can't let go..
if u can let things go no matter what then you are prepared to die and go up to somewhere else
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why should i?
So you'll feel better.
How you live does matter.
Don't let the hole you're in swallow you.
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i feel good
life is just a temporary state
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being mature is just another phase towards death, as you grow older you just find the things u once found fun les fun or not fun at all. so you seek others things to do, in meanwhile you grow older get more experience of life and such and most of all come more to realisy this is all an illusion, cause death is reality it wil take anyone sooner or later
Wow. You see things very much the same way I do. You rock.
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gues i'm not the only one ;D
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As long as neither of you are going to run amok in your local school or supermarket with an automatic weapon as a statement of your lack of connectedness, I will try not to worry about your penchant for making such patently untrue statements as "life is temporary state." If you like balancing between laughter and despair, OK.
You don't own guns, do you?
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I have a walk-in closet with a rack of AK's, nines, macs, and grenades.
Nah, I don't have any guns. :P
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As long as neither of you are going to run amok in your local school or supermarket with an automatic weapon as a statement of your lack of connectedness, I will try not to worry about your penchant for making such patently untrue statements as "life is temporary state." If you like balancing between laughter and despair, OK.
You don't own guns, do you?
just cause we have this idea, we run amok and shoot people?
that's just ridiculous
just that life is a temporary state doesn't mean that you want to end it
life is forced upon you, sure you can kill yourself but that's just weak
you just watched too many american new's with kids shooting other kids
that has nothing to do with my meaning of life
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News does not possess an apoostrophe
*shoots Da_venom*
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Sentences do not not possess periods.
*refrains from violence, as it will not solve anything*
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violence is ok, if you can behave yourself
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Da Venom, it's always good to check these things. Really, how would we feel if we read about you in the paper?
Because yes, people gripped by thoughts about the futility of life can do terrible things.
But now I am COMPLETELY reassured and will return to my normal state of frivolity.
Vel: if ever the ABC brings back BackChat, the presenters are going to be very frightened of you. What's the consequence for spelling errors? ;)
(Umm, Ghrey, I think they do.That's what makes them sentences.)
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@ people gripped by thoughts about the futility of life can do terrible things
Whereas people who accept this fact live happily ever after. ;) :)
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(Umm, Ghrey, I think they do.That's what makes them sentences.)
Sentences do not not possess periods.
Read carefully now.
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@ people gripped by thoughts about the futility of life can do terrible things
Whereas people who accept this fact live happily ever after. ;) :)
Life is futile.
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Sentences do not not possess periods.
Read carefully now.
It took me ages to see that extra not. Humblest apogolies.
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IRC has destroyed my ability to place periods at the end of sentances.
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Da Venom, it's always good to check these things. Really, how would we feel if we read about you in the paper?
Because yes, people gripped by thoughts about the futility of life can do terrible things.
But now I am COMPLETELY reassured and will return to my normal state of frivolity.
what abou me when u read me in the paper? It can be either good or bad
besides like you said yourself *Can do* and i really have no lust in taking someone else his life
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I think this forum has proved conclusively that you can be immature forever (and fun) by releasing the Special Commemorative Edition Banter Pack :P
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Maturity is when you realise life is futile, but you have responsibilities and others are depending on you.
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Thankfully the only other depending on me is me :)
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Look. LIFE IS NOT FUTILE. >:(
It is without a purpose. It's completely different.
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Resistance is futile.
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indeed
life is just futile, the only end you have is death
and what purpose could u posssibly have in life?
every man makes mistakes, makes good or bad choices, does this mean someone else is more important than someone else?
and in time you will be forgotten anyway
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Resistance is futile.
I was going to say that >:(
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Things can make you more mature, but that doesn't mean you're not immature. Generally, the best way to prevent becoming 'a grumpy old fart' would be to stay away from careers in the military, or being an auditor / accountant. Even then you can still have a playful side, too.
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Things can make you more mature, but that doesn't mean you're not immature. Generally, the best way to prevent becoming 'a grumpy old fart' would be to stay away from careers in the military, or being an auditor / accountant. Even then you can still have a playful side, too.
I thought 'grumpy old fart' was immature?
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Because life ends in death does not make it futile. It makes it chaotic and orderly at the same time. Because it is entirely up to you what you choose to do with it: the lack of purpose in life just makes it more important that you choose well. This is your hour on the stage. Are you going to eat ice-cream and do the things that are important to you or whinge about how short life is and not have any fun? Just because you are unimportant in the Grand Scheme of Things doesn't mean there's no point to being alive.
Once I accepted the purposelessness of life, I really felt a lot better about the whole thing. (Jester is always right.)
Of course, you are free to sulk in the sand-pit if you want to. Just don't take your bat and ball and go home. Or take anyone else with you.
You know the military world-wide would be vastly improved if they all had to wear party hats and play non-competitive games every day. Fairy dresses instead of fatigues, which would also be good for the Balinese economy. I think we should still let them have guns because that seems so important to them, but a change in uniform might give them a better sense of perspective.
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To quote Curt Cobain from one of his great Nirvana songs. "I miss the comfort of being sad."
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. :pirate
Ho ho it's off to a goth party I go.
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Because life ends in death does not make it futile. It makes it chaotic and orderly at the same time. Because it is entirely up to you what you choose to do with it: the lack of purpose in life just makes it more important that you choose well. This is your hour on the stage. Are you going to eat ice-cream and do the things that are important to you or whinge about how short life is and not have any fun? Just because you are unimportant in the Grand Scheme of Things doesn't mean there's no point to being alive.
Once I accepted the purposelessness of life, I really felt a lot better about the whole thing. (Jester is always right.)
Of course, you are free to sulk in the sand-pit if you want to. Just don't take your bat and ball and go home. Or take anyone else with you.
You know the military world-wide would be vastly improved if they all had to wear party hats and play non-competitive games every day. Fairy dresses instead of fatigues, which would also be good for the Balinese economy. I think we should still let them have guns because that seems so important to them, but a change in uniform might give them a better sense of perspective.
life is nothing but lies
for example in a country where democracy is polished
people say the civilians rule and that the people are free
well the civilians don't rule they just do a vote and the goverment makes the best thing out of whatever comes out of the votes and then makes their own rules
and no single human is free cause you always have to go by the rules wich stupid idiots made up, so if u ever go your own way you either end up in prison or die
second dumb thing is that all those stupid bastard care more for money than for food or water
in fact they care more for money than life
there are just too many humans on earth
but i can go on for ages, but the fact is that humans are just stupid herd of cows
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Actually, there is still plenty of room for more humans. We could easily reach 20 billion.
The problem is that we'd need to share, to be smart with resources, to change lifestyles. And humans aren't good at that, so it's not gonna happen.
There aren't too many people, there are too many stupid people. :)
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[genuine curiosity]does that figure include other forms of animal life?[/genuine curiosity]
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(It's only a democracy when it suits them. For example, George changed his mind a few times - Is was a republic when he need to justify his first win via the electoral college and it was a democracy when he needed to justify his war. But anyway, the US is not an actual democracy - I don't think any country is. What form of government we are, in reality, is surely a matter of opinion ;))
Life is nothing but what you do with it. If, for example, one is that disillusioned with the current state of affairs, all one need do is act (through 'proper' channels) to try and get things resolved - even if nothing actually gets resolved, the action itself is quite cathartic. Speaking from experience: merely "bitching and moaning" only leads to bitterness and depression. It would make one a verifiable old Fart.
Stupity is a matter of opinion. What is stupid to one is probably not stupid to another. :-yin And I'm certainly no cow. ;D
(possibly interesting) numbers: current world population 6,428,658,709; current US population: 295,808,050.
www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html
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But anyway, the US is not an actual democracy - I don't think any country is
Holland(+many other european countrys) is. in our country you can set up your own party for the elections, we have rules agains overpaying your campaign. And so on and so on. if i turn 21 i can be a minister...or maby the president....if people are stupid enough to vote for me.
and its not that we have to many stupid people. we have to many stupid people with stuff that where made by smart people.
its like giving a monkey a shotgun. or electing bush. i believe you need 1 of the 2. only smart people or only stupid people.
Beeing mature is just saying "Im not boring, im mature"
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well you see if there is only smart people then there can't be dumb people wich means that there can't be smart people as well:)
the one cannot do without the other
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euhm....some paradoxes are no paradoxes... like yours.
Becouse if you think your way then just the memory of stupid people will prove we are smart. think on that.
If there was no evil. there still would be good. but only in the eyes of people who can tell the difference.
If we didnt know the earth is round then it still would be round.
i can keep on going with those arguments. ::) 8) :o
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Here are two hypotheses:
1) 2/5ths of a population never reach the abstract thinking stage.
2) The last section of the brain to develop is the judgement portion and it does not finish its development until the age of twenty-five.
Is abstract thinking and judgement indications of maturity? I would say yes. Is liking teddy bears, 'Kimba' tees, silly jokes or roleplaying games a symptom of immaturity? I would say probably not.
I used to think that an unfortunate side effect of maturity or age was inflexibility of thought but in reading this thread I realized that inflexibility of thought is quite probably the truest sign of immaturity.
I am not directing that statement at any of the participtants in this thread. I was just reminded of myself when I was a teenager. I remember when I was nineteen of feeling like I knew it all and I felt if I was ninety. This may have had something to do with the fact that I lost 2/5ths of immediate family by the time I was seventeen (a dramatic way of saying I lost my father and brother).
The saddest side of maturity is the ability to see how many of us hopelessly complicate our lives to our detriment.
Sorry for the cheery post. :-[
@Nihilistic Dream - Have you ever seen the movie"The Big Lebowski?" There are some very funny moments involving nihilists.
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I am not directing that statement at any of the participtants in this thread. I was just reminded of myself when I was a teenager. I remember when I was nineteen of feeling like I knew it all and I felt if I was ninety. This may have had something to do with the fact that I lost 2/5ths of immediate family by the time I was seventeen (a dramatic way of saying I lost my father and brother).
Hear ya. i feel old to. go my portion of bad things in my life to.
The big Labowky? havnt seen it. whats labowksy about?
I got my name of a Rancid song, Nihilisim. (+ it was what the russian used to keep there citizen stupid) Denounce the truth and people will become stupid. look at the americans.
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@ND - "The Big Lebowski" is a movie about mistaken identites and the complications that arise and bowling, and in a funny way about being immature forever. It was made by the Cohen brothers, who also made "Raising Arizona" among other interesting movies and starred Jeff Bridges. It is an odd and funny movie.
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The movie clearly states that it is no fun to be a German Nihilist's girlfriend IIRC.
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Oww... isnt that the movie about The dude? and he gets mixed up with an other labowsky and then he gets in all theys compleetly stupid and derranged storys. and all he wants is a new rug. that one fucking beutifull.
Trowing your friends ashes into the see but the wind is in the wrong way :P and you get your friends ashes all over you.
that one rocked.
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@ND - That's the movie. I have re-rent that movie, the more you see it, the funnier it gets.
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euhm....some paradoxes are no paradoxes... like yours.
Becouse if you think your way then just the memory of stupid people will prove we are smart. think on that.
If there was no evil. there still would be good. but only in the eyes of people who can tell the difference.
If we didnt know the earth is round then it still would be round.
i can keep on going with those arguments. ::) 8) :o
you very wrong
if there is no good there cannot be evil
you see there has too be a difference before u can make a comparison
like for instance if there would be only goodnes people wouldn't say it was goodnes because there is no evil way so people can't see evil or good without a comparison
and the world is round that has nothing to do with a comparison
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^ it was another argument toward the point they were trying to make.
Without good how could we know evil. But evil is not necessary for good to exist. In other words, Just because we don't know something does not mean it doesn't actually exist.
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^ it was another argument toward the point they were trying to make.
Without good how could we know evil. But evil is not necessary for good to exist. In other words, Just because we don't know something does not mean it doesn't actually exist.
Without evil how could we know good. but good is not necesarry for good to exist. In other words you make a difference and so long there is a difference, then the one thing needs the other thing.
every counterpol has use of the other because they make the difference and without any difference then the 2 would not exist
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I think my brain just froze. :P
What?
(you're going to have to do better than that)
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well then mr.frozen brain ;D
why don't you tell that what i just said so you can understand it?:P
how do i write so well that you can understand what i'm saying
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thinking it through, evil isn't neccessary in order for us to know and understand good, all that's required is an understanding of the concept of good and evil. you don't have to have witnessed an 'evil' act to know 'evil' exists. in fact based on the evidence that people who know only of the concept of good and evil, and have little or no practical experience of it, tend to be stronger in their opinions, one could argue that knowing no evil, but understanding the concept, would make for a world of more exaggerated good, as well as no evil ;)
this: :-yin dubious...verrrrrrrry dubious concept ;)
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well then mr.frozen brain ;D
why don't you tell that what i just said so you can understand it?:P
how do i write so well that you can understand what i'm saying
I refuse to believe that this statement makes any sense at all. Which isn't all that hard.
Anyhow, saying "Without evil there could be no good." Only works from a linguistic point of view. If everyone was good we wouldn't NEED a word for it, it'd just be :)
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Good, evil, smart, dumb are all relative terms. It depends on your point of view - terrorist/freedom fighter is a good example.
The idea that there has to be an opposite to all things has been a handy device for TV shows and cartoons, but has the real world ever been that simple? I think growing up - whether it be the lightning strike or gradual dawning - is when you realise that there aren't simple answers anymore, and that you have to find a way to live between being helpless in the face of things you have no control over, and being responsible for them. (OMG, I just said something on-topic. Someone take a picture please.) That being said, "I don't want to grow up" by Tom Waits is still my favourite song.
I think Da Venom is trying to explain Nihilistic Existentalist Buddhism. It may be anarchic as well. When you think of it like that, it becomes much easier to understand. :D
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well then mr.frozen brain ;D
why don't you tell that what i just said so you can understand it?:P
how do i write so well that you can understand what i'm saying
I refuse to believe that this statement makes any sense at all. Which isn't all that hard.
Anyhow, saying "Without evil there could be no good." Only works from a linguistic point of view. If everyone was good we wouldn't NEED a word for it, it'd just be :)
indeed
So my point is if you can't make a difference between things then you can't tell it's good bad misshapen goodshapen or whatever god or evil
it are eachothers counter pols one cannot do without the other
this has nothing to do with buddishm, at least i think so ;)
but enough lessons for now my alcoholic brain needs a brake :pirate
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Yep, Nihilistic Existentalist Buddhism with a twist of Anarchy, as explained by Batman, translated into Swahili by a Kalahari Bushman and back into English by a drunken Australian channeling James Joyce. Perfectly clear.
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got evidence for that?:P
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Evidence is another very relative term. (This is so exciting! Interpersonal communication existentalism! It's an adjectival bonanza!)
My conclusion has been reached by reading your posts carefully, analysing what I think you think you mean, trying to phrase your meaning as I interpret it and being aware that when your ideas pass through my filter they may be subject to misrepresentation, and then, I respond in a deadly serious yet flippant way, because I'm perverse like that.
And because jc told me I'm not allowed to send people to the naughty mat when I'm annoyed with them any more.
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indeed
So my point is if you can't make a difference between things then you can't tell it's good bad misshapen goodshapen or whatever god or evil
it are eachothers counter pols one cannot do without the other
this has nothing to do with buddishm, at least i think so ;)
but enough lessons for now my alcoholic brain needs a brake :pirate
Just because you can't tell something is something (eg an act is good) doesn't mean the act ISN'T good anyhow.
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Good, evil, smart, dumb are all relative terms. It depends on your point of view - terrorist/freedom fighter is a good example.
The idea that there has to be an opposite to all things has been a handy device for TV shows and cartoons, but has the real world ever been that simple? I think growing up - whether it be the lightning strike or gradual dawning - is when you realise that there aren't simple answers anymore, and that you have to find a way to live between being helpless in the face of things you have no control over, and being responsible for them. (OMG, I just said something on-topic. Someone take a picture please.) That being said, "I don't want to grow up" by Tom Waits is still my favourite song.
Your american right? "being helpless in the face of things you have no control over" dude. beeing Mature is not accepting you dont have no control over situations. Mature people should always try to better the world for there own sake. (sadly sometimes people do this in a evil way, See Dick Cheeney)
But i compleetly agree that its cartoon thinking when it comes to counterparts need eachother.
I think Da Venom is trying to explain Nihilistic Existentalist Buddhism. It may be anarchic as well. When you think of it like that, it becomes much easier to understand.
:P then that would mean i got my name wrong...Gotta change it to RealisticDream or something.
PS: Anarchistic is living without rules but with morals and social understanding. (its the best way to live when you have a small groep of people, but the worst one when you got 5000000000 people.)
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What I was trying to say is that decisions are made over which you have no direct influence- e.g. the war in Iraq- and yet as part of "The Western civilizations" you are responsible, because your government said, "Yes, by jingo, count me in."
If at any time you think up a way for me to influence John Howard's decisions, please let me know straight away.
And no, I am not American. >:( Dude.
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no i ain't american
but tell me this then
if there is no difference what would it be called then?
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Something doesn't have to have a name to exist :P
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lol ofc ithas :) how else can it exist?
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What I was trying to say is that decisions are made over which you have no direct influence- e.g. the war in Iraq- and yet as part of "The Western civilizations" you are responsible, because your government said, "Yes, by jingo, count me in."
If at any time you think up a way for me to influence John Howard's decisions, please let me know straight away.
And no, I am not American. >:( Dude.
Sorry ill never insult you again ;D
And if i know a way to influence J. Howard then you'll be the first to know.
lol ofc ithas how else can it exist?
Well, oke. let me explain this with an example.
In 1600 to 18? we, the western people, had black slaves. Having slaves and allowing slaves just becouse they are black is racism right?
Well no, in those times it was conciderd normal to have slaves, for the simpel "FACT" that black people where not compleetly human.
Are they compleetly human? or not?
What i meen by this is that humans name things, actions and thoughts. if we did not know them, then they would still exist.
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Allow me to indulge in a vaguely sexist comparison that uses an overused joke as its premise.
On the one hand, we have men. They know roughly eight colours. Blue, red, green, orange, purple, and some others. Some colours that AREN'T in their spectrum are fuschia, olive, bohemian burgundy, and... uh, yeah, we'll go with those.
Anyways, in a civilization entirely made of men, they'd see fuschia (which for the purposes of this example I'm going to hope is vaguely pink), and they'd call it pink. If they saw a colour named PureEvil, they'd call it green. Or what if they didn't even know how to mix that colour of paint? They wouldn't call it anything. Doesn't mean PureEvil doesn't exist as a colour.
Now, the civilization of women knows all about all these various colours. Hell, they even know about taupe. So if a woman wanted to paint one of their rooms PureEvil, they'd know what it was, and every other woman that saw it would recognize it as such. A man that escaped from the zoo and hid in that room wouldn't have any idea what colour it was. Maybe he'd call it greenish-orangey-red.
Get it?
A talking dog might not have a word for good or evil, but if you explained to him how Gary Bettman and Bob Goodenow ruined everything for the Calgary Flames' next season and all their fans, it would probably say their actions have a painful smell to them, or something. A human, who knows how to describe evil, would call it evil.
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(Man, you know your colors ;D)
Anyway, what Ghrey said. That, and Orange doesn't need green to exist. They are independant of each other.
Another example: There's a girl standing in front of you but you don't know her name nor her nature (if she's a bitch or an idiot or whatever). She obviously still exists.
Interestly enough, Da, I did understand (albeit vaguely) what you said. I just hate it when people twist they [edit: the] words I've used - it's too easy. Did you understand what I was saying?
You use the term counter pol(e) - opposites, I assume. Good needs evil just as evil needs good.. and other intricacies that I'm not going to be able to relay coherently as I just woke up and have not had my 2 cups of coffee. ;)
The way I use :-yin is that you cannot know (understand, comprehend) one without the other. I believe that, but the argument I'm trying to make has nothing to do with that.
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well sorry for being vague then
;)
but making an example of humans is just mixing facts
well lemme think how to explain this :P
ah i got it :P
opinion counterpolls are needed too exist :P
it doesn't matter what but so long there are opinions, then there also must be counterpoll of good and bad etc.
for facts i tottaly agree with you
i've done my story :P happy now?:)
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in answer to the original question...............
i don't know, but i sure can try.
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i've done my story :P happy now?:)
No. You're still being vague. Brevity is not the key here, especially if you're trying to convince me. Just saying it over and over will not make it so. :-*
For facts you totally agree with me? You've lost me. Uhm.. ???
Do I have your use of 'counter poll' correct? Gah! Do you understand what I'm saying?
(let's see how many more times I can edit this before you reply ::))
And on another side note: By rotating the Sun chart and positioning the Winter Solstice at the bottom, it will look like this :-yin . [the actual image reverses light/dark for what it's worth.] The light color area which indicates more sunlight is called Yang (Sun). The dark color area has less sunlight (more moonlight) and is called Yin (Moon). Yang is like man. Yin is like woman. Yang wouldn't grow without Yin. Yin couldn't give birth without Yang. Yin is born (begins) at Summer Solstice and Yang is born (begins) at Winter Solstice. Therefore one little circle Yin is marked on the Summer Solstice position. Another little circle Yang is marked on the Winter Solstice position. These two little circles look like two fish eyes. In general, the Yin Yang symbol is a Chinese representation of the entire celestial phenomenon. It contains the cycle of Sun, four seasons, 24-Segment Chi, the foundation of the I-Ching and the Chinese calendar.
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being a human is just a fact
being good is an opinion
so when there are opinions
there is always 2 sides ;)
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that...doesn't follow, can you give a reason for there always being two sides? i admit i don't post much here, but i've been reading this topic through, and, i don't get it, stating something isn't debating it, it isn't proof, it's an opinion. so it's your opinion that opinions generate sides? can you, logically, explain it?
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Okay. Objective and abstract. We're talking about apples and oranges. This is good. ::)
I'll leave you with Sam because my brain just exploded. ;)
:-Zzz
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wow your frozen brain just exploded?
:P
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Ive stoped understanding this hours ago....
so when there are opinions
there is always 2 sides
da_venom
And euhm when it comes to opinions you can have million different ones. stop thinking so damn Black and white. the world dosnt work that way.
And i want to say just one thing. (i hope i can do this right, it slips my mind when i got brilliant awnsers)
Its a matter of how you look at something.
If you see Good and Evil as objects if the one would not exist then the other still would becouse they are things. and if you didnt know evil you would still know good becouse it still exist as object.
If you would look at it as a concept, like Time or so, then it would be a counterpart and not exist without the other one.
So its your choice on how to look at it.
I personaly dont believe in evil. Take saddam he has murderd hundreds. but is he evil? he treats his fammily quite well and has a few good personal friends. i dont believe someone can be evil. or a act can be evil.
but it got to go cya.
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well everyone has his point of view ;)
but i think were rather going off topic hehe
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you guys are strict about that round here? *shifty paranoid eyes* :o
depends how you define immaturity no? as someone who probably should, but is currently making no attempt to, be a bit more mature, i think i'm thoroughly unqualified to comment on the original subject. ;)
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Because I don't know how to let things lie.
Can't have one without the other? Electricity disagrees with you. You can have a negative charge without having a positive charge anywhere to counteract it. Or you can have a positive charge with no negative charge to counteract it.
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Can't have one without the other? Electricity disagrees with you. You can have a negative charge without having a positive charge anywhere to counteract it. Or you can have a positive charge with no negative charge to counteract it.
Partly true. but if you go look at the particals theory then its the otherway around. Opposites cant live WITH eachother.
if they thouch they go POOF and form pure energy(Launch a Positron against a Electron and see for you self :pirate). so this would compleetly destroy the hole good and evil theory.
and maby not. If you put good and evil in one room then they will also make alot of energy becouse they want to destroy eachother.....
oke this makes no sens. :( >:( :(
ill just shut up....im to immature.
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well if there wasn't immature how could you be mature?:P
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which is a bit differant from good or evil :P
maturity and immaturity are terms dependant on one another to provide their meaning, good and evil are seperate concepts.
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in what concept then?
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could you put your question a little more clearly, it's probably me being tired and it being late but i'm not sure i get what you mean :-\
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Well maturity is the absence of immaturity (um. Or possibly the other way around)
Good and evil aren't quite the same. since you don't usually grow up doing evil and then become good. Or the opposite.
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Good and evil aren't quite the same. since you don't usually grow up doing evil and then become good. Or the opposite.
Children are capable of "evil" acts, and in many ways it is part of the development process to learn from the consequences of our wrongs that help us develop into good or...whatever type individuals.
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hummm, yes, but good/evil is a bit cross ways to mature/immature, whereas mature/immature is (in theory) a gradual progression towards being a more reasonable *snorts* tolerant *snickers* and sensible *laughs outright* person, good and evil don't change, in the grand scale of things. genocide is bad when you're wee and bad when you're big ;)
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good and evil do change
just look at the crusaders from their side it was good they hunted down the protestants dunno how to name this in english
but the act itself was evil
just like america helped the europians in wo2 it was good they helped but evil they commited war:)
good and evil is relative and changes in your own opinion
and if your immature you don't know what is good and evil
and when your mature you know what is evi/goodl in your point of vieuw
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Are you even listening? Their example was that a five year old doesn't commit genocide, then when he's 10 he doesn't go around oppressing small African nations, and finally graduate to minor acts of murder and vandalism at 15, only to go out and do missionary work at 20.
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(that's why my brain exploded and I gave up. I think you're listening, Da, you're just not acknowledging it or anything else - and that is incredibly frustrating, to say the least.)
(Well.. I hope you're listening. You could, of course, just be trying to drive us insane. No two sides to that one, are there. ::))
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hehe :)
and i think a kid could do that ghrey
i mean how else can you get new recruits for war?
tell kids lies and they make it the truth
unles they are shown something else
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so, you're saying good and evil are human conceits? that they are what we want them to be? how does that connect to them being inseperable? if they are what we want them to be, then we just have to want them to not be inseperable surely?
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ofc it are human conceits :)
that's what makes us so social don't we?:)
animal's teach their puppets how they need to survive
human teach their children what's good or evil ;)
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cool, so, since we both accept that, which is fine, it's froody, i completely agree, but, again, what's to stop us deciding they aren't inseperable? human conceits, after all ???
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The rebels in war-torn countries get new recruits by a nasty, nasty cycle.
First the go to an institution of education. A school.
Then the shoot it up. They say you can join them, or you can have your hand cut off. They cut off your hand so you can't pull a trigger on them later on.
If you join (which most young, self-preserving children will do) they take a shank and put a knick in your head. Then they smear in a combination of gun powder, saliva, and cocaine. This drives the kid wonky.
They are then given a choice: they can rape their sister or kill their parents.
Then they burn down the school and ride off (with their new poor souls) to perpetuate their cycle of violence.
...
About good and evil:
Nope, not real. Humans, being social creatures, are somewhat genetically programmed to think that acts which aid other members of the species (/ group / family / etc.) are 'good' while acts which don't are 'bad' or 'evil.' (Think about it - how else could the early cavemen have survived? In an every-man-for-himself environment filled with harsh elements, nasty predators, no good self-defense mechanisms but a big brain, no one lasts long. Even the people smart and lucky enough to make it wouldn't get to reproduce, so their genetic material doesn't get perpetuated.)
As such, you then take what you've learnt (your own personal experience) and mix it with this subtle programming to build up your beliefs about 'good' and 'evil.'
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well the cavemen were learned to survive
human's are thought what is good and what is bad
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well, i have been immature for 52 years as of today. not quite forever, but getting closer.
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Happy Birthday melora! ;)
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Yes, happy birthday! And keep up the good work.
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Thanks !